MOMS AFTER DARK: The Chris Watts Case… When the Perfect Life Wasn’t

In our very first MOMS AFTER DARK deep dive, we’re unpacking one of the true crime cases that still keeps so many of us up at night—the Chris Watts case.

We walk through a clear, thoughtful overview of the case, why it completely consumed the media, and why it felt so disturbingly relatable to moms everywhere. Shanann Watts wasn’t a stranger on a screen she was a mother sharing her life online, her kids, her marriage, her day-to-day struggles and wins… just like so many of us.

We talk about the dangers of romanticizing what we see on social media, how curated “perfect” lives can hide very real pain, and why this case hit differently for mothers. Most importantly, we highlight Shanann as a mom, a woman, and a human being, not just a headline.

This episode opens the door to deeper conversations about intuition, isolation, communication, and the importance of checking in on your friends—because you never truly know what’s happening behind closed doors.

Dark topics, honest conversation, and real mom perspective welcome to MOMS AFTER DARK.

Transcript

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I'm court and I'm Jess, and this is mom's after mom's after dark, dun dun, dun. Once a month. We thought it would be fun or spooky to have a segment where we talk about the true crime cases that kind of keep us up at night. Mm-hmm. Or the conspiracy theories that like we actually do kind of believe we're just, you know, the things that we deep dive on. Yeah. After some drinks with our girls. I'm just gonna go a little south and we're gonna just once a month take it to a different place, get a little dark and put it all out there. Because I feel like there is, why do us moms, we, we love a True Crime podcast. Yeah. We like, we do. We like that twisted side of things, you know? Yeah. Like, 'cause we're secret investigators, you know? Like if you tell us a name, we're going to figure it out. So in our past life, we were investigators, so we do, we like a true crime conspiracy type of thing. Now we feel like we can solve any case like that comes about. Yeah. Like we get really invested. We wanna deep dive and I think that's why we chose this first case that we are gonna be covering because it Everyone knows about it. Yeah. Worldwide. Worldwide. Everyone knows about it. Everyone watched it unfold minute by minute, hour by hour. Yeah. We all became true crime investigators with this case. And it is the. Chris Watts case. Chris Watts. It's dark. We do wanna put out, um, a warning if you are not a true crime person, um, or are uncomfortable talking about some of the topics in this case, uh, which is, you know, family annihilation, I know that's aggressive child harm any of that. This might not be the episode for you. Uh, we will not be going crazy into the details of the case. Uh, we do want to talk also about Hannan and who she was as a mom. Yeah. And, uh, just so woman. Yeah. As well too. But yeah. We are gonna deep dive on the Chris Watts case. We are, we are. But first, what are we drinking? It's gonna be a total, total shocker to you guys. You will have no clue what we're drinking. Are you surprised? It's, uh, daiquiri. Just kidding. Just kidding. Espresso martinis, duh. Cheers. Espresso martinis. Moms and martinis. One, one day we will change the name. Yeah. We're gonna have to like rename our whole identity. Here we are because we feel like frauds. I know Haven't had a single margarita here. And I think this is what, episode seven? Is it episode six or seven? Yeah. One of those. I don't know. That's but no margaritas in sight. No. I would love, I didn't even ask her what we were making today. I just brewed the espresso and I was like, so, so, so, so, so, but yeah, let's hear, uh, your high and low from the week. So high and low from the week. Um, okay. I have a funny one. And she actually said, you should talk about this on the podcast. Oh. So it goes a little into where our brains go, you know, when we, when something happens, how our brains spiral, how we wanna investigate. Mm-hmm. This was totally innocent. So I'm laying in bed the other night. If you know me on a personal level, you know that my phone goes into sleep mode at 7 45 at night. I like to be in bed. I like to sleep early, I like to wake up early. Mm-hmm. And I have a phone call come through my do not disturb, which means that someone called you two times back to back, oh shit. And in, in the matter of like a minute or something. And it is Hailey Ebr. And uh, it's 8 45 at night. So it buzzes through and I'm half asleep. I have no idea what's going on. I catch the very end of the vibration. And so I text her and I go, Hey, is everything okay? And I get no response. Oh shit, nothing spooky. Try to call her. Nothing, nothing. Didn't hear anything back. So full panic. Uh, well full panic, but I still go back to sleep anyways because I just, I just too concerned, but a little concerned. I did get a little concerned and that I, what am I gonna do? Yeah, drag out, find her. I have no idea what's going on. So the next morning I wake up at the Ask Crack of Dawn and I send her another message like, Hey, didn't hear back from you. Is everything okay? And then at a reasonable hour, I call her seven 30. 'cause I'm like every, she has young kids. Yeah, everybody should be up. Everyone's probably awake at this point. So I call her and I get no answer. What the hell? So my mind is going haywire. Yeah. Dark, absolute haywire. So I call true crime. True crime. So I call her best friend Michaela. I get no answer. Oh my God. And my heart is beating out of its chest. Yeah. And I'm just like, what is going on? Well, not even two minutes later, Hailey calls me back laughing. She goes, oh, we were doing the TikTok prank last night where uh, we had to call someone while I was wearing headphones and I couldn't hear anything, but McKayla was trying to tell me what to say on the phone. Oh my God. And we thought you would be a funny one to get a response out of. And I was like, you couldn't text a girl back. Yeah. Let me know that you weren't dead somewhere. Like so. So that was a Hi. That was like a fun little fun little, you knows not the heart rate going high, low, whatever. She's a teacher by the way. She is. She teaches your kids guys. Um, always keeps you on your toes. No, that was, that was fun. And alright. Actually, I'll say. I know that's a low, but my daughter came home from her trip. Oh yeah. And we've just been hanging out. We actually woke up at, she asked me to wake her up at four o'clock this morning when I woke up. Oh. And we did face masks and we watched Cute, uh, tiktoks. And then she goes, I need to take a nap. And then she napped for an hour and then I got her ready for school. But I'm happy she's girl. Oh, it's so funny. Well, and funny little tidbit, your daughter and man were in Lake Havasu and my sister and her husband went to Lake Hava. They live in Blythe. So they went to Lake Havasu for the race. I don't know what it was, the Parker 400, and it was like a bunch of vendors and stuff. Um, it was his birthday and they went and she texted me and she's like, Hey, is Jessica her family? Like in like Havasu random, but like, I think I saw her man and daughter, but I didn't see her. And I'm like, what are the freaking odds? Like, I was like, yes, they a hundred percent are, but I'm like, she's like, yeah, they were walking right in front of us and there was thousands of people. But I'm like, what are the odds that. She sees them like walking right in front of her in thousands of people. Taylor said the same thing. He was like, he's like, and you're sure it was us? And I was like, well, bright curly, blonde hair and a bald head. So, and gages. She was like, he had big gauges. Yeah. I'm like, yeah. And she's like, and I, I recognized her daughter because she was like, when we started the podcast, she started following you. Yeah. So she's like, I follow her. I see all her stuff. Yeah. So I know, I know her whole life. Yeah. So yeah, it was, it was her. Yeah. Yeah. That's, so what are the odds? Mm-hmm. That's so funny. That's crazy. But what's your, what's your low? My low. I didn't think about that. this, it's gonna be the fact that it's been warming up in the afternoon and I'm not prepared for that. Mm-hmm. I really enjoy like our little cold season. Me too. So I would like to wear sweaters and sweatshirts for a couple more weeks. Mm-hmm. So that's my love. Yeah. It sucks when you're like, layered up in the morning and then it's like gets hot and you're sweating and I'm not ready because I'm not tan and like, you know, you always wanna be more fit and this and that, and it's like, it's just sneaking up and it's like, shit. Well we better kick it into gear here. We need to switch out these espresso martinis for, so something skinnier, some skinny shit and we need a workout after. Yeah. Literally. Oh my God. That's crazy. What about you? Um, my high would be, what was my high. Um, I'm planning like a bunch of different trips and things because I said that, um, like last year, at the end of the year, not New Year's resolution 'cause I don't like those, but I just said like, Hey, next year I wanna like take more trips, do more things, visit more people, make more memories. Like, not like spend so much money on like materialistic things, but like create different stuff. So like, river Tyler and I have never gone camping. The three of us, like, so my parents brought their canan home and we're like, let's just rent one of those campers that drops it off where you're at and like go like pleasant, whatever. So we're planning something like that. My nephew's 21st birthday in May. We're all going to Vegas. Tyler and I are going to Cabo 'cause we never took a honeymoon trip and my parents have like a timeshare and said that they would like let us use some of their days because we never really took a honeymoon. So just lots of different things. It gets me excited. I, I like to plan different things, so I'm excited about that. But my low Hmm, hmm, hmm. I've been having a hard, like, past week with river, just Yeah. Navigating new routines and stuff, trying to juggle everything. Don't have as much help. You know, my mother-in-law actually like as we speak, is getting a hip replacement. So praying that goes smooth, but so like, I don't really have her for childcare anymore. My mom's busy, um, haven't had my nanny, she got like a new salon suite, so she's been busy. So river and I have been together nonstop and all these preschools have wait lists like it's fucking Harvard or something. Like, what the hell are you gonna teach my kid? First of all, preschool is expensive. My God. And then wait lists everywhere. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, okay, well realistically, I probably can't get him in anywhere until August or maybe later. And we're together 24 7. And I just feel like he fights me on everything lately. I mean, I could say like, oh, the sky is blue. And he'll be like, no, it's not. It's pink. I want it to be pink. It has to. And I'm just like, oh my gosh. You know? And then I'm battling like, I don't respond well sometimes. Or I'm like short fused. And then the end of the night I'm like, God damnit, like, I wanna be better than that. I don't wanna, I don't wanna do that. So yeah, it's been the juggling of that and trying to figure it all out and just toddlers man. Like take him to some of these like jungle gym play places. I know. Like Kids Empire. Well that's over by me. Yeah. Um, but like urban jungle, I know. Let him just be, I'm think of like, he needs to be around more kids too. Yeah. Because he is an only child and he's home with me. But I have a hard time with daycares. It creeps me out. Like, I don't know who you are and how qualified you are, what you're doing, and start with the gym. Yeah. And he needs to get in sports. And so I left and they're like, oh, he has to be four. And I'm like, I'm just gonna lie on his birth certificate. Everyone thinks he's four. He's big. But I'm like, he loves physical activity. He is like higher energy, kind of a DHD type of behavior. So I'm like, he thrives on being physical. So I know that in sports, like, and he's athletic, I'm like, he would just, that would be a great outlet for him. But again, have to wait until four. So it's just all the things that you try and figure out as a mom and then you're like, you know. God, we're butting heads on top of it. So that would be my low feel. Yeah, those weeks are tough. Yeah, they're really tough because you're like, what am I doing wrong? Like also, is it me? Is it him? Like what? You know, what's going on? Yeah. And why and why? Why us? Why us? Why us? I'm sure everyone can relate. Yes. We've all hobbies. Yes. But sometimes going with the why us. We wanna jump into the case because I think that we wanna relate a lot of this case. To like real life stuff that we have going on in our lives and just how images can be totally like construed to mm-hmm. Seem one way on social media or like, oh, I would've never guessed, or, oh, things seem so perfect or this is, you know. Mm-hmm. Just things like that. And with this case particularly, I think a lot of people probably would've had that to say that knew them personally that like, you know, the social media presence and all that. Like, they wouldn't have guessed, you know, I wouldn't have guessed him. Well, that part, and I think a lot of us just saw ourselves in Hannan, uh, as well too. Yeah. I mean, especially and I know not everyone is like this, but she put her life out there on social media, so we all built this parasocial relationship, you know, with her and her energy. I obviously, I, I didn't follow her before the case, but No. You know, as soon as you hear the first thing that we do, or most of us, we go and we, we yeah. Search the name and we check the Facebook and we wanna Yeah. We, you know, we, and I was just immediately pulled in with her videos of mm-hmm. Of her and her family and the smiles and the laughing and her and her daughters just, you know, giggling and I mean, heartbreaking and haunting at the same time to Yeah. Like watch the videos of her daughter sing a song to Chris and you know, it's this image of this happy, healthy, perfect little family. Yeah. And, and. It wasn't reality. No. Uh, it, it wasn't reality and, you know, as, and we'll dive into that, but as text messages come out, she was just like, all of us, like when something is going on, you text your friend of, you know, this is happening or, you know, he, she was confiding in her friends about a potential divorce Yeah. About you know, him not wanting her physically or, you know, whatever it was. Yeah. And so her friends, you know, did know. But she also, she was, you know, a bubbly, happy Yeah. Woman who just wanted love and well, and just that vulnerable side of her, you know, that we've all experienced as far as like reaching out to our friends when we have, um, hard days with our kids, or we have hard days with our spouses, or like, what do you think this means? He's been acting like this or that, you know, like the most vulnerable side of us is shown to the people closest to us and. Now those text messages and all that have come out, like you've seen like she was completely vulnerable with them and like, Hey, you know, like he doesn't, you know, want this sexually with me or this or that. And it just like, it's just a mirror of like different things that we have shared with the people closest to us, you know, and how haunting for them, you know, I can only imagine them thinking like, you know, all these things that she was saying and stuff would've never led them to believe that that would happen. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because seeing her social media and stuff, like, the first thing that came to mind for me was like, first things first, she's a mom. And I could see it through like, I don't know her, but you know, when you see certain people and you just know, like you just can feel like she's a frigging good mom. Like, and we don't know everything, but she, I could just like, her kids were radiating just pure, like happiness and joy when they were around her in those videos. And I don't think you can fabricate that. Mm-hmm. Um, and she was a mom. Mm-hmm. That like, you know, like a lot of us, like, and, and that seemed to be her top priority. Yeah. And for that all to just be ripped away, um, by this illusion that I also had while watching, you know, the sky, I mean, to me, who looked, yeah. I mean, like we were talking about, you know, like we expect a scary, you know, a murderer or someone toxic or someone bad to have this image. Right. Like, you know, they, they look a certain way. They have to look a little creepy. They have to look a little that, like, it's not you, you don't see a guy that looks handsome or looks this way and think like, oh, he's probably got some sick thoughts. Yeah. He might do something crazy. Like, you don't think that, like our image is, you know, avoid scary fricking dark alleyways. Who you're sitting with at your kitchen table. So I think that's the part that like really gets me creeped out the most is just like, you don't know people the way you think you do. No one, you don't know anyone ever. No. You don't know anyone ever. And I think because you should never also have to fear that, oh, we're be, you know, me and my spouse are not clicking anymore. We're, we're gonna get a divorce, we're gonna separate. Yeah. We're, we're gonna, you know, like, we're, we're not intimate. You shouldn't also think that that means that murder's on the horizon. Yeah. You know, like, that's, that's, that's some sick, just twisted thing is gonna happen to you because of it. That's what, that's what truly gutted me. But yeah, we just wanted to start, at least with this, um, and just like highlight that Anne was, she was a mom, like a lot of us. Yep. Um, and she was, they were in their. Um, early, mid thirties, and I think that's why looking back on this is I'm like, it's so haunting. Yeah. Um, just to see. And, you know, we live in a day and age where we, we watched this all play out, but if you guys are not familiar with this case, we are gonna go through an overview and tell you guys a little bit about it and what made it so haunting. So, uh, before Shanan and Chris met on Facebook, Shanan was actually married. And she hannan unfortunately, it just, it didn't work out. Um, it, it did not end well. And she was kind of left on her own to start completely over, yeah. From scratch. And during this time she did get a friend request from Chris Watts on Facebook that she actually declined. And, and then, so some time went on, friend request comes back in. So he was persistent. Yeah. And then she, she accepted it. They exchanged the messages and according to sources, they hit it off right away. And at this time she did, she actually got her, she wasn't just a dams in distress and, you know, going for the first thing. She actually was building a life for herself at this time. And they met, they moved to Colorado and everything was seemingly perfect. Me just say, the first decline was God. It was God telling her, decline, decline, decline. Don't do it. Don't at all costs. Yes. Don't look at his profile picture. Don't do It just is a monster. It's a monster. Absolutely. And yeah, unfortunately. Yep. She accepted, she accepted the next one as all of us do. Yep. We ignored God's signs because we have a better plan. Yep. And uh, so they eventually, they got married in 2012. They had two daughters. So they had Bella who was born in December of 2013. And then they had CE or Celeste, uh, who was born in July of 2015. And then that alone is just, ugh. I just think of this, this mom that gets out of this, you know, relationship and now she's making a life for herself and she gets to dm. 'cause there's a lot of you out there that are divorced and young, and now there's this man reaching out and everything seems perfect. And he seems like he's going to add value to your life and he's going to add happiness to your life. And, um, you start a life with him and you have kids with him, and you think like, I mean, I'm reaching peaks and valleys here. Mm-hmm. Like, I, I have the family that I want, I have all the things that anybody could want, right? Mm-hmm. And then for things to just totally, you know, turn that way, it's just crazy. So in June, 2018, Shanan announced she was pregnant with their third child, a son. They planned to name Nico. And I think this whew. Uh, after reading the text messages, this, this breaks my heart. This, this third announcement absolutely breaks my heart, so. They obviously, I, I don't know if it was planned, unplanned or whatever it was, or if, if, if she thought that it was gonna save the relationship. And it has been alluded in some things Yeah. That like she thought that this would be it to kind of save that relationship. Yeah. And she probably just felt, I mean, we've all been there after a long-term relationship after you get outta the honeymoon phase into the day-to-day mundane Yeah. Things could feel a little roomy. Mm-hmm. You know, a hundred percent. Everyone hits those stages. So maybe she thought, okay, you know, like we've been, you know, this'll, this will bring that baby bliss back. Yeah. This will bring that back. So she announced that she was pregnant and she actually did this, uh, on video. She did it and it was posted on Facebook a little bit later and he looked absolutely shocked. Yeah. And he, later she has text messages with her friends where she said he's not excited and he doesn't want this baby. He said he only wants our other two. And she said that she canceled the gender reveal. And in, you know, messages with it, everything started to fall apart. Yeah. Like, it was almost like, well, and how terrifying. Yeah. Right? Like, you go to your spouse and you're so excited. Mm-hmm. Like, hey, and like all of us, when when things get rocky in your marriage, your mind goes to like, you're seeking things that might bring excitement or bring joy or like, bring that spark back. Right. And now she's pregnant and that's exciting and that's a miracle. And now this man is saying like, no, I don't want that child. I only want the two that we have. And it's like, whoa. Like how do you take that as a mother? Like, okay, he doesn't want this, but like, as a mom and as a like, as a wife, like, this is everything that I do want. Yeah. So how do you, like, how are you so at odds with that and, and how do you even turn a corner from that to begin with, you know? Oh. And I think that's, that's a pinnacle point for like, for meeting, yeah. For their marital issues to come and play. Mm-hmm. I don't know. You know, none of us can speak on the fact of if they experienced like things prior to that that were like super major. Mm-hmm. Um, it might have just been regular rocky waters. And that was like the peak. They were actually in major financial debt. Oh, okay. Major financial debt. So she was a part of an MLM called Thrive. Yeah. Yeah. And ML. Sorry. If you're in one, they can be a trap, they can be a money trap money. You, you could invest a lot of money into them with little in return and they, you know, they kind of entice you with the whatever. And I, I, who's to say if that's what it was, but they did. Yeah. They did say in some sources that their mortgage was $3,000 a month and the car payment was $600 a month. And that was eating up a lot of their cash. Yeah. She was at home just working for an MLM, he was working for the oil fields and it, so there was the financial strain, which is a big strain for a lot of couples. Oh, yeah. And then, but on top of that, you know, as, as a woman, sometimes we get into a predicament, like with our partners, and you start grasping at straws of like, how can I make this person want me love me? Yeah. Whatever. Like, they're really stressed, I wanna do everything possible, you know, and, and obviously, you know, getting, getting pregnant, I'm not here to, to judge. Like I, no, I think that because there's, there's like, there's intimacy involved Yeah. With that like, but. Unfortunately when she got pregnant, she actually was experiencing crazy nausea and sickness. Yeah. So I think, and like, plus I don't know about her. I am psycho when I'm like, I, I was, yeah. I was nuts when I was pregnant. I loved being pregnant. I loved the feeling of being pregnant. But like, I cried when Taylor didn't wanna get a smoothie with me. Yeah. 'cause I wanted a smoothie, but I only wanted it if he wanted one at the same time as me. Well, those hormonal shifts are insane. They don't make sense. They don't add up. Mm-hmm. And they add a lot of stress, I can imagine, to a relationship. But, you know, with that like financial strain that they were experiencing, I, I think a lot of people can relate. And I think a lot of that is to hold up images, right? Mm-hmm. We might get a house that's too big, or we might get toys or this or that, or, or different things that maybe we know, like, okay, we can't afford it, but we'll figure it out. Yeah. And then, you know, you might spiral into debt because you wanted to like create this illusion, this picture mm-hmm. That like, everything is a certain way. We have all these nice things, we're great, we're this or that, you know, to compensate for, you know, the actual like, internal issues that your marriage is experiencing. And from there with those issues, um. He actually began an affair with a coworker in the summer of 2018. Mm-hmm. Um, so that alone, I mean, I'm just thinking as a wife and I'm just like, I'm personally like, enraged just thinking of that, you know, like I'm, I'm at a low point, you know, like, I'm nauseous, I'm sick. I'm carrying our third child. You're, you feel, so you don't even feel pregnant yet. No. You feel bloated. It's just like a big deal. Like I am carrying life and it's a life that you and I created, and you decide that that's the perfect time to step out and, you know, start this relationship with this coworker at work where it's like. What, like go to work and do your job and come home. That part, goddamn, when she found the receipt, she found the restaurant receipt and he obviously he was trying everything he could Yeah. To hide it. She found the receipt, the $60 receipt and and he was like, no, that was for my meal and a beer like that. And so she being the woman detective that we all are mm-hmm. Holds up the restaurant menu, finds what he ordered and the beer. And was like, that should only be $30. Yeah. You lying girl. Mask suck. Girl mask baby. Yes. So she, she was smart. She knew, but also too, what, like, she's probably like, what am I gonna do? Yeah. I have two kids. Yeah. How I don't, I, I work for an MLM. Yeah. What am I supposed to do? How, how am I gonna do this? Well, and we're in debt. I'm pregnant with another child. And also besides the financial and all of that, this idea of what she had in her head of what her life was gonna be like. I think we all grasp at that, right? Yeah. We're all like, we all try to cling to that. Like, ignore red flags. Ignore red flags, or like, take certain treatment that we know that we shouldn't and just take it. Because in the grand scheme of things, like it's for your family, it's for the kids, it's for that. But um, in this case, that wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't good. No, no, no. And it didn't turn out good. So obviously he's having this affair with Nicole and so shame on you, Nicole. Shame on you. I have my own thoughts and theories about you. Yeah. Uh, we won't go down. I know this is also a conspiracy podcast, but, oh, good God. Um, but I, that'll be another hour if you guys wanna dive into it. So. She decides, Hey, I think it would be best for us to take a little break. Mm-hmm. We're gonna take some time apart. It'll probably be best for, let's clear our heads. You know? Yeah. I'm being a little, she said, she said that she was being controlling. I think that's healthy. Yeah. And so she said she was being controlling. They were, they were just button heads. So she goes, Hey, I'm gonna take a couple weeks. I'm gonna go to North Carolina, stay with my family. But they, she noticed that their communication was strained. Yeah. He was being short. He wasn't being loving, you know, none of that. And I, I, maybe he was saying it from an angle of like, I'm giving her space. Who knows? But also too, your pregnant wife. Yeah. Needs a little love. So, and the kids, right? Yeah. Because I'm gonna talk on, I'm, I'm gonna speak on a standpoint of like Tyler and I, when we're in rifts and we're having issues. It does not stop him. Like he can't help himself. But from checking in on River and I mm-hmm. Our, our actual, like, Hey, did you guys make it safe? It doesn't matter how mad we are. Did you make it safe? How's river? Can you send me a video? Mm-hmm. Like, it doesn't matter. It, it doesn't matter. Yeah. As a parent, as a dad, and as a spouse, you still kind of are like checking in. You can't help it. Right. Yeah. And same with me. If I'm mad at him, I'm still like, did you guys make it? What's wrong? Her doing, send me a video. Mm-hmm. Like, so yeah. That became strained. Which, um, red flag, you know, to me. Yeah. I don't know that she, I'm if she already, if her senses were already heightened that something was going on. Yes. It's on a 10 now. Because she's also across the country. Yeah. From Colorado. And she was pregnant. Yeah. Let's not, let's not forget the hormones and pregnant like any of us. She confided in her friends and she was, you know, between text communications that came out. She was. Texting her friends and talking about, you know, like that she felt like the marriage was on the rocks and that it was strained. And like, there's, there's some issues here. And I think she even mentioned, you know, like that he hadn't been really reaching out while they were on that vacation. Yeah. You know, like, so he wasn't reaching out, but he did fly out for the last week a bit. Which, and so he flew out. Yeah. And she goes, oh, oh, he's a gaslight maybe. Well, and, and I'm sure during that time he, she was like, okay, you know, maybe, maybe this'll be good. Yeah. But then she expressed to her friends that this only worsened everything because he wasn't kissing her. Mm-hmm. He wasn't grabbing her butt, you know, he wasn't, he wasn't doing anything, so she, was like, it really must be on the rocks. Yeah. So after this trip, um, she had a. Trip planned out to Scottsdale, Arizona for Thrive or the, the company that she was working for and which that hits close to home. I know Scottsdale. Do you ever think about a side note? Do you ever think about like, these situations where these people are murdered or different things and you come to find later that they were like visiting a place that was very near to you and you're like, just how close paths like, you know, was I somewhere near that area at that time and past her, or who did she encounter that we may know? Like just how small worlds are and like how paths crossed. It's just, I think about that and I also, every time I drive past Perryville, I'm like, Jody Arias. Yeah. I, I feel her. I feel her like kind of creep on. Like it creeps you d with Jody. Leave me alone. I'm driving Jody. I'm literally just trying to drive. Can you? That's a whole other, she is terrifying to me. Um, no. Every time I drive past that prison, I'm like, and not that I'm actively driving past, no, I know Kristen, but like on the way what San Diego I think it is. Yeah. Which time I go to play. Yeah. And side note with that one, I have a friend that actually had like an exterminator company. Mm-hmm. And he would, um, he sprayed for bugs at Perryville and he said he was on the other side of the gate and that she always would come up and she always had her makeup all done. Like she made makeup in there and stuff. And he said nothing. Put fricking like his hair up on his arms, like her coming up. How you doing today? Like, she was just, so, he said it was one of those that you could look in her eyes and you were terrified. It was just darkness. Yeah. Oh, so creepy. But anyways, continue. She was on a work trip in Scottsdale. Sorry. Yeah. So she was on her work trip. She was, you know, obviously one thing that she did right? Was she, she kept her friends in the loop. And I think, I do wanna pause here for a minute because I think, you know, I, I what we won't dive into, but being in an abusive relationship mm-hmm. At one point in time. Yeah. One thing that I did not do is I really didn't tell the extent of what was happening within my four walls. No. To anyone else, because I never wanted, I protected that person. Yeah. And I never wanted anyone to, not look at them differently. Yeah. So I don't know why we're like that though. I know. Why, why do we do that? So I think if we can take anything away, and obviously we're not ending right here, but this is like just a good point of leading up to. What happened. Mm-hmm. She kept all of her friends locked in Yeah. Of exactly what was happening. Happening when her, or when his behavior changed. Yep. And how she was feeling, what she thought was going on. Because if her friends just saw social media, they never would've believed that it was Chris that did this. Yeah. So, did just wanna pause there. texted her friend. Yeah. And basically was like, he said, he is done like there, there's no reconciliation. He said he's done. Yeah. And it's one of the last text messages that she ever sent. Yeah. Crazy. Especially for that friend that received that text message thinking like, maybe she'd received that a few times before too. We don't know. Like, Hey, we're done. You know, like us friends do. Mm-hmm. Like things are rocky. Things are that, and you're thinking in your head like, I. Just let it cool down. Maybe tomorrow things will be different and this and that and, and the next day things, they were different, but not in that way. Right. Yeah. That's just haunting to think about for that friend. But yeah, so that next morning, um, she had a doctor's appointment and she didn't show up. I immediately go to the point of like, you know, as a doctor you're thinking like, oh, another canceled, no show. Yeah. Type of thing. But it's like, who would've ever guessed that she was no showing for the reason that she was no showing? Well, and this is where Chris messed up. Mm-hmm. So first of all, her friend, I think it's Cassie, sorry if I'm messing it. Cassie was a hero. She is the best friend that we all need because all of us, Cassie knew that Cassie knew that she missed the appointment. Yeah. And, and she said, no, no, no. She wouldn't have done that. Yeah. That's not like her. And Chris was like, oh. Actually, she told me so, so we, we got into a pretty heated fight last night. We talked about divorce and Anne said that she was gonna go spend time at her friends with the kids and like, you know, get a breather. Well, Cassie was like, Hey, listen buddy, I have already talked to all of her friends. Yeah. None of us know where she's at. So I'm at your house right now. Yeah. I, she's like, I know the code to your front door. Yeah, I just tried to open it and the latch is locked on the inside. So Buddy, you need to come home from work. And you need to let me in this house right now. Yeah. Because her flip flops are also inside the house and she wears those flip flops every I know my best friend. Yeah. Let's, she wears those flip flops everywhere. Well, let's be clear here. We know our friends. Mm-hmm. We know, um, their character and how they act and what they do. And just because we're moms too. Yeah. Right. So just because we get in a big fight the night before, it doesn't matter. We have those checklists in our head. We know we gotta go to a doctor's appointment. We know we still gotta show up because that's what we do. And in the meantime of all this, she also wasn't responding to any messages at all whatsoever. And they know, okay, wait a second. Because I mean, I guess if it was me, you guys would all think like, oh, that's normal for her. But for people that respond, there's avid responders, um, which she seemed to be, she was very like, communicative to her friends. They're like, wait a minute. She's not responding to messages. So, okay. One thing, she misses the appointment, her flip flops are still here. She's not at any friend's house. Her car is still here and is still there. And she's not responding to messages like, bro, you're not gonna convince us that this is not absurd for her. And totally out of character. So, nice try, but no. Yeah. So what a good friend, because she was like, she's like, I smell bullshit. Yeah. Uh, she's like, okay, great. Glad that you're coming home. But I also called the cops, so the cops are on their way and they're gonna come do a welfare check because I don't believe this story. Yeah. And so that was August 13th the welfare check and the initial investigation began and the police arrived to the Watts home and he, he was cooperative. Right. He presents to the, to the police, as you know. Kind of concerned. Mm-hmm. But in my opinion, not concerned enough. I guess I always found that alarming. He seemed panicky, but not under distress. No. Yeah. Like, not like a nervous husband. He seemed like a nervous Nelly that they were gonna find something. Yeah. But not like, oh, you know, like, oh, anything could be majorly wrong. Um, but when all the sheets are taken off your bed. Mm-hmm. Okay. What man does laundry, first of all, red flag, red flag, red flags, like total red flag. Um, but also, like, I don't know, to me if, if all these things are happening, and I know for Tyler personally, if my friend shows concern. Or like my sister, I'm closest to her. She knows everything about me. And he would know damn well if my sister came to him and was like, no, something's off. He would panic. Yeah. Like that would start the panic because he would know. Okay. She knows everything that's going on. They talk all the time. They text all the time. And if she's concerned, then I had a reason to be like, totally majorly. Yeah. Concerned. And I would be tell, he would be telling the police, what do we need to do? What are we doing? Let's go. Yeah. Let's, and he was just more so like this, like, I hope they come home. Yeah. I hope if you have them bring them home. Like, and it's like, wait a second. Like you don't even know, like, why are you even saying that? And I'm like, you're the, the latch on the door was closed. Yeah. So like you're telling me that someone came in, they kidnapped them, took them through the garage because what are they gonna do? Latch the inside? Yeah. Like you can't do that from anywhere else. So you're telling me that they left through the garage. They closed the garage for you. Like what a. Kidnapper. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Being respectful of my home, but not my wife and child. Like, let's just start there. And then they continued their investigation and they find her phone, her purse, and more importantly, as a pregnant woman, she was taking medication during that pregnancy and her medication was there. Do you think that if you were to leave and, and as a mom and you, you had this medication that was dire to like. It's the vitality of your pregnancy. Mm-hmm. And your health. Yeah. Like, come on, we're moms, we're women. We don't just forget that stuff. That's not, that's a man thing to do, not a woman thing to do. I will just never forget that the body cam of his interview on the porch Oh my God. Coming out. God, I, it's like etched in my brain. All of us were like, everyone like, yeah, something's off. Yeah. Like, we're like, it's creepy. And we're like, this is off. No, he did it. He smiled. I remember like when we like Yeah. Went back and kind of paused it. Mm-hmm. There was like a smile at the camera. Like he was kind of eating up the attention mm-hmm. In a creepy way. But again, he looks like the picture perfect husband. He wasn't. You know, like, creepy, didn't look like a druggie, didn't look like an alcoholic. Yeah. These things that we look for, right? Yeah. I, I know it's bad, but we're biased as far as like what we think danger looks like. And I think that's the biggest thing, um, to take away from this. Not, we're not ending on anything, but like, a good point to make is like, not every red fra flag looks like a red flag. Like sometimes it's the prettiest picture you might ever see, and you have to still be scared of it. You have to still be on edge. Yeah. And I don't wanna say scared, but you still have to, you just don't know anybody. Don't ignore red flags. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. They are like, they, they don't go away. No, they don't go away. And, you know, the, the next piece of damning footage that we got to see in this case. Was the, the ring camera footage or the whatever camera footage. Yeah. From the neighbor's house. Yeah. Uh, and it showed Chris backing up into his garage. Yeah. Which the neighbor said he never does that, he never backs in. So it shows him really early in the morning backing into the garage Yeah. And leaving the house. So seemingly by the fact that the front door was latched and we said that the kidnapper went through the garage. Yeah. Chris was the last one to go through that garage. Well, and at this point he's, he's trying to tell everyone like, Hey, we had a fight last night. I think she just took the kids and left. Okay. Well, as a dad, do you not find it alarming that you don't, you have no clue where your kids are, even if you guys were in a fight and you thought that your wife took your kids. I know. Freaking for a fact that Tyler would be blowing me up. Hey, where is, where's river? Like, oh, you, like, they're still going to check on their kid. That part. There would be no phone call. No, there would be no phone call of where, where is my kid? Like Taylor would be burning down cities. Yeah. Like, where is my child? Well, and Tyler and I use Life 360 and everyone thinks, oh, you don't trust each other. No, no, no, no, no. It's because there are certain situations where I'm in Uber by myself or something, or, um, there's been a time where it alerted me that Tyler had a blowout on the freeway on the way to work. Like there's different things that it's useful for. Right. So Tyler would be all over it. There's no way that he would just have no clue and just be like, oh, she probably just took the kids and left for a while. I, I haven't checked, but like, that could be what happened. And then seemingly on these interviews and stuff just act like. You know? No, I think maybe they just left or, or like, what? Well, and I will never forget too, so like the police have their body cam, uh, this body cam footage too. So Chris is in the neighbor's house, the one who has the camera face on the garage. Chris is in the neighbor's house, and the neighbor goes, oh, I have footage facing their house. We can, uh, you know, the neighbor's like, uh, I can show you guys. Yeah. Everything that's happened. And then Chris is sitting there rocking back and forth mm-hmm. Panicking as, as he's like, I don't know. Yeah. Like, I, and he's like, yep. I was like, load my tools. I was, uh, yeah. Now just circling back and trying to cover up his tracks. Why wouldn't you have gone to the neighbors in the first place if you thought like that they were missing? Like, I hope they come home, blah, blah, blah. Why wouldn't you have gone to your neighbors and been like, Hey, like can you show me some room? Like mm-hmm. I wanna see maybe where, what direction they went in. Like, yeah, this is your family here. Like, this isn't just anything. And during questioning throughout this whole entire thing he kept providing different versions of the stories. Everything kept conflicting what he said prior, you know, like, yeah. I think that's like a major point of it. And I think probably for police especially, like, okay, why well, is changing so much. Even into, so when Chris finally pleads guilty, he actually put all the blame on Hannan. Oh yeah. His dead wife. Yeah. Uh, which was probably the most sickening part. He said that Hannan. That loving, beautiful, bright mother Yeah. Was actually the one killing her own kids. Yeah. And then so he saw that So he, he took matter. He was, he was defending the kids and Yeah. And that's what and then he killed Anne. Yeah. And, and I think he ended her life because she was threatening the kids and trying to end their lives. And it's like even after she's gone, you are totally shitting. On her name. Yeah. You know what you did deep down and you still, and I think that just goes to show the narcissistic sickening behavior that he had. Mm-hmm. Because it, it's not like he came out and was like, I'm sorry I did it. I don't, I snapped. You know, like I, I. No, it wasn't that. It was still, he was trying to, to make right of it in his head. No, it wasn't my fault, it was hers. She did this and this. Like, you are going to paint her in that light even after you took her life. Like you still have the, like when the truth is he was just a coward who wanted out of this life. Yeah. This beautiful life that he built. Um, because he thought the grass was greener on the other side. Yeah, with his mistress and I won't get into my conspiracies, but it is weird that they talked before and after, and her phone pinged right next to his work during this time. But yeah, and she's a woman, so, and, uh, she knows what's going on. She, yeah. Yeah. She, she knows what's going on. She also stalked Shan Ann's Facebook the entire time leading up to it. Yeah, let's, but but be dating a woman that was, uh, had two kids and was pregnant, so there's nothing sick or fucking twisted about that, but yeah, no, not at all. Not at all. So, um, he eventually admitted to what had happened and, um, how he took Nan's life and then he took them all to the oil field and he put them into. I can't even say it. It's really hard to talk about kids in that manner. But the kids and Shanan were, well, Shanan was buried in a shallow grave and the kids were disposed of in a, in a oil container. Well, and I think that just shells you, everything you need to know about him. Um, you know, like you wanna be, and sorry, but you wanna be that big of a pussy that just ask for a divorce. Just ask for a divorce. And if you don't want the kids involved, then just say, Hey, you can have 'em full time. Yeah. I, I don't like whatever. As a mom, we'll take that on. Like, that's a difficult thing to hear from the father of your kids, but we'll get the divorce and we'll keep the kids a hundred percent of the time if that's what's best for them. But you decided that you needed to do something so definite and so just disgusting and make them pay for the lack of responsibility that you wanted to take in the situation. That it's just like, ugh. It just, I, I just, I wanted to kill him like I did. I wanted to just like, be disgusting and what's so sickening and like, this has nothing to do with the case, but like, just like learning. Well, I know that there's, he's had some interviews from jail and, uh, the different guards have said he's not very popular in jail, which is good to hear. Yeah. But he does get a lot of fan mail and nude photos and like what? Yeah. People are obsessed with him and they think that he's misunderstood and it's just like, it's so dark because it goes right back to what we said of like. And this is so cliche. I remember reading this on Pinterest years ago, but you know, a lot of these things do stand true. But the, the devil isn't dressed in a red cape and horns, he's dressed as everything you've ever wished for. Yeah. And I think that this man just doesn't fit the image of a monster that we typically are, are handed, you know, like the Brian Bergs of it all. Yeah. Or Jeffrey Dahmers of it all. Mm-hmm. Like they can look really normal. And unfortunately with this, like the red, the red flags were ignored. I will never forget, I will never forget when this came out. And I like creeped on her Facebook. She posted this picture and she said, I don't know what to think about this. She was sent a photo from Chris Watts's phone and Chris was watching the girls and it is a doll on the couch laid down on a pillow. Yeah. And it's wrapped up and a white paper. Hmm. And it's just a photo. And Anne, as she did, she posted everything on social. Everything was a moment. Yeah. She, you know, captured her life, the good, the bad, the ugly. So people could build that connection with her. But she posted this unknowingly on Facebook and said, I don't know what to think about this. This was just shortly before her murder. Yeah. And I mean, sickening, right? Ugh. But it also goes to show like all these people, like all these women sending him this fan mail and these nudes, um, you now know that he is a extreme. I mean, if anything is the most extreme red flag, it's him. All these women and all these people know that. And you are still attracted to him. You're still sending him nudes while he's in prison for taking the lives of his wife and their unborn child and his two living children that he built relationships with. And you still are like. Hmm, hmm. You know, so Yeah. Some of you, some people are just attracted to red flags. Yeah. Like I think it's just a sickening thing that like, I don't know if it's, I don't know what it is, but, um, he was convicted obviously without be, without the possibility of parole. He's tried to challenge it. Yeah. Which, which, what are you challenging buddy? There's nothing to challenge. Um, yeah. So it's, but the other piece of it too is like, listen to your friends. Yeah. Listen to your friends. If your friends are confiding in, you take whatever they say serious. Yeah. Uh, because you never know anyone, ever, and it is really hard to speak up. And that's why, you know, I do wanna commend Hannan, um, you know, for like in her life. She unfor she did everything right. Yeah. She did everything right. And, um, it just makes me so sad too, because she, she wanted the fairytale ending. Yeah. You know, she wanted the fairytale ending. She got her kids, she got her house. She was, you know, building a life for herself. And unfortunately, some monster took that away from her. But, well, and I think that also goes to the fact of like, um, let's not always place blame on the victims, right. Because I know there's a lot of people that came out and were like, she was texting her friends about this, this, and this, and it's. Those are just normal conversations we have with our friends though, when we have rifts with our husband or just things, not all of us are like, oh, okay. Uh, Courtney's having problems with her husband. That must mean that he might be a murderer. He might take out their whole entire family. Nobody thinks that way. And that's just not a valid like point to always like, oh, maybe Shannan was this nagging, like, you know, didn't make money, this and that. Okay, so that deserves to be killed. Are we like setting the standards lower on what deserves, um, you know, deaths now? Like are we judge and jury for that? Yeah. Like why does everyone try and come up with this, like this reason as to why it happened? There's one reason and it's this man was sick and he was twisted and to do what he did, he had to be completely mentally unraveled. Mm-hmm. Like there's no other, this isn't something that you just snap and do one day. Yeah. Like you are not. Right in the head. Yeah. Like you didn't just take one life, but you took the lives of the two daughters that you had relationships with. Yeah. You, you took care of them, you bathed them, you fed that, like all these things and this child that you haven't met yet either. So it's like, no, there's no part of that. That can be anyone else's fault or any other reasoning that needs to be made besides a sick individual did something so sickening. It had nothing to do with her. It had nothing to do with her friend. Um, you know, unfortunately, I think if he was with somebody else and, and they did get a divorce, I think this would've happened to them. I don't think this is just something that like. You just think of one day and then it goes away. Yeah. Like, you're sick that, that's gonna continue. He was sick and he Yeah. Somehow thought that this was a cop out. You can't just, you can't erase a, a life and then get a brand new one. Like, that's not how this works. Mm-hmm. And it just like, it makes me so sad though, too. And, um, you know, I, I have seen the different threads and you've seen with every single case, the victim blaming, which always will just break my heart. Yeah. Because no one deserves this. No one deserves this. But the other end is. She thought some of those things too. She wrote a note to him, uh, before she left on her trip and it said, sorry, I'm so controlling. And you know, like she, she also felt things like she, she thought, yeah, she thought she was to blame, you know, like for, for a number of things. And I think if you are like in a unhealthy relationship that you tend to blame yourself for a lot of things like that are going on. And I don't know, I just like wanna add this in. Like, you're not to blame for anyone else. Like if, if someone else is like acting out or getting angry or whatever else, like that's on them and like their emotions you're not to blame. We have choices too, right? Like everybody can be controlling or everyone has their things right? That are, um. That make us insecure or make us do things that maybe we're not proud of, um, as far as like being controlling or nagging mm-hmm. Or this or that. Right. We all have those components, but everyone has a choice. And, and if it's so detrimental to your life and your mental happiness and this and that, then you have the choice to leave. But that means you leave, right? Yeah. That means you leave and you ask for a divorce and you, and you, you move on. Yeah. Um, it doesn't mean that you go and have an affair and do unspeakable acts. Yeah. There's no excuse for that. There's no justifying that by someone else's behavior. And it just goes to show that like. Especially in today's day and age, that social media can paint something totally different than what is going on inside someone's life. Right. You might, you might see a picture of a husband and wife, and you might think, I, I'm envious of them. It seems like they have everything. It seems like they have, you know, the business, the kids, the family, they seem so in love. Mm-hmm. Like, and that's the image that we are able to create on social media. And, um, I, I just want everyone to understand that like what you see is not always what is happening behind closed doors. Like, you envy someone's situation, they might be and be yours screaming for help inside, actually, you know what I mean? Like, they might be so terrified of their situation and so disgusted with their situation that you are simultaneously envying. So we don't know just by these stories in these, in these pictures that are posted on social media, what is truly going on in someone's life. So, stop. Thinking that you do and stop comparing and stop ending because just, just focus on your life and living it because it's not, not everything is what you think. It's Yeah. And that's scary, but it is so true to today's day and age. You know, I worry about the younger generation growing up. They rely so much and so heavily on what's the latest trend on TikTok? Well, what's this person posting on Instagram? Now I'm gonna kind of curate myself to kind of like match that image. And it's like. It is kind of the Mandela effect or whatever you're talking about. It's not the Mandela effect. Okay, you guys, I will be talking, I will be teaching Courtney about the Mandela Effect on next, uh, on not next week, on next months. Uh, moms After Dark because if you know the Mandela Effect, you know how crazy it is. I am a tin foil hat. Girl, and I cannot wait to teach Courtney what the tele effect actually is. You know, wear tinfoil hats on that episode. Can we please actually, okay. Oh, um, I'm saying something seeming Yes. Like something, it isn't like something it isn't, and we convince ourselves in our mind if that's what it's, yeah. And I, I think we said, I said this last week, how we romanticize these parasocial relationships. Mm-hmm. And like we, we want what they have. Yeah. You know, we, we see this house that they're in, we see this relationship that they're in. We see how well their kids look like they're behaving. We see, you know, this romantic date. We don't know if he was screaming at her on the way to that date. We don't know. Yeah. No, we don't know. Like if they, you know, are just button heads or like if divorce is on the table, we don't, or, or maybe they are doing wonderful. We don't know, but we don't know. Yeah. We don't know. So. Take social media with a grain of salt. Yeah. What you see is not always what you get. Um, unless it's my food page, the food actually is good. That's factual. But yeah. But everything else, yeah. You know, um, that you see on social media might be a lot. I don't know. No, I mean, I think this resonates with moms. I mean, this case was a while ago, but I think it's still, um, still riles me up just the way it did then. And I think it does just because, um, as moms, you know, we can all relate to some aspects of her life or some things that she showed or some ways that she was living. Um, we can all relate to, watching our husbands with our children and never imagining it. It's just, it, we're moms and it's sickening to, to like just still think about it to this day. I just don't think it's something that goes away. And I think that's why it doesn't really feel resolved to me because there's no amount of punishment that I feel like it is good enough for it. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't think, you know, like, yeah, great. He's, he's gonna spend his life in prison, but it's not enough. It's not enough. It's enough. Like, and that's, that's kind of what we wanted this series to be, is like those cases that stick with us and why. Yeah. And this one is because we all, like, we are, we're so clo like we're, we're in the same age group. Well, yeah. I mean, chanam would've been I think 40. Um, but like we, we look back on it and we're like. Okay. Like we can see the similarities. Yeah. It's like bits and pieces. It's like, how, how we, I met my spouse on Facebook, you know, like, and then you go off and you get the house and you have the kids and like, and you're posting online and Yeah. And all of this. And we're like, oh my gosh. It, it feels like it, it feels like a friend. Yeah. And then like, you see this person, you see all the videos that she posted and her laugh and her smile and all of this, and you're like, that could have been a friend of mine. Yeah. You know, just, it hits home in such a, in such a way. And there's cases, at least for me, I'm, I, you know, I am a crime junkie through and through. Um, but there's some cases that I've listened to that just stick with me and just hit a little bit different because they feel so, yeah. So relatable. Unfortunately. No, and I mean, we appreciate everyone listening. We know this is like a heavier, heavier topic. Um. You guys asked for it? Yeah. You asked for it on our social media. Yeah. Okay. Um, but I think it does bring awareness to a lot of different aspects. Um, you know, the social media presence, just reaching out when you need help confiding in your friends. Make sure that you have that friend base that you can confide in that are gonna show up for you. Um, when, when shit gets dark, when shit gets bad, and they're just gonna know you to your core where they know that things are off or things are not, you know, adding up. Um, I think that's important. Like a lot of us, you know, we touched on a, on a episode a few weeks back about friendships and things like that, and I think that like holds a huge importance just knowing that you have that friend that you can reach out to and be like, Hey, I think something's up. My husband's acting weird, or this or that. Like a lot of us, you're not gonna do that on social media, and that just goes to show those aren't really, you know mm-hmm. All your friends, like you're doing something for a presence and an appearance. So it's important to be able to be vulnerable with people. And I think that's a huge thing to take away from this, is just like having those support systems and those people in your life that you can be vulnerable with and be completely open and honest with. Um, because it makes a difference. Maybe they didn't find out that it was Chris if her friend hadn't showed up, or if her neighbor was like, mm, I don't care to look at my ring footage. Or, oh, I'm scared I'm not gonna show it, or, you know, it was different people being vulnerable. That helped. Bring that case to its totality. And although it's not everything that we wanted it to be, as far as like, he, he's not gonna be punished in the way that we do. He's being held accountable in a sense. And I, I think that's because of those people that knew her. Mm-hmm. And those people that were vulnerable enough to show up and be like, Hey, no. Yeah. And this ain't right, and this ain't right, and this ain't right. And here, here's this. Look at this. Does this help? Like Yeah. People showing up and being helpful. Yeah. Like, still needs to exist in today's age. Right. Agree. But heavy. Um, but we hope that you guys, at least, you know, if you didn't know about the case, know. Now, and now you guys. Yeah. It's hard to, A lot of you guys probably did know this taste, but Yeah. I think we all need the reminder Yeah. Of, of stay close to your friends. Yeah. Talk to people when you're going through something and I mean, and if it does anything if you're like us, you're gonna go, you know, look at her page after this and I hope you see her smile. And I hope you see her kids happy. And I hope those are like the things that like, uh, still bring, you know, some kind of like little, little speckling of peace to her family. Remember their names. Yeah. Forget the other ones. Yeah. Remember their names. Okay. Yeah. But the, they looked like the sweetest little, little people, right. And like, that's what we should like hold weight on. But transitioning, um, from something so heavy. We had nel on last week. It was great. Um, we got a lot of great responses from a lot of you that felt heard and felt related and felt like it was a fresh. Fresh take on divorce. Let's take, let's take the other end of it too. We also had people who were like, I don't wanna listen to that episode. Yeah, yeah. Because we don't bel I don't believe in divorce. Yeah. I don't wanna listen to a whole podcast about divorce. And those people even came back and said, wait. That was such a good episode. Yeah. And a refreshing take on divorce. Yeah. So I wanna thank you guys for listening. Even if you are not on board, I encourage you to go back and listen if you haven't already. It is not a man hating podcast. No. It is all about love and new beginnings and um, respecting closed chapters. And it is all things good. She had such a fresh and like, respectful take if there can be one on divorce. It was No. Uh, and I'll be honest, my husband, he was like, oh, I don't, I don't know. I don't wanna listen to that. 'cause he is one that, you know, divorce is not an option. We work it out, we do things, you know. But even him, he was like, Hey, you know, like, don't get any ideas. But that was like a very respectful take on like what seemed to be the best decision for them. Yeah. And it was just good to hear that. Not that like, you know, fuck them co-parenting this, but you know, like, I think there's such a nasty take on that. And hers was so healthy, so it was like, it, it's an option and it's a, it's a path that a lot of people take. So we do need to hear that side of it, and we do need to hear the positive, healthy takeaways from it. And she did such a good job with that. She did. And I think everyone just liked having a guest on where they heard different perspectives, because as people and as human beings, the best thing we can do is listen to other people's opinions and perspectives and not just be so closed off. So I appreciate you if you felt like, I don't wanna listen, I don't believe in that. And you did. I, I just think like. That's all we can do here, right? Agree. Like and agree. We will continue to have guests going forward. We're excited. We have a lot of fun stuff lined up. We, we will have someone coming on, you know, our next guest will be talking about, you know, a traumatic event that happened to them in high school and their grief journey and how it's kind of like evolved and transpired into their current, you know, life, motherhood going forward, marriage. So we are excited. We have some other really fun stuff planned, um, for, you know, mom owned businesses. We just have so much fun stuff. We have so much fun stuff, but we have to leave a little, little inkling of, um, just a little bit surprise. So stick with us. This will be a one month, uh, or a one episode a month thing where we cover these different crime cases and podcasts. Again, if it's too heavy for you, we get it. It's only once a month. Yeah, you don't have to listen, but continue to listen after that because we will go back to our lighthearted funny chaotic. Stuff that her and I chit chat about and the guests that are to come. So we appreciate you being here. Yes, thank you. We love you. You love you. See.