Unlocking the value of a degree in classical music

We're back!! But we're going deep this time.. Who is a degree in opera or ANY music degree for that matter really for? What's the point of all of this? And where does the ever elusive "YAP career track" fall into all of this? It's all here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And I know that there might be like like young people that this like triggers are upset.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

But that's the thing. Everyone assumes that they are the lottery winner.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Yeah. Put your head up.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Pick your head up, Queen. Put your crown back on. Hi guys. Oh my goodness. How's it going?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Yeah, it's good. How are you?

SPEAKER_04 0:38

I'm good. I'm good. It's great. Closed the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

Yeah. And it was fun.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Closed the show. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

And you're feeling good about it.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

No P S P S D. Oh showed me.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

P T S D? Oh, P S D.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yeah, PSD.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Yeah. I I think I definitely did. I think that's inevitable.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

This is like a like a depthy sidebar, but like normalize PSD. Like it like what we do is really like dopaminergic. And so like when you have a dopamergic high, like you will have a low when that's taken.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

And I do think that's I've had less recently. The last couple shows I've done, I haven't had PSD.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Oh good.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

I really didn't for Phantom. I really didn't. Really? That surprises me. Yeah. No, I didn't for Phantom.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

I g maybe it would be more so if it wasn't concert.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Well, it's just like no, it's just like the the high intensity of it. It was mostly relief. Because like you wear the mask, you can't crack, you can't forget your words. You know. So it was like it was a little bit less. Like I miss those people a lot, but actually like I'm sad because the thing's over. I don't have as much of that.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

That's hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Recently.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

I was looking at my calendar though, and I was like, scrolling through.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

I was like your pad calendar.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

I was like, hold on. I don't have anything. The very last week of June. I was like, I don't have anything.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Oh. The very last week of June?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Or the the like last week of June, first week of July.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I'm like, I don't have anything. Good.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Or maybe it was It might be hard, but that'll be good.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

I was like, I don't have anything. And I was like, oh I need to do something.

SPEAKER_04 2:24

Oh no. Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

It's hard to do it. But it's like it's like literally four open days in my calendar. I'm like, oh I need to like schedule plans with friends. Yeah, I got no, I got a little bit of feeling, and that's what I'm gonna do, and that's gonna be really nice. But I've not like had an open like chunk of time in my calendar in a while. I was like, this will be nice.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

It will be nice. That's kind of me sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

No, I've definitely have had that. I definitely have that. Yeah. 100%. That's beautiful. 100%. Oh and and uh filling time so you don't have to think. Doom scrolling.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

Oh yeah. Hi.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Doom scrolling. Doom scrolling can't be singing TikToks.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

You don't want to go back then.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Not doom scrolling.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

You don't want to go back then.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

It's great. Really good offer facts.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

Y'all remember 2020 when all anyone did was make dancing videos to present facts and information on the screen. Anyone remember that? Because I used to do that.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

It's funny that you say it like that. It's fine.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

They're fine.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

For the time it was like, yeah, of course you did that. Like it was it made sense back then, and now the scene has just changed so much. It's so different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

That is that was great. What you did was great. Yeah. I've started scrolling past everything opera related.

SPEAKER_05 3:52

Good for you.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

And somebody with an opera with an opera podcast, it feels weird to do that. But it's so weird.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

I'm just like I had an era of that actually.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I'm just like, I'm not gonna I don't care. And it in the past it was like anybody that was online like talking about it, I would like sit and and watch it, you know. I'm like, oh, what do these people have to say? Like to the point where recently I saw this thing that's like like Mozart arias for auditions in my on my like explore page. I clicked it. Yeah. I've done three big ass Mozart Mozart operas. Like I know the arias, the Mozart arias everybody's doing in the auditions. Like, why did I click on that?

SPEAKER_04 4:34

Yeah, yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Yeah. And I'm and I I clicked on it, and I was like, why did I click on this? And it was like everything I know, I'm like, yeah, why am I scrolling through this? And like that's awesome. And like, yeah, like this, like sometimes I'll watch singing stuff, but not even recently. You know, it's just like it's so it's so different. And like that's what I thought was cool about you, because you were one of the first people to do it.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

And it was awesome.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

That means so much. It was awesome. Yeah. It means a lot.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Oh, for real.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

If I'm being honest, there's times where I feel because the reason I started my page was because I, or just like any presence on the internet, was because I wanted to be like this is very Kara Rose de Pietro of me. But um, I kind of wanted to like exist as like for the people that were going into music degrees.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Kara Rose.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Kara Rose de Pietro. She was a big thing. Yes, I love her so much. I'm such a big fan. Yes, I love you. But now she's got a brown bob. Um rebrand. That was really cute. Um, but anyway, she um she's mentioned starting her page because she wanted to exist for like the younger version of herself that didn't have anyone to look up to online that did what she did for musical theater. And I started mine because I remembered being at the end of my high school time and knowing I was going into vocal performance, but like not knowing anything about the degree track. And so I was like, oh well, I want to make videos that like would help them kind of know what to expect or like learn things about opera because I didn't even know things about opera going into that degree. Yeah. So serious.

SPEAKER_05 6:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

And like I was like, oh well, like maybe if I'm making things that will help like the general public learn things about opera, because I love opera, yeah, like that'll help the industry because I just care about it. And I think I kind of organically got a following of musicians, which was which is great. Um, and so I was like, oh well, what do like actual musicians want to see? And then I got all like convoluted and like, what do people want to see? Which like who cares? Like, that's not my job to ask you guys, like that's my job to figure out, and it's fun to figure it out, but like I don't know. I there's a part of me that kind of wants to go back to like, oh hey, like people that are starting performance degrees. Here's like some things you wouldn't expect about like what they expect in auditions for opera, like, where do you actually go for gigs? Because I was actually talking to a friend, um, and sh she was kind of made to feel dumb at like the institution that she went to. Like, she was like asking this other soprano, like, hey, like, so like where do you get gigs and like where do you audition? And this like other soprano was like mean to her about it and was like, Oh, you don't know already? Like, for real. Like, it sounds like it's out of a movie or a sitcom, but like genuinely she was like rude to her about it, and she's like, Oh, well, like I don't know, like, I literally don't know. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Yeah, and there's no reason for that.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Right, right, whatever. But I'm like, oh, there's that that's like a real thing that I didn't really grasp all of my how does the industry work stuff until grad school because my undergrad was very insulated almost. It was very like, well, you like classical music, just like put on a recital, like perform in the general recitals and pick songs you like and rep that sounds fun for you, and you didn't necessarily learn much about the industry. I remember I kept pushing, like they would ask for feedback on what kind of courses do you want in the curriculum? You got a hair on the mic?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yeah, it's like a lot. I don't think I don't know. Okay, it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Maybe it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

But I remember I would ask, like, oh, can we either like have professionals in the industry come in and like teach us things about how the industry works, or like, can we have a class about how to make money as a musician? Yeah. And none of that came about within my time. I don't know if they've changed the degree track at all, but um and it's no shade, like I don't really care, and I'm actually incredibly grateful that I was kind of insulated from that world and that culture.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Which is is a vocal performance degree, is music school art school or is it a trade school?

SPEAKER_02 8:36

That is a great question.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

And I mean we could go in forever with that. And I've sort of come to the opinion that it's it should be an art school and it should be less about the actual trait. You should do the trade stuff on your own.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

But interesting.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

There's been like some talk about what's the value of a music degree. And that's a whole other thing.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

I don't know how much you want to go down that. Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

I I'm willing to I'm willing to br to breach it lightly enough to say this. Like, my mom was at like a family gathering, um, and she had like these like distant relatives or whatever, they were like, Oh yeah, like our son, like he's getting into the arts and any or and everything. Like, do you have any advice on how to get him out of that? You know?

SPEAKER_00 9:18

And um, that's funny how to get him out of that.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Yeah, and my mom, she was like, I felt bad, I didn't quite like know what to say because like obviously I supported you fully in doing what you want to do. I love you, mom. Thank you very much. I I love Julie Kid, she's the best. Um, but like she's like, I didn't really know what to say, and I was like, Do you actually like want to hear my thoughts on it? And she was like, Yeah, so I like told her, I was like, I'm of the belief that, like, of course, like in American culture, it's like you go to school to get a degree that will make you money, and that's like of course, like a valid thought for the most part. But there's another vein of thought that is no matter what degree you get, the experience of going to school and gaining skills by going to school is valuable, yeah, no matter what degree track it is.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Yeah, and I mean I even even not valuable, just like I think I think it's like you go to trade school to get a job, you go to university to become a better person, become a more educated person. And that's it. And that's where the that's where I'm sort of like, what what does music school fall on? Because like my school treats it a lot like a trade. Like we had the we had an Agma representative come into one of the classes, did all the resumes.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Wow, see, I wanted that.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Yeah. And it was like, well, and and I mean part of my problem with that is like uh I'm in my second year of my master's degree, I have all this stuff now. Yeah. You know, like if you don't buy now, it's like Oh, you're talking in your master's.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

I thought you were talking at um at your undergrad. Oh my god, really?

SPEAKER_00 10:48

No, my undergrad was was Oh well then our experiences were very similar to grad school. My undergrad was definitely a trade school because I got a music ed degree and it felt like that. Like it felt like this is the skills that you need for the job, and you'll get a job at the end of it. You know? And there's there's value to both, but it but it makes a big difference how you think about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Yes. There's like but even like let's like hop out of the music thing for a second. Like, say you go to trade school, say you go to university, no matter what it is that you've decided to study, you will gain skills, and I'm talking like whatever the skills are for life through whatever you're doing. And it's not even about like, oh, you've gone to like go do this like specific set of education. It's like you come out of yeah, I'll hop back into a music degree. You come out of an acting degree, you come out of a theater degree, you come out of a music degree with like insane like public speaking skills almost, or like these certain social skills of like, oh, you have to show up on time to rehearsal, or like be getting used to like a more time-demanding schedule. Um, like expectations of collaborating with one.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

You I would say the biggest skill you get out of a music degree is like collaboration because you get experience and skills out of whatever you do. That's what I'm saying. And that's the value of the degree.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

It all makes you hireable for whatever you want to do. I mean, I know certain skills are like for like marketing, like, yeah, you need the marketing degree, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 12:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

But I think that is the value of the degree because if you look at percentages of like people that are getting hired, um, regardless of what the degree type is, theater people stay booked and employed. Music people stay booked and employed when it comes to like making an income. Like, we're usually very desirable candidates for hiring. So for people to say, like, well, there's no point in going to music school, like, what a waste of money, what a waste of a degree. It's not because you've given your child the autonomy to decide what they wanted to study for four years, and you understood, oh, them deciding to dedicate themselves to anything is a valuable pursuit that will ultimately get them hired for anything they want to do.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

So that's kind of my thought on it. Um, and I it maybe there's like a s a privileged like thought to that too. Um, I understand there are certain parents that have the thought, like, there are certain things they want for my child, and they made sacrifices to come in this country or whatever it is, but it's dependent on whatever you're talking to.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah, I mean, I think now it's like like one of my best friends, the one of the best friends that I went to kindergarten with all the way through college, like he got uh he got a economics degree and um some something else. It was a it was another like like like a double major? It was it was like something like mathematics or something like it was it was just two things that are like yeah, that's like peop you hear that and you're like, yeah, that's uh something that'll get you a job. It was like it was like economics and something else. It might have been political science. I don't remember. But um and you know, he had a hard time finding a job. And he and he he told me it's like, you know, the the whole thing was like they cut a lot of the internships because of all the stuff with the government and like you know, I'm not gonna get into all that, but he was like having a hard time, and he just now just now found a job, uh, you know, a couple or or like something that's like salaried.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

But it's like, you know, he had just as much of a hard time as as I did with the with a music degree, you know. So like I think the the landscape of of all of it now is like where you have to be like you have to really ask yourself, am I getting a degree that's going to give me a job out of this? If yes, then that's cool. Like you'll get that and you'll get the experience of all those the soft skills and stuff you said. Or am I getting a degree that is about the giving me the time and the tools to explore this thing that I really love and become a more well-rounded person. Yep. And both those are are super valuable, but it's like I think I think that is the question that people get high schoolers need to consider.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

I certainly was not.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Because yeah, because and and like I s I mean, I wasn't really thinking a whole lot. I was just like, I like to sing and Yeah, and I wanted to spend more time doing it. It's like I like to sing, and I looked at all the people who like to sing and they in in my little town and they're all music teachers. So that's what I did. And luckily I love teaching. Luckily that that that's my truth.

SPEAKER_05 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

So um that worked out for me. But like, you know, if somebody who had a little more experience, and it's like, yeah, I do want to actually dedicate four years to like doing this thing and getting experience and and becoming a more well well-rounded, well-read, thoughtful person, even though it may not get even though I may not be able to get a specific job in whatever degree you've gotten. Yeah, like like acknowledging that at the end of this I cannot go to the Metropolitan Opera, put in my resume, them see my degree, and put me on stage, you know?

SPEAKER_02 16:07

And I know that there might be like like young people that this like triggers or upsets because if I'll keep it so real, if my like 18 or 19-year-old self was listening to me talk about like, oh, like degrees and like what can you actually get from your degree, they would probably be really triggered and upset by some of the things that I just said that's like, oh yeah, well you have to work some other job after this. Yeah, but that is the reality. If you want to have your own apartment, if you want to live on your own and like not necessarily live with folks right away, you have to go get a job in some other field. Because I mean, I live in the Chicagoland area. There's opportunities abound here, yeah, but even then those opportunities are not well paying enough.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Unless you get really lucky, unless you hit the lottery.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Yeah. But that's the thing. There it is.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Everyone assumes that they are the lottery winner.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

That's the problem.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah, I never did. Yeah. Well, no, no, no. I thought I wouldn't. I don't know what that says about my mindset.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

No, and that's fine, and that's fine. And I and I think that's good and potentially.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

I didn't think that I would hit the lottery, but I did think that it would be a little bit more of a And I don't want to say it. A little bit more of a doable sequential thing.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

That is what I mean more so.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Now I realize like it took me grad school to realize that sometimes that is the lottery. Like going through the young artist program track is the lottery. But I think when you're in university, because of the fact that they're like, okay, we know these people are sinking all this money into a degree, and the traditional way of thinking for a degree is degree equals job in chosen field, no matter what. They're not talking about the well-rounded whatever.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah. This is like whatever. That's a separate thing.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

However, like they know that they've promised parents something, they know they've promised the person getting the degree something, and so they tout, yes, it's totally possible to like, and it is like that isn't a lie. You can go down the traditional path and you can go to like the specific young artist program that's like or summer program that's like perfect, and then it gets you to young artist program, and then you win the MetComp, and like whatever it is, that is a thing, it does happen, but they are not talking about what the path can look like if it's not that. But 70% of the people, or 80% of the people, are doing the non-linear path. The linear path does exist, but I think they try to promote yes, this is possible for you. If you get the perfect well-rounded sound, if you cook just at the tail end of your degree, yes, they're gonna take you and they're gonna whisk you away. And so there's all this pressure to be the perfect musician by the time you graduate so that you are one of the the chosen few that get to escalate to the to the top of the cream. And it just isn't guaranteed. And I do wish there were more there was more education for like university students to know what all the paths look like and that it's okay that you have another job. Yeah. And it's okay to explore the other parts of yourself, like that your skills have given you. Like, oh great, now you're great with people, you're perfectly set up to go do management. Like, say you worked at a restaurant for your time during grad school or even an undergrad, you were a server. Like, say you learn more about the business and you get into restaurant management, like whatever that is, and not even, there's like other skills you can do. Nine to fives, like whatever it is, it's possible to still be an artist and still sing, and doing those things don't detract from the work you've done as a singer, a musician.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Yeah, and that's part of that's part of that too, the like trade school versus art school. Because if it's like if it's art school, then that's what you do. If it's trade school, it's like let's get you ready to do that sequential thing.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

You know, and and I think it's more valuable. I'm sort of coming around to the other side. It's like, you know, I'm I'm almost like I would not be I would really hear a person out that was like, I don't think that we should do operas for vocal performance degrees. Like it should be totally on making yourself the most well-rounded and thoughtful artist as possible. And then if you want to do operas and and try to go down that path, then that's like that's like another thing. But I think art school I I would really hear personnel that was like, I think art school should protect this time where being an artist isn't infected with the pursuit of career.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Yes. I understand that entirely. Um, granted they had cuts, or like like when we did Sonreal, we did it in English, but when we did um Così Fantute in Italian, it was like we did it with some a fair amount of cuts to it. Um I'm actually I'm actually glad you brought this up because I'm down to talk shop about this. Like, oh, should we be offering this in degree programs? Even with the fact that we did operas and like you could like get roles and stuff, it didn't feel like it was for anything.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

It w because I think it was just the culture of the school I was at to not really talk about career or like what's you. I think they were actually very good about like you guys are so young that none of this matters. Which is true when you're 18 through 22. That is the T I know there's like 21 year olds out there like progressing in the MetCom. I know that's a thing, but that is not something we were even talking about at my institution. And so when it came time to which by the way, I look back and I'm like, thank God we did operas, because um there are some people I know that like go and get their grad degree. in opera and they never had to learn a full role. Yeah. And it's impossibly hard for them to learn how to do that when sometimes when you get to grad school, the expectation is you know how to learn a role. Like here's the process. Why haven't you come prepared for it?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Yeah, and I didn't say learning roles was I valuable.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Oh, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Doing operas versus learning roles. I understand your point.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Okay, that makes sense too.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

So it's like like I'm not saying that that's what all universities should do, but I think there is a philosophy there of of protecting the artist in art school for the time that they're there. Rather than let's get you ready for this next thing.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Because that did benefit me a lot. What you're describing is something I think I really did feel in my time at IWU. And I look back and I'm grateful for it and like you're here talking about it and you're like what if we treated this like art school where it's not about the career and the blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah. Because I mean you go to you go to school for painting.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

You just paint.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

You just paint.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

And you get the technique and then if you want to enter competitions you do or if you want to submit to galleries you do but it's all about the art there. So true. Yeah so but I mean that's kind of a different thing because painting like you do the painting and you've done the full thing. It's like as a classical singer you have to like do the thing. So like you have to like put it on stage.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

I guess I can do a certain you know there's a lot of pretty clearly then it's like e so sure maybe you're they're putting on operas at the undergrad institution. Oh I should also say my undergrad was only undergrads. There were no grad students. Yeah. So I think that also did affect the culture at the school. Definitely highly recommend going to an all- undergrad institution if there's someone listening. I really recommend it.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

I that's a big reason I picked my school actually or at least mostly you know I think going to going to Indiana University as a as a freshman is like God and then the grad students don't even get roles because the PhD students are getting them. But you know well and the diplomas and the faculty. But like but maybe there is something to be said about that. Maybe that is the protecting them. Like they get to watch the operas but like in their undergrad they're maybe not doing roles.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Yeah that's true.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Maybe not maybe not as involved with that. Maybe that's good. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

That would be helpful if they still encouraged role study. Yeah. Something that kind of became a talking point when I was at DePaul was ever like culturally everyone I saw Quayne doing that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

I saw Quayne studying a role he wasn't he wasn't singing it. I'm like for you it was something everyone talked about.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

They were like oh role study. Like everyone's kind of starting to do role studies like should I do like a like a Fiordigi role study? Like that's like something people were talking about. Yeah. I was like oh that's a good idea whatever. So that would be something that might be good for like the you know the Ayubadis that are still in their undergrad a way for them to feel involved but still watch. That's a great point.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

I I also think if this is also like connected to the industry as a whole I think if universities didn't do operas there'd be a lot more people making opera on their own and I think that would be really really great for the whole thing. The whole the whole like the industry sure but like people's understanding of opera like accessibility like you can like you know you can get through your undergrad and be like oh yeah I've done these I've done these operas. It's fun this is this is good enough for me. And then like before they get in too deep and have to like make a whole career out of it they're like well did you ever see that article it was like fli floating around on Facebook.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

It was like um like student opera production like wow's audiences or something I don't know I was like that's not the title. I don't remember but it was like a journalist following like the process of students putting on their own opera production and I was like this is the kind of shit I like to see because like but it captured public attention enough for them to write an article and be like look at this crazy shit they're doing. Isn't that cool?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Yeah um so it's I kind of like what you're saying there it's like it might inspire more people to get their heads dirty younger the ones that the ones that want to be like I just want to I just want to study my art and become a more well-rounded person do that. And the ones that are really ambitious that are like I want opportunities find those opportunities or make them rather than I need to get the lead in the school production.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

You know it's and I also understand when you're young there like when I think about my time I I was not interested in becoming well rounded if I'm being honest. All I knew all I knew was I like singing I want to spend a lot of time doing it. I want other people to see in me that I'm good and then give me more time to sing because they're like well she's good at singing let's let's give her more opportunities.

SPEAKER_05 26:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

All I wanted was to be chosen to be given that time. I didn't think to myself oh a career I didn't understand that it was valuable to be well rounded. And I think that's the one thing I wish I could have told myself because I remember ending high school and being like well I'm bad at math and all I'm good at is the arts so I'm gonna go do that. You know like I was deeply not belittling but misunderstanding of myself and like that I could have done anything.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Yeah I was I was like kind of crashing out the other day and having a conversation with Coley. It's like like I never but I never like went to school to do music because I wanted to be the next whatever I was like it was just all I was good at. You know I'm not like like I did okay and everything else but I I didn't or at least I didn't feel like I had the affinity for anything else. Even though maybe I did.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Like I was a writer you know like I was a journalist and and really took that seriously and loved doing that but like I didn't but that almost felt like because I had been doing it it's like okay well then I did it you know so we same I'm a little freaked out because same I used to write all the time I I wrote poetry like all the time like and then I was like cool that's done the pod no yeah like it but it's like oh well I did that I did that and so it's like oh well I like singing and I want to deep dive into that more so like let's get the degree in that um yeah certainly never thought like oh be the next Renee Fleming I just wanted to be one of the people on the track that would be given the time of like oh you making your art is valuable here is more time and uh financial resources to make your art.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Everybody's talking about Timothy Chalamet I think we've moved on from Renee Fleming too quick. Drew what did she say?

SPEAKER_02 28:44

She was like universities across the country are graduating that was the other hot button with vocal performance degrees who have no shot at a career in this or something have we thought about how that's not the point that's that's the thing like it that doesn't need to be the point. The career doesn't need to be the point. You can still pick that as the method of study because it's worthwhile but you just need to know that that's not the point. Yeah but that does make it harder for universities to sell those degrees to parents because that's what the product is they're selling to parents the concept of their child's future.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

I would have a hard time with that if I was at like like a univer like a state school where I had to like recruit pre people to be like come and do this thing. You know I teach at a community college so it's like it's like very different. Like all of my all of my students are like music ed majors you know so it's super different. But to be like come and do this thing you're such a good singer come and pay us tuition I'll be a star not that they're saying that but like almost like when they give you scholarship they're like we see this potential in but also scholarship scholarship just take the money. Right so I don't know when I say was I talking to you or it's like like somebody some people somebody needs to tell them to stop. It's like somebody needs to tell them but nobody should. Did I say that to you or was I talking to somebody else?

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Somebody I swear it might have been me but I do not remember I do not remember I don't think it was about anybody specifically but just like people that are just like obviously not I'm not talking about like oh well they have this like they're like well they have this so they're not um like people that are like you know you're having a really hard time matching pitch.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Uh-huh why are you in a master's program? Oh you know I understand I understand I understand it's like somebody it is tea that universities somebody should somebody should say it's a advantage. Somebody needs to say it but nobody should. No one should say that to anybody.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

But it would be helpful.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

I'm never gonna say that to anybody.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Yeah. You know that actually is a great question.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

I'll talk around it.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

It's it's something I don't know if I'll ever I don't know what I would do if I had a student that and I think it's one thing entirely for that student to not be able to match pitch but it's like they love it and they are not in this for like I have career goals.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

That is one thing let's never talk about it. In fact like let's just continue to work on it and have that be part of the journey for your enjoyment of it. But like if you have someone that's like I want a career and I want to do this and this and this by this time on this timeline then I guess it it it would be the teacher's job to be honest with like hey because of that teacher to say hey you shouldn't do this. But that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying hey you shouldn't do this. I'm saying if the student has goals of I want to do this at this and this time or like by the time I'm graduated I want to be singing at pee pity poo it I it might be the the teacher's honest thing to be able to say like that's an ex with where you're at currently I like who knows like you could progress extremely ambitious goal. You could progress suddenly if you put in a lot of work into this and this thing. However with the trajectory we're on right now I don't know if that goal that you have of singing this and this at this time is attainable because we are still working on this. Like we are still working on matching pitch. And like it's really exciting to have those goals but I don't think it's fair for you to be putting on yourself the timeline of when you get those things done. Like you deserve honesty with yourself about where you're currently at and it's okay that you're where you're at. It's important for the teacher to not shame or say maybe it is definitely not the teacher's job to say you shouldn't be doing this at all. I do think that maybe that isn't fair. But you can totally frame it as like a timeline thing of like you should be fair to yourself and like give yourself time to get where you want to go and nothing is too late to do at any age but be honest that you might be a certain age depending on how much work you put into the things we're talking about doing in lessons.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Yeah. It's like I would like I would want the I would want one of the people that I care about most to be honest with me. Yeah and to be like Caden you have no shot at this and I would appreciate that you know but I don't know my my my goals are also different because I'm not like trying to be not really trying to be like a full time singer and that'd be my whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

At this moment yeah yeah so I don't know that's always the thing well it's not even a question. What the question is is like the kids that are getting accepted into degree programs and I think it's also right hard to be like how dare universities like let these people in that like have no shot and it's like well where are you?

SPEAKER_00 34:13

And that was sort of the Renee Fonning argument.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

It's about learning.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

As I understood it.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

It's about learning. You're if they're gonna pay you to teach them like why wouldn't you teach them?

SPEAKER_00 34:23

All you c that's your only job is to teach them and try to get the she was kind of she was like that's like connected to the trade school thing. Like she was thinking of it as that it's like or she was saying like gr like call uh universities are graduating all these students who have no prospect of getting a job. And the counterargument to that that I understood a lot of people making was it's not about getting a job.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Um and I think that I think there both sides of those of that argument is really valid but only one side will fix that problem. You know like it is a problem it is a problem and I think Renee Fleming is kind of right but at the same time like what a jerk thing to do to say I don't think it's anyone not even to say but not not even like like part like kind of that but more of like like why does why does why does XYZ univ why does XYZ State University have a vocal performance degree whenever they've got four people that they're enrolling every year or so and it's not in a metropolitan area. And it's like like for one of those to exist in every state maybe but why is there eight in every state? And why are the and like obviously those those students are going to have a hard time going from that into anything serious.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Then here's the thesis I'm willing to stand on about it. It's that we almost need to treat it like a humanities degree like what we were talking about at the beginning of the I think about a massive cultural shift exactly a massive cultural shift that takes it as a degree program that you are simply dedicating four years to studying this thing. Yeah and maybe that's where that came through that came from it's not about yeah it's not a and I think that almost is like maybe what Renee meant almost or like more so agrees with but like happened to say in her own words well and she has an understanding of this she has an understanding of the trade way.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

And she has an understanding of this is how it worked out for me.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

So it worked out for me and not everybody's gonna have what I have so they shouldn't so so because not everybody's that that studies this is going to have what I have then it's not valuable. There it is. It's kind of where she is there it is.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

And actually funny enough when I read her memoir not her memoir it was like her the the book about her life that she wrote and sorry I thought the guy was doing something when she wrote her book she had like a slow kind of coming up right yeah but it was still like like it took her a while to like gain the skills and feel good in her technique she said but her book gave me a skewed view I think of what was possible and I was reading that book at 19 when I was at the very beginning of my like performance journey and so I was like oh like this is possible and it's I'm not saying Renee Fleming sold me the fake dream but or like whatever it was because her dream is not fake. Like some people really do have that path. I think I didn't even have any inkling of what the path looked like until I read her book. But at the end of the day I think what might be needed is a cultural shift of this degree is the opportunity to study something for four years in the same way that people might undervalue a humanities degree. Yeah. Because there's all these people like regular regular working people that are like why would you get a humanities degree? That's not going to get you a job in anything and that's not true. You are hirable because you studied something for four years and that is valuable and you gain skills.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

So the like we would just need a mass cultural reset to no longer view the degree track as something that guarantees you a job and trade. And half of that battle would be universities no longer selling that as what you get.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

And I think in turn a lot of universities would close their Hogul performance they would in the same way so many less students would would would want to do that. Yes you know because I think I think a good amount of students are saying I want to do this because I love this thing and another portion of students are saying I want to do this thing because this is a job I want to have as a society as the only reason to get a degree and I think if if universities were a little bit more honest about this isn't a trade school then we'd have I think I think it would I think it would chill the equilibrium of of jobs versus people looking for the jobs is would even out a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

Yeah it could yeah because a lot of people get degrees solely for the money and that's more of a cultural like how are we thinking about the value of a degree in the United States that would butt up against it which is all the more reason universities aren't framing it or selling it or marketing it that way.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

It's not they think it is not marketable.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

I also think classical music is appealing this is like almost a whole other thing is appealing to people and it definitely like it's I think it's appealing to people because there is a clear sequence that you can be you could have you can be a part of that seems reasonable. Like it seems like oh yeah it's reasonable that you know if you're the if you're the best person in your high school then then you the you're the best person in your college and then you're the best person in your masters then you maybe I'll have this then oh yeah then I can get in one of the small yaps and then I can get into one of the medium size and then I can get into one of the one of the bigger size you know so I think that's really appealing that it seems more secure than like than if you're like I want to be musical theater and then I'm gonna go try to move to New York. Even even beyond that but yeah musical theater but like I want to be the next I want to be the next um actor like Jacob Lordy like no I'm gonna like like I want to be the next big singer songwriter like Taylor Swift or I want to be the next I want to be the next lead leading lead singer of a rock band track. Yeah but even but even that like I've met more people that make full-time incomes as just like singer songwriters in bars than I have as opera singers. There it is and well that that's not true. I I I definitely know more opera singers but it's like when I go into the circles of like singer songwriters it's like it's not uncommon for them to be like yeah this is what I do. I sing in bars and this is that's my full time thing. Yeah you know and they're that's like they do good it's like really genuine about it and it's like whereas like the people that that I know are opera singers that are like that are full time our age that are like you know or around that are like this is my full time thing. It's like what it's like wow like how are you making that work like or yeah or or there's the people that are yeah and like or there's the people that are obvious that like get shot all the way up and it's like okay yeah you won this competition and that's your salary for the year. Yes. You made thirty thousand dollars as from this one competition. Yeah like have fun and then you get you know like all that like that but the ones that are like in the in the young artist programs doing enough gigs where they're like this is where I make all my money it's like wow yeah you know versus like I go to the like the I don't know open mic and there's these two guys that are like yeah I make a full time income at this I'm like that's so beautiful. Yeah but that to us it's like oh one in a million that you'll be able to take your guitar and pay your bills with that you know but it's I mean it's a thing. I guess it I guess it I mean it it all to university it all depends but it's it all depends but I think it's the same. It's just there's not a visual sequence that you can explain to your parents that the professors can explain to you I think it's the same you know like you you like I'm not discounting those people that take their guitars and play open mics and and then that becomes their full time income. Like I think that's awesome. It's just so different. And it's and it's and I and I and I'm not like it's hard work. Both are hard work.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Yes but that's a whole other pin of worms.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Yeah but they're taking they're taking the the bet that society says that's that's a bad bet whereas opera singers are taking oh this looks like a more secure bet. This looks like something that I can put money into and it'll grow over time. You're thinking like if you're a singer songwriter. You are so right that that's a huge part of it I think that's why people I mean that was one of the that was one of the reasons that opera was appealing to me. Yeah it was also just it was also just because that was sort of like where traction came for me.

SPEAKER_05 43:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

But that was through the system. It was through at traction through the system the the university that I went to to the master's program or to the young artist programs that I've done to the master's program to community you know and whatever.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

I think part of it smaller things too is like like oh yes there's something you can explain to your parents about like oh like this is the track that can occur. I think it's also a difference in opera it's framed like oh there are these institutions that are set up to take care of you and there's these several There's these several wells of institutions that you can for at least a time period where you're still. But and I I guess it is a gamble on like, oh, will my kid have the chutzpah to like like truly learn how to pay their bills with their guitar? You know what I mean? Whereas if there's these external institutions that they know their kid can one day when they're old enough tap into and apply for on audition for, it's like, oh, there's higher powers at B that will.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

And that's part of that thing we talked about earlier. You kind of can walk in and say, Here's my resume. You kind of can.

SPEAKER_04 44:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Like you have to sing for, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_04 44:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

But you can't you can't do that as a as a singer-songwriter or as a lead singer of a rock band or rapper or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Yeah, you just pull up and do the thing. It's crazy out there. But you make it happen, and I think there's a way to find happiness in whichever route you fall in. It's either you are on that track or you are somewhere in between where you live in a metropolitan area and you take the gigs that make sense to you at the time, and some try to do it full-time based on what's around. Like maybe you have a Chicago Symphony Orchestra around you, maybe you have a like a Chicago lyric chorus around you, and you m magically get one of those wonderful gigs, and you make your full-time living that way. Or like there are one million.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

They're all realtors.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Yes. Well, not good for them. Yeah, that's what I think. That's awesome. That you live in the metropolitan area and you have another job and you do that thing. Um, or there's like, you know, maybe you live in a more rural area and you occasionally make it out to auditions once in a while, and like maybe every so often you try to breach into something more like what it is like to live in a metropolitan area and like do those things every now and again. Or you live in a rural area and you enjoy it as a hobby, or you teach, or yeah, like there is that whole other pipeline of like I went and got this degree and now I teach and teach it to others and and see who else is interested in enjoying it. And they're all valid. I think I just was not given every sample of what life could look like, or you kind of become in denial. Like for me, I never really thought teaching was something I would be interested in.

SPEAKER_05 46:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

I was always like, oh, well, I'm in this because I like performing and I like music, not necessarily imparting that onto others.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Like I could. That's a whole yeah, it's a whole thing. There's a whole other passion to that. Yeah. And some people have it, some people don't.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

But I think it's also really sold as like, oh, and this is the backup, like for the parent selling of it too. It's like, oh, and they can make so much money doing this.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

Like as as somebody that does love teaching, it's like if you are a great singer and you don't like teaching, you're gonna be a bad teacher. Yes. If you love teaching and you're a bad singer, you're gonna be a bad teacher.

SPEAKER_04 47:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

I think you have to be both. I think I think you have to have both. To to do it for a long term. To do it in in the short term, like but to but to like say, I'm gonna go in every day or I'm gonna make a sizable chunk of my living teaching. You know, you have to you have to have both. You have to have the experience, the and the passion for both things. Yeah for the art itself and for teaching the art.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

Yeah. What a crazy world we live in.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Maybe one day artists will be valued. Maybe maybe it's a whole can of worms.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Yeah. Well, uh well, like this podcast is not my manifesto. It's not your manifesto.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

Like we're just here to pick at the issues.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Yeah, I just wonder. I just think there's there's conversations that can be had that are difficult and different from what other people are saying.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

And not black and white.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Yeah, and like like I Which are hard for people to talk about. Like I was like saying earlier about like I could I could have a real conversation with somebody who did believe in this. Like, like that's not that's not me saying I believe in this a hundred percent. It's just like nobody's really talking about that, and I wish somebody would. And I and and I but and I think that there's things out there, mindsets out there, and conversations out there that really could change things and make a difference and make it better.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

At the bass level.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

I guess culturally, like in the operatic culture and the classical music culture, it does start at university.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

Yep. Oh, 100%. I don't know any opera singers that maybe one or two that were like, yeah, I just like really liked opera whenever I was twelve and listened to it a lot, and then I was like, I want to be an opera singer. It's like most of the time it's like, oh, I really liked choir, so I I went to went to college for choir.

SPEAKER_04 49:00

Half of why I picked my school was that I love the choir.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

I think that's true for a lot of people. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with it. And then they get sucked into opera, you know. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

And that's how that goes. Guys, thanks for opening this can of worms with us.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

Freaking fun. Freaking fun.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Do we need to talk about Timothy Chalamet?

SPEAKER_02 49:18

No.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Okay, good. No, we do not. People have heard enough. I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna, you already gave your opinion on Timothy Chalamet on your TikTok.

SPEAKER_05 49:28

Yeah, go ahead. I'm gonna do mine.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

I'm gonna do mine. Bones and All was a great movie. I really, really liked it. It was my movie of the year. I know it came out like years ago, but I really liked it. I haven't seen uh Marty Supreme. I've heard that it's great. I really liked uh Call Me by Your Name was okay. What else have I seen him in? I thought it was fine.

SPEAKER_05 49:55

I saw him in Matthew.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

But you know who I really I love Matthew McConaughey. Yeah. Yeah, if you haven't listened to his memoir, listen to his memoir. Listen to him narrate his own memoir. It's the best.

SPEAKER_03 50:06

Okay. We'll be investigating this.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

I don't know. I don't know there. I don't know there, Timothy. You might not want to piss off the opera people.

SPEAKER_03 50:14

Just imagine. Now you got a lot of haters. You lost more than just 14 cents of viewership. You lost a lot more than that.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Well, we just lost 14 cents of viewership, me saying I like him in the show. We had to make 14 cents to it.

SPEAKER_04 50:34

See you later.