Born or Made?

Ben and Martin take on the question, 'Is there such a thing as a natural born leader?', unpack what Lead Every Day really means, explore the characteristics they believe define great leaders, and introduce the Golden Rules of Leadership that shape their thinking.

Big on real-world insight, this episode challenges the idea that leadership is reserved for the chosen few. If you’ve ever wondered whether leadership is something you grow into — not inherit — this is where it starts.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Leader Everyday podcast with Martin the Compt and Ben Mooney, where we talk about all things leadership related. Now, Martin, before we do get into a conversation about uh about leadership, it probably would be a good idea to introduce ourselves a little bit for those people who don't know us. Uh so would you like to kick it off for us?

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Yeah, sure. So hi everybody. Uh my name's Martin Lecomte. Um, I have been leading people in teams for I guess the last 30 years-ish. Um, and and have run my own business and worked in a number of corporate roles. Um passionate about leadership, kind of fell into it a little bit, but really passionate about it. Um outside of work, uh, I have a 15-year-old daughter, Ray, who is the light of my life, but she's got to the stage where I'm now an embarrassing dad. Um, I've I live on the south coast of um the country, having moved to about a year and a half ago, and absolutely love it. Ben, what about you?

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Yeah, so hi for those who don't know me, Ben Mooney. Um, I've been, I guess, in the sphere of learning and development for 20 years now, um, most of that being in large corporate finance. The last 10, I guess, is where I've been really cutting my teeth with the role of leadership, working with leaders and leading teams. Um, outside of work, I'm you can probably tell from the accent, I'm based an hour north of Manchester. Um, I live at home with my wife Vicky and my bulldog Stella, she needs to be mentioned. Um, and uh I'm a passionate beekeeper as well, which is fairly new, so I'm two years in. But I must admit, I'm already finding it really fascinating to see the amount of parallels that lie between hive life and leadership or uh building cohesive teams.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

So I'm sure that'll come out more in future podcasts and some of that relationship between beekeeping and leadership and teams.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah, maybe. And if you want me to rock my beekeeping suit, I can absolutely do that, you know. It looks very cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

I'll pass for now, but you know, if you really want to see Ben, excuse me, in his beekeeping outfit, let us know.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Thanks, Ben. So before we do get into a conversation about one of the topics, and again we'll keep coming out to anyone who's listening to find out what you'd like us to discuss. Um before we get into today's topic, I think it'd be worth just just talking about what Lead Everyday is about, and not just as the title of the podcast, but also why we're doing this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Yeah, no, and I think we both talked about this quite a lot. Leadership can be lonely, right? So we we want this podcast to be about a kind of safe space for leaders to come, listen, interact with, get a little bit of hopefully a little bit of encouragement, motivation, advice. You know, we'll share what we believe that doesn't necessarily make us right, and we'll always talk about that. Um but but also just to talk about some of the the things that really matter. We talk about this in our workloads, that a lot of this leadership stuff becomes very oh, the word that I use that my mum used to use is hyfalutin. And I don't know what that actually means, but it's it's it's made out to be this massive, really complicated thing, and I guess from our perspective, leaders every day is about some of those things that we can do that make a massive difference that maybe we haven't been taught how to do. What about what about from your perspective, Ben?

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah, I mean I think I think the highfalutin comment is banned on. Um I remember starting at my journey in leadership and feeling quite intimidated, if I'm honest, not just because of the the role and the task and the challenge that lie ahead, but because of the amount of resources and training courses and models and books that was suggested or recommended to me. And if I'm honest, when I looked at some of those, they were they were actually more confusing than health. And um I think it would be really a really good thing for me to look back at this and just think that we've helped in some way demystify the world of leadership for somebody. Um be that them starting out, I'll be that 20 years in, right? That that would be great.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Would it be fair to say that we're still working it out too for ourselves? We're by no by no means are we saying we're the finished article, this is a journey, not a destination thing that we're talking about. But we just I guess we want to share some of our learns, experiences, fails along the way.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yeah, and uh you're so right with we're not the we're not the answers, we're not got the answers to this. We just have views and opinions and some experiences, and that's one of the things that I would suggest we're both really passionate about. It's it's bridging the gap between the theory and the knowledge and the and the and the studies uh and and the real world, the real life application of that. What does that app to look and sound like to do it and to do it well or do it poorly? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Alright, so enough about us. What what are we going to talk about today then?

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Um, well, one of the things that we thought might be a great start was uh are leaders naturally born or are they raised? You know, are they made? That's a question that I I hear a lot just from participants and just in conversation actually. I think it myself a few times as well. Are they born or are they made?

SPEAKER_00 5:53

So maybe we start with that. Well you hear that phrase, aren't they? They're a natural leader. That's it. They're a natural leader, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

And I mean I go back and forth on my opinion of this. Right. But what's what's your view on are they can you can you be born with the with the ingredients?

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Oh, it's a good question, and I guess from a really purely personal perspective, and this is maybe a bit of human psychology, is we're all different, and leadership isn't one thing. It isn't one thing, it's a variety of different things, and we'll talk about we we talk about tools quite a lot, we'll talk about the tools, but some of those tools will be easier for us to use because of our natural preferences. So lots of people think of leaders as being these brilliant orators and really charismatic, and and that's almost the that's almost the perceived wisdom about what leadership is. But I would say in my my career, some of the best leaders I've ever had have been absolutely the opposite of that. So they haven't been those big stand-up being really charismatic, but I've probably felt the most inspired, motivated, and developed by those people rather than the people shouting out the front. There's nothing to say that that's wrong, it's just different. It takes there's lots of things that make up effective leadership, not just one. What about you? What about you?

SPEAKER_01 7:29

That's interesting. You see, that again, back to when I was starting out my leadership journey, I thought leadership was, well, that's the thing, leadership. So it's really interesting you say, you point out it's a it's a set of skills, a toolkit, rather than one thing. Um no, I was I think my opinion on this is it's kind of evolved as I've matured with my experience and my understanding of what leadership is and isn't. Um some might say I've not really matured in that in that space, but there we go. But I was on a panel a few months back, a leadership panel. Don't ask me how I got how either chose me for this thing. But I was working with a couple of people on this panel, leadership as well, experts that have experience, one of which was uh really close to working with the armed forces, and this question was raised by a panel by an audience member are you born or maid? And I was really shocked by how sure this chap was of his answer, and it was really hard, really fast. The bone and it took me back, it really did take me back. And I don't think I said that you know when you look back at a conversation, you think, oh, we should have said this. I I had that moment where I actually think it's quite sad to think of leaders being born because if you're born a leader, I just wonder how many other people, if that were true, like black and white, how many other people would not have the opportunity to try or to learn leadership, who would be fantastic leaders because they weren't born with what would be the right recipe or ingredients or whatever. So I think it's really sad to think you're born at or you're not. Um so I can't say I kind of subscribe to that view. Um yeah, then I think of some of the really good leaders that people often talk about when you're whole people and high regards, like Obama, Jacinda Ahern, uh Alex Ferguson, I think he's a footballer. Um, you know, you you look at these people and you think sure they were born with those skills, they've learned them and then they've continued to practice them and hone them over time, and they've had experiences which have which have which have really helped them.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

And yeah, and I uh it's interesting that you use those examples, and I would go actually of those examples, actually what they demonstrated was different depending on the circumstances. So they didn't just have one style, they had a number of different styles or tools that they used to be able to do the right thing at the right time. Now, you know, and if you've worked with Ben and I before, you've probably heard this example. Everyone talks about Churchill being a brilliant leader, but he was the right type of leader at the right time, and as soon as the situation changed, he was voted out of power because he didn't have what we believe is one of the fundamental attributes of really effective leadership. Good shell.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

And now when you talk about the fundamental, the attributes, the characteristics of leadership, I know like many people watch will know you've written co-authored a book, uh, The Ten Golden Rules of Leadership. And within that, near the start, I think you talk about three kind of characteristics uh that make great leaders.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

And again, that's just from and um big shout out to Elizabeth Fox, co-author of the Ten Golden Rules. Um, it never would have happened without Elizabeth, and she and I both know that. Um so from our perspective, those underpinning characteristics of great leadership can be divided into three things: courage, flexibility, and humility. And most people have a natural preference or strength for one of those three. But the same thing with all strengths, they can be overplayed and it'd be too much of a good thing. So it's almost, um we'll talk about this in a future pod, I'm sure, that ability, that emotional intelligence to have that self-awareness and self-management about right. So, should I be using my preference at this time or should I be using something else that I might need to develop? I get that.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

And when you talk about courage, flexibility, humility, from my perspective, those are things that I don't come out of the womb. Having I don't come out and go, wow, I'm courageous. Oh, look at that baby, it's so humble. You know, these are things that, again, like you say, you can you can learn these, you can be taught these, you can practice them, you can hone them, you can continue to use them over a career.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

But I yeah, and I'd say, but actually, you know, there are people that you meet that are naturally more they're able to speak their mind. They're they're not worried about upsetting people when it's the right thing to do, so they feel quite well. I'm just gonna say it. And actually, from a leadership perspective, sometimes that might be seen as courage, but again, potentially it's too much of a good thing if they're doing it when it's not appropriate.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

And that might serve them really well previously. Exactly. They're not born courageous, it's just that they've been exposed or they've had the experiences perhaps very early in their lives, which have which have which have made them believe or taught them the skill of courage to be courageous, and maybe that's worked out really well for them. So then they they they continue to use that.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, and I think it's a mix of skill and natural preference. So, some you know, for example, you know, and I talk about my my daughter Ray a lot uh when I'm working, and she's 15 now, but even from a really early age, she was, for example, and maybe this isn't one of those three underpinning things, but actually, if we look at it a bit more depth, probably it is. She, even from the age of five, six, seven, she's amazing like you are at building relationships. Now, no one's taught her how to build relationships, it's just something that she's naturally really good at. Now, you know, with you know, we talk a lot about hats with the leadership hat on. That is something that people go, oh, that's a brilliant leadership attribute. She's a natural leader. No, she was just, it's part of her makeup and her personality. Sometimes she can overplay that. Do you see what I mean? And it's it's just getting that balance. We are all born with a set of preferences, but over time you can nurture those preferences to become a big thing, but that doesn't mean that those things that you're not naturally born with you can't develop. If leaders are just born, we're out of the job. And I genuinely don't believe that's the case.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

And speaking about developing those skills, you know, courage, flexibility, humility, I dare say we're gonna explore some of those ways to do those and demonstrate those skills or characteristics over the following podcast, right? That that might be a kind of theme that I would suggest. Um, but maybe just in the interest of bringing those to life a little in episode, the early episodes, what would what what would you say courage might look like in a leadership perspective? Just like a real-world example for us.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Yeah, so for example, courage might be giving a really tricky piece of feedback to somebody which they need to hear that they've never heard before because no one's been brave enough to tell them. That's courage. Courage might be another another one, especially with our leadership hat on, and it's looking at it from a slightly different perspective. Courage might be challenging a process because it's not right for your people. Courage might be challenging a process because it's not right for your people. And lots of us are like going, oh, might that be career limiting? But actually, is it the right thing to do at the right time?

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yeah, potentially, and the skill is how you do that, so it isn't career limiting, it doesn't damage reputation, it doesn't damage brand, it still serves you, it still serves the team. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

It's got the Moxie to challenger. It's such a great shout, and so you know, we often talk about the what, the what is courage, but the how you demonstrate it is the result, and that can always be developed, even if it's a preference of yours, the how you do it can always be developed and explored, and you can build more muscle and strength in that area with all those experiences like you mentioned before. Okay, that's useful.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yeah, that's useful, and I think when you say courage, that I mean instantly gravitate towards um uh you know Wizard of Oz, and I see the lion there running down, but it's useful to hear a couple of examples and we'll continue to bring that to life. I'm sure I love that. Flexibility might be a little bit easier to grab. I mean, when you say flexibility, I think of um you've already covered flexing the approach and people like Churchill, you know, he had a method which was which served the time, but again, if you're not able to flex, then you get bored and half power. Now, from a leadership perspective, you can see actually in the book, uh, you talk about treat people as they need to be treated, right? That's one of the golden rules, yeah. Um and I can see that I've made a mistake. I've continued to make the same mistake throughout my leadership career of treating people as I like to be treated. So a one-to-one would be, oh no, this works for me, I'll do that thing. And they're thinking this isn't working for me, but I'm thinking I'm a really good boss. I'm doing what worked for me. Yeah. Um so I get the flexibility thing. And it's interesting that I think we've also had a conversation previously, it isn't just about flexing from person to person, their needs can change over the course of a month, a week, a day. I mean, how dare they? Right? But they their needs change, and I guess one of the characteristics of flexibility is recognising that we need to move to give them what they need at that time. Absolutely. So the flexibility makes sense. Humility might be an interesting one. I don't know if many people think of leadership and humility going together in the same sentence.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

What's sure? Well, it's interesting because those and you know, we haven't prepped this, but those three people that you mentioned: Ferguson, Jacinda Ahern, and Barack Obama, yeah, all during their careers have demonstrated great humility. So uh I'm gonna use Obama as an example because he's a personal hero of mine, politics aside, and one of the things that he said when he left office was one of his biggest regrets, and one of the things that he held himself responsible for was not being able to change the gun laws in America. So he's almost going, I got this wrong, and that ability to have that self-awareness, and it's almost having the confidence to say, you know what, I'm confident enough to say that I got this wrong.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah, I can understand it. I've I've heard for Lida before who I've known Leader in the past who demonstrated flexibility really well, but perhaps to other people they maybe overplayed that strength. And there was there was a view from some that that was weak.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah, and are you talking about humility or flexibility then? Humility, yeah, because I I think you mentioned flexibility, but I was sure you meant humility. No, no, no. But it but it you're right, and then other play, and it might and there's there's almost a bit about right to how do I there is a bit of flexibility, how do I flex my approach at the right style at the right time for the right person?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Which goes back to what you said before, you could Ali, I get the characteristics, I can see that all of those are important approach, flex, humility, but overdone, or if you lean on one too heavily, I can see that you can have it.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

And it's weird, the work that you know I and now we do, when you start to talk to people about it, everyone has a preference. And it's almost right, so it's almost having those tools in your toolkit and like going, right? So courage is my is my comfort zone, and I'm saying that with somebody that cover courage is not my comfort zone, the opposite. Um, but if courage is my comfort zone, I'm never going to worry about using it. What I need to do is to make sure that I don't overuse it, yeah, yeah. And we're just playing with these flexibility, I'm pretty comfortable with, but I have to put a lot of thought into it because I'm drawn into doing what I like, so I have to be really mindful about how to demonstrate flexibility, but I can do it, and then and again, this is just examples, and humility is the one that feels the most uncomfortable to me because it's not my experience of what other leaders do. So I might need some help and support, and I might I might need to challenge challenge challenge channel my own development into developing my humility, and I might need some help with that.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

And and I think of all of those things, how important is it to make sure that if you're uh channeling humility and really trying in that space, you're doing it with you know, you're doing it authentically. Yeah, it would be it would be, I would suggest quite damaging if that were not the case. No, 100% it's a great shower. Yeah. Um so we we we did talk about golden rules, or we mentioned, we mentioned a few of them already, you know. Um but it might be worth just spending a few moments talking about what those are, just in case anyone listening is hearing those words for the first time. But what are the golden rules and where did they come from?

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Okay, so the golden rules came from mine and Elizabeth's personal experience, and I think we're probably not the only ones, and we talk about this a lot, we got the badge of leader before we got the toolkit that went with it. So we were told what to do, and this isn't this isn't a blame thing, but we were given the job going right, so now go and do it, but without loads of the how.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

How many times are people promoted because they were technically good at the job and think you'll be great leading the team? Oh why? Because they might see, oh, you've got some really good flexibility, or something, but they're not helped with the skill of how to do it.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

And the phrase that we use, just because I can drive a car doesn't mean I can fly a plane. Leadership and task are two different things. The task bit might help me, but that doesn't make me a really good leader. So ostensibly, the 10 golden rules of leadership came about with all of the things that I wish that I'd known based on the mistakes that I'd made. And here are the here are the 10 things that from Elizabeth and my perspective make up really effective leadership. So the first golden rule of leadership is know your people, know your people, know your people. And it's about knowing them as a person, not as a resource. So what is it that really motivates them? What in what inspires them? What do they love about their job? What hacks them off? What gets them up and out of bed in the morning? Because then, for me as a leader, then I can flex my approach to give them what they need. So there's 10 little things like that, and we won't go through all 10 now, we'd love you to read the book, but all the things that you know, all the tools that we'll talk about, or some of the conversations that we'll have in future pods, probably are underpinned by mistakes that you and I and Elizabeth have made and things that we've learned along the way to we say this quite a lot, to help other people, and that's why we want this podcast to be a great resource for us and other leaders too, to help falling into the same traps as we did.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Yeah, and I guess we don't say this as a plug for but we say this because again, the lots of the conversations we'll have, I would suggest, are going to be rooted in the thinking that sits in here, right? That's why we say this. But we'll also be, as you said at the start of the podcast, Martin, we'll be talking about not just the times when we've got things running, but probably more so the time the mistakes that we've made, in the hope that that's just a little bit uh a little bit more relatable uh for people out there. 100%. Okay. Good stuff. Well, listen, we I think that brings us nicely to wrap up our time for the pod, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Unless there's anything else you'd like to cover? No, I think that's a well, hopefully from your perspective, that's a that's a good place for us to start. We'd love, and I think Ben mentioned this at the beginning, we'd love your ideas. What what are some of the things you'd like us to talk about and share our perspective on? Remembering, that doesn't necessarily make us right, but we'd love to hear from you to make this a bit of a community rather than just a one-way process.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah, and if if you do want to get in touch and let us know what's on your what's in your head, um you could contact us uh via LinkedIn, of course, Martin the Compte, uh Ben Mooney. If you're on Instagram, you can check out the leadership guys as a tag and contact us that way as well. Or of course, just leave some messages on uh on the podcast. Great stuff. Yeah, that's it from now, but thanks very much for listening. Or if you watched, thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. Cheers, everybody.