Leadership vs Management - The Hats

Ben and Martin explore the fundamental difference between leadership and management — and which hat you should be wearing in any given moment. They unpack what each feels like from both sides, why it matters, and when to switch between them. Through Martin’s three core characteristics of great leadership, courage, flexibility, and humility, they examine real-world scenarios like giving feedback and delegating tasks, revealing how the same situation demands completely different approaches depending on whether you’re wearing your leadership hat or your management hat. If you’ve ever felt unsure which one to reach for, this episode gives you the clarity to know which hat fits the moment.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hi, and welcome back to another edition of Lead Every Day with Ben and Martin. Great to have you with us again. And we're going to focus today on um a message that we had, uh text that we received from Darren B. So thanks very much indeed, Darren, for getting in touch. And one of his comments was as a leader, he becomes quite frustrated sometimes about the focus on numbers and stats without the same level of focus on team. And it's something that we come across quite a lot. So, you know, we thought it'd be good to have a chat about it today. And I guess one of the things that we talk about is it's almost that difference between management and leadership about where that focus is. So we're going to spend a bit of time talking about management and leadership, what the differences are in our minds, and some of the characteristics of a really effective leadership, and hopefully give some examples too.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

And just to caveat that, just because we're talking about our experience and our examples and our views on the differences between the two, it is just our views, as we always say, that doesn't necessarily make us right. Where do we start with this question?

SPEAKER_00 1:22

So I reckon let's start off by talking about management and leadership. And one of the things that Elizabeth and I talked about in our first book, The Ten Golden Rules of Leadership, always gonna get a plug-in, was something that we termed hats. So as an individual, I can approach a task with my management hat on, or I can approach it with my leadership hat on.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Looks really good in the pub when you're doing it.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Yeah, I try not to do it when we're out and about, but we have been known to fall into that trap. So maybe the best place to start is let's have a look at those differences. So, from your perspective, how would you describe effective management?

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Yeah, and before I get into describing it, I think the two in the past have been used quite interchangeably. So that leads into part of the question that Darren's asking, I guess. Um, and I've been guilty of that. I remember stood in front of a room of people 20 years ago, being asked, what's the difference between the two, then, Ben? You know, a genuine question. And I said, Oh, not much. It's just the same thing spelt differently. And I still cringe at myself now from being asked like answering a question like that. So, um, what does management look like? Um focusing on getting the stuff done, in my view. It might be a very simple way to describe that, or the task, anything with a P-word, anything with the process, you know, I need to conduct my one-to-ones. Not because it's at the time that person needs it, particularly, but because I I need to be a need I need to be seen doing 12 a year, for example. So I do the conversation because it's on the job description.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

I'm when that happens. And there's some real benefits to that though, right? There's that, you know, it gives people a structure, it gives people some clarity and certainty. As an individual, it's almost like having a bit of a job description. These are the things that you need to get done. So you need to plan, review, analyse, you might track, but you might even have something like coach, because it's something that I need to do.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Yeah. And someone's put that process in place for a good reason, right? Because it might have been a best practice or something that they've done at a previous organization. Thought we need to do this here, we need to level a playing field and get consistent. So that's what's really good about the management, the process side, it can help with consistency. And we've we we spoke about this before, maybe not necessarily on our pod, but just as people, it there's it who you get as a leader or a manager is such a gamble. So when you have those processes put in place to help from a management perspective, it helps reduce that gamble and that risk. It's who you get.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

It's a really good way of putting it.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

How about you? What's what what would you define management as?

SPEAKER_00 4:14

You know me, I like to keep things really simple, right? So for me, management is all about doing the thing right. So if I do all these things, I'll get a good result at the end because it's there for consistency. So I'll always deliver what I'm supposed to deliver. So, going back to Darren's thing, if I follow all these systems and processes, I will hit the numbers.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Is that safer then?

SPEAKER_00 4:41

From a personal perspective, yeah, I reckon so. It's probably really safe. So I will always do a good job. I'll always be able to put a tick in the box at the end of the year to go, I've done it. Okay. And that's easy to measure. So I've either done it or I haven't.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

I've held the 12 reviews. Yeah, I've done that.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

I've given that feedback.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Yes. I have the team has delivered X. That's what I was there to do. They have hit the numbers.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

So then back to Dana's point about the frustration. Then is it any wonder, with that said, that some people gravitate towards that stuff because it is easier to measure, it is easier to prove that you've done it, it is easier to justify that pay rise you're going for looking for.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Here's what I have produced. And again, there's nothing wrong with management. It's there, it's there for a really good reason. I think sometimes, and we'll have a look at this when we have a look at leadership, there's an over-reliance on it.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yeah, I I can go back to a time when I've um cringed at myself as watching myself back on tape. Um, I remember almost villainising the word management on some kind of courses or speaking events. Because leadership was the gold standard, that's where we all want to be. Yeah. You know, we forbid that we get involved with the management stuff because that's not what we want to do. And it's got that bad rep. You know, we've got, you don't hear people talking about micro leadership, you hear them talk about micromanagement. So I wonder if the word itself has got a bad rep.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

But having said that, I've until recently, even though I've written a book, I would say I had a good manager. And it's almost, I think there's almost a bit of at a certain level you have managers, and at another level you have leaders. So you talk about leaders of organizations, and I think quite often when we're talking to clients and to to peers and even to each other, people hold leadership as this big thing that's out here that only leaders of organizations do. Everybody else is a manager, and I personally I fundamentally don't believe that. I think everybody, everybody has the opportunity to lead. So my daughter, who's 15, demonstrates great leadership sometimes, even in leading herself. With GAUD as a job title. Yeah. It's not a, and what you know, it's it's it's not a title, it's a set of behaviors. It's not a title, it's a set of behaviors. So you can have the job, you can have the title leader and be totally engrossed in management, or you can have the title manager and be totally engrossed in leadership. And for us, I think this is about how do I utilize those things for balance, not to just get a good result, but to get the best results. Yeah. So we've talked a little bit about management already. So, you know, as Ben said, that's about systems, process, and for me, it's about doing the thing right, following all those things to get a good result.

unknown 8:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

How would you it'd just be interesting to see if we're the same or different, because we might not always be the same. How do you see leadership?

SPEAKER_01 8:11

See, the first thing that stands that that I gravitate to when I think of leadership is people. So it's it's the people comes to mind more or a head off first before the process. That's the first thing. And then I also I think you even gestured it with your hands earlier. If you if you're watching, you would have seen, but you've you've zoomed out, you've risen up, you're thinking like a higher, bigger picture rather than the daily tasks or activities. You're thinking about the condition of the team, the direction of travel, the end that you have in mind. That that kind of stuff comes to me with leadership. Yeah, I like that. How about you?

SPEAKER_00 8:53

I think all of that, I I in my head, leadership, as you absolutely have said, leadership's about the people. That's not about the same as being nice or being liked, but it's almost putting the people over the process, like you said. Yeah. So if management is about doing the thing right, leadership's about doing the right thing. And sometimes, and I know Ed and I talk about this loads, that might be about breaking the process because it's for the good of the people.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

See, that's interesting, because then if I'm an if I'm an outsider, watching you manage a team, I might be looking in and thinking, wow, that's all going really well. You're doing a superb job, everything's working as it should, you know, or everything's being met from a metric and a goal perspective. But then if I look at you leading a team, which might involve, as you say, not being nice all the time, challenging some of those behaviours that have been sat on for years that need to be challenged from an outsider's perspective. Again, it might look as though the team is in chaos or disarray or unhappy or miffed off. You've got some people who are leaving. You think, wow, they're absolutely in as you call it storming phase because of the way it's been led. But it's a necessary thing to do, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah, absolutely. If I think about, you know, so we talked about the management activities, the leadership activities will be motivation, engagement, development, and succession planning. They're almost more difficult to measure. So it's very rare that someone's gonna come in and go, hi Ben, I'm really motivated today. But they are likely to go, Ben, I've done X, Y, and Z tasks and I've completed them. That's easy to measure and reward. It's much more difficult to reward team health. Yeah. Everybody sees it. So everybody sees the impact of really effective leadership in the longer term, even if in the shorter term that might be difficult. But I'm almost going every time I approach something that I've got to do in my role, which hat am I wearing? Am I just trying to get it done? Or am I trying to do the right thing?

SPEAKER_01 11:21

It's interesting when you you you spoke about a few of those examples then. People typically gravitate towards leadership as thinking that's the good stuff. But but you the things you just said then, again, celebrating the team's successes, uh, recognition, all that kind of good stuff. There's also a challenging aspect to that as well. It isn't just about doing the stuff that everyone's gonna love you for. I've already made this point, I believe. It can be doing some stuff that takes a lot of bottle and it's blumming hard work to do, and it could be classed as a thankless task. Yeah, and so it's I think it's it's really easy again to glorify leadership and to demonize management.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Yeah, but and I used to make that mistake all the time, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

And I I see a lot of people already having the preconception of those things before they even take on the role of uh people responsibility, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

And again, it's one of those things so people often say to us so what makes a really effective leader? And again, it's something that Elizabeth and I wrote about in our first book, The Ten Golden Rules, gonna get a plug-in. Yeah, um, three things for us courage, flexibility, and humility. If you can demonstrate courage, flexibility, and humility as a leader, you're definitely going back to Darren's thing, you'll be focusing on the team. Now, in our heads, that's gonna produce the results anyway, but you're focused on the people bit rather than the process bit. You're doing everything you possibly can, utilising courage, flexibility, and humility to get to help them achieve.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Okay, I get that. Uh and I think that the cracking words and headlines it will land on there courage, flexibility, humility. But there's a risk here that I think of courage and I gravitate towards a wizard of ours and a lion straight away. So it might be helpful just to build out a little bit what you mean by a couple of these. I can offer my instant view on them as well, of course. But no, you you start with the courage thing.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

So again, it's almost the courage bit is about I think you mentioned it already, about delivering some difficult messages because they made the things that need to be done. It might be courage to challenge a process that isn't working for the good of your team. It might be courage to try something new and you know, to experiment with something, even though the way it's been done before following the management process worked and got a good result. The courage might be, no, let's go and try something different. The courage might be to back your team and to challenge upwards. All of those things are courage. For me, what about you?

unknown 14:12

I can see that.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

I think I don't think I don't think I've got anything to add to the courage bit. That's that's bang on. The first the thing that really stands out for me there is challenging behaviour. You know, one of the golden rules you said never negotiate on behaviour. That that that can be really difficult to do. Yeah, simply written, but difficult in practice.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

I know, and I wrote it because I struggled with it and still do. Yeah, and still do. In and out of work, I suggest. Yeah, no, in and out of work. Yeah, in and out of work. So that for me, that's courage.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Alright.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

What's your take on the flexibility bit? Because I know you know you're a you're accredited spotlight practitioner and you you deal with all of that sort of stuff, so yeah, um, again, under the lead uh 10 gold rules leadership plug, treat people as they need to be treated.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Is it different for me? I've made the mistake a couple of times actually of thinking, right, because I like the way that a previous manager or a previous leader conducted a one-to-one, or I liked, for example, how a previous person recognised the job well done in me, if I do that stuff for other people, I'm automatically gonna win. But I think we've both had examples. I remember you've talked a few times about someone who you brought up stage and gave a bottle of wine to, and everyone's clapping and celebrating, and that person said, Mine, don't ever do that to me again. Yeah, so there's a real risk here that if we treat people as we think, treat people as we'd like to be treated, that's that's a challenge. That's a real thing to think about and flex because you've got to think, what that what do they want, and probably more importantly, what do they need from me? And another thing, it's not just a person, my head shifts day to day, week to week. So in that moment, on that task, that activity, that week, that month, I'll need this, but the next day I'll need something completely different from my leader, and it's their job to be able to flex and recognise that.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yeah, love that.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Anything else?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Nothing to add. The only thing I'd say is that flexibility is really tough, and I've experienced that going, wait a minute, it goes back to you know giving someone a bottle of wine, and I did it because I would have loved it.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

And I didn't think about that person, and it was almost, if I think about it, I was probably unintentionally doing it with my management hat on because I was like going, I've got to reward them, I'm gonna get it done. That was up, that was probably written on the to-do list, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yeah, find some way to recognise that person, tick. Yeah, okay. And the chat that's a challenge here. We speak in a very idyllic world, right? But we've got to recognise we don't live in a bubble, in a vacuum where we can be right, what's the best version of leadership in this moment? The truth is, you'll be thinking about this stuff driving home or you're coming from work, you'll be thinking of this as you're in a one-home with somebody, it'll it'll be amongst the day-to-day tasks, and that's that can be quite difficult to let's use let's use your example to put that take the hat off and put that hat on in a moment. That's that's a skill in itself, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Well, humil humility is oh, excuse us. Um humility is probably the one that has in the work that we do and the work that I've done over the last 25-30 years, is one of the ones that most leaders with the title struggle with the most. Okay. So for me, humility is all about being able to admit that the other person's right and you're wrong. It's about being able to go, being able to go, you know what, I've made a mistake and being able to own that mistake and just go, you know what, it's okay. And so many people see ownership as mistakes and stuff like that as a sign of weakness. And I think both of us would go, we believe completely the opposite. That's almost a sign of strength. And again, another golden rule: if you want someone to demonstrate a behavior, go there first. So if you want people to open up and talk about the mistakes they've made, show them that it's safe to do so. Don't just tell them that it's safe to do so. And some of the best leaders I've ever worked for or with demonstrated a sense of um humility that made me feel valued, special, and more importantly than that, safe. And I know that's something we're gonna talk about another time, but that that feeling of feeling safe and secure helps me to helps me perform better. And again, if with my leadership hat on, I'm going right, so I need to be able to flex courage, flexibility, and humility and use them to give people what they need, I'm gonna be doing a right job. I'm gonna be doing a good job.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

See, this might be a bit of a culture shock for some people because I'm sitting here now thinking, hang on, if I if I've if I've benefited from perhaps quite a traditional way of managing a team, and someone steps in and thinks, I'm gonna wear my leadership hat quite purposefully here, because I need to, it's for the good of the team, and they are they start demonstrating courage and flexibility, particularly. Hang on, they're treating people differently, what's that about? And they start demonstrating humility and admitting mistakes, and they think, wow, that's weakness. I'm just trying to play this out with a couple of teams that I've been part of before and think, how would that land with a team if someone came in and started doing this stuff?

SPEAKER_00 20:07

It's a great question. And I don't personally, I don't I'm fascinated to know what your answer is. I don't know the answer to that. Maybe there's almost a bit of you might get a bit of that's not the way things are done around here. What do you mean you asked me the question? Maybe there's a bit of internal courage to go, no, but I totally believe it's the right thing to do. And I know that I have led teams where that has worked brilliantly, and other times where I've led teams that it hasn't worked so well. And the foot, my first thought, and this is damning indictment, is to blame the team. And actually, there's a little bit of no melted. How well, how much did you really flex your approach? Yeah, or as a thing, you know, always we're always learning about this stuff. But if you can hand on heart, and I'm not gonna hit the mic, if you can hand on heart say, right, I'm doing it in the best interest of the people, you might not always get it right, but you're always doing it in the best interest of people. And if you can you can sit there at the end of the day with a glass of wine or a cup of tea in your hand and going, I was doing it for the best interest of people, and I can recognise what went well and what I need to do differently, that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

But is is that even back to the humility point, is that worth sharing with people? You know, I'm trying something. Yeah, I'm I think this is really important to me. I've read about this stuff, I've watched these guys rabbiting on this podcast about some leadership characteristics, and I think there's some things that I can maybe try and do myself. You know, I wonder if is the merit in sharing that with people, and then sharing when you're finding that tricky and sharing when you're getting it, getting it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

That's but again, that encourages other people that it's safe to do the same as well. So, with my leadership hat on, that's a good thing, and it goes back to what Darren said that is a real focus on the team and helping each other. To perform. So that's just a subtle way of doing it. Let's just play with a couple of examples with the hats, just to see if that helps. So, you know, let's have a look at two things that we might have to do quite often as leaders: delegation and feedback. So, delegation from your perspective, Ben. If you're wearing the management hat, what's the pro what's the purpose of delegating a task to somebody?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Management hat. I guess you're trying to trying to get it off the list. The list of the team, the list of your own to-do list. You're trying to get the thing done.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

So who are you gonna give it to?

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Problem a safe pair of hands. The person who you think I can give it to that person. It's not a learning opportunity for them, perhaps. I know they'll just be able to do it. Probably in the um in the uh the quickest and the and the least amount of disruption to the team.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

And there's nothing wrong with that though, right? Sometimes I just need to get it down.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Yeah, if it's a task that isn't it's urgent, maybe it's not particularly important, then absolutely why not? I need your help with this. Can you crack on? You're better at this than me.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Yeah, like that.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

That takes me ages. You're just a ninja with spreadsheets.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah, I need your help with this thing. Yeah, no brainer. So, how would that be different than if you were doing delegation from a and I think I'm I think I'm there with it, I think we're on the same page, but with your leadership hat on, what would that look like?

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Oh, well, there's I guess then you're looking at you might be considering things like succession planning, you might be considering things that maybe that person you lean on quite frequently to do that thing has shared with you in the past of their aims and their goals and what they want to do in one-to-ones. Maybe they said, I want to step away from that boss, I want to move into this space more. Well, I'm not gonna keep tying them up with the thing, despite the fact that they probably feel good about helping, and they probably feel just I'll look at the boss he's asking me to do this. That can feel good, but I'm gonna look at someone who maybe from a team perspective, zooming out. I need to fill that gap. I've got a dependency on a person. Let me bring in this person. Oh, it's gonna take time. Yeah, it's gonna take time, it's gonna take effort, it might take a bit of convincing. They might not even want to do it in the first place. Exactly right. So it's gonna take more effort and more time, but it's probably gonna benefit the team more widely. You're thinking about the people, not the process.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Yeah, and it's it goes back to I've got uh an old colleague of mine, and I love this phrase. So, Lawrence, thank you. It was from 20 years ago, but I love this. And he used to say, What gets measured gets done. So at the end of the day, when you're sitting there in your leadership appraisal, is your boss talking to you about all the tasks that you got completed? So that thing that you delegated management-wise, you got it done, or are they talking about how you've developed the team and how motivated and engaged the team are?

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

I'm thinking that's much more difficult to measure, so it probably doesn't happen as much.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Back to Darren's point that you're probably gonna see if you if you had four people and no key person dependency able to do this task and flex and lean as the business and the team needed, the spreadsheet back to Darren's point that's tracking the output of the work probably won't change. So, yeah, I get it. It it takes a lot of effort and a lot of time to delegate tasks wearing a leadership hat than it might do to delegate tasks when you're wearing a management hat. Yeah. In my experience.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

That's the sense. How about the feedback side then?

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Well, I was thinking about this, just as we were talking about the delegation stuff. So with my management hat on, there are times when I give feedback. So if I'm really on the ball, although it doesn't get measured that much, I give feedback at one-to-ones because that is the time. I definitely give feedback at quarterly or half-yearly or annual appraisals because there's a space on the form, or there's a space to say, this is the feedback that I've been that I've done. So I make sure that that person gets feedback at least four times a year.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

And there's nothing wrong with that because then you're trying to establish a rhythm, an always-on kind of approach. That's all so we're saying it as though it's a it's that's not a bad thing, that's just a management thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

No, you just make sure that that person gets feedback at least four times a year.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

With you, okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Now, with my leadership hat on, I give feedback to that person when they need it. So that might be when we go and grab a coffee, that might be after they finished a particular task. I don't save it up and it might not be written, I just do it. So, in my in my view, when I have those regular bits like a weekly or a monthly or a quarterly, that is a summary of all the stuff that I've been doing in the meantime, because I've been doing it in the moment to help that person so that they can the feedback, the purpose of it, the feedback, is to, and we've talked about this. So if you haven't seen our F-word pod yet, we talk about feedback with our leadership hats on in the F-word pod. So check that one out. I give feedback to that person when they need it, not when the process tells me to do it. So sometimes I might give someone, say, I'm gonna call this person Francis. I might give Francis feedback three times in a week. Two things about something that I loved that she did and I want her to continue doing, and one thing that I've noticed that I need her to change, because that's having an impact on their performance. I'm not gonna wait until my monthly one-to-one, because it's too late. How many people do though? I used to do that before. I've done this because it's easier, and actually, potentially, especially giving some feedback in the moment, might take courage, and I've got to have the skills to do it. So, how I do it is as important as what I do. So, maybe again, that's for us, maybe a bit of a differentiator between management and doing leadership. How I do it is more important than what I do.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Yeah, okay, I see that. Yeah, yeah, good. I hope that helps with the differential between the two because it's easy saying and speaking of it from a theoretical perspective, here's management, here's leadership. But when you think of it with a particular thing, feedback, task delegation, uh it lifts it off the page a little, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Yeah. So you know, as we get to the end of this pod, what's our what's our recommendation? I don't want to say ask because that who the hell are we to you know ask people to do something, but what would you what would you say what would be your advice to people when you're when they're thinking about hats and management and leadership, especially again, going back to to Darren's point earlier.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

I think it's a really powerful thing to g to do to take a minute and get just recognise the current lay of the land. So that might be looking over the last two or three weeks of stuff that we've done. It might be even going through your outlook calendar, it might be writing a list of all the activities that you've been involved with in a fortnight or a month, and just take a minute to categorise them. Think, did I not not was that leadership or was that management, but did I approach that from a leadership perspective or a management perspective? Like what hat was I wearing when I did it? And I wonder if we did if we did that to just to understand how we what's our default, how do we currently operate? I wonder what that might, what light that might shine on our approach and our style, you know? I love that. I love that. Take a bit of time, but it might be worth doing.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

No, I love that. The question that I have in my head, and I'm challenging myself on it, why am I doing it? So if I got this thing to do, why am I doing it? Is it because I need to get it done? And there'll be times when absolutely I just need to get it done, and that's fine. And there are other times going, I could just get it done, but is there a longer-term better way of doing it that might take more effort, energy, time from me, but it gets me a better long-term result? And then there's a little bit of it goes back to Lawrence's thing about what gets measured gets done. How do I never thought about this before? How do I help change that dynamic for some of those people around me to almost, and this is sad maybe, to demonstrate the value of leadership. I'm not sure that lots of organizations they want it, but I'm not sure that they recognize the value of it and the difference that it makes. And I know we haven't talked about this yet, but I'm sure we will on a future pod. We'll talk about how to create healthy teams. That's always a leadership thing, not a management thing.

unknown 31:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

So why am I doing it? And have I given myself, like you said, the time to think about what I should be doing and who should I be doing it with?

SPEAKER_01 31:36

It's been really deliberate. Before you walk into a task, you're thinking, which hat do I need to wear for this thing?

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Yeah, give yourself a bit of time. Because most of us are used to doing the management stuff, because that's what we've done in the past, and probably that's what's been rewarded.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Yes. Decent. I think that wraps up the conversation on the difference between the two. Darren, we really hope we've helped to answer the question, or at least just it probably wasn't even it probably wasn't even a question.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

It was a bit of a statement, a bit of a frustration. But we hope that even going, it's it's a frustration, but there's almost an allowable weakness for organizations to see where that predominance for the numbers and the figures and the management lies. And you know, in our happy clappy Ben and Martin leadership guys world, if we could change that perception to go, actually, these are the things that need to get measured and valued more, that's when we'd start to make a difference. And if the organization isn't doing that for you, almost have the courage to go, no, but that's what I'm gonna do, because it will make a difference to the results going forward.

unknown 32:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

What a place to end on. Yeah. I think what one thing to mention, Darren, we really appreciate you getting in touch with you know your view on this. And Ange, we know you've uh reached out as well to say, can you talk about this? If you're sat there thinking, we'd love you guys to talk about this subject, or would you like our view on a topic, you can now just scroll down the platform you're looking at, let it be that Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and just press text text us. And as soon as you do that, we'll get a little notification saying, Oh, you want us to talk about this or do less on that, guys. That would be really helpful from us as well. So please do use that if you have something you want us to talk about. But I think that brings us to the close today.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Thanks for listening. See you soon.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Thanks everybody.