The people that time forgot podcast
The people that time forgot podcast
Pod 2 Meet the Michelsons
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The Michelins were a secret weapon for many Hollywood producers, directors, writers, and production designers. They both worked with Alfred Hitchcock, Steven Spielberg, Mel Brooks, Stanley Kubrick, Roman Polanski and many more but much of their work went uncredited. Harold was one of the most talented storyboard artists in Hollywood, creating images for everything from The Ten Commandments (1956) to The Fly (1986); he also became an accomplished two-time Academy Award-Nominated production designer and art director on Star Trek: The Motion Picture (1979) Lillian was one of the most talented and sought after film researchers in Hollywood for decades, providing a real-life reference for the designs of The Birds (1962), Rosemary’s Baby (1968), Fiddler on the Roof (1971), Chinatown (1974), Rocky (1976), Full Metal Jacket (1987), The Cotton Club.
The People that Time Forgot is a comedy social history podcast by Irish team Aisling Hurley and Niamh Quinn and documents people that have been written out of history, written off, forgotten about or just lost in the mists of time. We are determined to right that wrong. In normal life Aisling and Niamh are the team behind TBF (The Business Fairy) Digital Marketing Agency with Aisling also being a writer and regular radio contributor and presenter. #TTFN #FIJDI. In this episode we meet Hollywood royalty Harold and Lillian Michelson.
That time forgot podcast with Aisling Hurley and Niamh Quinn.
Speaker 2:So welcome back to the people that time for podcast with Aisling Hurley and Niamh Quinn. Yeah,
Speaker 1:Welcome to the center of the world. Ballybrittas.
Speaker 2:Ireland where nothing else matters. So the weather today is a balmy 10 degrees and it's not raining, which is, you know, we're really happy about that. It's amazing that people outside Ireland love the rain and we're like, oh, thank God it's not raining today. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a good day to hang out the washing.
Speaker 1:It is. Yep. It's Monday. So we're very motivated. positive and all that. Aisling waved in today with a vase of fabulous daffodils and on the jar it says,"give peace and joy and love. Live and laugh. Happiness. Sing and smile. Grateful for all miracles. Tomorrow. It might not feel that way, but we'll carry on.
Speaker 2:Today is a good day! Yeah. Okay. So just again the story with the podcast is that it's about people who were written out of history for whatever reason, so really cool people that were written out of history or just not documented for whatever reason. Um, so we're really trying to bring those stories to life. Um, some of these stories make us quite angry and depressed and enraged. So if you're already enraged ah, just to warning you, this may make you even more enraged. Although this one is a lovely one because who do we pick today for part two?
Speaker 1:Yeah. The Michelsons.
Speaker 2:The Michelsons, these were super cool, a couple. Yeah. I love these actually, they're so nice, like really the best of what Hollywood can be when it wants to be. Um, so tell us a bit about them because you did most of the research for this one.
Speaker 1:This couples are very, creative.. No, I'm just checking where I am. Such amazing people. Fantastic. And creative. Where are we?
Speaker 2:Down here. We did write a script which obviously we try to stick to.
Speaker 1:So they are a secret weapon for many Hollywood producers, directors, writers, production designers. Harold was one of the most talented storyboard actress in Hollywood, creating images for everything from the 10 commandments in 1956 to the fly in 1986. Amazing. He was also. Oh, there we go. Amazing. We say that a lot. He also began an accomplished two time academy award nominee for his production designs and art director on Star Trek the motion picture 1979. So he wasn't like a one trick pony. Like he wasn't a one trick trekkie.
Speaker 2:He actually, I mean the 10 commandments, is way, way at the other spectrum of Star Trek.
Speaker 1:So he was super creative, creativity coming out of every orifice yes. So his partner then was then Lillian. I love this lady.
Speaker 3:in Hollywood. Marriages don't seem to last very long. Our problems raising a family affected our marriage greatly, the fact that our marriage lasted 60 years is a big surprise.
Speaker 1:So Lillian was so interesting as well because she was one of the most talented and sought after filling researchers in Hollywood for decades. So she would have provided the references for the designs for the birds as dish. Cox Films, Rosemary's baby in 1968, Fiddler on the Roof.
Speaker 2:Fiddler on the roof during 1971, who play the fiddle, the fiddler. Chinatown. Nineteen 74.
Speaker 1:Was that Jack Nicholson? We have to get it together with the old names here. And rocky. She did Rocky? Yes, 1976. Sorry, Lilian did. I couldn't believe this because when you hear her speaking, which you will in the podcast, she also did the research for full metal jacket 1987 and that was like a really, really serious war film. You wouldn't associate her character with it. It's very soft.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. But researchers research.
Speaker 1:And she did the cotton club and so both of these amazing people that worked with Alfred Hitchcock, Mel brooks, Stanley Kubrick, Roman Polanski and many more. I mean, it's just amazing. The people that they were so talented. But the reason why we really love them is that they were such nice decent people.
Speaker 2:The thing is I'm like, but other people probably don't know about them, although they probably know a little bit more about them since Netflix did a documentary on them a couple of months ago, is that they worked away happily out behind the scenes. Everyone was getting their credit, shall we say directors and the like- and it didn't bother them.
Speaker 1:I know. I mean, how do these guys do? They were married for 60 years. That is such a long time, sixty years, and I didn't know we were discussing this before we came on. They both were so supportive of each other, but I'd say it was rare enough for the times. Has it got to do with that she got to do what she loved to do as well. Was he an amazing support to her?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because she didn't actually get into doing the research, like they had three kids, but she was at home rearing the kids, you know, for a good 10, 15 years before she actually got in and volunteered at the library. She just, she felt like she wanted to do something. She went in, in a paidless job into the research library in Hollywood. And the rest is history.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Actually, um, the two of them are so talented. One of their kids is actually incredibly talented, a visual editing artist, Denis Mickelson and he's a visual effects editor. His work includes Mission. Impossible. One of my favourite franchises. Love it. The Saint. So like amazing talent in this family. The other thing, which is probably unusual for Hollywood, their oldest child was diagnosed with autism at a time when no one really knew what it was. And you know, they still managed to keep a marriage together, keep a family together and be quite happy. Living in Hollywood is quite fake. So I think they're just keeping it real. It's amazing, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Well, they totally respected each other and their careers. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I wonder is that the secret? That you could do what you love to do every day. Are you happier? You're happier?
Speaker 2:Probably, for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's funny because again, when you hear her talking, such lovely lady and Harold's old, mom wasn't impressed with her.
Speaker 2:I know, I think she was a little bit younger than him. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm wondering, were there many rows in their house and at the dinner table? Like where are you going? I think the problem was because she had a hard background, so she was brought up in orphanages or whatever. And another reason we love her, she really created her own reality and that point of view, she did what she needed to do or whatever. But I think his mom felt that she wasn't good enough for herself, but she's actually quite open about saying that.
Speaker 2:But the amazing thing about Harold is he did propose to Lillian and she kind of held off a little and he was saying, I'm going to marry Lillian even though his mom was still saying I don't want this to happen. And it was a good few years down the road before they did ever get married, but Harold was so in love with Lillian and as we see from recordings, she's fabulous lady.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So gorgeous. So anyway, as we mentioned, Lillian was one of the first Hollywood archivists and librarians in Samuel Golden Studios. So she learned her craft under Lelia Alexander, who was the lady she went to volunteer with when she first went to work in the library. Now the Lillian Michelson Library has 7,000 books 1000 periodicals and over a million things from a reference point of view. It's the largest private motion picture library in Hollywood. Pause that. There's just been a massive knock on the door.
Speaker 2:Sure we can edit that out.
Speaker 1:Okay. So now I think I kind of have to go get the door.
Speaker 2:Okay. We'll just edit that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Where were we? So, so this amazing library. Oh yeah. So she started and worked actually with Harold in the studio. She became so good at her job that she came to go to person for any and all questions. But again, she's actually only credited on seven onscreen research credits, which is really hard to believe. It's kind of hard to to take. She has a great attitude to this. So in her opinion, she, when she's talking about it, she says"research is lost in the midst of memory we're the first ones were asked to do anything on a picture when it's really unusual so to speak. And there are so many fits and starts and getting any project off the ground. In fact, to me it's a miracle that any movies ever made and that by the time the completion comes around, we're totally lost from view. It just seems that we do rather useful thing and we should be remembered." And that's one of the reasons we're doing the podcast, did it should be remembered for the work that she's done. And also storyboarding was often uncredited too, which is another story.
Speaker 2:Harold was a fabulous artist. Yeah. Amazing illustrator. And when he started he went to Hollywood first and Lillian was to follow, but he went around to all the studios with his portfolio and illustration drawings- as a sample to show, you know, if they needed anyone that they might give him a call. And in one of his recordings he says that he went around to all the studios and shows his portfolio. Next thing, later that day he got a phone call from one of the directors and he said,"I like these drawings you handed in, can you start to your Monday?" And he says,"yes, of course. But when he arrived, he realized they weren't his drawings at all! He did that because he needed a break.
Speaker 1:You create your own luck I suppose.
Speaker 2:The other guy probably got his, you know.
Speaker 1:Come uppance?
Speaker 2:Well, no, he probably got a job the next Monday.
Speaker 4:Gotcha.
Speaker 5:I brought my stuff around to all the different studio, but one day I get a call. Are you the guy who did the drawings? And I said yes, and it's just, can you come to work Monday? I said, yes. Well when arrived I realised that I never did those drawings. Whoever did those drawings now maybe sells insurance.
Speaker 1:Gosh, that's amazing. I didn't know I wouldn't be able to do that. I'd find it hard to do that. I think great that he did it.
Speaker 2:But I suppose it probably was desperate times. I think he was saying they'd no money. But it's amazing. If that guy was really good, he would have gotten his break. Yeah, we wouldn't be a nice thing. It's an opportunity to, I suppose. He got his break anyway. It's okay. He was a great illustrator.
Speaker 1:So talented. He's just really, really talented. So the reason apparently than a lot of storyboard artists, don't get credited or hadn't been credited is because, like the research, it also happens at the beginning of the film. Because really you're creating a concept as to how that film will be shot. One of the production designers, actually Jim vessel, it says that it's an awkward position because you're working on the highest layer of the film yet you're also below the line so you're not one of the key players as far as everybody else is concerned. However, you're working directly with the producer and we know that as we mentioned, Harold worked directly with Stanley Kubrick and Alfred Hitchcock and was, hauled around on set to work on the Birds by Hitchcock. He had to figure out that famous scene where all the birds appear.
Speaker 2:Actually, I think we know our from the work that we do. Preparation is key. So yeah, going out, fill them in on the action, and casting and crew and it costs a lot of money. To actually have it all planned out beforehand means that it's quicker and reduces the of cost money.
Speaker 1:And he was so good at that because apparently he saved the studios a fortune, you know, the attitude was how can we make it better, but not increase the cost. There was always the most cost effective solution, which is why they loved him. And then his attitude to that"okay, we give the producer so many, solutions, your variations of the drawings, and then they're the ones that choose. They're the ones that put the story together. So as far as he was concerned, it was their story, not his story. But, I think he underplays the debate there.
Speaker 2:Definitely. But I think the joy he got was the drawing and the creation. And after that then, you know, he didn't need someone to pat them on the back, or, I suppose that's the beauty of both of them. That they were happier in their jobs and they didn't need to feed their egos and that's rare tool
Speaker 1:So eventually, anyway, back to Lillian eventually the library became hers. So 1969. That library was facing eviction and Lelia told her that she felt that it should be hers. So you think, okay, how nice. But of course she had to get the money together to buy it. So like a true entrepreneur.(I love this story.) She borrowed the money on Harold's life insurance to buy the library and he said"Go ahead". Can you imagine saying that to your partner."Listen, I'k just got to take some money on your life insurance here".
Speaker 2:But I think they both knew how important was not only to the industry, to people watching films or how the firms are created because you know, you, if you're watching a period drama, if they rocked up in leather gear it wouldn't be right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there'd be something wrong there. Where's my whip?.
Speaker 2:Go forth and whip.
Speaker 1:Then moved it over to AFI. And in 1980 she meets this guy called Francis Ford Coppola. The godfather, etc. And he's so impressed the her that he makes the library be the center of his setup at Zoetrope studios.
Speaker 2:He was obviously the first one, that will not probably the first one that could see it, but I mean the first one to totally capitalize on it. I meAn they were probably all going in using her facilities for nothing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, didn't you say Alfred Hitchcock could turn up there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, she was saying on certain days(in the Netflix documentary where she's being interviewed) that it became the norm. They'd come in and have a cup of tea and then maybe chat, but like we're doing a movie about this, that and the other. And she go, oh yeah, go down to aisle 6, climb the ladder to row 10.
Speaker 1:Can you imagine having an office that's so cool that Hitchcock's walking around. Just, I mean, just the craziest job ever. So she had to research things like keeping it real. So one of the thIngs she loved doing, because she had been raised in an orphanage and she didn't really know much about her jewish faith- she was saying that the the film fiddler on the roof, that's actually how she came to understand the heritage. And so what she had to research was what underwear does Tevye's daughter wear. Because there's a particular scene in the film, where the girls fall back on the bed and you can see their underwear and of course nobody had been filming underwear or taken photographs of underwear, in the 1890's nineties- or the period in which it was such set, she had to go and actually research that. So she'd go to the library, she was saying and picked up a book about it. Which did describe living in a shetl at that time- at the turn of the century. But there was nothing obviously about the underwear or whatever. Actually that'd be kind of creepy if there was something about underwear in a a man's autobiography. Anyway, she was wondering what she was going to do. So she went to sit in the bench at Fairfax and Beverly- which is the jewish section of Los Angeles and she sits there. The these little old ladies are sitting beside her and she started talking about this and that, and getting pictures for certain projects, but she didn't mention the film- and she talks about, does anybody remember what you wore in those days? And she was saying they got so excited about helping her that one little old lady ran back to her apartment. Well, as fast as a little old lady could run and she could out a pattern for her. She was saying during that time they had to make their own underwear. And that is the story of how they got the underwear correct for Fiddler on the Roof.
Speaker 2:That's the level of research for that.
Speaker 1:And then I thought, she's so funny. She was doing research as well for the Scarface film. Al Pacino. She is willing to go on on a private jet, belonging to a drug dealer to go and research that, to get the whole thing right for the film. And course when she told Harold, he was like,"what are you doing?" And she was her. She was like,"well why not?"
Speaker 3:This was the movie scarface. I said to Harold when I get home. I would say I'm going on a private jet to research it. And he'd say you're going alone? And I'd say well why not?
Speaker 1:I mean just so brave.
Speaker 2:They were so carefree and I suppose that's what made them, you know, loveable characters. There was no fear. You know, just do it and they're to everybody so calm.
Speaker 1:They are like the king and queen of hollywood or. So the library became so good because even when they were making the film of the cotton club, her library had all the information from the original cotton club, just going back to the 1930's. Somebody had loved New York, nightclubs, went and photographed everything in the cotton club and when she went to the folder in the library, she had all these amazing photographs. There were no people, because they were taken for research purposes, but everything had a measuring stick so that they knew exactly the size of all the props, etc. Every detail that you could think of. That's some resource. That's just amazing, Isn't it? Like harlem in the thirties. So the library eventually moved from there to Paramount and then onto Dreamworks Animation Studios. So they're the guys that make Shrek and Cars, etc. And you may not be aware of this sidebar but the king and queen of Shrek were named after Lillian and Shrek.
Speaker 2:That story is so good. It's a nice nod, isn't it? Really is.
Speaker 1:And when we see the names first, you're kind of wondering who they were. They're unusual names. Revisiting the birds now when alfred hitchcock asked him to go in 1962 and they had to go to the filmst. He's just so understated about the whole thing and you know, his attitude towards that was he learned a great deal from the master of suspense about how to tell stories visually and took away a valuable lesson from one of the sequences was rejected for being an anti-climax.. Can you imagine that? It's hard to take because you put so much work into those illustrations however he had other ideas for enhancing the scripts. So he went away and did that. And Hitchcock ended up accepting many of his ideas and sequences and the art director says that Harold told us exactly what we were going to see with which lens, what angle the cameras should be pointed. He then worked very closely with Hitchcock's cinematographer Robert Barks, and the production designer, Robert Boyle. So they'd meet up every night in Bob's hotel room to talk about the next day's work and Bob Bark set up up almost every shot in the birds according to Harold's storyboards. So you would wonder, eh, should be a film by Harold Michelson not Alfred Hitchcock. He didn't get any credit for the birds, actually.
Speaker 2:Well it's like the saying. That it takes a village to raise a child. I mean, it doesn't take one person. When the oscar goes to the director, I mean there's 100 people that created it, helped him create it, and I know he's going up accepting it for the majority. They go up and they're thanking their mother or father, you know. It should be lIke someone going up accepting it for, you know, to all the cast, the crew, the. I mean the music can be just as important as too, you know, all the elements need to come together from a movie to be successful. Previous to this he got his other big break. He had done the storyboards for Cecil B DeMill's 1956 biblical epic, the 10 commandments. When you see the drawings now they are actually all the main shots shuts. I mean to take them from his brain, sketch the scene, convince the director or whatever. No, for sure, because as a director, you know yourself and when we're in the creative minds that you can have one view- and then the next person has a completely different view. You mightn't be on the same page.
Speaker 1:Never even thought of that.
Speaker 2:It seems to be the, he actually knew, it's like he probably sit down with the director, got a feel of what they were about and then was able to convey that, because as we said, the 10 commandments is a far stretch from star trek.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So like for it to become normal, for the visual concepts for two completely different film periods.
Speaker 1:Yeah. All the things that are involved. So Harold had to do the drawings for this(Cecil B Demille)- on demand actually. And then apparently that got passed through a series of go betweens and eventually went into the hands of Demille, who(I thought this was awful) insisted on not having any direct contact with Harold. The guy who was designing his key images and this collaboration was kept really on the downlow as if the storyboards were to DeMille a cheat sheet or you know, a bit of a shameful secret. You know, I think it's great. You have this guy who can help you.
Speaker 2:How could there be one person can create a whole new movie. It's a collaboration. One person does not a movie make.
Speaker 1:Yes. Love it. Then the one which is kind of funny and cool at the same time, is Mrs. Robinson in the graduate, again Harold did the storyboards for this. So who played her? Ann Margaret?
Speaker 2:No. Anne bancroft. This is dustin hoffman and Anne Bancroft in the Graduate. So of course Dustin Hoffman is as a student about to be seduced by Mrs. Robinson.
Speaker 6:My husband will be gone for several hours. Oh my god. What's going on? You got me into your house. You give me a drink, your music is on. Now you start opening up your personal life to me and tell me your husband won't be home for hours. This is wrong Mrs. Robinson. You're trying to seduce me, aren't you?
Speaker 1:I think the original cougar?
Speaker 2:In film that hadn't been done before actually, maybe B movies not not mainstream.
Speaker 1:Was it the James Bond film Skyfall, or was it the last film where they had 51 year old actress(who's fabulous) and everybody was talking about it- that she had been the oldest bond girl ever. So even as recently as that, it's unusual to have an older woman playing a sex kitten. So Harold had been thinking about this was for a while. How to get some excitement into the shot. And I think he had spent a lot of time thinking about this and you know, do we just move from dustin hoffman to Anne Bancroft, or you know, how boring is that for the scene? So he came up with this brilliant idea of showing leg as a sort of triangle, and then just in the triangle Dustin Hoffman appears.
Speaker 2:You know something risque is going, but I suppose it was very cleverly done to show rather than just showing Anne Bancroft in the nude. It was showing suggestive shots really well so that they never had to just show her in the nude.
Speaker 1:Just thinking this is the 2nd time we've talked about people being naked. There's a bit of a theme here!
Speaker 2:It is a cinematic masterpiece. It's amazing, but it was huge at the time. It was the number one box office hit. Dustin hoffman was the star of the time, you know, the magic number one.
Speaker 1:The lover boy? The poster boy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You just wonder how many poses dId lillian have to do to get that right? She has such a great sense of humor. She said,(about that scene)"yeah, he was always a leg man". He felt it worked anyway because he got the feeling immediately have a sexual escapades, which you do. Even looking at it now, you definitely get it. That was just an amazing, amazing couple. They have worked together for years and lots of films and didn't fall out. Unfortunately then Harold died in 2007 with dementia. He was a resident in the Motion Picture and Television Country House, which is actually where Lillian now resides. So she is still with us, this amazing character. Just such a brilliant attitude to life, and such a positive person. So definitely check out the film about Harold and Lillian Michelson a Hollywood love story which is available on netflix. So that's the amazing story of Harold and Lillian Michelson. Ta ta for now or#ttfn
Speaker 2:And Feck it,just do it.# fijdi