INTERVIEW: Daniel Bacon - "I Want The World To See What I've Always Known"

What a privilege it was to interview the kind, humble and totally charismatic Daniel Bacon on his transition to becoming a man. 

Daniel tells his story of self recognition and challenging gender norms - just by being himself. 

Some Fact Checks/Clarifiers from our episode!

IVF and gender selection - gender selection for social reasons (family balancing)  is illegal in Australia and has been since 2004. However, for medical reasons this may be possible. Please seek out your local health professional for further advice

https://www.womenshealthmelbourne.com.au/blog/sex-selection-in-ivf

Egg harvesting and freezing - eggs can be frozen indefinitely without losing their quality. Although, in Australia, you may need to re-sign a consent form to continue to freeze at the 10 year mark under specific circumstances, which is the case in most Australian states. In Western Australia, egg freezing is capped at 15 years. 

https://www.ivf.com.au/treatments/fertility-preservation/egg-freezing

Follow us here!

https://www.instagram.com/fgsx_pod/

Email us here!

hello@fgsx.community 

Resources here!

https://www.transhub.org.au/

https://rainbowhealthaustralia.org.au/

https://www.tgv.org.au/

https://transcend.org.au/

https://qlife.org.au/

Clinical guidelines here!

https://auspath.org.au/

We are your co-hosts, Dr Shyamini and Nurse Ellie, and this, is For Goodness Sex xx

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, my name is Shamani, and I am a co-host of the podcast for Goodness Sex. I am a Fijian Indian woman of immigrant parents and am proud to live, work, and play on Wajapanyoungar Country. This podcast acknowledges the past, present, and future traditional custodians of stolen country and the impact this has had on the health and well-being of our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander brothers and sisters. Sovereignty was never ceded. Hi team.

SPEAKER_05 0:28

Now, whilst we are healthcare professionals, this episode is for informational purposes only, and it does not replace personalized healthcare advice. Your health is unique to you. If you have healthcare concerns, please seek out your local health professional. Nail it. Absolutely nailed. Thank you, baby.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

I wouldn't even been able to have a love so rich and deep if I didn't firstly show that to myself, but even like I said, accept myself and go through all of that. And then now it's just, you know, just like the softest, safest place to land.

SPEAKER_05 1:11

Hello and welcome back. We are your beloved co-hosts, Dr. Charmani and Nurse Ellie. And this is for goodness sakes. Ow, trickle, wow, wow, wow, wow. You may laugh. Just is deep breathing in the background. Just deep breathing. Crack on. Hi, so we have another very special episode today. We do. Because we have a very special guest with us. So my very good friend Dan Bacon. Hi, Dan. Hi Dan. Hello, hello. Thanks for having me. Oh my god, thank you for being here. Thanks so much for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

Truly.

SPEAKER_05 1:54

So Dan works as a mental health advocate. Leah using directly with those under the Mental Health Act. He has a passion for people and for improving the care that individuals receive when accessing mental health and alcohol and drug services. But most importantly, he is my friend. So thank you so much for being here today. Dan and I actually go way, way back. We've been friends. Yeah. We're just speaking about that, yeah. Yeah, pretty much for over 10 years. Wow. Yep. It's a long time. And let me tell you, Dan is a hoot and a holler. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

We've been an over 10 years, aren't you?

SPEAKER_05 2:30

Ten years of hoot and holler. We haven't had fun.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

There's been a few laughs. A couple giggles. To say the least.

SPEAKER_05 2:39

To say the least, absolutely. But I guess first off, I just want to ask you, Dan, how do you identify?

SPEAKER_02 2:45

So, yeah, I identify as a transgender male and pronouns he, him. Thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 2:51

And look, I believe that there's so much to you other than just being trans, and I kind of want to touch on it all today, if that's okay with you. Yeah, honestly. You said touch. It's not just me. We have to keep it in. We'll keep it in. It's okay when I say it. Sorry. So we vetoed touch because I believe. Because we could not stop saying it.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

And it's I think I say the words like reaching out, touch. It's all kind of.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

I just want to reach out on. Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

No, you can't. Oh, I was meaning to be general.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Oh, right. I was talking about a replacement. I was like, yeah, whatever. I'm picking what you're putting it down. That's fine. Oh, no.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Love the energy that doesn't take so much.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

It's all contextual.

SPEAKER_05 3:29

It's all contextual true. It works. Um so I was going to ask, and this my first question I actually wrote before I realized that your wife would be joining us tonight. Yay! Yay! Hi Emma. Thanks for being here. Um, but first I was gonna ask, how is married life treating you?

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Yeah, good, yeah. I would say the same answer even if she wasn't in the room. So, well, it's coming up to our first year wedding anniversary next weekend. Uh, and I remember them saying, like, the you know, this that first year's the hardest, and I was like really quite stressed about it. I was like, what's gonna happen in this first year? You know, like I was like, babe, like if something happens, are we just like talk it out and you know and I was just like waiting for like a you know cyclone or something. But it's um this weekend actually. Uh but no, it's been great. It's yeah, been amazing. So just feel like strength of strength, so feel very lucky. And we're kind of we didn't really get our full honeymoon, so we're actually kind of going away if everything goes to plan. Uh we can do our little trip then.

SPEAKER_04 4:30

So amazing.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Hopefully Srilanka and Maldives. Oh I know, you gotta just do it. We thought before kids, you know.

SPEAKER_05 4:38

Okay, we have so much to do. Okay, well, that's super exciting. Um, speaking of honeymoon, um how's how's honey?

SPEAKER_02 4:48

See what you did there. Yeah, that was clever. Yeah, nice. So yeah, honey's my dog. Our dog, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Oh cute. What kind of dog?

SPEAKER_02 4:57

So she's a miniature labradoodle.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Oh, I love labradoodles. Yeah. We've spoken about that on the pod about how much we love labradoodles.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Yeah, so it's it's good because I've always grown up with like labradoodles, bigger breeds, but just the shedding was too much. So you throw a poodle in there and Bob's your uncle, you know. Bob's your uncle. Yeah, so she's great, loves her runs, all the things. She's just the best, thriving. She, to be fair, she knew a chicken bone the other night and stressed me out.

SPEAKER_05 5:22

She's dangerous. So dangerous. But no, you know, she's good. Good. She's great. You've got to keep an eye on them. She's just the best. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

I feel everyone spies when they meet her. They're like, she's the best. And I'm like, right.

SPEAKER_05 5:31

I back this. I back this. I think she's the best. I literally put in my notes in brackets, allow significant time to discuss honey. Fair. So I'm glad we got that out of the way. Um and also, so you getting married is is fun and great, but also a bit different because in the past it's actually been you that's been the celebrant at some weddings. Is that right? I have married to this work.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Just on the technically, like I can marry people, yes. Like legally, I have to do that.

SPEAKER_05 5:58

Charming, this is our moment. Play the music theory.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Uh so yeah, technically I can. And it's something that I would like to look into, you know, because I love, love, and wet, and I'm just obsessed with just all of the that kind of good stuff. But I've just been really busy with all my other work, so it hasn't really allowed me to look into that more. But technically, yes, qualify have done it for a couple of people for years. So that's nice. It's nice to be a part of you know that moment, and really for me, it's all about them and just trying to create that picture of you know, representing them the best you can. So it's nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:26

That's beautiful. I can imagine you being the best star. So good. And I just want you to feel like them.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

It's like what I you know, I did drama in school, so I was like, whatever you want, I can bring it to you.

SPEAKER_06 6:35

Shock right.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

Thank God you're here, and we're gonna draw.

SPEAKER_05 6:44

No, you would be so good. So I'm gonna be honest here. I did have some words with your wife before this as well, when writing the personal bio just to help. Um don't don't worry about that. Don't worry about that. Um and she did add a couple of her own comments in there. Oh This is it. This is the one young. Um she did say that you've successfully completed some DIY home improvements this year.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Oh, successfully is a bit of a stretch, right?

SPEAKER_05 7:14

She said that you are a Facebook marketplace fanatic, but you need to cut down because the garage is full.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Yeah, and we have two garages. So one? Oh, yeah. Did you put that in on payment? I just saw myself.

SPEAKER_05 7:28

The garages are full, so that's an edit.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Yeah. Uh look, I'm good. You know, only it is a s it is a weird Is it weird, I don't know, gift that I can just if it's just like free.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Free stuff, aren't you? Like, okay. Like buy nothing, sell nothing? Are you on that? Or no?

SPEAKER_02 7:46

If I was on that, it'd be all over.

SPEAKER_05 7:48

They did six garages. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Yeah. So honestly, I could go around the house and be like, that was free. That was and it would do the things that would be you wouldn't expect.

SPEAKER_05 7:56

Yeah, right. Because is are you a homeowner now? Did you buy this house? Yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

So I was excited to just that's what recently I was put putting nails in walls and hanging up pictures. We've had the house for years, but it's never gone around to it. So but other things as well.

SPEAKER_05 8:08

Oh my god, no, that's huge. Honestly, in this climate, did you sell a kidney or what was it?

SPEAKER_02 8:13

I mean, there's other things that I've you know, but I'd put them on for a pretty penny, I tell you that. But um yeah. Nah, congrats, that's awesome. So yeah, that's been good. And I have cut back. I have cut back on the record.

SPEAKER_05 8:23

Emma's Emma's nodding, so he's describing it like an addiction.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

It used to be, look, I would have to like I'd go on and be like, well, what can I get? And then you could do that, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:31

But I I guess there's worse addictions that you can have. So Emma might disagree, but anyway.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

Oh my baby love this.

SPEAKER_05 8:40

Remember you love her. Okay, so you've clearly had quite a few different jobs and career paths uh over the years. But tell me a bit more about your role now as a mental health advocate.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

So, mental health advocate, I've just left that role. Okay. So I was doing this role for about that role for four years. Okay. It's a role really passionate about, still passionate about now, really see the importance to it, uh, to probably maybe just provide a little bit of context, because there's probably a lot of roles in mental health and a lot of roles as advocates. Specifically, my role as a mental health advocate was working with people who were placed under the Mental Health Act. So it's again a little bit of context for that. It's when someone has gone in for an assessment, been again being assessed by a treating psychiatrist, and then because of that uh they believe they've met certain criteria, which is looking around them having a mental illness, believing there's you know significant risk to themselves or other people, they don't have capacity to make treatment decisions, but they can't be treated in the community, but they can't be treated any less restrictively. So that the mental health acts put in place. WA is one of about the only states in Australia that you actually have the right to a mental health advocate. So essentially we would come in, make sure that they know their rights. Um and essentially our it was all based on their instruction. So it's all like if you if you if you want, if you want to help, I'm here to help however I can. And half that time was just kind of bridging those kind of gaps between treating team and I did not know that.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yeah, thank you. Like I never explained. The amount of times I've worked in this space and I had no idea that they existed. That's crazy. How how does a patient access a mental health advocate when they're formed or when they're put under the mental health?

SPEAKER_02 10:20

So when they are yeah made in voluntary, we do get notified because again, we are part of sort of such requirements. So we do get notified and an advocate will make contact for adults, which is a space I worked in within the first seven days. But again, if if we make contact and they say, Don't want anything to do with you, then I'm like, oh right, of course, absolutely, whatever you want. You know, so we work off that consent is key.

SPEAKER_06 10:40

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Uh and then we would sort of, depending on that, uh whether you re-engage and if they want to, and but if they're like, Yeah, absolutely, this is what I want, then we would just go from there. So there is that sort of initial contact, but again, it's always on their terms.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

And would you say more people will accept than not? Do you think? So, well, yeah, generally yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

It's really good. Yeah, I always had a lot of work. Um so in that sense, you know, always but again, it just depends on every individual. You might not, you know, how you engage with every advocate's different different. Yeah. Uh so and also just your experiences with engaging with services, because you might not like who I don't know who this individual is. Depending if you don't have trust within the system, all of that. Um and a lot of time people are like, well, how do I know? You know, even just let's say like an indigenous consumer, but how could do I know if I can trust you? And I'd say absolutely I said, No, you don't you don't? I'd be I'd be pretty direct. I'd say like you don't have to, and if you want to stop this conversation, I said I think trust is something to earn, and I can't do that like overnight. But if you give me the chance, like I just want to learn from you, how can I help you? It's all about your voice. And really that's as in the ad adult space, it was always pure advocacy. So it's always uh yeah amplifying their voice. So whatever they want is what I want, essentially, is how I would see it. And it's just trying to bridge that gap. And I remember uh initially doing the training for that, it one of the key messages that kind of stuck with me was suffering's only intolerable if you're doing it alone. And so as advocates, we could we don't make the treatment decisions, that's the treating psychiatrist and the clinical team. But you know, I could at least you know be there, I guess, and trying to try and help where we could. So yeah, love love the work, love working with the consumers, the clinicians at times could be a little bit harder, but um also some really great experiences too. But yeah, it's a very different role, not always understood, but um you know, great, great experiences with with yeah, great individuals. Yeah, love the work.

SPEAKER_05 12:31

God, what a service.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Yeah, what a service.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

I'm so glad I know it exists, and that's wonderful. And yeah, it is just for whatever reason. It's the service that I would be like if something ever happened to me or a loved one. I would want that to be available because otherwise it's potentially the Trinity and having all of the bare minimum of the remote.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Well, it's it's not that it's also that. It's just that when, as you said, that someone's been made involuntary, right? They're formed under the Mental Health Act. So their autonomy has gone. And so how do they know to advocate for themselves or how to even do that? So to have an external person that understands the system to advocate for them when they're in this incredibly vulnerable position is hugely rewarding. I think.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Yeah, definitely. And I just as as again, because we've we've navigated that before and we're we're aware of it and they know that we're completely on their side, you know, so we we make that very clear. So they so they know that we're in their corner, uh, which is which is which is great. And like I said, because a lot of people might not know their rights or not know how to even speak up to the treating if there's a bunch of doctors, it could be very confronting trying to then talk to them about. So yeah, to have that kind of support is yeah, it was always really, really great. And felt like was able to try to yeah, make a difference where where we could. And so it was sad to leave, but but a a a good thing in the end because I got another good opportunity to kind of come up. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:46

No, that's awesome. Like providing that service, I can't imagine how rewarding and challenging that would be. I like love also how when you spoke about being a celebrant and how like much you you enjoyed it because it was all about them, about the couple, and sort of like advocating in a way like for them and their love, and then in this role you've mentioned that again, where it's like it's about the client and I'm just there to support them. So it's like obviously a strong theme for you, which I love as well definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

It's a nice, yeah, little sort of connection to pick up on. I uh I think yeah, definitely that is the case. And wanting people to feel seen and heard and understood and like not alone, you know. I think that's really yeah, important. I think everyone deserves that. And so if you can help champion someone in whatever way you can celebrate their wins or you know, be there if they're having a really tough time, I think it's a it's a good thing to do as humans.

SPEAKER_05 14:34

Absolutely, absolutely. It's beautiful. Ah, so beautiful. And I can only imagine that it also would be challenging for yourself as well, right? It's quite heavy. There was a lot that you would see.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

You know, we would spend the most time with them, really. True. Like more than any doctor, more than any nurse. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:50

One-on-one.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

In again, these are people in the the high security page, you know. Um but again, it's uh I'd always just, you know, they're just people at the end of the day. So but again, you can see how a lot of people don't have you they come with different lenses and you know, perceptions and things, but they're just people at the end of the day, and just talking to them, it would really make a difference. So I bet. So little stories, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:12

Oh my god, I bet. I bet. Well, what are some things that like you've had to implement in like your life, right? To help like manage your mental health and to, you know, having to deal with quite this heavy, serious stuff. Is there things that you've had to do taking on this role to keep your mental health well? Good sound?

SPEAKER_02 15:31

No, definitely definitely. I'm a big believer that you can't that you need to be able to fill up your own cup, you know, if you're trying to then also help others, that otherwise it's just gonna be problematic and you're not gonna actually be able to help them because you're you're not gonna be alright within yourself.

SPEAKER_05 15:44

And it's so common in these kind of roles, right? In any of our roles, like health professionals, it's like compassion, fatigue, burnout. It's so common. Yeah, it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

So I think for me, what helped me is having really clear boundaries because obviously there is a wanting to do whatever I could to help them, like obviously wanting, you know what they want, I want, you know, trying to really encompass that. But having that we are not a crisis service. True. For us anyway. Because there are crisis. We were not a crisis service. Because I used to be, oh, if they're calling me at this time, I would take the call. My wife can attest to this because she'd be like, to be fair, she could, I this is all you know, and I'd be like, yep, and I'd be like, I could go in now, and she's like, Yo, you know, you know, but I would want to help, you know. But that was initially the adjusting to that. And then for me is because we wouldn't make treatment decisions. That was a very clear, so I wouldn't be then like I'm responsible for those, so I can say I can advocate. So my job is doing this. Have I raised this? Have I, you know, how can I support them in this? Once I've done that, I can't make the treatment decision. So there were limitations within our role. I can make sure their, you know, their rights are upheld and that they know their rights and we can explore different avenues, but there was that sort of limitation. So although there's I couldn't go further than that, so that kind of helped me not feeling like I need to do more, or like kind of you know how some people can get in that kind of fix you kind of or I need to be a hero kind of complex. I mean to save someone. I was never I never got to that point because I was never in that.

SPEAKER_05 17:03

You had to like stick to your lane, and you could like I guess delegate and and and refer on when needed.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Yeah, yeah, I guess compartmentalise a little bit of like I can help them as much in my role, but you know, that's I know I know my limitations and within within kind of the scope of that. And I guess, you know, they were still then with you know in a hospital, you know, so it's not they were still, you know, in a safe setting. So um yeah, I guess it's just knowing what the things you can and can't control.

SPEAKER_05 17:32

Hard though, right? Totally. Oh my gosh, those boundaries are so hard. Boundary setting is hard. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

But it would be also because you'd either work in the hospital or then really work from home. So then even you're doing everything at home, it's hard to then like blur those kind of lines with like how much am I working? True. Very detailed, lots and lots of things. True.

SPEAKER_05 17:49

They kind of all get rolled into one. So like I'm leaving at the office, I'm leaving at the door, I come home and I put my husband and dog father. Yeah, dog father. Dog dog. Dog father. I'm the dog father. Gum to me are my daughter's Yeah, I can imagine that would be hard. Yeah, it was.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Yeah, I think yeah, not having that boundary with you just had to work at home. So yeah, and I I think naturally overwork. Um probably unhealthy overwork, to be fair. Borderline unhealthy, I think, uh the work ethic, but that's probably from the I do it all the time.

SPEAKER_05 18:26

Okay, cool. And I do it all the time. I only have three jobs. So yeah, if you want to hear about um overcommitting. Overcommitting or talk to Shammy. Shami's got like seven jobs. Seven jobs and five extracurriculars. Yeah. So what's this new role then? If you can tell us, only if you can tell us, is it yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Yes, so new role, I can speak to it. Yeah, I can speak to it, but I just will keep it kind of a bit more vague in a sense. Uh, but it's working in the lived experience space, which I'm really excited about. And so it's like sort of my first designated role in that aspect. Obviously, having lived experience, it does it did allow me to do my mental health advocacy job and connect with people because there's just so much of that that you just have a connection with certain things that you can draw from, but you would never share that wouldn't be appropriate. Um and not that necessarily doing all of that in this current role, but it's again line to help people. So it's still obviously within the mental health sector, but it's uh trying to yeah, be a part of hopefully some systemic changes and ways to implement things to hopefully again help uh people accessing services, you know, whether that's so so the mental health sector or like mental health services or for alcohol and other drugs. So um I got really excited. And again, obviously for me just sort of the kind of lived experience sort of framework and what that encompasses is you know, a lot of values that I align with. So uh yeah, really excited to do that. And I guess the difference for me or how I sort of see it is my role as an advocate, although I loved it. I love being, you know, working with them so directly. But you're always sort of reacting, it's always sort of problem solving, you know, to kind of you're still in those the constraints and the struggles with the system itself. Okay. We're sort of in this role, hopefully in a position where able to hopefully implement some things and maybe trying to you know draw in to actually maybe yeah, have more systemic change and actually pre from a f preventative point of view, I guess, would be really um would be really great. And just to kind of again incorporate more of the human experience, you know, actually services there, not taking away obviously from clinical expertise, you know, that is so crucial, but it's also to hear from these individuals and and what and what's going on there and again it's so it's kind of more walking alongside, you know, and realizing that there is a lot of value that we can take from people's experiences and yeah, I guess sort of rather than doing forward, doing with or working with. So I think that's nice.

SPEAKER_05 20:42

Okay, amazing. I mean so less of like more of an ad ad advocate role and more like is it more like peer like that?

SPEAKER_02 20:49

So it is like a peer, so it's it's yeah, so it's like a yeah, it's in the peer workforce, or like a disperience peer workforce. Uh I'm not so much working directly with consumers face to face, so it's more but hopefully in a position where to implement more things.

SPEAKER_05 21:00

Nice. So rather than like putting out fires, you're like being proactive and you're hoping to actually implement structures to then the hopefully could resolve. Totally.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

So that's preventative care.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

That's what excites. Prevention is key. Prevent.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

I've only that's only it's super fresh, but hoping to it was exciting, and I'm yeah, hoping to be able to break out to that to the first thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

I think you'd be amazing. I think you'll be amazing too.

SPEAKER_05 21:41

Right, so I guess I want to go back to the start, Dan. Um, I guess I want to ask you so do you remember when you first started feeling that your gender didn't align with the one that was assigned to you at birth?

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Good question. I feel for me, and obviously I can only speak from my experience. I don't know that could be you know speaking the whole trans community, but it was it was always there. You know, it wasn't like it's there's always kind of this inherent knowing. I think looking back now, there's moments I can go, oh that was more pivotal, or I can really kind of see it come through there. But it was always it was always there. The same way I feel like if you identify as cisgender, you're not like, oh my seventh birthday, I was cisgender. Like it was always there, you know. So that's such a good point. Okay. I feel like I remember even just I grew up with Torter brothers and I was always like classic tomboy, and they were like, Oh, is this okay? Like, what was I grew up on a farm and they thought that's natural, but it was more than that, you know. Even my my brothers walking around with no short on shirt on, I would work around walk around with no shirt on. And it was again, it wasn't me being a tomboy, it was just like literally that was the same. And my mum would be like, You need to put a shirt on. And I'd be like, Why? Like I genuinely wouldn't get it, because I'd be like looking at him, looking at me like we're the same. Like I don't understand. And then she'd be like, No, you just have to, and I'd go, okay. So like things like that. Uh I remember even oh, it might have been like in primary school, so I think like 11 or 12. And someone was like, Oh, so if you could be a boy or a girl, like what would you want to be? And I so robustly, like not even, didn't even hesitate, was like, obviously a boy. Like we're all hating it, right? I genuinely thought that everyone was everyone felt the same way I did. I thought. Wow. Yeah, because you didn't talk about I thought it's like 50-50, you're either born a boy or a girl, and then like, oh, girl, unlucky, like, you're happy to say, ugh, like it's because they were like doing in a and like whatever. And then so when they asked this question, I was like, that's such a dumb question. Like, okay, no questions, get it. But like I was like, that's silly, but came out so robustly. And then after everyone was like, and then went around the circle because it was like primary school sitting in a circle, and was like, no, I'd actually, um, I actually like being a girl. And they all said it every single and I was like You're like liars, the bunch of you liars. I was shocked.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

I was like today's the day I realized I was alone. Yeah. No, but literally I was in like in my view of this.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

No, no, but no, no, literally, that was the day. I was like, oh, like they don't wish that they were a boy. They actually uh not only don't wish they were, they're actually happy being a girl.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

And I was there like, oh, you are different. Like that was so I did. So it was like a really like, oh, like this isn't this isn't a shared feeling. And so there was that much, and so there are moments like that throughout that I can like look back on and reflect and go, okay, but it was always there. It wasn't never, you know, and again, I would just probably that would sort of what I'd relate it to. Like if you have always been cisgendered, you always know that. It's like inherent knowing.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

This might be a bit of an existential question, but I sometimes ask, you know, my patients, this is like, you know how you've always known, but like what does what did it feel like? Like was there, you know, you say you always know, like was there anything physical, it's like discomfort, like I don't know, it might be a bit of an existential question, I suppose, in terms of what that actually looks like for you in terms of always knowing.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

No, no, no. I I understand what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Uh because I guess I never had like maybe it's that because I never had cognitive thought that I was like a woman, an assistant woman. Like that's how I thought I was always was, right? But it wasn't a conscious thought. Are you saying it was just an unconscious thought that you always knew, or was there a physical probably not a asking this very well, but I don't know if you'd get what I'm putting down. I understand what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

The same way that it wasn't like an unconscious thought you'd you know, because you didn't have to question it, it was right. It always felt that yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes. It always felt natural to me, and the only real I the way I realized I wasn't was society telling me that you're a girl. And so then I was like, oh. So again, so the again when it wasn't me next to my brother, it wasn't because like, ah, just like I'm a bit tomboy. It was like I generally would be next to him and it was like, but I don't know why I have to wear the shirt. Like, because he's Oh wow. And then you're saying it's well, because he's a boy, and I was like, but I'm a boy, like I didn't, you know. So then I was then there was very like, you're a girl, you're a girl, and then you're kind of just really confused because then in a way it just feels like I didn't have that connection to my body, you know, so I didn't have okay. So then it's kind of you know, but you gotta work with the you know, literally like it's there, it's um can't do much about that, you know. So then you work with the evidence, I was logical, I was like, okay, well, you know, one plus one, you know, we're figuring it out. Like this is and I didn't know obviously the transgender even was a thing. So I was like, this, and that's why I was like, it's just one of the lottery things, and like you're just stuck with this, and it's what you gotta do and make the best of it. Um, but it was yeah, kind of, yeah, just really not feeling like at home within your body, I guess. Or just feeling like it was somebody else, you know, kind of like, yeah, this for he can come in with certain, you know, things, and so yeah, it's kind of like you're just r renting the space or something. I don't know, you just don't have the connection of feeling that, yeah. Or feeling like your kind of your body's betrayed you.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

I remember feeling that sometimes just feeling like oh like because you feel like you thought you were something and then your body's not reflecting what you had always believed.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Yeah, it's like, oh why'd you do me like that? Wow. Rude. Um, but you know turns out transgender, it's a thing.

SPEAKER_05 27:27

So that's so interesting where like you're like people kept saying it just in gender in general, right? Where it's like it is something that we define, right? But just having someone being like, no, you're a girl, you're a girl, you're a girl, and you just be like, Well, I'm a boy, like I know it, you know, that's all how you always felt about having having someone tell you, no, you're a girl, you know, and like trying to decipher what that means, right? Like, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Like, I can't it's quite invalidating, isn't it? Yeah, it's usually invalidating when you're like, no, I feel like this, but it's like, no, but you're this. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

It's um and it's insistent, it's just like it's just like constantly and again, like and like no fault on their behalf, because you know, they're just that's all I've done.

SPEAKER_05 28:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

So yeah, so I understand, but it's and that's why, yeah, the journey is so wild to think about. Um so I don't remember at the start you sort of mentioned like, you know, when someone's transgender, but it's not the whole thing, and I agree with that because it's like it's one aspect to me. You know, I've always for me, it's like I've always been Dan. So it's like yes, I'm transgender, but I'm also just Dan. Like that's just one component. So I think it's important to see more than that. It's just like see the human, you know, like it's but I think the the process of tr like knowing who you are and then aware, like actively making the decision to pursue that when your whole life you've been told another way. And then knowing that by doing that you can literally lose everything that you've ever known, ever like you have to just throw caution to the fucking can we swear on this thing? Yes, please, please, please like the the fucking wind. Um and just to be like and make that dedication that choice because it's like I'm gonna choose me, I'm gonna, you know, I've if it means losing everything else, I'm not gonna lose myself. And so that, you know, is such a a big thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Putting yourself first is a huge decision in this society in general, I think. You know, that's particularly as such a giving person as well, that you've demonstrated already that that's quite a hard thing to navigate.

SPEAKER_05 29:31

We're we're taught not to, right? It's like Well, especially being raised as a as a female in the middle of the day. She's so selfless, she's so selfless, she's so selfless as if it's a don't make a noise over there in the world. And it's like, okay, so me having yeah, no sense of putting everyone myself is something that's to be admired. Crazy. So yeah, so yeah, huge, huge achievement.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah. It doesn't feel like something when I talk about it, it doesn't feel like something I've done. Like I can I wouldn't really be like, oh yeah, I just, you know what I did to the thing I've been doing. If I'm like, but they've done that and that's amazing. Yeah, but so it doesn't that bit kind of still feels surreal to me.

SPEAKER_05 30:12

Like I'm Well, I guess because you're just being right, that you're just existing, true. Obviously, it's it's it's it's obviously it's been a really hard and it's a journey, but um it's also you've just been as you said, you've always been Dan. Yeah. True.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Yeah, so it's just again, just finding that alignment or just being able to, you know, let the world see what I've always known.

SPEAKER_05 30:29

So yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Let the world see what I've always known.

SPEAKER_05 30:34

That's beautiful. I like that a lot. Yeah, I love the way you answered that question. I've like never heard anyone answer a question that way. Yeah, that was incredible. Gorgeous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Um so then do you remember like who was the first person that you've obviously primary school? You said, duh, I want to be a boy. But after that later, do you remember that went wrong? I feel it even now. And then I was silent for 10 years.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

20 years ago.

SPEAKER_05 31:02

Yeah, do you remember the first conversation you had um about how you were feeling in terms of your gender and who was that with?

SPEAKER_02 31:09

So again, with that, my introduction to even, I guess, being part of the queer community for that to even come about was me like learning or like recognizing that I liked women. Because again, I went to a Christian school, so there was not even talk about any of that. So I was like, classic, got close to best friends at times, then realised you're in love with them. So yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're like, why am I heartbroken? What the heck? And then you're like, oh wait, I think I like actually like them. So that's a whole journey. Yeah. Uh and then again at the time being like, well, I like a girl, but I have this part, so I must be a lesbian. I was like, never mind. Once again, one plus monocle. I was like, that's not what that is. Yeah. And it's a sin. Yeah, I mean, I was like, whatever to say, I'll go. But yeah, no, no. But uh. But yes, but then I remember when I told my brother, so like me and him super close and he is gay, and I was even when I told him to be fair, I was like, you know how you like I was so nervous. I was like, you know how you like boys? And he's like, yeah. I was like, like well, like uh I like I like girls, but like I'm the boy, but I like but I like girls, but like the way you'd like boys, but I like girls, and like so technically like I'm a girl, so like I like so like I'm a lesbian. And he was like, and then um it was like woo, all right, we'll go into the car. He was like, oh yeah, it's excited to take you out club in England and like that was it. My back performance.

SPEAKER_05 32:46

The lesbian corner is it's the lesbian corner. That's where we that's where we had some fun. Yeah, was it the lesbian corner?

SPEAKER_01 32:53

I don't think I've ever seen the lesbian corner at the corner.

SPEAKER_05 32:55

I don't think it exists anymore. Maybe. This was again, this is like twelve years ago, isn't it? And it was it wasn't like I think it was just the lesbian corner, we just coined it that because it was the smoking. It was the smoking area.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Well, there's a connection, you know? And to be fair smoking Yeah to be fair, I didn't smoke, so I would just walk past it. I would mostly just be shaking my non-existent ass on the floor and then just like come back every now and again.

SPEAKER_05 33:16

But yeah, it's where it's where we we all gathered. Gathered.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Yeah. So But even then didn't register that I was because I didn't know what trans was, even then I didn't know. And so then it was only really my first girlfriend who, after a little while of dating, was like, Do you know what transgender is? And I was like, what is these words you're saying? And it was like, it's this is a definition.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

And I was like, holy wow shit, that's literally me.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

She was like, I didn't want to say it, but this is if you if you want to take it what you will. And I was like, Oh, and then there was still a bit of process, and then I was like, but I can't do that.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Like, I can't, that's gonna Wow, what a transformative conversation for you.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Yeah, I mean, all fun fact, forgot to say, I was designed to be a girl.

SPEAKER_05 33:59

I forgot this is a brilliant tidbit.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

So wait, hang on. But I was So there was that pressure. I remember thinking, like, so I was a test chip because I had my parents are too older boys and they really wanted a girl. Oh, okay. And they couldn't, they were in they were so convinced Matt was a girl, but you know. Well Mom's like, Matt's my girl now. Matt's like, no, I'm not. But like he's like, but I will, it's fine. I'll take it, I'll take it, I'll take it. I'm like, thanks, baby. Uh so yeah, so then I was designed. So then I was a test tube baby, and they took me up and did all the things and then just to get the result. So then I was like, but they designed me, so I can't like they'll be so annoyed. Like they went through this whole process.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

So I kind of we we don't select, we can't. This is like total side note, but we should not be sexually. Okay, can we? You can. Okay. No, no, they did, they did. I know, I know, but they did. I don't think we're allowed to in Australia. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Back in the day?

SPEAKER_01 34:58

No, you can't. It's illegal. When you when you do this is gonna be sorry, when you do IVF, when you do IVF, you you cannot select as like sex male or female. It's illegal to select that in Australia. That's what I've always been told.

SPEAKER_05 35:18

Did they just do IVF in hope for a girl? They like said that they did the things to like be more favorable.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

What does that even mean? It was it was on the phone.

SPEAKER_05 35:27

Okay, we're gonna call them. We're gonna call them and then let's actually go to the phone. Let's move on. Regardless of whether your parents are criminals or not, this is what you were going. They're definitely criminals. Story checks out, yeah. This is what you were told. This is what you've told your whole life. So that's what I'm saying. And this was before I even told them I was trans.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

They like were like, we designed you to be a girl before I even true.

SPEAKER_05 35:54

So it wasn't even in the it wasn't even This was before I was even like, Oh, I'm trans.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

This was like I got told this from a young age.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

That feels unfair.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Yeah, and this is before they knew. So, like, imagine me holding that in, and I was like, oh my god, like, how much money do they spend on that? I don't know. I was like, and then they're gonna be so angry because I'm like, fuck you, science, like that. But then there was still the whole kind of like back and forth, like, can I ever do that? Is that something you do? You've never seen it before, what does that entail? Like, all of these, who's gonna, you know, what would this look like? And I'm like, yeah, I said you can lose everyone and all of these things. And so it was stressful. Um, and it took me a little bit, and to be honest, after that point, I think I did actually go to speak to my brother, who we're really close. And I wasn't sure if I was gonna say this because he actually cannot remember this conversation at all. So like I do not hold it against him. I think he was having maybe boy troubles at the time. So he was like, you know, but I think I said like, oh I've just read up about this, and um, you know, like just trying to because he knew, you know, so I was like, Oh, you know, maybe for him to and he was like, What? Like, no, and you know, but I don't even think he was maybe like realizing. So then I was like, oh, he's no, so I'm not, I can't, you know.

SPEAKER_05 37:01

So you brought it up that maybe being transversal because he's part of the LGBTIQ community, and you thought maybe he had some info. But even then it's like back on it back It's a while ago, yeah. It was a while ago.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Yeah of not making any inferences in your age, yeah. Not amazing and youthful, or not no, but like over ten years.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Oh yeah, that's that's a long time ago, but then again, I the only reason why I bring that up is because you know, Matt was sort of the closest person and I was looking for that for validation, but for me or for anyone, if you're out there, like you would know within yourself. So I think that's like the message that I take home is like I did know, and I just needed to be, I needed to stand strong in that. And so and I did because I came back around and was like, okay, yeah, I'm yeah, this is it. Like it was like this is I can't, like this is and then he was like, Oh my god, I completely you know, so then when he was like, and then I told him, I was like, Oh, I mentioned it before, he was like, What? No, you did it, and I was like, I literally did that's okay. So, and then he's been my biggest like advocate since, you know, so he was then so supportive um through everything, um, especially in the initial stages, like when I told my parents um that was a little bit challenging. Um and he was yeah, he was really good then. Um but yeah, they had a response. They had a response. I mean I will say it, I will say because I think it's important to I'm gonna I know I'm gonna say it because we're sharing I'm comfortable because I think it's a good kind of maybe like a reflection of what it what it can be like. You know, and again, this is not even you know, there's so many other experiences that can be so much more challenging. But when I sat down and I told my when I told my parents, the first thing my mum said to me was, Who's gonna love you? And the first thing my dad said to me was, You'll never be a boy. Fuck And then and I sat across the table from them and I started taking a deep breath, and I was just like, I could see that they were confused. I could see that they were scared and I could see that they were thinking that this is not the life that we wanted for you in a sense of purely like we don't want you to go through this hardship. Like I could already see my dad was stressing about me going into men's toilets. Like he was just like and so they were like, this can't, you know, you can't even decide what you want to do at uni. How can you decide this? Kind of like that was the next coming into the conversation. And I was like trying to tell my dad, like you you're asking me that, but like I don't you're asking me or this person wants to do it. That person doesn't exist. Like that person, like that's why I can't I can't see a future for this person. So it's been a really challenging time to see that. And so I was steadfast in that, and then Matt was that you know, he came in strong. I don't know if I don't I don't necessarily share all the things that he was saying, but he was a great you know, support in that of just being like that this is about Dan being happy. This is about him being able to be authentic and like you want Dan to be happy, like this is that's this is the key. Like what you knew before, that's not him happy. Like this is and so they were still very like mmm, we don't know about this, mm-hmm. And I literally said, Well, I'm just gonna show you that it's the same person, you just you we're using a different name, that I'm the same person. And so I I think like every week I showed up and just to dinner, and I wouldn't usually go that often, but because I lived out at home, um just to sit, you know, through that and just to show them that I'm still the exact same person and went through that, but it you know, and they were able to see that and we worked through that, and my parents now, and I that's why I can say it, is because they are literally the biggest believers. Like you were always meant to be this way, yeah, you're so happy, I can't believe it.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

So that's why I can you know because everyone's entitled to their own journey of realization as well.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

Of course, and they had to grieve there was a grieving process, of course. Of course, yeah. So there is all of that.

SPEAKER_05 40:40

Um And it's never like it's it's not malicious, you know. Obviously, sometimes you can hear that out of context, and you know, and there are obviously some parents that might uh you know do react and you know not everyone has the the tools to say things and do things in ways that are completely sensitive and appropriate. So yeah, I was just saying like at that time we were only just learning about what it meant, you know. So there's so much learning for them, um, you know, to as well, and learning and unlearning. And I think you're so right in saying like teaching by doing, right, by being, almost right. It's like you just showing up and being yourself and showing them how how happy, you know, you were like on this journey on this path. That's the best teacher of all.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

And probably just existing, like not needing to defend or j uh justify just being in your own space and in your own body in the way that you're comfortable, and not really having to explain anything just shows that you're unfazed. It's almost like the you know, um the bullying mentality, you know, not being wavered by bullies kind of disarms them in a way too.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Yeah, I think that was they were thinking that if I did this transition, everything's gonna change. Yeah, yeah. And my big thing was like, no, it's yeah, like it's not. So and then they saw that, but I also, you know, recognize that not everyone can do that. And you know, some people like that it would not be a safe space and they can't do that, and that's not appropriate to stay around or put yourself in those situations. So I'm not promoting that. That's just part of my journey, and and it was still hard, like it was hard than going into that space and then and then still, you know, intentionally at the time, you know, doing that or saying things, and and it wasn't easy hearing it even initially. But um, you know, I kept Michael, Matt did not be in physical. He was like, What are you hate? But um but bless him, no, he's he's been great, and like I said, it's been really lovely to have that journey and have it in my life and go through that, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:25

Yeah, that you had Matt there, you two have like such a special bond. The both of you, it's so so special. I really want to and I do really want to touch on that. But I also just also want to touch on saying touch so much. I'm just touching it. I'm just touching this episode. Um I feel touched. Just go sorry. No, I think I just also like have noted like um the pressure. Like obviously you're sharing your experience, which thank you so much. Like love hearing it. Um but there's just a like a few things that you said that makes me realise that like how difficult sometimes it is to speak about your experience without feeling like people are then gonna judge your entire community on what you've said. Does that make sense? Like feeling the weight of that, like where like is um it's kind of a lot of pressure sometimes, right? Like, I don't know, I feel that sometimes in the queer community where like, and you've been saying, you know, I don't want to speak for everyone in the in the trans community, but does does that sort of play on you sometimes as well? Like where you feel like some you know, you have to sometimes be cautious about how you present, like in settings like this where you feel like you're carried that you're representing the whole community?

SPEAKER_02 43:33

I think generally no, because I'm just like I'm me, and like I feel very the place I meet with myself is of I'm very content and happy, and I am me, and it is it is what it is, like it is what it is. But I guess it's more probably in situations that are uh recorded going. That it's I don't want to then be, you know, kind of something taken or it's my experience, but I don't And because I don't want then, you know. I heard someone say this about, you know, their trans experience and then that's your experience. What? And then it's like, I never said that. So I don't want that. So that's why I'm kind of prefacing it like that, because it's I want it's everyone is an individual. So like I I guess I'm saying it like that because it's so different, and even my you know, my experience would be so different from the next trans person. So there might be, you know, similarities or ties, but you just never know.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

I guess it's also that like, and you touched on this earlier, about how um and like we see this in a lot of different roles or identities, and like just putting my medical hat on, you know, when we refer to people as like, oh, this this diabetic or this this patient with this, it's it's that we um are identifying them based on an an isolated part of them as a person. So, you know, you coming into the spaces that you exist in, yes, you're a trans person, but you're just first and foremost a person that exists. And so these um these pressures to I guess to to represent can be like quite complex because I guess in a way you're already othered or society has already othered you, then you feel this obligation to then be like, well, I'm a trans person, and that's how I'm going to sort of get things out there. But you've you've clearly identified at the beginning, you always knew that you were a man, full stop. So I guess having that um like I I think that's what that's where sometimes I I mean I also struggle a little bit with being a woman of colour and like what that means. And so um I guess feeling that representation, it just feels like maybe you'd always identify as a man, so maybe that pressure just or that that ideology of needing to represent an entire community has never really been there.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

So yeah, I get what you're saying. Like I do like it's yeah, it has always been there, so I don't I think more because I'm comfortable with myself that I don't feel that pressure, but in a way I do because also but only from a place of because we're a minority. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Because of where because of where it is and you know I I remember thinking, oh I wouldn't you know three years ago, it was probably initially transitioning, I would have never thought I'd done something like this because like you know, safety risks get you know, just like that alone uh would be terrifying. But the reason why Yeah, I'm like, yeah, I want to travel now is because I don't know, I w I want the world to be better. I want things to improve and you know, it's always oh you know, I d that so someone coming after me that it it wouldn't have to be this way or as hard or for whatever reason and it's it's always good to to want that and to but then Do you feel the weight of it though?

SPEAKER_01 46:31

I think is what we were saying before, I guess. Do you feel this huge sense of obligation to do so?

SPEAKER_02 46:37

Not a huge sense, but I do now want to play my part before I was happy to sit back, but now I'm like how do we ever know if it's gonna move in that direction if I if I'm not even gonna try? So I that's kind of why I want to step in a bit more and just try to show up in that way. And I think representation is huge.

SPEAKER_05 46:50

Yeah, absolutely. And that's yeah, that's actually like when I reached out to you, that's what you said. You're like, I've been wanting to actually do a bit more to like be involved in community and like represent. So, yeah, that's what's okay. Um I want to get into obviously your journey through starting to be and things like that, but I know that there was a process you went through before that um in terms of freezing your eggs. Can you tell us about that?

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Yeah, so that's something that definitely comes up when you're about to start testosterone, they give you that option. Uh, but prior to them even saying anything, I'd already considered it, uh, particularly because me and my brother, who I mentioned before, were really close, and when we were younger and we realized that, you know, he couldn't have you know conceived babies the natural way, and neither could I, we sort of had this like light bulb moment, and we were like, we can switch. And then it was like, You're having kids with your brother? I was like, no, that's so weird. So it was we made an agreement, we were like my eggs with his partner's sperm, and then his sperm with my partner's egg. And then people thought that's a bit weird. And for me, I was like, Well, I'm never gonna love a man, you know. Um, so and that's like really the closest thing to my genetic. So it's like the love of my life with the man love of my life. Like that's pretty sweet to me. Beautiful, yeah. So I was like, makes sense. Take the wind where you get it. So I was stoked with that. So then obviously, when I was like, I'm gonna transition, my brother was like, I said, Oh, for the eggs, we gotta do the and he's like, No, we have to start testosterone, and then you can't get the eggs. And I was like, we do the eggs first. So um yeah, that was important for me because I, you know, kind of put more my foot down because that was for him to be a d you know, a father, so it was really and he's gonna be, you know, a great dad. So uh I had to go through that process, obviously the expenses of it all, and then actually then doing the process, awful. So awful. Um I had socially tried like had come out as Daniel. Yeah. So then that was also like wouldn't not really have been passing at all. But socially as Daniel and then doing going into all the fertility clinics and then getting all the invasive and awful and how traumatic that was. I mean, I was getting hormones, but the wrong kind, I tell ya.

SPEAKER_05 49:02

Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, it was it was what a process. Yeah, it was rough. And how old were you at this point?

SPEAKER_02 49:10

I was twenty. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was 20 at this time. So then we did it. Um, got bacon in the freezer, and then bacon.

SPEAKER_05 49:24

Bacon in the freezer.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

In my head, I'm just like imagining some random person's like chest freezer at the back, and they're just like Yeah, the bacon's not back. So, and then we've Yeah, done that, kept going with that. But then I could obviously start the um testosterone there. And even with that process, that is still, you know, you go through the GP and then you have to go through like a referral to your psychologist, and they have to like sign off to like, do you really want to be a boy? And how do you know? And all of those things.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

And this is not the case anymore. Yeah, which is lovely. Yeah, yeah, which is great. Love that. Yes, yeah. Well, I think we we touched on it with Naia as well, because Naya was the same. She had to go through the this psychological evaluation to say, are you sure? Um, but now it's just a what we call an informed consent model where we basically will um provide all the risks and benefits and the anticipated outcomes based on the treatment options. And then if we we believe, and well everybody believes that you're of sound mind and have the capacity to make the decision, then the decision is yours.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Oh, lovely. That is nice. I even one of the sessions I was like, I'm gonna bring my mum in because she needs to just quickly get a little session in here. Absolutely. So that was good, you know. Two for one. Yeah, and then even I was like, oh, trying to get, I was like, as soon as I finish this egg harvesting, I want to start test altogether straight away because I was already had delayed the process. I tried to go to this other random appointment to try to speed the process up. She was like, No, you just go to an endo, you're fine. I was like, why am I spending $400 here for this? And then but it's so many different appointments, all expensive.

SPEAKER_05 50:46

Yeah, so many barriers.

SPEAKER_02 50:47

Then go through that, then the endo of endocrinologist, and then from there they're like, Yep, sweet, you can get the tea. And then was stoked with that.

SPEAKER_05 50:55

How long did that process take, do you think, roughly?

SPEAKER_02 50:57

I know that's hard to uh I mean because there was the delay with like the egg half harvesting, so I'd already really kind of gone through all like the psychology and all through that, the back and forth, that they were already aware of the decision. So I'd done a lot of that that legwork kind of over six months. Um so yeah, it was quite quick for me, but I guess you'd still have to go through all of that. So I'd say like the shortest I could have done it back then would have been like within two months, maybe. I don't know, depending on when you get appointments, though, because then endos often take six months. But the delay was more around the egg harvesting because you had to get the funds for that and then all of those stuff and then the process. So uh but then I got testosterone and that was good, and then started that, and then I just went through puberty a second time, and it was good for me the first time to be fair. So then all my friends quite enjoyed it. I remember someone I went to high school with was like, I got getting pimples, and I'd never had pimples in my life. So I was like, What is this? And she was like, Your skin was perfect in school. So she was very happy about it. I was like, don't look happy about it.

SPEAKER_05 51:52

I was like, oh that's tear revenge.

SPEAKER_02 51:54

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:55

So um no, but it was great. So there obviously would have been like there are obviously a lot of physical changes that occur, but do you notice any also like emotional, like psychosocial changes as well, you know? But like I know you've always felt like a boy, but yeah, did you notice anything else?

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Oh, literally couldn't cry. Interesting, could not cry, and I was never like huge, like I'm way more of a cry now, but I was never huge, but I remember just feeling like anything, like I just felt like wow. So oh, I would try. Like for it was months and months and months, and I was like, I don't remember the first time I even just got one tear out. I was like, oh, like it was amazing, but um yeah, yeah, it was odd. So then like boys don't cry. I'm like, they're actually not tough, they just can't.

SPEAKER_05 52:36

We wanted to, we're trying, yeah. And then I watched the notebook six times. Oh honestly, they would have done it, they would have done it before.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

Um but yeah, and then obviously just kind of things like libido, like a bit of anger kind of stuff come up, but also for me it was more of a probably in that sense overcompensating or for that. You had to prove yourself. So I remember initially being like, I had to feel you know a bit more, and it was my brother being like, Dan, what are you doing? Just chill out. He was like, you know what, like you're not addicted. Yeah. And I'm like, noted, yeah. You're so right, you're so right, you're so right, you're so right. I was like, what was I doing? Oh my god. Who was that? You know, so um, and I have noticed that even with other, you know, people who've like transitioned, um, and I've like had the same conversation with them as like, and it's not from an ill-intentioned place, it's like I I I know you. Like, you don't have to be this perception of what you think a man is. Like you you can be a man and you can have sensitivity, you can be a man and you can be kind, and you don't have to, you know, not care and treat people badly and be selfish to be a man. I mean mostly inherently major. But you know what I mean? Like, no, it's such a good. There is room. You know, it doesn't have to be like it's important to be. The whole point is being who you are. Yes. So then why like you can't do it?

SPEAKER_05 53:50

lose yourself in your own.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

This is yeah, but you're gonna trip up at the end of the race? Are you serious? So you think a part of it was the hormones, but then the other part of it was like society.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

Then like trying to be like, what does society think of a man? And now it's like it's like the opposite of what like society was telling me women all the time, and now you're like, what was what I gotta do to be a man and then trying to like walk lower and it's yeah, wow. So then that was very interesting. So that was yeah, I remember I remember doing that, and then yeah, he shook me a little bit. But and so then I was like woke up from that and that was good. And then I guess yeah, stepped into really the most authentic part of myself. And so again, a really part of like emotional and all of that is just really actually having that recognition. Like I can't even explain that happiness. Like it's just can't even explain it. So it was but yeah, just huge and yeah, I guess just yeah, feeling seen, feeling understood. Um not realizing just like how much you were never understood, and how much you always, you know, felt alone in a way because there was this huge, you know, I feel like everyone always felt so close to me growing up, but I never really always would feel that back because I was like there was so much of them they didn't know or didn't see, so it felt hard to have that. It always kind of felt one-sided. So feeling like I could really let people win and like just like as if I was like letting the sun come on me for the first time.

SPEAKER_05 55:04

So it was like um it was warm and and and really good and just yeah, it was received well and like having those authentic connections because you're finally in a place where you're authentically you, right? So it's like being able to afford those connections. Because true, like it's so hard to do that when you're not feeling authentic.

SPEAKER_02 55:22

Yeah, it's like they're like, I love you, and you're like, but you're not even loving me. Yeah, you don't know. I mean like you're loving this version that it's like so you would never really feel like genuine in that sense.

SPEAKER_05 55:30

So and so how do you feel now? I guess 10 years, 12 years down the track.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Yeah, so like it's yeah, it's it's it is wild, honestly, but like yeah, just amazing. Like I can't believe the life I do have. Yeah, you know, um, especially just to thinking what it was like being like didn't even know what it was, didn't even know there was this world out there, and then being where I'm at now, like so happy in myself, like doing all that work, like there was a lot of work. We did it, we did a lot of work. Um but you gotta do it. You gotta do it. That's the most important work you can do. Like if it's not like if it's not to you, then like honestly, like that is the most important work. So then you course you can show it better for everyone else. But um, and then it allowed me to like in a way, like literally have the life I've always wanted. And like again, even just like with I'm not gonna try to get emotional, yeah. Um But yeah, just even with like then obviously like falling in love with like am I like love my life, but um you know, and allowing that even in, you know, um, and I wouldn't even been able to have a love so rich and deep if I didn't personally show that to myself, but even like said accept myself and go through all of that, and then now it's just you know, just like the softest, safest place to land. So it's just um really that's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 56:38

Stoked, stoked, yeah. I'm stoked for you. Thank you so much for showing me. I didn't cry in that. I was like you did very well. Is it because of the testosterone?

SPEAKER_01 56:47

Honestly. But it not tea. T is not for tears. Yeah, that is the yeah. No more tears.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

Yeah, we'll call it NT, no tears. Like it like stops. I feel like it was probably like after the first like year, and then you kind of like regular. And so now I can we're crying. We're crying. But again, I'm more like in touch, you know, even with that.

SPEAKER_05 57:07

So, Shamani, is there anything that you wanted to add about accessing the healthcare?

SPEAKER_01 57:13

Oh yeah, I actually just like as a clinician that sort of practices in this area, do you mind just Yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

Go, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

Touching on um just because I love medicine, laws and science. Um, just like what kind how was your tea, what kind it was, were you on any other medications, have you gone through any s surgeries, I guess? Or has there been any like speech pathology or that sort of stuff? Like could you just run us through some of the medical interventions that you've had in your transition?

SPEAKER_02 57:40

Yes, yes. I'm trying to think initially I think I was on like a primo test. It was like the three-weekly needle. Sure. Yep. Uh and then after a while of that, then you can go to the three-monthly one. And I think that was just always went to Rheandron. Yep. That's what I'm on now anyway. Yeah, great. And I get that three-monthly. Uh in terms of other I never went to a speech pathologist. Probably sh should go to something to stop talking so fast. No, that's not true. No, I mean just for but just for context, yeah, just for context. I know people do it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

Yeah, just for context, like something. Yeah, some people see speech pathologists to help adjust like the calibre of their voice to sort of match the the the gender that they want.

SPEAKER_02 58:14

Yeah, yeah, no, and I I think that would be like super beneficial. I think at the time, with all the other medical bills that I was having, I was like, I kind of thought that, you know, with there was just a lot. Um but then I've also I have had top surgery.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

And then I've also had uh full hysterectomy.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Yeah, wow. So I have yet. I think you mentioned just when we we were talking with the the microphones of that you've actually got endometriosis. I do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

So it was a rough time growing up. Um so heavy.

SPEAKER_05 58:45

Like it was I don't think I knew that. I don't know if I knew that.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

How heavy it was. I feel like I probably told you how heavy it was.

SPEAKER_05 58:52

I didn't think the I didn't think my utero had following it.

SPEAKER_02 58:55

Yeah, no, no, no. So it was only I only I only know was after because some people who had it and they were talking about it, and I was like, I don't know if I feel like that was me, but I was like, film kind of ringing a little bit true. And then I kind of looked into it on the side, and then it's like you can only really find out if like they like they go in and do it. So then when I was doing the initial things for the hysterectomy, I was like, so I don't want to be like this, but maybe just have a look and then just like let me know. Like, or good if not, like probably not, you know? Like, probably not. And then um, yeah, after my hysterectomy, uh she came to me and she was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, you had scarring after it. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 59:30

Did you have any pain?

SPEAKER_02 59:32

She was like, it was like, oh yeah, she was It was the worst case of any week. They said they could like take some of it out, but then other bits were like on like wrapped around all that they couldn't get to the scar. And it was yeah, it got up to my powers.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

So did you have pelvic pain? Did you have bad pelvis? Yeah, I yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:45

Like really and like a lot of pain, like I couldn't.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

So since starting the tea came at the best time because it's just enough to dry. Has it gone? Is it gone?

SPEAKER_02 59:53

Yeah, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

Yeah, wow. Because uh yeah, I guess I'd they used to be pain.

SPEAKER_02 59:58

I would still sometimes get kind of these phantom kind of pains on and off.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

Um like adhesions, maybe adhesion pain, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:04

Not since the hysterectomy.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Amazing. And the testosterone, presumably too?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

Or no, sometimes I would still get pains even on the testosterone.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Yeah, because uh I guess if you've got external endo endometriosis outside of the uterus on your bowels, perhaps you might also still have symptoms.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:20

No, no, no, no, I'm just just being like, oh my god, it's just a lot of things. Yeah, it's a lot of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:24

It's curious, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

So but it must have I mean, she was like, you probably just started testosterone and to uh to then be able to stop obviously menstruating and then all of that going on because obviously it would have just kept getting worse. So um love that for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

Silver lining, you know, take a week cancer.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

But yeah, yeah, it was pretty rough.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

And have you completed your transition? It's an arbitrary question, but do you feel like you're in a place where you have you you where you want to be?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:50

Yeah, honestly, couldn't couldn't imagine more like my life. Like obviously there's certain things you never know, but in terms of just medical advancements, I don't really think that's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:01

And I think we um touched on um bottom surgery in in a in a previous episode. It's just a it's very um high risk. Yeah, particularly particularly as a trans man. Correct.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

Yeah, it's not what you're I wouldn't not a betting man and I wouldn't have to be able to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

No, and it's it's it's um it's highly complex. But other than that, that's as that's as much risk as I can get it. Yeah, it's highly complicated. No one in Australia performs it in in a lot of the first world. They don't uh some other some countries do, but it's um very, very risky. And yeah, and I think Naia also touched on this is that she wants to get to a stage where things are like certain before she would ever make that call. And I think that's reasonable, you know. With something like you know, it's huge.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:46

Absolutely to not cause more issues or anything, yeah. So I'm happy where I'm at.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

So beautiful. So yeah, I guess um just to sort of summarise the medical stuff, obviously, when you went through uh we started your transition, there was the psychological um component. Well, just to reassure everyone, that doesn't exist anymore. So in Australia, it's an informed consent model. Um if uh I'm gonna speak on um in terms of age, so 18 and over, because under 18 is a different um there's there's different uh not I don't know, rules and regulations is a bit heavy, but there's different criteria. There's definitely no hard nose. More cautious, I guess. I guess, yeah. And yeah. So I guess maybe some of the things just to sort of highlight is, you know, um obviously going on hormones is a is a beautifully enabling experience for people who want to transition and feel more comfortable within their bodies. But there are there are risks, which is why there it has to be done under medical supervision. So some of the um specialists that you've identified is a general practitioner and an endocrinologist.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:47

Also, shout out to my general practitioner.

unknown 1:02:48

I love her.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

Oh great, we love that. We love that. We'd love to hear that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:51

We love to hear that. I love her so much.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:54

So nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

I have gone to her for example. No, we are big at more than ever. We always talk about it. I will follow her wherever she goes. I love you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. But we need to hear more of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:04

Um, so yeah, obviously, find yourself a good GP is the first port of call. Sometimes it's tricky to know um who's a safe clinician in this space. It is very tricky. So you've just got to, there's a, I mean, in in Perth in and in um, well not really Western Australia, but in Perth, there are certainly a few practices that will identify um as practitioners who practice in this space. Just do your research, um, try and look around and see, you know, if you've got any friends who have gone down that that pathway. Then depending on which way you are transitioning, sometimes a general practitioner is actually really confident and comfortable in actually initiating treatment themselves. An endocrinologist is not necessarily required. Oh, really? There's prescribers. Yeah, gene could prescribe. Yeah, so testosterone is a little bit different. Um if it's on the PBS, it needs to be the pharmaceutical benefit scheme, it needs to come from a specialist.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:56

Oh, yes, I've got a I've got a condition, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:59

I'm like, yes, it's a deficiency. Android.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:01

I do I do have a deficiency.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's my engineer. Yeah, yeah. Um so once um then you go through the risks and benefits whichever way you would like to transition, and then you initiate the hormone therapy, and it's different um whichever way. Um the reason that we get a specialist involved, either an endocrinologist and now actually sexual health physicians are also involved in transitioning, is that um uh adjusting hormones um has uh flow-on effects not just in terms of your gender, but lots of other parts of your health. Um so it's not meant to scare you, but it's just really important to acknowledge that this is this should be done under medical supervision, and there are clinicians that are uh certainly safe and available to do so. Um so don't be afraid to ask for help. Um, find the right people, find a safe space, and you can certainly have uh as good a journey as Dan has had with his GP. Um so again, for clinicians who are listening who might be a little bit uncomfortable or not sure about this space, there are some excellent guidelines that um you can use to guide you through the ones that um we commonly use it called OSPATH guidelines. We'll pop them in the show notes. Um so if you're a GP and you feel like this is something that you can get interested in, you can absolutely facilitate a safe space for people wanting to transition.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:21

So also TransFolk of WA has a really good list of um yeah, everything. So many um gender-affirmed providers, um and not even just of like gender-free medical care, but yeah, just uh gender friend friendly.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:36

Absolutely, yeah. And we can curate a little list um for the for other states as well. Um obviously, sorry, to our large international contingent. It's large.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:47

The rules are out. The rules are out. It is large. It's 30 countries, though. What can I say?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:51

What can I say? Um so we'll obviously the the resources will be very Australia specific. Nick, but look, if you're listening and you are from overseas, Let us know. Yeah, play overseas. Come to WA. Come to WA. But let us know your experiences. I you know, obviously, um it was a very Australian-centric um representation, but um call in.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:14

Call in.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:15

Especially our one listener from Galway. Thank you so much for listening to me from Malaysia.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:19

And for Malaysia. We appreciate you. But yes, we'll put it in the show notes what we know. Thank you so much, Dan, for sharing your experience. And I I knew it was gonna be brilliant because you're stuck. You have a way with words, and it's just poetic and lovely, but also you're just hilarious, and I love you. So it's been truly a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:38

And a privilege, a total privilege. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:41

Yeah, I wasn't sure what was gonna come out of my mouth.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:43

So it's uh it's all been quality. It looks good.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:45

That's all right. I'm gonna see the headphones off.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:47

I'm like, okay, so it's good.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:48

But uh no, it's been absolutely yeah, it's been great to be here. Um and yeah, I just think for anyone out there, like you said, access, you know, there is safe services that you can that you can go to and to explore this and obviously just trust yourself. And like I said, even if things are a bit challenging at first, or you go to one service and it's a bit of a knockback, like that doesn't mean that there's anything you know wrong with you, I guess. Um that can come up as well. For sure. Uh and again, you know, you you can find a right service and to to keep going down that you know avenue if that's what's good for you. Um because it can be a whole another word out there if that's what you're if that's what you're wanting.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:23

Yeah, beautiful, beautiful. And if like a health pro clinician doesn't meet your needs, or you know, get a new one.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:31

If you don't like the GP, get another one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

Okay, fall in love with your GPs. That's my message.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

Fall in love with your GPs.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:38

Not like in love, sorry, so bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:39

No, but we love to hear that as a GPG. As a GP myself, that's really nice to hear. Because it makes it a difference. Well, thank you so much. You know, it does it. It makes a difference.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:49

And it's for your it's for your health, like moving forward no matter, you know, through everything you can go to the consistency.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:54

I once had a patient say, My GP is like the conductor to my orchestra. Oh my god. I cried.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:01

Yes, honestly. I cried. I mean, I don't know if I'm poly. That was a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:04

I know that was so pro yeah, and I just, yeah, you're right. We just we're able just to really coordinate your care in a really meaningful way. So I think that's beautiful. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:12

Beautiful, beautiful guy. Everyone's doing great work. All right, um, we must enjoy the maldox. Yes, done it. Good luck in your new role. I think you're gonna be brilliant. Yeah, I hope so. Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:22

Yeah, all the things. I think we have a water slide in our room.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:24

Whoa. Okay, stunning. Jealous. If we can get there. I don't get there. In the maldox. I thought new new job was. Whoa, that's so cool. I want a water slide. Okay, really well.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:36

That's it. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:38

Okay. Alright, but we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:40

Thanks for listening. Thanks again. Love you all. Love you. Bye. For Goodness' Sex is produced and edited by me, Dr. Shamani, social media and visuals by Nurse Ellie, with audio assistance by Avesta Zanel. We couldn't do it without our management team, Louisa and Sarah, the Hen House Recording Studio for hosting our recording sessions, and Tapari Sound Safari for our music. Don't forget to check out our show notes for all our recommendations and to send us a text with your questions, queries, stories, or feedback. We love hearing from you. Thanks for listening.