Series 65 and Series 66 Exam: Time Value of Money

the fundamental principles of the time value of money, focusing specifically on the concepts of future value and net present value. They explain that an asset's worth changes over time because current capital can be invested to earn simple or compound interest. Educational materials from Wikipedia and BYU detail how these calculations assist in personal finance planning, such as retirement saving and evaluating investment "sacrifices." Complementary video transcripts demonstrate practical applications, such as using Excel functions to determine if a project's projected cash flows justify its initial costs. Collectively, these resources emphasize that discounting future returns is a more accurate way to measure wealth creation than simpler methods like the payback rule. Detailed formulas are provided to show how inflation, compounding frequency, and interest rates influence the long-term growth of financial assets.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What if I told you that um simply counting your money is actually well, it's the worst possible way to figure out how much wealth you actually have.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Yeah, it sounds completely ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Right. It sounds absurd.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

But in the world of corporate finance, a dollar you're holding in your hand today is, I mean, it's a fundamentally different currency than a dollar you might get tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Absolutely. They look identical, but mathematically, they operate in totally different universes.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Aaron Powell And you know, if you're currently staring down the barrel of the Series 65 or the Series 66 exams, getting comfortable with that alternate reality isn't just like a helpful tip. It is entirely mandatory.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Yeah, you are looking at a financial landscape that's incredibly dynamic. And let's be honest, it's a bit intimidating.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Oh, totally intimidating. Yeah. Which is why we're bringing out the heavy artillery today. We're doing a deep dive into this massive stack of materials. We've got university finance lectures from uh BYU and CSUN, uh insights from the Corporate Finance Institute, real estate valuation breakdowns from 1031 crowdfunding, and even this incredibly practical at spiral lesson.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

It's a lot of ground to cover.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

It is. But our mission for this deep dive is to take these dense, you know, textbook concepts, stuff like capital budgeting, valuation, working capital, and really just decode the actual mechanics. We want you walking into that testing center, actually understanding the underlying logic, not just, you know, trying to remember some flashcard you memorized at 2 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Right. And to build that intuitive understanding, we really have to start at the absolute bedrock. I mean, before we can even try to evaluate whether a multimillion dollar corporate project is worth doing, we have to understand the physical laws of this financial universe. Aaron Powell Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

So where do we start?

SPEAKER_00 1:42

We have to start with the time value of money. TVM.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Uh right. The concept that time literally bends the value of money.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Precisely. The core principle is just that a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. And there are really two mechanisms driving this. First, you have inflation, which acts like, well, like a slow leak. It just erodes the purchasing power of that dollar over time. And second, you have opportunity cost. If you have a dollar in your hand today, you possess the ability to actually deploy it, you know, to invest it and earn a return. So a dollar arriving tomorrow represents a missed opportunity today.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Yeah, and the source material from BYU highlights this legendary quote from Albert Einstein on that exact phenomenon. He supposedly called compound interest the eighth wonder of the world, because it's quote, interest on interest.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Yeah, that's a great way to put it. And let's actually look at the math from those BYU lectures to prove Einstein right.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Okay, lay it on me.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Imagine you invest $5,000. Okay. And you're promised an 8% return every single year for 15 years.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Aaron Powell Okay, I'm following.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Now, if you only earn simple interest, meaning you just get 8% on that original $5,000, that's $400 a year. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Right. $400 times $15. So you end up with what, $11,000 after 15 years?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Exactly. $11,000.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Aaron Ross Powell Which, I mean, that still feels like a win, right? More than doubled your money.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Aaron Powell It definitely feels like a win until you unlock the actual compounding effect. If that annual interest is reinvested, allowing it to earn its own interest year over year, that same $5,000 at 8% doesn't yield $11,000. Aaron Powell Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

What does it yield?

SPEAKER_00 3:23

It yields $15,861.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Aaron Powell Whoa. So wait, that extra $4,861 is just it's just the snowball rolling downhill, gathering its own snow.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Aaron Powell That's exactly it. It's the interest-earning interest.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

That is wild. And you know, for the exams, you really have to know the specific verbs for moving money backward and forward along this timeline. Like taking present money and projecting it forward with that compound interest. That operation is called capitalization to find the future value.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Aaron Powell Right. But you also have to be able to run the math in reverse.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Aaron Powell Taking a massive future sum of money and like stripping away the assumed interest to find out what it's worth right now.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yes. And that operation is called discounting to find the present value.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

It's basically like a financial time machine. You know, you're taking a giant pile of future money, running it through this discounting machine, and shrinking it down so it fits into your wallet in today's dollars.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

I like that analogy.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yeah. And the BYU materials show this time machine beautifully. Say your goal is to have $500,000 in 40 years. Assuming a 6% return, you just punch that into the present value formula, and it tells you that you only need to invest $48,611 today.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

And the time machine does the rest.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

That single calculation perfectly isolates why money in the future is functionally cheaper. But uh before we leave this baseline concept, there is a technical distinction the CSUN lectures highlight that is just it's a notorious trap for exam takers.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Oh yeah. The APR versus APY thing. Annual percentage rate versus annual percentage yield.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Right. Let's break down the CSUN example. Say a company borrows $1,000 for three months and they agree to pay back the principal plus $30 in interest.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Aaron Powell Okay, $30 on a thousand bucks for a quarter of the year.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Aaron Powell Right. So if you just multiply that by four quarters, it calculates out to a 12% APR. It seems perfectly straightforward. Yeah, totally does. It seems straightforward, but it mathematically ignores the frequency of compounding. It just it pretends the periods don't stack on top of each other. Right. When you plug that exact same scenario into the APY formula, which forces the math to acknowledge the compounding that happens quarter by quarter the effective rate, the true cost of that loan is actually 12.6%.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Okay. So if I'm understanding this, APY isn't just like an alternative formula. It's the physical reality of what is actually hitting the bank account.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

But I have to ask, because you know, banks love to advertise a super high APY on their savings accounts and then a low APR on their loans. So is APY ultimately just a marketing trick to make their products look better?

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Well, the banks are absolutely weaponizing the math for marketing purposes, yeah. But APY itself is not a trick. It's not. No, it is the truer mathematical reflection of reality. For an investor or, you know, someone sitting for the Series 65, APY is the actual realized truth of your money's growth or cost. It just refuses to ignore the compounding periods.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Okay. Okay. So we've established the ground rules. We know how to value a single dollar across time using our discounting time machine, and we know compounding bends that value. Right. But a business isn't just moving single dollars around, you know? How do managers use this time-traveling math to decide if a massive new factory or like a huge software project is actually worth doing?

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Aaron Powell So this is the pivot from theory to application. We are entering capital budgeting. And when a corporation analyzes a potential project, the ultimate metric they use is net present value. NPV.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, the corporate finance institute materials are incredibly clear on this. NPV is like the undisputed gold standard for figuring out if a project creates wealth or destroys it.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

It really is.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Aaron Powell But the It'spira YouTube lesson introduces this interesting complication. In the real world, a lot of executives actually prefer a shortcut called the payback method, just because of its sheer simplicity.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Aaron Powell Yeah, it is simple, which is exactly why it's fundamentally flawed.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

It'spira uses this brilliant example to expose the flaw. Imagine a project requires a $400 upfront investment today. Okay. And over the next three years, it's projected to generate $150 in cash flow annually.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Aaron Powell Meaning the total cash coming back in is $450.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Right. Now the payback method only asks one question: how long until I recover my initial $400? Aaron Powell Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

So at $150 a year, you get your money back in about what, 2.66 years?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Exactly. So looking exclusively through the lens of the payback method, this project is a total winner. It pays for itself before the three-year timeline is even up.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

But wait, that completely ignores the financial time machine we just built.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

That's like it's like counting how fast a friend pays you back for pizza while completely ignoring the fact that inflation made the dollars they eventually handed back to you worth way less than the ones you originally lent them. You cannot treat a dollar received in year three exactly the same as a dollar spent in year zero.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Which is precisely why NPV is superior. You see, NPV doesn't just count the cash, it weighs it.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Okay, I like that. It weighs it.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yeah. It takes those three future cash flows of $150 and actively discounts them back to today's value using a specific cost of capital. So once you strip out the time cost of waiting for that money, NPV proves that a seemingly profitable project might actually be losing the company money in real terms.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Wow. Okay, there is a catch here though. Alongside NPV, the sources dedicate a massive amount of text to IRR, the internal rate of return. Yeah. And there's a critical definition that you just have to memorize here for the exam. The word internal means the calculation entirely excludes external factors.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Oh, put a huge star next to that in your notes. IRR calculates the exact discount rate that would force a project to break even.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Meaning it forces the NPV to hit zero.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Exactly. But to find that breakeven percentage, IRR assumes an isolated vacuum. It completely excludes the risk-free rate, it ignores inflation entirely, and it excludes the firm's changing cost of borrowing.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Wait, if IRR completely ignores external realities like, you know, rampant inflation or the cost of capital, isn't it operating in a dangerous fantasy world? Why would a financial analyst ever use a metric that pretends inflation just doesn't exist?

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Well, it's really a matter of function. IRR isn't designed to be the final arbiter, you know, it's a comparative baseline.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah. It gives a manager a single clean percentage that represents the project's inherent earning power before all those messy, fluctuating external variables are applied. It's basically a screening tool to rank options internally. Like project A has a 20% IRR, project B has a 10% IRR. Gotcha. But you always use NPV to make the final yes or no decision because NPV forces the math to deal with reality.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Aaron Powell Okay, so let's say NPV tells us this $400 project is a home run. It's approved. But a positive NPV calculation doesn't magically put $400 in our bank account to go buy the equipment. We actually have to go get that money. So do we borrow it or do we sell a piece of the company?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Aaron Powell Right. Now we're zooming out from the individual project to the broader capital structure. We are looking at how the entire corporation fundamentally funds itself to maximize its overall value. And a firm operates with two main buckets of capital debt, which means issuing bonds or taking loans, and equity, which means issuing stock.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Aaron Powell Yeah. According to the CSUN material, the entire game here is finding the optimal capital structure. Like that perfect razor-thin balance of debt and equity that minimizes the company's WACC, the weighted average cost of capital. Because if you lower your cost of capital, you maximize your overall stock price.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Aaron Powell Yeah, that balancing act relies on the fact that debt is generally cheaper than equity.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Why is that?

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Well, bondholders get paid first in a bankruptcy, so they take on less risk, which means they demand a lower return. Plus, the interest payments on debt are usually tax deductible for the corporation.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Right, the tax shield.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Exactly. The problem is if a company takes on too much debt, its financial risk skyrockets. A single bad quarter could trigger bankruptcy, and that terrifies equity investors, which drives the stock price down. So to calculate where this mathematical tipping point is, finance professionals use something called the Hamada equation.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Okay, the Hamada equation. The sources mention this, but it gets pretty dense. How does this actually work mechanically?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Aaron Powell The Hamada equation is essentially a tool to figure out exactly how much risk you are adding to the company when you take on debt. It revolves around beta, which is just a metric used to measure a stock's volatility compared to the broader market.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Okay, beta. Got it.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

So the equation helps managers calculate the difference between an unlevered beta, meaning the baseline risk of the company, if it had absolutely zero debt, and a levered beta, which is the amplified risk once debt is introduced.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Okay, let me make sure I'm visualizing this right. If a company has zero debt, its costs are relatively flexible. If sales drop, profit drops, but the company survives, right? That's unlevered beta. But if they take on massive loans, they now have these massive fixed interest payments that absolutely must be paid every single month, no matter what. So if sales drop now, those fixed payments act like an anchor, just dragging them underwater much faster.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

That is the perfect analogy. The debt amplifies the volatility, pushing the levered beta higher.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

By plugging different debt to equity ratios into the Hamada equation, managers can isolate the exact level of debt where the tax benefits are perfectly offset by the rising risk. And at that point, that is the optimal capital structure.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Aaron Powell Now there is a massive conceptual trap hidden in the CSUN notes right here. It explicitly states that maximizing EPS earnings per share is not the primary goal of a firm. And further, the maximum EPS usually does not occur at the same capital structure where the stock price is maximized.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

This is perhaps one of the most vital concepts for the exam because it defies conventional financial news. Right. EPS is simply an accounting metric. It is total net income divided by the number of outstanding shares. And because it's just a fraction, management can actually artificially pump it up using debt.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Okay, walk me through the mechanics of that pump.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Sure. Let's say a company has 10 shares outstanding and makes $10 in profit. The EPS is $1 per share.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Simple enough.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Then management goes to the bank, takes out a massive loan, and uses that cash to buy back and retire five of those shares.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Aaron Powell Okay, so they still make $10 in profit, but now it's only divided by five shares. So the EPS instantly doubles to $2 a share.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

But wait, doesn't Wall Street trade heavily on EPS surprises? Like, why wouldn't maximizing EPS be the ultimate goal if that's the number everyone stares at on earnings day?

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Aaron Powell Because sophisticated investors look at the entire balance sheet, not just the EPS ratio. Yes, the EPS doubled, but the company is now drowning in the debt used to buy those shares. Remember the Hamada equation.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Aaron Powell Delivered beta. The risk of bankruptcy just went through the roof.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Precisely. The cost of that added risk eventually outweighs the optical benefit of the higher EPS. And the actual stock price will plummet. Maximizing firm value is a holistic goal. Maximizing EPS is just, you know, financial engineering if it's done blindly.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Aaron Ross Powell That distinction between accounting optics and actual firm value is crucial. And it ties directly into how the market interprets corporate actions, which the CSUN notes call signaling.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

If a firm decides to issue new stock to raise capital, the market almost universally views this as a negative signal and the stock price drops.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

The underlying theory here is information asymmetry. Management always knows more about the internal health and future prospects of the company than the public does.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

It makes me think of like a restaurant watering down the soup. If a restaurant needs to sell more bowls of soup but they don't want to buy more ingredients, they just pour water into the pot. Everyone still gets a bowl, but it's thinner. When a company issues new stock, they're watering down the ownership. They are implicitly telling the market, hey, we think our stock is currently priced so high that we'd rather sell pieces of the company than go to a bank and borrow money.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Exactly. Management is signaling that they believe the stock is currently overvalued. Investors decode that signal instantly, they start selling, and the price drops to reflect both the diluted ownership and the management's lack of confidence.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

So we've successfully navigated the long-term strategy. We used NPV to pick a project, we balanced our debt and equity to find the optimal WACC. But none of that matters if the company can't keep the lights on tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

They still have to pay the electric bill and make payroll. So how do managers handle the immediate daily survival of the business?

SPEAKER_00 16:11

We are zooming in from the macro level of capital structure to the micro level of asset financing and working capital management.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

The sources divide the battlefield here into permanent assets and temporary assets. Permanent assets are things you plan to hold for more than a year, your factory, your foundational baseline inventory.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

And then temporary assets are things held for less than a year, like a massive buildup of inventory right before the holiday season. The absolute golden rule here is that permanent assets should be financed by long-term debt or equity.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

And the CSUN text outlines three specific approaches to financing these assets. The first is the Maudit approach, which is also called maturity matching. This is exactly what it sounds like. You match the lifespan of the asset with the lifespan of the liability.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Aaron Powell It's the equivalent of getting a 30-year mortgage for a permanent asset like a house. That is maturity matching. It would be financial suicide to buy a $500,000 house on a credit card that requires full payment in 30 days. The short-term liability would instantly crush you.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Yet some companies do choose to take calculated risks. That brings us to the second strategy, the aggressive approach. This involves using more short-term, non-spontaneous debt to finance some of those permanent assets.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Let's define non-spontaneous debt quickly because that term gets thrown around a lot. Spontaneous debt is basically the natural grace period you get from suppliers like accounts payable that just spontaneously generate when you order inventory.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Non-spontaneous debt means you actually had to go out, negotiate a specific short-term loan with a bank, and pay interest on it.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Precisely. And using negotiated short-term bank loans to fund a long-term factory is aggressive because short-term interest rates are highly volatile. You're forced to constantly renegotiate and refinance those loans. It's incredibly stressful, but if short-term rates remain lower than long-term rates, it can be cheaper.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Okay, what about the third option?

SPEAKER_00 18:07

The third strategy is the conservative approach. This is where a company uses long-term debt and equity to finance all permanent assets plus a large chunk of their temporary assets. It's incredibly safe, but expensive because long-term capital generally demands higher returns.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

And this introduces a very specific timeline you will definitely need to calculate on the exam. The cash conversion cycle.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

The cash conversion cycle measures the exact number of days it takes a company to turn its initial cash investment in raw materials back into cash sitting in their bank account from a customer sale.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Let's walk through the actual math from figure 15 to 3 in the source material to see how this cycle actually breathes. Sounds good. First, you have the inventory conversion period. Let's say it takes the company 60 days to buy the raw materials, build a widget, and get it sold. Next, you add the average collection period. The customer bought it, but they bought it on credit, and it takes another 60 days for them to actually pay the invoice. So we are currently at 120 days total.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

However, the company doesn't pay its own suppliers on day one either. That natural grace period we mentioned earlier, the payables deferral period. Let's say the company's suppliers give them 40 days to pay for the raw materials. You subtract that 40 days of grace from the 120-day timeline.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

So 60 days to build and sell, plus 60 days waiting to collect, minus the 40 days we stalled our own suppliers, that equals an 80-day cash conversion cycle.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

For 80 straight days, the company's own cash is physically trapped inside the operational cycle. To survive those 80 days without bouncing payroll checks, large, highly rated firms often issue commercial paper.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Wait, why use commercial paper instead of just walking into a bank and getting a standard business loan to cover the 80 days?

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Because traditional bank loans require collateral, endless paperwork, and higher interest rates. Commercial paper bypasses the bank entirely. It consists of unsecured, short-term promissory notes sold directly to investors.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Unsecured.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah, meaning there's no collateral backing it up. So only massive corporations with flawless credit ratings can issue it. But for those giants, it is an incredibly fast, cheap way to bridge that 80-day cash gap.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

But looking at that 80-day timeline, though, for nearly three months, the company is basically holding its breath, waiting for cash to materialize.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Oh, a negative cash conversion cycle is the absolute holy grail of work and capital management. Look at a company like Amazon. They collect the cash from your credit card the exact second you click buy. Their collection period is zero. Right. But because of their massive market power, they might not pay the supplier of that item for 60 or 90 days. The cycle is negative. Amazon's own suppliers are effectively financing Amazon's day-to-day operations for free.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

That's insane.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

It is. But for most traditional businesses, an 80-day cycle is the reality they have to manage.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

It completely changes how you view a business. You stop looking at the products and start looking at the plumbing. Let's summarize the journey we've just taken. Because if you are prepping for the series 65 and 66, this is the architecture you need. We started by bending time, using present value and compounding, to prove that a dollar today is the most powerful tool you have.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

We moved into evaluating projects, showing why the NPV's financial time machine is vastly superior to the blind simplicity of the payback method. We balanced the scales of risk with the Hamadi equation to find the optimal capital structure, proving that artificially pumping EPS with debt is a trap.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

A huge trap.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

And finally, we looked at how companies actually survive the daily grind by managing their asset financing and their cash conversion cycle.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

The goal here was really to expose the underlying mechanics. When you understand how these financial labors literally pull on each other, you aren't just memorizing formulas. You are learning how to diagnose a balance sheet.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Before you get back to your flashcards, we want to leave you with one final thought to mull over. We've seen today that net present value relies incredibly heavily on a predetermined discount rate to predict the future over decades. And we've seen that the internal rate of return calculates break-even points while ignoring external realities like inflation entirely. It makes you wonder how fragile are these rigid textbook mathematical models when the real world experiences sudden, unpredictable spikes in inflation or massive global supply chain shocks.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

It is a phenomenal critical thinking prompt. I mean, the math looks flawless on a spreadsheet, but the real world is infinitely complex and entirely unpredictable. Recognizing the limitations of these models is really what separates a good analyst from a great one.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Keep that fragility in mind as you review. You absolutely have the mechanical insights now to confidently tackle these concepts. When you sit down for the exam and see a wall of dense financial jargon, don't panic.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Just take a breath.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Exactly. Just look for the underlying logic we broke down today. Trust the mechanics of the time machine, understand the flow of the cash, and you'll do great. Keep studying and stay curious.