How do you ensure communication truly lands?

Ben and Martin tackle a listener suggested topic this episode, how do you make sure communication actually lands, and sticks. Drawing on the leadership characteristics they’ve previously discussed, they explore what it takes to prepare properly before you communicate, and why congruence between your words and your actions is non-negotiable. They weigh up the vehicles worth using and the ones to steer well clear of, sharing top tips alongside real examples from their own careers, the wins and the ones that landed with a thud. If you’ve ever wondered why some messages stick and others vanish into thin air, this episode gets to the heart of it.

Thanks for listening! Be sure to follow to catch pods as they drop.

What would you like us to discuss? Let us know via Instagram or drop us a text.

#BecausePeopleMatter #DevelopmentDoneDifferently

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

With the reliance on copilot, on chat GPT, all this good stuff, you put the message in you want to relay, it spits something out whether you think crumbs, that's really profound and beautifully written, and you spout that out to people and people think they've not written that.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

That doesn't sound like them. Is the the way that I'm looking, the way that I'm sounding and the words that I'm using all aligned? What do you want your audience to think?

SPEAKER_00 0:23

What do you want your audience to feel? And what do you want your audience to do as a result of reading or listening to the message?

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Hi everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Lead Every Day with me, Martin, and in Ben. Um Ben, so what's the topic of conversation today?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

It's actually a topic sent in by someone listening in. Angela, thanks for sending this in. Angela said to us, I'm gonna read this word for word actually, because it's a it's a great point. Angela says, I'd love your views, not a question, but your views on ensuring communications truly land. And they land consistently across teams of busy people. So as soon as we had that from Angela, we thought, yeah, we're definitely gonna talk about this one. Um can I go first with this bit? I've got an idea. The first thing that comes to mind with that, Angela, ensuring communications land and they're consistent, is planning it out. Now you're you're speaking with a guy, I dare say two guys here, that have a little bit of an allergy to planning. I don't like it, I hate it, I've talked about it before, it bores me, but I get the value, and every time I do it, I'm glad that I did. And with communication, I feel it's no different. So when we say plan it out, I'm gonna get your view on what this looks like for you in a second, Martin. But for me, it's planning it out, it's thinking, what do I want this piece of communication, what do I want this message, whatever it might be, to cause? And there was a there was a bit of flourning that we did in an organisation a couple of years back talking about written communications and the planning aspect of that involved thinking about three things. What do you want your audience to think? What do you want you want your audience to feel, and what do you want your audience to do as a result of reading or listening to the message? And I love that. I think it's really important. We don't get confused by thinking, right, I'm gonna tell you what to think, I'm gonna tell you what to feel and tell you what to do. It's more of a what is it you want your communication to cause in those three kind of uh in those three topics?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

How how about you? I'm always whenever I think about planning and I get that little nudgy, I always think about one of my favourite television shows, which was Grand Designs. Yeah, and one of the most famous shows, and if you've worked with Ben and I, you might have heard us use this example before, but I'm not gonna apologize for sharing it again because I think it's brilliant. Um in Grand Designs, if you don't know the TV show in the UK, Grand Designs, um, people, it's about self-building. And this couple, years ago, um, were going to get a German Hoofhouse, which is a kit house built in the woods. Beautiful things, triangle roofs, they look gorgeous, I think. Yeah. But the German house building example, and Kevin McLeod was talking about this, was very different to the British house building example um way of doing it at the time, that might have changed. And what the Germans Hof house did is they planned everything out beforehand. So the couple went over to Germany, picked the colour schemes, picked where all the plugs were, picked everything, so everything was planned out. And actually, they spent more time planning than they spent building. So the German house building example, and you know, give us a little bit of leeway here, they typically spent 40% of their time planning, 30% of their time building, with 30% of time for contingency.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

See, I already now think about that from the British approach to building.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

And at the time, the difference was 5% time planning, 95% time building with no contingency time. And then you get the delays, the mistakes, budgets, all that stuff go out the window.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

And what the German house builders did is they planned for things to go wrong, so they had contingency plans in place. So watch the episode. I won't go into it loads now, but it's a classic hoof house grand designs. If you Google it, I'm sure it'll come up. It's amazing. But then I think about communications and I think about how I've communicated in the past. Have I really thought about it? And the, you know, what do I want people to know, feel, and do? Possibly not. I've just launched into it. I've got this thing to say, I'm gonna say it. And that's always had a bit of an impact on how that message has been received. So almost going, I love that as a almost like as a bit of a framework. What do I want people to know? What do I want people to feel, and what do I want people to do? And then structuring my communication around that, I would go, that's definitely something I'm going to take forward and really think about, especially as I'm doing quite a lot of panel speaking and public speaking at the moment. That's that's that's really good. That's really good. And then it's the then the next bit of it is the what's that communication? Why am I doing it? What's the why am I doing it? And how am I gonna communicate it? Because there's loads of different ways, which I'm sure we're going to explore in a little bit more detail.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

The how's a big one, isn't it? Is this gonna be a a phone thing, an email thing, a letter, do I fax it? You know, maybe not these days. Um yeah, okay, I get that. And and with the with the what, the why, the how, I wonder, not just from a planning point of view, but actually including that in the message that you give. You know, and you've said you want to ensure communications land. I just wonder if you've looked at work with Simon Sinek in the past, all that kind of good stuff, the power of why, you know, how powerful it is to include in the message, why is this thing happening? Say if, for example, it was change, I know that's not the actual question, but why is the change happening? How is that change going to happen? What what things could people expect? Almost like a contracting piece. What should people be aware of, be expecting to happen? What is not going to happen? What what is what are you not going to promise to commit to doing? You know, maybe that's also important to include.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, 100%. And I you just sparked something in my head, something that we've just seen in our last corporate roles, which I I wasn't sure about at the time, but actually I found quite reassuring. Our big boss at the time when we were going through a period of changing some stuff and changing the operating model, he was really clear of and he kept reiterating it, which almost gave me a sense of comfort. Going, we actually don't know all the answers yet. We're learning, we're almost learning as we're doing, so there wasn't a case of getting it right and wrong. It was almost giving us all that clarity and certainty and safety that you know what, things might go wrong, but that's okay because learning is the answer. That as a message was I personally found really powerful. Interestingly, I know not everybody found it powerful, which might lead us to thinking about something which I know you're really passionate about later.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

What we don't have all the answers. Well, why are you doing it in the first place? That kind of, but yeah, uh I can imagine that hearing that, um, please earn them a bit of a license or a bit of a right to say, no, no, I said we don't have all of the answers yet, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Okay. And as long as we have some of the answers, and it's not just a and he was very clever with how he did it, so it wasn't like a, oh, that's my default phrase. It was almost like, and it wasn't an excuse, it was like, well, no, remember we said we don't have all the answers, but here are the things that we do know.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

I suppose something that's quite important when if you find yourself in that position, you want to communicate something, you don't have all the answers, you don't want to have all the answers, you want to give the team some some play and license in this, right? Is maybe trying to communicate if you have any rules of engagement to hand, communicate what those actually are. Right? This isn't, I don't have the answers the what, but how we're gonna work. This is what's in scope. This is where we don't want to be playing, but here's where we want to be working in, folks. To give people, you can't give clarity on exactly what what the thing is, but you can offer a bit of certainty on how we're expected to work during this uncertain time.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Yeah, no, I like that. I think the next thing that we'd probably say, Angela, is about congruency. So if I'm communicating, and if you think, you know, a bit of a drop here, but if you think about the work of Alfred Maharabian, he talked about the way people communicate, which is visual, vocal, and verbal.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Yeah. So in terms of our um how we receive information, we receive it visually. So we've got to be congruent in the message that we're sending. So is the the way that I'm looking, the way that I'm sounding, and the words that I'm using all aligned. And there have been so many occasions where you see a mismatch of congruency. So I'll give you an example. I remember hearing about um in an organization that I was doing some third-party work for, an HR director was talking about how passionate they were about their new vision, but reading it off a cue card. And you could almost see the audience in their subconscious mind going, but you don't believe this. And then some of the best communicators of messages, even if they're difficult ones, doing it with that visual, vocal, and verbal, those elements all being massively aligned, and that always will strengthen the message.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

There's a there's a I wonder if there's an increased risk of this going wrong with what we're seeing these days, with the reliance on copilot, on chat GPT, all this good stuff. You put the message in you want to relay, it spits something out that you think crumbs, that's really profound and beautifully written. And you spout that out to people, and people think they've not written that. That doesn't sound like them. I know what Angela sounds like, that doesn't sound like Angela. Not to say Angela, you would do that, of course. But again, that's a that's a real example. I've seen that in the past where it was an email communication about a change or a reason for a restructure written by someone who was a senior leader but was really personable. And she made a point of making sure that her voice was heard, she was present, she was well renowned, loved in the team. And the message came through, evidently written by probably a communications team or something, right? But it lacked her personality, and it was almost the subject of the of the conversation within the team wasn't the thing that was being announced, it was that that announcement didn't feel or sound like her.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Yeah. That level of authenticity, and we talk about authentic leadership, but that authenticity and owning the message is so powerful. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

So the congruence is big. Um I wonder if there's I wonder if there's something else about making who you hear it from. Who you hear it from. Um there's there's been times, I know you've got a couple of examples of of this, but there's been times when I've heard things on the grapevine and that's not landed particularly well with with me. Or I've heard a rumour about it, oh there's a change coming, they'll pick up with you. I can't tell you much more. So you're telling me a little bit about it, but I'm not privy to all of it, and then all I can do naturally is authorise. Oh, what's that thing gonna be? You do, it's the worst case scenario, right? It's like when someone says, it's like when the wife texts me, we need to talk. I'm thinking, wow, well, this is gonna be really bad, but we've loaded this weather incorrectly. So um, yeah, we make we I guess it's uh making sure everyone to a degree has access to that message first hand from from you, from the leader. And then we when they've had it message first hand from the leader, it's then kept kept alive. It ticks over, it's constantly reinforced, and that might not be bringing everyone back together in a conference again or a group email again, it might just be constantly referenced in one-to-ones and conversations in the future.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

100%.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Uh you what sure you I know you've got a good example of this.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Yeah, I I've seen it done incredibly powerfully, and I know Ben and I often talk about when it hasn't gone so well, but this was an example of when I thought it was done beautifully, especially at the outset. So I was working in a large corporate organization and we were going through what can only be described as transformational change. So the organization was fundamentally changing its operating model. Q a lot of people listening thinking, oh yeah, that sounds familiar. Yeah, and it was, you know, there was a lot of there was restructuring.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Um, we were closing sites in the UK and outsourcing some of that work to India. Um, and the thing that the exec team at the time did is they went to every site in the UK and personally delivered the message. So, no video, they got up on stage and personally and directly delivered the message, even though it wasn't a message that people wanted to hear. The one thing that I'm almost certain that it did, because I was one of the people that was travelling around with them a little bit, was it avoided the drungle drums. So everybody heard that message first hand. So the managing director, the chief operating officer, and the chief financial officer and the HR director, they knew exactly what the message was that everybody received the same message. Now, people might people might take that message on board differently because you can't, but they know that everybody has received the same message. So for me, that was a massive bit about providing people with that clarity and certainty.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

And even if they have taken a different view of it, when they talk about it as they probably will afterwards amongst each other, they can say, Oh, I don't know if I heard it that way. There's my interpretation of it. Yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

And what they also did brilliantly, and you sparked something in my head, was they did the what, the why, and the how. Nice. And they and I still remember it was in 2006, the managing director going, if we don't make these changes, we will not have a business. That's why we're doing it. They talked about what they were doing, but the big thing said, if we don't make these changes in the next two years, we will not have a license to operate, we will not have a business. And it was almost like I've heard some bad news, but I understand why.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Now, the mistake that I think that we made, and it's a we, it's a collective we as a leadership team, is we did a bit of, and we'll probably talk about this in another pod when we talk about change, is we communicated the message, and then we like we've communicated the message. We didn't do what you've just been talking about, is reinforcing it and almost doing that next bit and going, so you've heard the message, what's your understanding of it? How does that affect you? Just or one one and done's never gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

But that's quite it. It sometimes feels easier to do a once and done because particularly if it's a less popular message or one that's gonna involve people changing something. I wonder how often is it the case that we'll steer away from that or you know, verge away because that's an uncomfortable chat. I don't want to provoke it. I'm having a really good, pleasant one-to-one conversation, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

But it again, it's that it goes back to something that I know we've already talked about in a previous pod about courage, and it's treating people as they need to be treated, so it's that courage of like, and I and I saw that on stage that day, and I was like, well, over that week, and I was like, wow, because I probably expected it to be communicated by email and it wasn't, it was communicated face to face in front of everybody.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

So there's two things that just gone it just flashed up for me. What about the the way that was communicated, and then the second thing is treat people as individuals. So maybe we can we could talk about that. First, the way it's done, I wonder if that was sent out as a group email across the whole organization with those same words, almost like a transcript of what they said. I wonder if that would have landed in the same way with the team.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Interesting, you say that they did exactly that after they communicated the message. Right. So that some people could do that double check going, is my understanding of it? Yes. Do you know what I mean? So I can go back and revisit it. They literally recorded it and sent it out to people so they could play it back again with the transcript.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

That brings us back to one thing that we often share with our clients, a little tidbit, which is some things are better said than read. That is absolutely a prime example of that being the case. It doesn't mean that you don't you don't send anything written, of course, but the thing that needs to come first is hearing it from the person, from the people. Oh, that makes good sense.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

And and and then what and then matching that with the congruency of the message, it's gonna have more impact. One of the things that, you know, it goes back to that. There's something that we talk about, especially when we're talking about change or delivering messages or communication, is communicate, communicate, communicate. And it's only when people are like going, look, shut up, I get it, that's when you've communicated enough. Before then, they've got all of that stuff going on in their head, going, you know, that might not be right. So you almost need to make sure that is that level of communication so people have that clarity and certainty, it's completely embedded.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

So you're saying that a symptom of when you've and says it, how do I make sure they truly land? A symptom of it having truly landed is when people say, We've we've we know, we've heard it, will you shut up? I'm sick of getting this.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

That seems a little bit counterintuitive though, doesn't it? You're almost aiming to, you're not aiming to hack people off, but if you do it well, they'll be sick of hearing it.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Yeah, but you made a really good point about following it up in one-to-one. So, you know, what are you thinking after that bit of communication? How are you feeling? So, again, that's again something we talked about before. Then you're talking about it with your leadership hat on, you're almost doing the communication with your leadership hat on rather than your management hat, then you're going to the people going, so how do you feel about that? Where are you, where's your head at?

SPEAKER_00 19:52

What are you thinking? So it's a multifaceted approach. You're not just sending this out by an email, and then the next week send another one, just checking you've heard it, and the next month still checking you've heard it. It's how do we how do we change the method, the medium in which people are hearing the same message? That makes a lot of sense, and that's that's important for some people, right? That's a point you made earlier: treat people like individuals. Golden rule, treat people as they need to be treated. As practitioners of insights, MVTI, spotlight, disc, all that kind of good stuff. We know some people like to receive messages and read messages you know audibly, some people verbally, some people written. And you it's you're right, and you need to cover all those bases. And not just the style of how that's delivered, but the content of that as well. People wouldn't want to read about oh, it's the impact on the people. You know, other people might think, well, what's the impact on the business? What's the bottom line? How does it affect me? Others might be thinking, well, what are the steps? What are the analytics? What's the data that supports this decision? So it's thinking about not making them so generic and perfectly polished so that they meet every single person's preferences, but just do enough so that you you're thinking if someone's leading with a blue preference to quote insights, what might that message look and sound like? And how would that differ to if I'm sending it to someone like me who leads with yellow?

SPEAKER_01 21:22

And and that's another link into leading leadership on flexibility. Going, how do I flex my style and approach or make sure all those bases are covered so I know that I'm I have my strength and I have my development areas, and some of those development areas are really big and deep. Don't laugh. Um, but then I'll go to somebody else, probably not Ben, because we're too similar like that. But I'll go to somebody else and go, hey Christine, can you read this for me? Can you tell me what you think and what you get? And Christine. Great colleague of ours would always go, No, you need to do this, or you've missed a bit out, and it wouldn't naturally come to me. But she's helping me by the same token develop by going, No, you need to say this. That didn't land quite right, Martin, because you've done this. And I'm like, Oh man, but it would have landed with me, but I haven't thought enough about the other people.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

So I'm I'm smiling because the amount of times that I've written an email and I said to my missus, babe, can you just can you just check over that? And I'm not and it's really poor instruction from me. I'm not asking her to check over how it's written. I'm asking her just to spot any spell mistakes that haven't been tricked, picked up, right? But she'll come back and she'll say, I don't get what you're saying. I'm like, how can it, how can that be more clear? Yeah, because she's a very different preference to me. So that's that's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

That goes back to plaiding it out. So all of that stuff that you're doing, that's before you communicate it. So almost if you can, and this is something that I'm trying to do, go before you press send, especially if you're communicating by email, have you spent enough planning? Have you got someone to proofread it? Not just for spelling mistakes and grammar, but does it pass the make sense test? If I was reading and that was a different preference, how would I get it?

SPEAKER_00 23:13

What a great opportunity as well to build a relationship with someone in a team, a team member who might not be the go-to person you normally lean on for that stuff, right? In fact, maybe there's another idea there. Who, when you're thinking of this communication, this thing you're gonna send out, who are the people or who's the person who you would feel is your biggest opponent? Who would present the biggest challenge? Who's the person you're we're really really worried about presenting this to as you're forming it, and then use them as a litmus test?

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Yeah, love that idea. Especially if it's something that you don't have to communicate to everybody at the same time. Do you know what I mean? It's that balance between all is it. It's not component. Exactly. Yeah, the other thing that pops into my head is, and this is something that lots of organisations are asking us about, and I know in our previous organization there was loads of work on it. In communication, don't underestimate the power of storytelling. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Now I know this is a this you're passionate about storytelling. Tell us more.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Well, it's and I and I'm I again I'm borrowing or stealing with pride, as we used to say. Um, um, an insight that I got from a uh a colleague of ours a few years ago. Um is about think about when stories were the most relevant to you as a kid. You sat there, you listened, you created visions and stuff in your own head. So um you get someone to immerse themselves in it by the power of storytelling. And we always say don't make yourself the hero of your own story. So if you're telling, if you're doing stories to talk about something, make it about somebody else. If it's some if it's a personal success that you've had, use a bit of poetic license and make it about somebody else. I still remember, and I'm sure it'll be on YouTube somewhere, um, about um the chief executive of I think it was T Mobile, and he used a storytelling analogy to describe where they were at, going, People, we are on a burning platform. Yes, and I still have pictures in my head and of an oil platform burning. And I know that wasn't the platform he was referring to, but that visual imagery and that storytelling, if we don't do this, yeah. My old managing director, um, we're talking about that big change thing. He was talking about if we don't do this, we won't have a business. But then he also said, I'll do everything I can to help you. I know this is really difficult. I've been in times where I found it really difficult. I didn't know how to get through. So if you need us, that's what we're here for. Again, really powerful. Don't underestimate the power of people engaging with a really great story or anecdote.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

I mean, that can be quite. I'm just thinking, if I was gonna communicate something, I'd be thinking, where do I start with that? How do I write a story that doesn't feel like, alright, folks, let's sit down. Once upon a time, this how do I make that business related? How do I make that authentic? I'm not a writer. How do I how do I know if it's if it's gonna hit the mark or not?

SPEAKER_01 26:32

I go back to what you said before, which is right, so plan it out. Don't underestimate that planning bit. What so what do you want people to know? What do you want people to feel? What do you want people to do?

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

So actually, if I can if that's intrinsically part of the story and I can weave that in, that's a really good starting point. If it's something that you know that loads of people can relate to, so it's a third-party example that everyone will understand. So, for example, um, I remember somebody talking brilliantly about change and adaptability, and they talked about blockbuster video because everybody knows of a certain age, my daughter won't know who the heck blockbuster video were, but they had the opportunity to change, but they went no. And now Blockbusters doesn't exist, and everyone can relate to that, so it's almost right. Okay, I can almost I can understand the connection, and that makes the message easier to assimilate.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

I get it, I get we you there's something that I'm actually really proud of this. Some uh from a few years back, I was uh running some sessions on feedback in in an organization, and one of the stories that I told about about this this within the session was about when I had some feedback about being a bit game show hosty, and years later someone wrote to me, uh give me a bit of feedback or give me a testimonial, whatever it was on LinkedIn perhaps, and said, uh oh, and by the way, you're totally not a game show host. And I thought, wow, that stuck with them for two and a half years, maybe three years. I don't know how much of the rest of the content did, but that certainly landed.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

That's a humility story, which is a brilliant way of anchoring the message. Yeah. Don't underestimate the power of storytelling.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

I hope this is helpful. We're just we we're kind of rattling through a couple of ideas that just I mean, and it was a great topic, and as soon as you said it, we put our pen to paper and thought, that's a really good challenge, actually. What would we touch on? I've got a final few maybe thoughts to share here. Um, I don't know if if you've got another one to add to the list. The final one for me was owning the message. So I've been in a position, I'm sure many people out there have, where you a message has been cascaded. You are told to share this message with your team, and therefore you you might be thinking, well, these aren't my words. I disagree with them with the message, I disagree with the action, I don't want to do this thing, but you're paid to do that. The biggest thing that I've seen someone made the mistake of in the past was saying, listen folks, this isn't me. I disagree completely with this, but I'm being told that I've got to let you know. And I get why they said it, because it I guess in their head they were thinking, this makes me authentic. This is my real view. But actually what it did was um what's the word? It took away the the the the the not the importance of the message but the it undermined the message. It wasn't as credible, perhaps. If they would have said this and I have a view on this, um and my view might differ from what the course of action is, but we need to get behind this and rally because that's what we're paid to do. That they would have uh gained more respect. Yeah. So you can still disagree with it, but show alignment with it. Yeah. Yep. Couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

How about you? What's um? Yeah, I know. I don't I you know, the more we think about it, I'm sure there's more stuff that we could put in. Maybe it's a case of going, hopefully, like you said, that's given not just Angela but other people a few ideas. Maybe now it's a case of going, right, so let's take that away, see how that how that works for you. Is there something in there that you would like to try? Like we always say, we're gonna share our thoughts, views based on our experience. That doesn't necessarily make us right, and we're not the fonts of all knowledge. But I think that's a that's a really good starting point.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Not about this, is it? I wouldn't suggest you go away and try and put all of that into pr into play all at once for every message, just picking out the bits that work for you at the right time.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Um I'm gonna leave you with one of my favourites, and you there's a slight different words you proper preparation and planning prevents pathetically poor performance. I like the way you you tweaked. You tweaked that, didn't you? Proper preparation and planning prevents pathetically poor performance. So almost, you're right, Ben's favourite phrase, start with the end in mind. What do you want people to know, feel, and do and work backwards from there? Lovely.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yeah, good. Listen, I think we'll leave it there for today, right? We we really do hope that you found that interesting, helpful. It would be brilliant to see um or to hear from a couple of people out there as well. If you're listening to this, Angela, thanks so much for the for the inspiration. If you're sort of there thinking, I'd love to hear these guys beyond this thing, or what's their experience of XYZ, you can just go down onto Spotify, Apple, scroll down to just above episodes, and press text at the show, and you'll get right through to us with your suggestions and topics. But that's all for us for today, folks. Thanks for listening, and we look forward to seeing you again soon. Bye.