Psychological Safety

The Leadership Guys turn their attention to psychological safety, what it actually is, and why it matters. They dig into the real impact of having it, and the cost of not having it, before getting practical about how a leader can actually help generate it within their team. Along the way, they bust the biggest misconception of all, that simply declaring safety makes it real. It takes action, not just words. If you want your team to feel safe enough to speak up, this episode is where to start.

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

And he said, My job is to provide you air cover. So you go and do that stuff, but if it goes wrong, I provide you air cover, and intrinsically that made me want to try new stuff.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

People saying, folks, let's make this a safe space. This is safe, let's come forth with our opinions and all that kind of good stuff. But there's nothing done to make it so.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

It's not a management activity, it's a leadership activity.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Welcome back to another episode of Lead Everyday with Martin and Ben. Today's topic is one that we're asked about quite frequently by the clients we work with, and that is psychological safety. Now we spoke about this before starting to film and record today, and we agreed we're not gonna step on the toes of Amy Edmondson, who founded you know the concept, coined the idea and the notion of this back in the 90s and in early 2000s. But instead, what we will do is talk about our views and what we think psychological safety is, the impacts of having it and not, and then what on earth we could do to agenda it. That's kind of where we thought the conversation would go today. Um so maybe a good place to start is what does it mean to us away from the theory.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yeah. For me, if I think about feeling safe, I think I might have mentioned this a little bit in an in a previous pod, but it's it's feeling valued and feeling listened to, but also feeling comfortable to challenge things when I don't think they're working and share my views and opinions without that being career limiting.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

That's the bit, innit? Without it being career limiting. What about you? I was thinking about the career limiting piece. It's where I felt in the past that I could I could go against the grain, I could voice my concerns for something again, like you said though, without it being limiting. So that in the pat in the future, what we mean by that, or what I mean by that, is that in the future someone's not gonna hold it against me. Yeah, they're not gonna say, hang on a minute, six months ago you said this, or oh, it's performance review time. Do you remember back in March when Ben was disagreeable?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

It's it's being comfortable knowing it's not gonna be used against me. Yeah. There's there's a, and I'm sure we'll talk about it later, there's a big bit about how we do that, so it doesn't become a badge, oh, I'm just being psychologically safe. There's a bit of that as well. I'm sure we'll cover that a bit later. Yeah. Again, there's there's almost something about, and it's one of those phrases, being able to bring my best self to work without worrying about, oh, there's I reckon sometimes there's a bit of groupthink that goes on in teens, going, in order to fit in, I've got to be become, if you like, star old Star Trek, one of the borg, and being, you know, just the collective mind almost, and sometimes thinking a little bit differently can be seen as dangerous, so people don't do it in order to fit in.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Of course, and like you say, being in your best after work, thinking differently, that takes me straight towards being a bit experimental, pushing the boundaries a little bit, doing something maybe we haven't tried before, knowing that it could go pear-shaped. Yeah. And if I if I've got if I feel comfortable enough to give that stuff a go, I'm probably gonna be feeling safe. Yeah. So that that's that's it's not just about going against the grain and voicing contrary beliefs and opinions, it can be feeling brave enough to give things a go, even if you know they might not go particularly well.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

No, I like that. So it's one of those phrases that is almost a phrase de jour. And I and I and I know that I've heard the phrase bandied around a little bit, or quite a bit, is that dangerous?

SPEAKER_01 4:14

I think we'll we'll talk in a moment about perhaps how it could be weaponised, yeah, for want of a better phrase. Um, but I think maybe not maybe not maybe not dangerous, but maybe if people say it without understanding how to do it, or say it without doing something to make it safe, yeah, it risks becoming a throwaway line. And for a bit of context, you hear that in and outside of work. So start with outside. There was um you can picture this at a Slimming Wheel group that I used to go to. I've moved on since if you've been following the story, I've moved on, right? And and I remember, you know, it's it's almost like the person who's leading the group saying, This is a safe space, everybody, and then you admit to eating a scone and uh ridiculed and punished publicly, you know. So just because you say it, it doesn't make it true. And again, I put that into the work example. How many times do we hear? It'd be great to hear your views on this, people saying, folks, let's make this a safe space. This is safe, let's come forth with our opinions and all that kind of good stuff. But there's nothing done to make it so.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Yeah, and I suppose that also goes back to something that we I know we've previously talked about being congruent. So just because I say it doesn't mean, like you said, it's gonna happen. What words and pictures need to match. Absolutely, otherwise people sat there going, no, it's not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

And you could say it until you're blue in the face. Yeah, but yeah. But the irony is if someone's saying this is a safe space and it isn't, people are saying, no, it isn't, but not publicly. Yeah, they're saying under breath and there's an undercurrent, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

So this isn't safe. Yeah, and then I think I've given people the opportunity to speak up, and when they haven't, I hold that against them as well. I've let them know. Why don't you come? Well, doors always open, it's that kind of flowy line, isn't it? I think we've already started to touch on, you know, one of the things that you know we're often asked about again is what so what's the impact of, especially because it's only been around since the 90s, just because it had a label in the 90s, what's the impact of having it on not having it? So from your perspective, what's the impact of I I I know what I think, but it'd be interesting to see if our views align.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Okay. What the impacts of having it first? Yeah. Um, I think we've touched on it already. Like, I I think that from a team that I've worked in that that was starting to acquire it, let's put it that way, there was go back to Lancioni, one of our heroes, right? That you see that there's an a willingness to engage in unfiltered, healthy debate and disagreement, but it's done for the good of the team.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

And uh so that is one um impact of having it, one kind of symptom of it being there, which is which is priceless.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Yeah, that's so important for a team. How about you? I I think you've covered it again already. You've made me think about it. It's it's that it's almost a guiding light to experimentation and to trying stuff out. So it doesn't, it's the experimentation, and it's like, let's try something a little bit new in that creativity. I think being safe encourages that. And I still have a phrase in my head that a brilliant boss said to me once, and he said, My job is to provide you air cover. So you go and do that stuff, but if it goes wrong, I provide you air cover, and intrinsically that made me want to try new stuff because I knew that my boss would always have my back.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

So you were still you were still responsible for the thing you were doing, but the boss was the one who held the accountability?

SPEAKER_00 8:02

100%. Yeah, okay. So what about maybe it's an easy question to answer. What about not having it? The impact of it, of it not being there.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

I think that there's likely to be a lot of lip service on a team. Yeah. People will be nodding and and and yes, I get it, boss, and then I'm not doing that. Yeah. Um you a dangerous one. People make a mistake and they don't admit it.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

So then it festers, and it can sit there as a mistake that happens, that that that then grows arms and legs and becomes more dangerous. And then instead of being being able to support and call it out and like your boss, provide the air cover. Oh that Dr.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Amy Emerson talks about that in some of the Google oxygen research, which talks about the best teams, the most successful teams on paper make more mistakes than the less successful teams. They don't, they just are comfortable and confident to share the mistakes they've made. And then that becomes normalized.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

It's just a normal thing, it's just how we do what we do here. But that means everybody learns from the mistakes because they're out in the open. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yep. And and it's the the less taboo. It doesn't feel like you're going to get your wrists slapped for doing so.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

How about you? What was uh any other anything we've missed there for not having it?

SPEAKER_00 9:32

I think that there's, and I'm I'm thinking about um a phrase that I heard a few years ago about it creates a climate of mistrust and fear. That's a nice phrase. Yeah. A climate of mistrust and fear. Yeah. And it's almost a bit of I need to walk on eggshells. Because if I don't, it's career limiting or my card is marked. So, like you said, I'll just nod and say yes. Even if I don't understand, it's not clear, and it makes it easy for the leader, not not purposefully, but to blame the individual rather than take pastal accountability for the success.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

If I don't understand something, I need to feel really comfortable to be able to say, I don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Rather than I better not say anything, and I'll go and do it, and hopefully it won't go wrong. And again, that's what some of the Google um oxygen research brought out, and it was fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

I think I've been in both of those. I've been on both sides of that fence, I think, with teams, and um yeah, it's interesting. From from the outside looking in, the team where I felt most unsafe, someone would have looked and said that's a really highly functional team, they're killing it. But then from the team that I didn't look that presented me with an opportunity to feel really safe and comfortable and admit mistakes and challenge and engage in conflict, someone looking in would look at that and say, Wow, that's dysfunctional.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah. Yeah, and it's it goes back to your thing, you know, that Lencioni thing about having that, you know, challenging the team. People come in and go, Whoa, that's challenge, that's difficult. And actually, the team are like going, no, this is just how we operate, we're fine with it. We feel comfortable enough to challenge each other openly.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah. Now, this is this people that I know I work with, friends, family, um, that would say, Oh, psychological safety, they'll put it in the category of that's fluff, that's just a a work phrase that's banded around in HR departments, it doesn't mean or achieve anything. What would you what what would we say to that sort of comment?

SPEAKER_00 11:57

I from a personal perspective, I get it, because sometimes these things get labelled and badged and they come out as a oh, it's psychologically safe. Oh, we need to make it safe, we need to make that before the 1990s that phrase didn't exist, but still the best leaders made it safe for their people, they just didn't call it anything. So it again it goes back to that thing. There's no point, in my humble opinion, there's no point asking people if they are safe. It's a dumb, it's a daft question. They'll demonstrate that they are safe by openly and respectfully challenging you. So that's when you know you've got it. If your team are, you know, we you know, when we work together, I think it it took us a bit of time to develop that safety with one another. Yeah, you're trying to figure out the rules of the game. Yeah, you're trying to figure out what can I, what can I not get away with, but what's expected. Yeah, so you know, we talk about operating principles and saying that that's something that we'll probably cover another time, or we might refer to it a little bit. But it's you know, I still I still go back to, and it it still affects you, is when you get sort of anonymous feedback from your team on a staff survey, and you're like, What? How could they be saying that? Because they weren't able to say it to your face, so you haven't created an environment where they feel able to. Now that almost might be a legacy thing as well, but you've got to know as a leader going, there's no point saying to somebody, how are you, if the only answer you're gonna get back is fine.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Yes, and I suppose that's a that's a a symptom, that's a good sign of safety not being there. So if you're sat there thinking, do I how do I know if I have it? Have I have I got it, have a not, then if you're seeing, if you're being surprised on things like those anonymous staff survey result uh questionnaires, then probably a good sign it you've got some work to do.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Yeah. And that might not always be your responsibility, that might be collective responsibility, and that's where operating principles, and I'm sure we'll talk about that another time, come in. So the rule so the team set the rules of the game up. So we all understand the rules that we're playing by, and just because you're the leader, sometimes you need to take a backseat and be part of the team, and other times you need to come to the front, and it's almost like going, you know, and this is uh Tuckman's theory of group development. In the best team, in the most high-performing teams, according to Tuckman, you don't know who the leader is because it just shifts depending on what activity you're doing. Now, that's again, that's for another pod, so you know, try not to throw too much stuff into this one. But I was going in a team where there's no surprises and people can talk to you about the things that are really bothering them without fearing judged, that's a safe team.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Yeah. And I don't think that's fluffy at all. No. If people are coming out and saying ringing you up going, listen, boss, gotta have a chat about this, my friend, because that didn't feel on.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

I don't I think people who would say, oh, psychological safety is fluffy, me and my team would just do this, they just tell me.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Well, that's a safe team. Yeah, but it's also how they tell you, not just what they do. So there's some skill in it as well. Yes. You know, somebody just having an absolute rant at you, they might feel safe, but that for me that's not a signifier of psychological safety. That's someone having a rant at you. It's something slightly different.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

The risk, the risk, I suppose, with that is if somebody has a little bit of knowledge around what around what psychological safety is, or I've heard about the phrase, and then use that as a badge or a license or a weapon to help, right? Because I've got this phrase now, which I know HR departments love, I can be a swine. I can come out and say, I can give it to people as I want to tell them. And that that's that is far from being psychologically safe.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

That's being emotionally unintelligent. Perfectly put. Perfectly put. Because what's the again, psychologically safe? The the purpose of saying something is to make things better, not just to get stuff off your chest. So it's got to have purpose to it. If I are, you know, there might be times when I've gone to my boss and just said, I need a rant. And they go, go for it. Yeah. And I have a rant. And actually, I do that because I know I'm not gonna be judged, and they know it's a rant, and I know it's a rant, and I'm getting it off my chest, and they go, Yeah, okay, cool. But you've chosen the right person at the right time in the right space to have that rant.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yes. Which is important, yes, yeah, 100%. And you feel safe enough with the boss to have a rant, but it doesn't mean that you might have the psychological safety to do to do that with the boss, but it doesn't mean that you've you automatically have the license, carte blanche, to go and have that rant with anyone anywhere. 100% because it's a safe place to be.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

100%.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Okay, interesting. So I think we had a good chat about what it is, what it isn't, the impacts, what it causes, the risks of not having it. But how what do you do to agenda it?

SPEAKER_00 17:14

How do we how do we create it? And again, it goes back to a lot of the things that Ben and I talk about. It's it's by the demonstration of the behaviours rather than the words that you use. So, you know, there's a few things that you can do. I guess one of the first things, and we're Ben and I are bound to say this one, but it being proactively seek feedback on yourself. So it's not just, you know, we talk about our two one-to-one questions. So, what do I do that really works for you? Can you give me an example? And what do I do that doesn't work for you? And can you give me an example? And typically, when you go, what do I do that doesn't work for you? People will say nothing. It's really easy to go, cool, move on. But how can you go? Come on, there must be something, I need your help, tell me, and they'll probably tell you something that's safer to tell you. Yeah, low stakes. Low stakes. Yeah, you take that on board and go, brilliant, what else? Because you're demonstrating that you really want to learn and get better. So, how does that help with the safety? Because you thank people when they give it to you and you ask them to go, thanks, that's really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

And I guess they go, Well, that wasn't as scary as well I thought it might be.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

And then you go, knowing that that thing's the first thing, you go, and what else?

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Nice, nice. And that's when they can tell you the probably the real thing that they'd like to get off the chest, right? But they feel like they've got the license to do so because you didn't blow up the first time they said that little thing to you. Yeah, totally. What about you? Okay. What's one of the things you do? Um you've talked about, you've touched on operating principles a couple of times, we've said this, and I think there really is legs in that for a set a separate podcast, so we can do that. But it's all about creating the the rules of engagement. So if you can, if you if you can explain, if you can offer the clarity and the certainty, a golden rule there again, to a team and say, here's where, here's the here's the the what's the word I'm looking for, the criterion, the ballpark, the pen, the field, the the scope that we we uh that I would suggest we play in. Here's the rule, here's the area where we don't, yeah, we don't step in this space here. People can think, oh well that's cool then. I don't I don't need to be told exactly what to do, but at least I've got the clarity and certainty where if I do stuff within this arena, that's cool, right? So I've got and and that's especially important where you're not just talking about people's tasks, but you're helping people with a bit of clarity and certainty around what's expected of them behaviourally. Because then they go, okay, well, if I do that stuff, yeah, I'm I'm cool.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

But it's the what and the how. This is how to do it. Absolutely. Yeah, no, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

And that's that takes a bit of work though. You can't just uh tell people how they should behave today, that takes a bit of crafting.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

So we'll we'll we'll talk about that on a separate pod. Yeah. I guess then there's another thing there about being able to admit your mistakes to make to show that it's safe to admit your mistakes and what you've learned. And uh a colleague of ours, Christine, has a brilliant phrase: flearning, and that's failing while learning. And how do I celebrate the fail? So actually, by demonstrating to people it's alright, and we I know we've already talked about this, that is not a sign of weakness. We talk about those three big leadership characteristics, one of them being humility. That is just not a sign of weakness, that is a sign of strength. Goes back to if you want someone to demonstrate a behaviour, go there first. Nice, yeah. You're giving them that license, right? Yeah, yeah. And then when they when they share their mistakes, celebrate it. Great learn. What to take away from that? How do we share that with the rest of the team?

SPEAKER_01 21:02

And that's the the the point I was going to come on to was it can take a bit of it can take a bit of courage for the team to to go there and um raise something that's been you know on their chest for a while or disagree with something that you're saying. So so as I think I get I I think as the lead of the team, it's your duty to encourage that debate, encourage the challenge. 100%. It's too easy to go. Any questions? No? Okay, let's move on. Yes. No, stop there. Guys, I suspect you've got questions. I'd love to hear a couple of them.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Yeah, and look, it's just my view. That doesn't, that's what we say in a lot of our podcasts, doesn't make us they make me right. What do you I want to know what you think. Folks, I need your help. Yeah. I need your help.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Yeah. What what's what am I missing here? What have I not thought about that you can help me with? Just that stuff, right? Encourage it.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Yeah. Um I guess the last big one for me would be how do we demonstrate that we value learning as much as we value task achievement? So do we put the same emphasis on learning and failing from learning as we do on task achievement? Because you know, it goes back to something that we said previously: what gets measured gets done. So if we measure and reward learning as well as as much as we measure and reward achievement, that demonstrates to people that we're not just talking the talk, we're walking the walk. I hate that phrase. I don't know, I used it, apologies. But again, there's that congruency that I'm not just saying the words, I'm demonstrating the behaviour that goes with it. And none of that is easy. There's six things there that we've just talked about. None of that stuff is easy. It feels really easy in this kind of isolated podcast world, doesn't it, to say that stuff and spout it out. But when in practice, we felt it. We felt we felt it being difficult, especially when you're asking people to be honest with you about what they really think and believe. And I know from a personal perspective, in a few of the teams that I've led, I definitely haven't got there with everybody. But it's almost how do you tilt it so that most of the team are doing that? So you can get people to open- I I I haven't when Ben and I first worked together. I don't think you were particularly honest with me, but that's taken time and a bit of trust, and how do we build up that relationship to go, you know what? That's okay. And the same with me to you. I'm like, oh, you know, there were bits of things that I, you know, wanted to say that I didn't say because I didn't want to ruin the relationship, but actually that builds the relationship, that builds that level of trust.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

So then I was just thinking as as you said that there were some things, yeah, you're right at the start. It was just I'm gonna just I'm not gonna agree to everything, but I'll go along with the flow. I won't upset the apple cart for a while. It's just it's new the relationship, it's all forming, it's the honeymoon period of the relationship, you know. But what sort of things did we do then that you think I because I've got one, I've got one. And I don't, it's not about us, right? But I just went if people are sat there going, well, what did you do then to help move that dial? So there was one thing for me that I think really helped, and it was showing genuine interest in the person. So you got to know them past, oh, you're Ben, here's your reference number of your salary, here's your email address. You knew, you get to know about the family, you get to know about their then past that, what how they want to spend their time.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

You get to know about what they value, what they believe. First golden rule of leadership, know your people, know your people, know your people, and that takes time, and it typically doesn't get measured by organizations, the output gets measured, but the input doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

One of the things that um it's fine just knowing that stuff, but there's how you use it, which is really important. So then when you can replay back to someone, I I see that would have been really difficult because I know you really value fairness, you know. I'm like, wow, you get me.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah, I do value fairness, that's my big thing. And but it takes time to build those relationships. You can't just decide right now we're gonna be psychologically safe. That just takes time. It's a it's not a management activity, it's a leadership activity. And so, you know, just as we bring that to it's just some ideas. It doesn't, you know, please, please, please have a look at the work of Amy Edmondson and the Google oxygen research because it's a fascinating read, and she's I'm sure she's done a few TED talks and she's always brilliant to listen to. But Ben and I just wanted to share our thoughts on not like Ben said, not the theory, but how do we make that into practical leadership activity? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

And if you want to know more, you can always get in touch with us. Uh, you want on the LinkedIns or on the socials, and of course, if you want to let us know of a future topic that you'd like to hear us talk more about, you can scroll down and hit text us now, and that message comes directly to us uh with a bit of an instruction to talk about this stuff. So, yeah, well, listen, that's all from us today. Thank you much for listening back. We'll speak again soon. Cheers!