For Goodness Sex

P0rn Politics: Part 1

• Shyamini and Ellie • Season 2 • Episode 10

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Today, we’re talking porn - and yes, we’re nervous. But we’re also brave! In this two part series, we dive into the good, the bad, and the genuinely damaging. 

How has porn shaped our sexuality? What responsibility does it have? And how can we build porn literacy that actually supports pleasure, consent and connection?

Tune in to find out!

Find us here!

Instagram: @fgsx_pod

Email: fgsx_pod@gmail.com

Resources here!

“Porn Literacy: An Introduction” – Emily Rothman et al. 

The Pornhub Insights annual report 

The Australian Institute of Family Studies (AIFS) reports on young people + porn 

Erika Lust’s work on ethical porn (focus on consent, diverse bodies)

Pleasure Mechanics – “The Porn Literacy Project” https://thelightproject.co.nz/2-2-building-critical-thinking/the-p-o-r-n-literacy-tool/

Sexual Health Victoria – resources on porn and relationships https://www.shvic.org.au/student-activity/pornography-whats-the-harm/

SHINE SA – Porn & Sexual Health resources - https://shinesa.org.au/

THE YEP PROJECT  https://theyepproject.org.au/resource/sex-and-technology/pornography/

Podcasts / media

“The Pleasure Principles” – ABC Australia

“Sex and Psychology” – Dr Justin Lehmiller (episodes on porn research)

 Rena Malik, MD podcast 

ABC series – You Can’t Ask That, S7 Porn Stars – ABC iView

Other

SHIPS psychology – What you need to know about porn https://www.shipspsychology.com.au/blog/what-you-need-to-know-about-porn

SHRIMPTEETH – How to talk to your pals about porn: https://shrimpteeth.com/blog/how-to-talk-to-your-pals-about-p0rn

“Pornography and women’s sexual pleasure: Accounts from young women in Australia” - by Dr Sarah Ashton, Dr Karalyn McDonald & Dr Maggie Kirkman

“What does “pornography” mean in the digital age? Revisiting a definition for researchers” - by Dr Sarah Ashton, Dr Karalyn McDonald & Dr Maggie Kirkman


We are your co-hosts, Dr Shyamini and Nurse Ellie, and this, is For Goodness Sex xx

SPEAKER_01

Hello, my name is Shamani and I'm a co-host of the podcast for Goodness Sex. I'm a Fijian Indian woman of immigrant parents and am proud to live, work, and play on Wajakanyunga country. This podcast acknowledges the past, present, and future traditional custodians of stolen country and the impact this has had on the health and well-being of our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander brothers and sisters. Sovereignty was never ceded.

SPEAKER_00

Hi team. Now, whilst we are healthcare professionals, this episode is for informational purposes only, and it does not replace personalized healthcare advice. Your health is unique to you. If you have healthcare concerns, please seek out your local health professional. Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. Absolutely nailed it. Sorry, sorry. Thank you, babe. Thank you. I didn't want to shame or glorify porn. Yeah. I just wanted to talk honestly about how it shapes us, our sexuality, our relationships, and our brains. Hi, hello, and welcome. We are your co-hosts, Dr. Charmani and Nurse Ellie.

SPEAKER_01

And this is for goodness sex.

SPEAKER_00

Hello. You're a bit under the weather. I am under the weather. So under the bus, under a fur. Oh god. It's going around. It is the time.

SPEAKER_01

I was literally bragging the other day about like how I'm better than everyone because I haven't been sick for like two years. Okay, well, that's where you went wrong. Yeah, that's where I wrong, and then I got sick twice in two months.

SPEAKER_00

So you can't clearly not a superhero. You can't anger the gods. No. Yeah. God has favourites, I'm not one of them. I've been there. I've been there. It's me. It's you. I'm okay though. I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm proud of you for showing up. Thank you. Thank you. And you? I'm good. I'm good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, good. Can't complain. Um going to see Abby Chatfield tomorrow night, which I'm going to be. I'm excited. I can't wait to hear about it. I know, it's gonna be great. Um so yeah, I'm good. Good. Yeah. Great. We've got a we've got a big topic. A big topic. Today. Admittedly, we both felt a little bit out of our depths in the lead up to this episode. I have been overwhelmed. I've gone down many rabbit holes. No, but I'm glad that we're talking about it. Yeah. Um gotta start somewhere. We've gotta start somewhere. Yeah. So yeah, today we're talking about porn. Porn. Everyone. We're talking about porn.

SPEAKER_01

We're gonna talk about porn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And um actually we are gonna oh sorry, just before we continue. If you do a fucking triple false, I'm gonna kill you. I suppose probably about time. I was gonna say we we're probably gonna split this into two parts. Yeah. Because it's quite, so um, stay tuned. Stay tuned for our two parts. But yeah, we'll get we'll get cracking today. Well, actually, Ellie will get cracking. Okay. Oh god. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And before we start, um payback's a bit.

SPEAKER_01

Well, this is, I feel like out of my depth with this topic. But you know what?

SPEAKER_00

I'm I'm okay with being wrong. I'm so proud of you. And I think you're gonna get this. I do have a porn literacy pop quiz for you. Now, I will reassure you, it's you know, nothing spicy, nothing, it's just myth busting. And I think I think you'll do great. Okay, so true or false? True or false. Okay. Okay. So number one, most people learn more about sex from media and porn than from formal sex education. True. It's true. Surely. Yeah, unfortunately it's true. Yeah. And that's why we're here today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great job. Thank you. I was gonna get the buzzer out, but Oh, it's here.

SPEAKER_01

I know, but I just put it here for when I get something wrong.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, perfect. Which might be the next one. Um porn actors, or stars, I guess. I don't know. Um adult stars? Yeah. Yeah, porn stars. Adult content creators creators. Yeah. We'll probably get onto the nitty-gritty of that anyway. We will, we will negotiate boundaries before filming. True. Yeah, yeah. So this is a tricky one. Surely tricky. This is a tricky one. Okay. Yes. So yes, we in most ethical companies, yes, we we hope so, but I guess, and this is why we're talking about it, because it's there's so much to discuss, but you know, it's not guaranteed in all mainstream studio porn. Yeah. And also, I guess the thing is, when are they discussing these negotiating boundaries? Is it in a room full of people just before we start? Are people feeling pressure? You know, there's a lot there. Um so it is a tricky one. Um, some, you know, some ethical companies, but we can't guarantee that all do. Okay. Okay. Okay. So true-ish. That was a tricky one. I'm sorry. No, that's okay. I will I will take that. Okay, true or false? Fantasy always reflects real life desire. False. Yeah. Exactly right. Okay. Okay, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. And that was also a tricky one because because they are related, but but they're not the same. No. Yeah. Okay, so uh fantasy is shaped by curiosity, um, imagination, and desire is shaped by safety, trust, communication, and context. Okay. So fantasy can explore and we will get into this more later. Um but yeah, fantasy, I guess, can explore um more taboo acts without any wish to actually act that out. Sometimes it is metaphorical, expresses a feeling, um not an action. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. So you're completely completely right. Cool. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Porn is filmed in one continuous take. False. Yeah. So almost never. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um it's it's often there's often breaks and edits for hydration and cooling down and check-ins and things like that. When I was listening to a podcast about one um director of porn, like she said that there was some, there were some cases where it was a full take all the way through. You know, and she was like, it was amazing. But um, we'll get into that again later. But almost never. It's almost always, you know, edited. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay. Um okay, last question. Okay. Oh, it's so good. Okay, okay, okay. Um porn rarely shows safe sex practices.

SPEAKER_01

Rarely. Or I wanna say false. I wanna say that a lot of the time it does show safe sex practices. But perhaps that's not true.

SPEAKER_00

Wait, what have I put here? Sorry. Sorry, I no, I've written true. Oh, okay. Yeah, good. Oh no, sorry, I said false.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So it's true. They don't show safe sex practices. Yeah, unfortunately, a lot of the time um in mainstream porn, yeah. They you know, they're not whooping out a condom and putting it on, they're not showing safer sex practices. A lot of the time, you know, they they porn rarely shows safe sex practices. Okay, that's sad. It is sad. That's tragic. Okay, well great job. Thank you. Thanks for being brave in doing that. I really just wanted to, you know, how the turntables actually so fair. It was about it was about time. But I knew you I knew you'd smash it. Yeah, it's about time. Um okay, so yeah, today we're talking about porn. And I guess first off, I just want to start by acknowledging like my own, I don't know, sensitivity and apprehension about this topic. I was actually quite nervous. Okay. And I was trying to figure out why. I was like, why am I nervous? You know, we talk about lots of things on this podcast, and I consider myself a very open and honest person. But yeah, I I was nervous about this one, and I guess just because porn is like considered taboo, you know, and and we do feel shame. Um, and and it's not really a topic that we discuss publicly or even socially that much. Like um, I have had conversations with my friends about it, you know, but even then, pretty few and far between. Yeah. Um so yeah, it I felt nervous getting into it. Yeah. But I'm glad we're talking about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so yeah, I guess there's a lot to unpack, and I found that even in my own queer, like um sex-positive circles, that that that there was discomfort around this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Why do you think that is? Do you think there's like shame around porn consumption or stigma or yeah, I think that there is shame and stigma.

SPEAKER_00

It's almost like but masturbation somehow s is it's like impairing to discuss than porn. Yeah, because maybe it's the fear that people like, I don't know. Yeah, I there's also in doing the research I've noticed there's so many views, you know, positive and negative, which will get into more so. Um yeah, I guess, yeah, people feel shame. I again maybe it links back to that like fantasy thing where like maybe they feel shameful of what type of porn they're watching, or if they feel like that's gonna link the like link to how they want to act, even though it's not. I don't know. So I think it's very layered. And like maybe I, you know, it's the same as like when we talk about sex, everyone feels like everyone else is having great sex and they're not, you know, maybe inherently we all kind of feel like we're broken, so maybe we're all just like we're broken and disgusting and no one else is the same. I'm not gonna talk about it.

SPEAKER_01

But then like chances are people have consumed just as much porn as you or probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's funny, it's yeah, it's like it's something that we don't talk about in like a in a like probably like quietly obsessed with porn s society. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um yeah, interesting. Yeah. Well, proud of you for being brave. This is great. Like I was hell anxious, and here I am. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Ready to go.

SPEAKER_01

Did my best. Did my best.

SPEAKER_00

Um but yeah, I didn't quite know where to start. But I thought that um we may as well start with what porn is. Yeah, that would be great. Let's do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, I guess in tackling this, I I I I um I didn't want to shame or glorify porn. Yeah. I just wanted to talk honestly about how it shapes us, our sexuality, our relationships, and our brains. Um that's sort of what my aim was. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Um, but yeah, let's get clear on what porn actually is. So porn is the portrayal of sexual subject matter for the purpose of sexual arousal. Okay. Um, but it isn't just one thing. There's it's it's an entire ecosystem from mainstream studio porn to to independent queer cre creators. And over time, as you'll get in too sharply, it's it's evolved. It's evolved. It is evolved hugely. Um and I guess porn essentially is meant for was meant for entertainment. True. Um it it it does blur the line between reality and fantasy, and I think that that's the point. Yep. Um it's meant to spark curiosity and arousal, but it's it's not meant to teach sexual communication or consent.

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_01

Although there's potential. Oh. There's potential in that. Which I want to talk, I do want to talk about at some point because you know, I think there's it's so true.

SPEAKER_00

Put the two together.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's a responsibility, I think, in this industry. But anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're so right.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um so yeah, I guess my point is that porn is meant as entertainment, but many people are learning how to have sex behind closed doors from porn. Okay. Um and what we see on screen, it's it's you know, it it is it's scripted. Yeah, it's edited, as I mentioned, um, it's negotiated. And also these performers are sexual athletes. Yes, they are. This is their job. Job. Okay. Yeah. They are athletes, the preparation, the skill, the time like it is, we cannot compare. Hats off to them. Like, you know, um we didn't learn to to drive by watching F1, Formula One, did we? And we did not. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So you know, it's it's it's not helpful. No. You know? Yes, there are other types of other types of porn. So you've you're probably talking about you know, filmed porn that we we see and watch. Um but that you know you can sort of categorize types of porn by format or medium. So there's like print photography, like that's historically been porn, like magazines or digital galleries, film and video, as you've mentioned. Also animation. There's some Western adult animations as well. Yeah. Literature, erotica, fan fiction, subgenres, audio only content, which I love.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, honestly, I'm I'm gonna start getting into it. I love audio erotica. It's a little into it. This made me even more when I was researching it, made me even more inspired to delve into that. And your love for it. I was like, hey.

SPEAKER_01

The Devil of Dublin, if you're listening. Oh Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00

And I put some. We can sort the two right apps. Yeah, but some recommendations at the end as well. But you're right, there's so many.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and there's a there's a new growing um category like uh VR or interactive porn. Oh my god, I've heard of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then there's sort of the by format, and then there's the by production model. Um so there's like the traditional studio systems, you know, where there's like a centralized studio, um, thinking like a Playboy kind of era sort of thing. And then there's amateur content, so like home content, I suppose. And then there's also just like creator direct platforms like OnlyFans, where people control the production, pricing, audience, that sort of stuff. And then like cam sites, so live cam sites as well. Um so it's you can already tell it's like there's so much, no, so much out there.

SPEAKER_00

Honestly, this is where I like yeah, I touched on OnlyFans, and then I was like, I I have to stop. We have to stop here. So, you know, yeah, being yeah, yeah. We're just two people and we've got a three-hour studio book, so we'll do our best.

SPEAKER_01

And then the la the last way it can be segmented, I guess, is um by sexual orientation. Okay, is is one. Um ethical or feminist porn, which I think we're gonna get into at some point, um, which talks a little bit about uh consent, documentation, behind the scenes, transparency, that sort of stuff. And the niche fetish content, which maybe leans into the fantasy stuff that you've you've mentioned.

SPEAKER_00

Um so yeah, there's a bit more of a spa there's so much there. There's so much there. And keeping in mind that yeah, I th we we want to do another episode in season three, like a whole nother episode on on Kink and B this seven. So like we're just not even gonna go there this episode. We're not gonna go there this episode. And yeah, again with with maybe young people and porn, I've I've touched on a bit, but we'll we'll it probably needs to be a whole nother Probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But yeah, we're we're just basically highlighting that it's complex and there's a lot there and there's a lot to cover.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there is, but we're gonna do our best. We're gonna do our best. We're gonna do best.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I guess again, just want to highlight that everyone is into different things. True. We're all unique. Um our erotic imaginations, they're complex and they're they're symbolic, okay? I guess, yeah. So my my main point was it's important to remember that fantasy doesn't always equal desire, and desire doesn't always equal action. Okay. Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um so yeah, using porn is is part of of most people's sexual development. It is. It and it does shape our sexuality a lot. Um, and yet it's something that we rarely talk about. Rarely. Which is what we've discussed. What is up with that?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think you touched on it earlier about like we're so uncomfortable as people to talk about sex with kids and schools and people are interested, they're having fantasies, they want to explore. Their friends are probably using porn, then they go and use porn, and this is their their way their way to explore, I guess, unguided. That's probably why. Yeah. And there's shame in that, I think. But there shouldn't be, but it's like we're almost doing, I mean, we'll talk about the pros and cons, obviously. We're almost doing a disservice as people are exploring in secret. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um so I guess now that we know what porn is, um, I just and you've done a brilliant true and false, and you've busted some myths, and I'm I love that. Um but I was just going to run through a few more pornisms. Oh, pornisms. Yes. So let's talk about some of the myths that porn teaches us. Yeah. Okay. So, first of all, and look, we've discussed this before, and even I've fallen culprit to this potentially. Um, penises are huge and they're the star of the show. Okay. So far. Oh, sorry, this isn't true. I know, but it's true. These are just, yeah, these are myths that we absorb through mainstream porn. Again, um, we'll get into ethical porn later, but this is what's usually portrayed in mainstream porn. So um average penis size in porn is around 20 centimetres. Sorry, what?

SPEAKER_01

That is deaf. We go back to that penis episode with Craig, that is way above the bell curve. Which is, and if we remember correctly, it was 16 centimetres and above was the higher range of the bell curve. Yes. So if 20 centimetres is the average, that's a lie. That's not that's not accurate.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Wild. Wild. Wild. 20 centimetres. Yeah. Um and obviously we know that most apabs don't orgasm from penetration alone, but this is portrayed a lot through mainstream porn. Um, another pornism. So vulvas are hairless and breasts are big. Not always, you know, bodies come in all shapes, all colours, all sizes. And pubic hair is natural. Alright. Remove it or don't, it's up to you. Yeah. Women like rough sex. Okay, or AFabs like rough sex. This is another pornism. Um you know, it's not to say that you can't. People do. Yeah. But talk to your partner and don't just assume based on what you've consumed.

SPEAKER_01

Oh. Don't assume based on what you've consumed. I didn't even write that down. Oh my god, you are brilliant.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like I should be a rapper. What that that was amazing.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. Okay, wow. Don't go on.

SPEAKER_00

Don't consume.

SPEAKER_01

Wait.

SPEAKER_00

Don't assume what you I'm now going full anti-porn. Don't consume it's LBC. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. Okay, wow. We did we managed to fit in a song. Let's go. We did every bit. Okay. Um another pornism, sex is always great. That's sometimes sex is actually a bit meh. Scary sometimes. Scary. Sometimes it's awkward. Awkward? Sometimes it's funny. Yeah. Even with someone you really like. Yeah. Someone you love. Yeah. And honestly, I kind of love those moments. Yeah, the messy, noisy ones. Hilarious. Yeah. Oh my god, yeah. Good point. Yeah. Brings me to my next point. Yeah. Bodies don't smell, they don't sweat, and they don't make a noise. Please, come on. Come on. You know, this all contributes to shame and unrealistic expectations of sex. Where, you know, you're gonna smell, you're gonna sweat, you're gonna fanny fight. You're gonna fanny fan. Maybe maybe actually fart. Maybe poo. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe I should have done it.

unknown

But it's happened.

SPEAKER_01

Not to me. Well, it's happened to a friend of a friend of mine. Okay. No, I yeah, I mean, yeah, it's funny because like if if those sounds happen or there's sweat or there's um you know that sort of stuff, you don't want your nervous system to suddenly be like, oh my god, that noise happened, or that's not is that what that person's expecting? Like that's that's like the um what did what did Nikki G say? The accelerators and the inhibitors. It's an inhibitor. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00

So it is. Do you want to hear one of mine? Yeah, go on. Okay, it's it's like it's huge. It's like one thing I probably think about so often during intimate moments and sex and things. So I have really I I have my dad's heels. So I've really I've got dry, cracked heels. Okay. And I you wouldn't believe the lengths that I go to to try and keep them moist. You honestly would not believe how much of my could be somebody's yum. Don't want to yuck somebody's yum with the dry heels. Yeah, so every morning I yeah, it's a whole thing. Okay. Yeah, I've got heel balm and I soak them, I'd soak them every night and I heel balm. So they're much better than they were. But um my yeah, the my my the thought of my dry heels wrapping around someone during sex, nah.

SPEAKER_01

Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. I'm so sorry. Oh, that's okay.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, if anyone else out there is feels like me, please let me know because mine um might be a bit more common common. Wait, more common of complex.

SPEAKER_01

Common. Okay. Common. I have um, you know, being uh d dark skinned, um, I have a lot of discoloration or like darker areas in my body. Um and including sort of in my genital area essentially, this darker colour. Um Whilst no man has ever complained about that, to me, that is something I get nervous about because it's portrayed as this, you know, uniform skin colour. Um, I've also had, you know, we've been through our hair removal journeys and I've had ingroans and scarring and things like that. I scar really easily. I scar physically, mentally, emotionally so easily. Thank you, Missy. Missy again so much. Scary Missy. They're not fading. They're really not fading. So, you know, I have hyperpigment hyperpigmentation that sometimes makes me nervous. Even though it's never actually been reflected in any encounter I've ever had. It doesn't need to be. It doesn't need to be. But it's the same with your heels still.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, fuck.

SPEAKER_01

Do you know what I mean? It's a rough outfit, just existing in your body. It is.

SPEAKER_00

It's because like yeah, it's because a lot of the time either what we or what other people are consuming is is um a s a stereotypical view of a thin, perfectly evenly toed, hairless Vatican. Yeah, exactly. That's not me. Yeah, so sorry, yeah. Um okay, well I'm glad we bonded on that. Um heel skin discoloration. And yeah, I think that would be. I the last one was it's still important to mention, I think, was that everyone orgasms, okay, which which is is not true, and and you know that it that takes time, it takes communication, it takes practice. Um lovely. Oh, please.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna go through it pretty briefly, but I did find it quite interesting when I was going into it. Um so I don't think we're any stranger to knowing that multiple ancient classical cultures have had erotic art and literature. That's not new. We know that, we know that. Um this was all kind of widely accepted as part of visual culture, you know, ceramics or artwork and things like that. Um but then pornography became a distinct category in the 18th to 19th century during the print era, which came alongside mass printing, right? Um We're talking Playboy. Yeah. So it works like Fanny Hill in 1748. I want to take the trip. Fanny Hill. Um that prompted some of the first sort of modern obscenity prosecutions. Um, you know, Victorian England had a boom in clandestine, erotic publishing, um, intense public moralizing sort of, you know, um sorry, a pattern of private versus a pattern of private versus private consumption and public condemnation that recurs throughout history. So maybe that's kind of where it sort of originated from when we're talking about doing everything in private, but it's been publicly condemned. Yeah. So this this this kind of private print era is kind of where it all started. Okay. So it was wide in the open in ancient classical roots, and then when we when it kind of hit the 189th century, it kind of became a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Yeah. Because we could consume it at home. Yeah, yeah. Is that the difference? And just like people are going to to galleries, they're going to exhibitions, they're seeing whatever David's cock and bowls, whatever. Yeah, yeah. And now there's the option like print came out, it was something that then went shh. Yeah. Which I assume everyone was always masturbating before people were masturbating before that. We'll do an episode of masturbating everyone, it's okay. My app just told me the ovulation looks good on you. Oh, stunning. It does.

SPEAKER_01

It absolutely does. Um and then in the 20th century, um, there was photography and film. So we had print and then 20th century, photography and film. So in the early 1900s to 1960s, we had those stag films, those early stag films, which were illegal, underground kind of black market type thing. Um, and then in the 1950s to 60s, Playboy kind of helped legitimise erotic content as mainstream consumer culture. And then the 1970s are considered the golden age of porn.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So films like Deep Throat in 1972 actually briefly played in sort of real theatres and became a mainstream cultural event. So that was like the broader sexual kind of revolution. So we've gone from open, I've never seen it. No, I haven't either. Intriguing. Maybe we should. Um and then in the 1980s we went to like VHS, home videos, um, public theatres to private living rooms. Um, and so we've kind of gone this back and forward, private, public, private, public. Um, but then it really kind of boomed in the internet era. So the 1990s to 2000s, which um you know they say that the internet is arguably the single biggest disruptor, okay, in porn. Free tube sites, Pornhub, um, that kind of um impacted paid studio business models, um, and they were able to make content just more radically essentially accessible and anonymous, right? Yes, yes. Um but I I don't know if we should go into it, I suppose, but um the you and you're probably gonna go into it in terms of being um sex like porn positive or anti-porn, I guess, in in a way, kind of emerged in the feminist sex wars of the 1980s.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, I didn't get into this, so please tell me.

SPEAKER_01

I'm just gonna go into it briefly because we could talk for hours about this. But yeah, but basically there were um in 1980s porn actually split feminism itself and so it came this thing called the feminist sex wars or the lesbian sex wars essentially. Um sounds hard. Yeah, yeah. So there were these anti-porn feminists, so Andrea Daworkin and Catherine McKinnon that argued that porn was inherently linked to violence against women, but then there were sex positive feminists that argued for porn as potential sexual liberation and push back against censorship. So this this is what they call the fault line. This is a fault line between the two kind of um sides of porn, which still sort of shapes debates today. It does. Including in the ethical porn movement. It does. Which I think you can do. It does.

SPEAKER_00

And this is what I found in all my research. And again, and so I will yeah, I I want to hear more, but I guess I guess when I was, yeah thinking about it, I I feel like this is the issue I have when people stand so strongly and firmly about something. And I guess there's I guess I always sit in the place where two things can be true and in in the place of nuance, you know, where I'm aware Yeah, I'm aware of the good and and the bad. But um is it helpful to have a complete divide in this group of people where one's completely anti, one's completely pro I don't think so. I don't think so either.

SPEAKER_01

I think it's hard, and I think that's kind of where this divide kind of then fueled the the ethical porn debate moving forward, because it was you know, there were organized groups that said yes to porn, and then the other one's like, no, this is inherently violence against women, and it was quite quite like divided. Divided. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, everything I was listening to, like people were and I was these like the things that I was researching and listening to, like these were also um these were clinicians, there were PhDs, like so yeah, so many different voices, and they would talk and and I was like, yes, yes, I can agree with what you're saying, and then they'd come out with just like I don't know, something just like we're pro-sex, but we're anti-porn. Yeah, yeah. So I was like, Whoa, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so really like this really split feminist groups essentially. But you know, this is interesting to know though. Yeah, yeah. And so I think it kind of um has shaped discussions moving forward. Definitely. And the last uh sort of history to 2010s to present, this is the creator economy shift they call. So on the OnlyFans and similar platforms, which yeah, we won't go into details, but this is um maybe the most significant structural change since the internet itself. So studio controlled production to performer-owned distribution. So yeah, I think it's a long-standing history of porn, um, which has ebbed and flowed, my favourite line, um, public and private, and it's still an ongoing debate, yes is what we're basically saying. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it's still ever changing, like as you said, and it's only gonna change more. Yeah, you know, so yeah, yeah, it it's just wild how um even just in our lifetime, yeah, things have shifted. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, thank you for that. That's okay. Thank you for the little history update. Yeah, that's okay.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So what's next? Yes, so so glad you asked. My good friend Shamini, my love and adore. Likewise. So we've spoken about the myths about porn, and I guess the reason that this matters is because our our brains learn from what we watch, true? Yep, yeah. So porn does affect our brain. It does change our brain. Okay, we know that orgasms are a powerful neurological reward, okay? Um, and when you pair that with porn, your brain can link the stimulus with the reward.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So if the content is risky or shocking or intense, that's when adrenaline also gets involved.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Which creates like heightened rewards. Over time, the brain may adapt and then meaning that you need more intensity, more novelty, more risky to get the same response. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's actually that's actually so true. Yeah. That's actually so true. So yeah, so watching porn activates the brain's dopamine-driven reward system. Relations. Dopamine. Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, I just saw I listened to a really good episode on the imperfects recently, which referenced something called slopamine. Oh okay, tell me more. Slow dopamine.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, stunning.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So it's talking about people with ADHD and how often a lot of this society people want fast dopamine. It's the drugs or the alcohol, the online shopping, whatever it may be. So now we're um we're seeking slopamine, which is slow dopamine. Stunning. Yeah, I don't know. Going for a walk on nature, just with Oh God. So yeah, now my password to everything is slopamine slot one, two, three. No one, no one hack me.

SPEAKER_01

Continue. No, no, that's okay. So um so so dopamine um is that sort of the same circuitry involved in other pleasurable and reward-seeking behaviours, which you've just mentioned, like alcohol and that sort of stuff. Um But dopamine in this context is more about wanting and anticipation rather than the pleasure itself. Okay. So before you said over time the brain may adapt. Um so there was an MRI study, or the some MRI studies um found that men who reported more hours of porn use per week actually had less grey matter volume in the striatum, which is a reward processing region. And then weaker connectivity between that region and the prefrontal cortex, which handles decision making and impulse control. Wow. So this study is often summarized as porn brain damage, which sounds really extreme. If you watch porn, you will get brain damage and die. No, please no, that's not it. But actually, what you know, researchers and academics describe it more precisely as neuroplastic adaptation. So the brain's reward system becomes less sensitive over time, i.e., adapts. More like a volume knob turning down than a tank draining. Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_03

So over time, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So over time you're just using it so often that the more hours per week, the less grey matter to this neuroplastic adaptation, which is really, really interesting.

SPEAKER_00

It is so interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so is that kind of what you were getting at in terms of the adaptation?

SPEAKER_00

Yes. I mean, I I think it was, but I didn't realise it was that. I mean, yeah, that's the science behind it, which is backed up by science. Science. We love science. Wild.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So obviously we know dopamine, and you've obviously talked about adrenaline, but I guess so that's what we know. We know that that's the the science based on what the studies, but where it gets contested is the idea of addiction. Yes. So what's your view on this?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, oh my god. Okay. So interesting again, um, as I've found with so many of our topics that we've addressed, I learn so much more when we when I deep dive into this research. And that's why I love doing this podcast with you. Yes, don't. Um yeah, I guess uh what I learnt is that porn addiction actually well, I don't want to say isn't a thing, but it's not in the DSM 5 that we spoke about. It's not diagnostic. Um and it's not to say that some people might not struggle with their porn usage and that it might cause them grief, but is it actually an addiction using quotation marks? Or um is there something else that a precursor that's led on to that? Yeah, good point. Yeah, say like depression or lack of meaning. Yeah. Um is there another mental health issue? I don't know, bipolar or something, you know, people that there's so many other things that might come before that.

SPEAKER_01

Um Absolutely, and I think the the term addiction is stigmatizing in itself, um, which you know, you're absolutely right, that the porn addiction isn't a recognized diagnosis in the DSM 5 Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Psychiatric Conditions, um, volume five. Um and the the idea is that because it's not a diagnosis, it's not pathologized, right? So there's this idea that if we pathologise porn as a condition, it's treated differently. And so there isn't enough research to back that, and which I'm gonna go into, the the actual research um that we have, which unsurprisingly there's a huge amount. Um but I guess the the closest official um category is the compulsive sexual behaviour disorder in the ICD 11, which is another manual that we use. But even that's debated. Um so we we basically researchers have uh disagree whether it's best understood as a behavioral addiction, impulse control issue, or something that overlaps with anxiety or OCD. Yeah. So most of the brain scan research has small sample sizes, um and correlation versus causation is the real uh problem. So it's hard to tell whether heavy porn use causes changes like reduced rewards sensitivity, anxiety, depression, or whether people already prone to those things are more likely to use porn heavily. Yeah. So I guess the the argument or the debate is addiction versus distress or functional impairment, right? So this is where it um uh you know can be useful to frame conversations about porn in a way that's um non-stigmatizing. Um and you know, we we don't want to over-contest a weak evidence base either. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, you know, we just don't want to do that. Um You're doing such a good job. You're doing it. I'm so sick, I'm so sick. She's sick. I'm sick, I'm sick, I'm sick. Okay, wait, no, we're doing so well.

SPEAKER_00

Take your time, take your time. Yeah, the other interesting thing that I um was listening to about this as well, is like, are you addicted to porn or are you addicted to your phone? Oh are you addicted to you know, quick reward as we say, dopamine, you know, is it porn? Is it just is it just I don't know. Yeah, it's something to consider. You know, we're addicted to anything on our phone, surely. Yeah, totally. Totally, totally.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so as you said, no addiction diagnosis exists. The closest is this compulsive sexual behaviour, which is uh impulse control disorder, not an addiction, um, because this distinction matters clinically, because we're framing self-understanding and treatment approach. The causality is unresolved, so we actually don't know whether pornography use causes distress or dysfunction, or distress and dysfunction drives use while they're both in each other.

SPEAKER_00

So what came first? Chicken or the egg? Yeah, no idea. Exactly. That that that's no, that's okay. I brought actually this roll of toilet paper. Yeah, I used it already. I brought a whole roll. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but exactly right.

SPEAKER_01

Um I did a brief literature review. Yes, I did. Um on five five on five studies in the last ten years, and unsurprisingly, one of them was only randomized control trial. Um, one of them was from a non-reputable journal. Um, and the others were very, very weak in terms of their um uh like cohort. Um and really we don't we don't have enough research. And so basically they've they've basically, you know, we know it's not a diagnosis uh of addiction, so we should really address it from a distress and functional impairment point of view rather than asserting that pornography use itself is inherently pathological. Yeah. Um or applying a substance addiction model. So when we talk about treatment of addiction, it's very different to managing distress and functional impairment. Yeah. So we we can't apply the substance addiction model wholesale to pornography because it's not technically an addiction, right? I agree.

SPEAKER_00

And like often if I have people that call up and they're quite distressed, or you know, young people calling up, maybe saying that they have a porn addiction or whatever it is, and um you know, a a lot of it is just you know, I guess figuring out you know, what is their concern, what is normal, also decreasing the stigma and the shame, because you know, that that is the issue, I guess, with the you know, is the issue porn, is the issue the stigma against porn, and is someone that's accessing porn a you know a a reasonable amount then has a fear that they're addicted. You know, it's all this, it's all this. It's so hard to quantify and yeah, and to treat, as you say.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, I think I've I think I've said enough about the science.

SPEAKER_00

Never enough.

SPEAKER_01

Do you have anything to add? So basically it's not an addiction. We can't say it's an addiction, but we do need to look at it from a i if it's causing distress or functional impairment for somebody, that's when we need to address it. If it's not, then it's not something we need to necessarily address clinically. Socially is a different story.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there. I think yeah, um not discounting that if someone feels like this is impacting their life negatively, that they're, you know, they can seek help either like from clinicians, from counselors about it. But yeah, it's it's it's not um there's no treatment for porn addiction.

SPEAKER_01

No, because it's not, yeah, because you know, addiction has a specific treatment model and we would not recommend if we're gonna use evidence-based practice, we would not recommend using it as a model for treatment of a substance abuse or you know, addiction model. Um and I think it feeds into the pathologizing of porn when we're trying to destigmatize it. Yes, 100%. It's kind of where I'm getting at.

SPEAKER_00

No, that's perfect. And like I have a plethora of resources that I will put in. Plethora. Is that our word? I say plethora. Yeah, but we say a lot of words differently, I found. We do. So I guess I just want to then note that like there's so much to talk about that we've decided to split this episode into two topics. So next in the next fortnight, we will we're gonna discuss more the impacts that porn has on us and our relationships, both both positive and negative. Um, we're gonna give you some recommendations and go through a bit about what ethical porn is and um a bit of the law there as well. So yeah, but we're gonna have to split it up with you guys. It's larger than life. It is larger than life. As are you. Shamani, oh that's I was gonna say you looked a featured so not larger than life right now.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

We'll see in a font.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and let us know what you think about this episode. Like and subscribe.

SPEAKER_00

Shamani will still be snotty in the next episode because it's happening right now.

SPEAKER_01

Starting again. Bye! For goodness sex is produced and edited by me, Dr. Shamani, with social media and visuals by Nurse Ellie. Special thanks to the Hen House Recording Studios for hosting our recording sessions. Louisa, our manager, Avesta for Audio Assistance, and Pari Sounds Fari for our podcast music. We welcome your questions, queries, and feedback as always. So send us a DM or follow the links in our show notes to leave us a message. We love to hear from you.