EP 8: BFR Training, Foot Mechanics & Building Unbreakable Strength | Chris Duffin

In this episode, I’m joined by Chris Duffin to break down what it really means to become a “boardroom athlete” - building strength, resilience, and longevity without sacrificing performance in business or life. We dive into the science of BFR training, anabolic signaling, and how trauma - both physical and psychological - shapes adaptation and recovery. We also unpack foot health, functional strength, and the role of barefoot shoes in restoring biomechanics so you can train smarter, avoid common mistakes, and build a body that’s powerful, durable, and built for the long game.

CONNECT WITH CHRIS DUFFIN 
Website: https://enhancedexecutive.com 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mad_scientist_duffin/ 
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@MadScientistDuffin 
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Dragon-Story-Strength-Reinvention/dp/1544501927 

CONNECT WITH HOST 
Website: https://clinic5c.com/ 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chesnut.md/ 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@chesnutMD 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cameron-chesnut-a6910baa/ 

WAYS TO WATCH/LISTEN 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@5CodesPodcast 
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1FZ7vpmq21iA1noPcFhixb?si=992ef6c8d859463f 
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5-codes-podcast/id1866214238 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/5codespodcast/
 
TIMESTAMPS 
00:00 — Intro 
01:00 — The Mad Scientist of Strength 
02:13 — Journey to Peak Performance 
06:46 — Ultimate Goal 
07:47 — Were Your Thoughts Well Received? 
09:06 — How Did you Manage the Friction? 
10:25 — Blood Flow Restriction Training 
14:07 — How Often Should I Use BFR 
14:39 — Foot Biomechanics 
17:31 — Barefoot Shoes and Discomfort 
18:19 — Orthotics 
21:35 — What's the Best Kind of Barefoot Shoe? 
22:41 — Performance Enhancements
26:43 — Aging Changes After Taking Anabolics
27:51 — Six P's
31:25 — Outro

ABOUT HOST 
Dr. Cameron Chesnut is the host of the 5 Codes podcast and the founder of Clinic 5C, where he leads a team dedicated to integrative cosmetic surgery, regenerative medicine, and functional health. An internationally recognized facial plastic surgeon, Dr. Chesnut is known for producing natural, refined results that enhance rather than alter one’s appearance. His approach blends surgical precision with biological optimization and disciplined restraint, drawing patients from around the world who value excellence, longevity, and holistic care. On 5 Codes, Dr. Chesnut uncovers the mindsets and evidence-backed strategies he lives by, helping high performers perform better, recover smarter, and feel their best in every area of life. 

DISCLAIMER 
The views shared on this podcast are my own and are not associated with, affiliated with, or representative of my clinical teaching role at the University of Washington School of Medicine. This content is for general educational purposes only and should not be considered individualized medical advice.

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Five Codes Podcast, where we discuss evidence-based methods to elevate yourself to the next level through optimizing the way you look, move, perform, feel, and connect. On today's episode of the Five Codes Podcast, we sit down with Chris Duffin, the mad scientist of strength. He's a multiple-time world record holder in powerlifting and has founded, led, and sold multiple businesses related to powerlifting and his unique interest in biomechanics. He's an engineer by trade. Chris also has a very unique childhood and background. I think it's wildly beneficial for anybody to understand, especially if you're a parent. Some of the definitions that he gives, I hope that you get the subtle nuances and pearls out of that that I did. The very end, I also ask Chris a question that is very off the cuff, very unexpected for him and for me, honestly, and he gave me a very beautiful answer of his six-piece. I hope you get as much out of it as I did. Thank you for being here. The mad scientist of strength, right? That's your, I think, very affectionate nickname, which is really awesome and kind of the most cool nickname I've ever heard for anybody. Where... Why are you the mad scientist of strength in your definition? From one individual, he was a IFBB pro and then world record holding strength athlete. He's kind of known in the fitness realm, Stan Effarding. He had some back problems and some shoulder problems. I first shifted into strength as a business. I've been involved in the strength training realm for quite some time. I created this new product that was for shoulder health and Stan called me up and he's like,"Hey, I need some help." I flew down to Vegas where he was at and he's this big figure that's in media all the time, in front of the camera all the time. We get out of the car at the gym and he walks up and he's got a camera guy and he's already rolling and he's like, "And I'm here with Chris Duffin, the mad scientist of strength." He just launches into this whole spiel and it was... Very natural. It was just... And it's everybody just stuck with that name because it made sense. It's a good one. I love that. Well, so you just kind of hit on a few big questions I think I have for you. Trying to pull peak performance out of your life, like ways that you've achieved that, going from... And I'm just highlighting a few things. You're going from an engineer. I'm just going to tease people here. Engineer to a world record holder, to parlaying those things into design, business, starting and selling companies. What does that evolution look like for you? We're going to pull a lot of training things out of this too along the way, but I'm just curious from like that 30,000 foot view. How did you... What was your story and evolution through those things? I grew up in a way that really forced me to have to deal with my environment and overcome obstacles. I mean, it was... I can't over articulate just how much that was part of my life. So maybe a 90 second elevator pitch on that. But I grew up homeless in the wilderness in the northern California area, dealing with all sorts of crazy things. So, you know, six years old I was being taught how to handle live rattlesnakes because there was a den close to where we were at. And where we were at was just in... Like I said, the wilderness and our beds were in beams lashed up into the trees and there were snakes running around and I was with my brother and I had to look out for him because he was only three. So just being able to have to manage your environment and deal with things and I've learned to manage fear really early on. Being able to understand like that you've got to respect it but at the same time you can't let it overcome you. That had a big influence on me. So I felt I could overcome or figure out most anything. Failure didn't really slow me down. It made me who I am without a doubt. I wouldn't take it away for anything but when you become a parent and you start looking through the lens of being a parent and at my kids when they got to be that age, that's when I started writing my book because I was like that's when it really struck home and I couldn't ever imagine putting my kids through that type of environment and the negativity because like we get stronger. We can get stronger from anything that comes at us. That's adaptation. But there's a certain point of like you get kicked down too far and that's called trauma and it's yeah you can get stronger and come out of that but did you need to go that far and have that much pain and hurt to know you don't. And that's a lot of what I teach and that's what I try to do is go how can we minimize that effect. We need to have the challenge. We need to be able to step into this new scary thing but it doesn't mean falling off a cliff to do it. It doesn't mean having to experience every single type of trauma which I did. Prior to athletics and strength training, I was incredibly shy. When I went down that route it developed a lot of self confidence and really transformed who I was. I wanted to be the best. Yes, okay. It's a value of yours right? It is. It is. I'm very competitive. And I could dress it up as something bigger than it is but you know in reflection it's growing up as somebody that was looked down on or thought themselves worthless and I needed to best everybody. I needed to best everybody. An objective way to. Refuse. I needed to best them at business. I needed to best them in academics. I needed to best them in athletics. So it came from a very insecure place. You know that's something I can realize approaching 50 now. That's why I had to do those things. I think a lot of people will resonate with that too because a lot of people watching this are very high performers in their field. They are very competitive which serves you well at some points in life, school sports but then it's in our world of professional life. How do you use that still? You know and where did it come from in the first place and takes a lot of sitting with yourself to get to where you're at basically. It's done a lot of people may never do it but I believe there's value in that and understanding why it happens and as a parent that's where I feel the most now is how do I pick the good things out of that to pass on and I would resonate with what you're saying very strongly too. How do I pick the good things out and understand what may be maladaptive for them. Yeah. Yeah. So in the early 2000s I started getting into how do I create the best environment for myself to be the best strength athlete in the world. That was my goal. Not only because it was so far out there. Environment how? I needed to have the right tools. I needed to have the right methods and I needed to have the right environment for people around me. Alright. So I built it. Okay. I went out to my garage and welded up a bunch of equipment and I started a gym and I brought in like-minded people that had the same thing and I started researching supplements and everything else. And as I was doing that I saw so many gaps now in the training world. So this is early 2000s and I'm like this is just crazy what is out there and what people are thinking is how they're supposed to train. And so I started just filming in my gym like with my old potato phone back then. Hey, I'd pull it together and I'd talk about a concept and I'd throw it up on YouTube. When you were doing this on YouTube flashing back one frame shift of time with your potato phone and being maybe a little bit out there dynamic ahead of the curve maybe to say was that well received? Yeah, there was a certain sect of- I had a following by this point in time. People believed in what I put out and what I did. But most of the industry laughed at me. Yeah, okay. Like it was- everything was wrong. Because I- like let's talk to back. Like the methodology at the time to squat big was to arch big and push your belly out and shoot your hips back and- some- essentially stuff that's going to destroy your back and hips. Yeah. Now most of those people have all had hip replacements and I've worked with a lot of my back and so on since then. But it was a shift when I started talking about foot health and not wearing shoes and the shoes you're wearing being wrong but at the end of the day I had a tremendous influence. Like right now if you walk into a lot of gyms you'll see people strengthening in minimal shoes or barefoot. I had a huge impact and I know that because the people that did start following me, the ones that were following me were the professionals. So I hear this idea of even a little bit of friction at the beginning. And my brain those two places with that when I- you was like you talked about an insecurity on one end but you also talked about this incredible ability to manage fear. How do those play into taking- I'm asking this person a little bit too but ideas that not everybody agrees with but that are relatively cutting edge that are going to be very influential and have a big impact. How do you balance all those things? How did you balance all those things? That's a good question. I think there's a certain bit of a naivete in there as well. But I think a lot of those insecurities at that lower level were fairly- I would say resolved to some level. I wasn't still with a lot of confidence growing up in the environment that I did because I had to overcome a lot and I always knew that I could just figure it out if I kept at it. And I failed and I come around and fail again and I'm only playing with that. Yeah, I developed a tremendous amount of grit in the course of that and when I knew something worked I would go after it. So yeah, there was friction but I also walked the walk and that made a big difference. Blood flow restriction training. This is something my audience will be familiar with because we talked about this. I like to use it before surgery. As a way to leverage some of those benefits you just talked about let's call it increasing growth factor signaling without overfitting my central nervous system so that I could go into surgery as though with all the good parts of having just done a hard workout but not actually having done it from a central nervous system fatigue standpoint. With that in mind, walk me through how that's working, what's happening there? Is there studies on this with older individuals, with people who are training, is there validity to what I'm doing? Absolutely. Many modalities, so one, I ended up working with a number of people that were involved with the BFR research. I'm clinically trained in BFR application. You can use it to enhance the metabolic side of it. You can use it to enhance the growth factor side of it. You can use it to enhance the recovery. You can use it to stimulate your adaptability to adapt to the next exercise better to oversimplify. Put you into a deeper state of fatigue center without the excess of load on the joints. I would use it to enhance what I call tissue quality. When I was squatting really heavy, I was only able to sustain this intense training performance maybe once a week. I wasn't training very frequently. I spent years prepping for this and then nine months of tailoring back all the other load to where I would just squat incredibly heavy once a week. That's all I could sustain. Rest of the week was designated on recovery. But the day before, I would put some BFR bands on because unfortunately if I'm not training all week, I don't have a lot of glucose in my muscles. They're flat. You want to do a whole body workout and kind of fill that out. That's going to, one, mechanically improve. It's going to reduce my injury risk. It's going to increase the amount of training that I can do. But if I do that, it's going to fatigue me. I would put some BFR bands on and I would do about a tenth of my max for sets of 20. And then I'd rest for two to three minutes. It's like you do the same thing again. And that would be, I would do that the day before and that would just fill me out. Send the signal, like as in synthase goes up and pump into that. Exactly. There was a lot of different, I love BFR. There's a lot of different applications for it. The best is just being able to have a, do a strength training program and have a metabolic effect from it. So thinking about high performers, you don't have two to three hours to spend in the gym. Like I could put on BFR cuffs, just make it super simple. And do a giant set. Put four exercises together and just do one to the next to the next. Repeat that whole thing three times. Boom. That's 15 minutes. I had the BFR bands on. Loosen them up. Retighten them. Two minutes later, do the whole thing again. I've got a 25 minute workout and I just feel amazing and I've had metabolic workout and a strength training workout sending both signals. Yeah. Usually time efficient. Haven't taken the, you know, that joint load on the body. So just there's a practical take away. Super easy to do. Super easy to do. And this is what I feel pre surgically when I do it too. I feel that great feeling of a workout without the normal like, okay, I'm gassed. Now. And then I feel like I'm doing it the same way. So I think that's really actionable for your boardroom athletes. The boardroom athletes. The boardroom athletes. Yeah. The boardroom athletes. Elite surgeons. Yeah. There's a mechanism to get BFR and play with it. How often would you have your clients that you're sort of coaching use it? A lot of the research focused on like two week blocks of doing like all BFR and then not doing BFR for two weeks. But I find two or three times a week, you can run fairly long term. I've done that for six months a year with no negative effects and it's continued to work. So there's a lot of flexibility I think. I love that. Just don't we could get really deep in the weeds with it trying to give some really easy protocols. That's good. I love that. Foot biomechanics. Yeah. A special interest of yours. I'm talking about being barefoot through a company that you have as well. Talk me through. Again, I'm a boardroom athlete. I'm an elite surgeon, whatever it is. Tell me about being barefoot. Barefoot shoes. Do they really work? What should we look for? How do you navigate that space? Oh, yes. Thank you. So number one priority is like the breathing, embracing and spinal mechanics. Number two is the foot and ankle complex. The foot is part of your body. It acts like every other part of your body. If you don't use it, you lose it. It's that simple. So if you're using your foot, if I wake up every morning and I put a wrap on my elbow because it hurts. Northotic. I might need to do that because it's sore. But if I do that over and over like non-stop, this arm is going to get weak. It's basic concept. Specific adaptation to imposed demand. The number one concept in training to understand, yet people would argue with me saying, the foot special. It's different than the rest of the body. Got to have shoes. Got to have orthotics. This is the way to go. And if we're building passive support in there and the foot isn't doing the work itself, it's getting weak just like that strap on my elbow, that support. Shoes design as a whole is a massive issue with this. So when the running shoe craze took off back in the 60s with the book, born to run, they had to figure out what to do with the shoes because people were wearing dress shoes which hadn't elevated heel. And if people start running with a short and gas drop, they're going to tear. And so they consulted Nike and orthopedist. And the recommendation was to put a heel in there. The running shoe is build upon build upon build of band-aids and it's destroying how your body is supposed to operate. I could take my shoes off and you'll see, I've got jacked feet. There's a lot of muscles in that, right? Because I built that. When I did my 1000 pound squat and my 1000 pound deadlift, I did it without shoes. This is my question. It's the time people were like, oh my god, he did it and he did it without shoes. Did you know where lifting shoes? I did earlier in my career. Shoes have a reason. Disease, protection from the environment. We live in very hostile places that have hot pavement and asphalt and you got bathrooms and you got like, I'm not suggesting that at all. But maybe we want to spend some time touching the ground, moving on on the even surfaces and using your foot. Just spend some time using it. That's all I'm saying. Now when you first start doing it, it's going to hurt. It's common feedback I hear from people when I encourage them. As I'm sitting here barefoot, we talked about this earlier. I made the switch years ago to be exclusively and minimalist barefoot types of shoes. But that's the most common thing I hear from people is my feet hurt, my tibial center, my shin hurts, my, it's uncomfortable to walk and stand in. You know, start with 20% of your time in a minimalist shoe. Do that for a few weeks. Feels good? Do longer. If it's too much, do less. What would happen if I walked into the gym with never training before and go, you know what, I'm going to do 225 for a sets 20 day. You're going to break and you're going to hurt yourself. Or squats bad. Basic common sense. Basic common sense. Just treat the foot like every other part of your body. I wonder this because I have these analogous things in my world where when you said orthotics, it peaked me a little bit to be like, well, how did... Made analysis on... Made analysis. We can talk about it. Which question becomes, these things exist in my world too, where it's clearly become that's probably not best, but was ubiquitous? They were sold or it is sold everywhere and some people just refuse to change their mind, even though we know it's not the best option anymore. Science may argue otherwise. It hasn't maybe caught all the way up yet. Is that how orthotics or was it based off a business model? Is that how it got so prevalent? Where did things go wrong? And then did people just immediately adapt and change or do people hold out? Are they still hold out? What does that look like? Go into dietary school and see what's being taught and see who's teaching it. Orthotics. Manufactures. Okay. So there's industry driving this. There's industry driving it. And so it's in the education system. Go look at the made analysis on the value of orthotics. Guess what? They work. They provide relief for a six, eight week period of time and then they do nothing beyond that. Maybe hurt. Maybe definitely hurt. Definitely hurt because specific adaptation to imposed demand is not happening. It's getting weaker. It's that simple. I don't have to argue the point. I break my arm. I put a cast on the process of atrophy habits. If it's not adding any value beyond that point and it's reducing and restricting and not allowing it to work, it's doing damage. Now there's lots of research around this. Yeah. I'm just going to ask for things in my industry that have very short data looking to a certain point. It meets its clinical end points for this thing. People believe a certain thing about it. It's driven by industry. The industry is teaching the providers. The providers are passing it on. This is filler. I'm talking about filler in my world. And people refuse to sort of look past the initial towards the long term, which it sounds like as orthotics. So it look at six, eight weeks. It's incredibly better that they just ignore the long term. But the made-us house show is no additional benefit beyond that. And people just choose to ignore it or it took a while or what happened. There's no argument because there's no studies. I just resonate with this. I shouldn't have to. But you have to understand some of the people that look at research. It's like everything has to be a study. And if that wasn't studied and it's like, yeah, it doesn't need to be because you understand the concept that like this is how it, the body works. And this is what's happening. This is how it works. Like, yeah, that resonates. That hits with me a big time. So that's how I approach that was trying to use analogies. Like, yeah, this is no different than your arm. Like it's no different than anything else. Tell me how that is. And yeah, you'll have people that just disagree with you. Yeah, for sure. For sure. You talked about owning your own gym, training barefoot. I train barefoot often. My feet take a beating sometimes, especially on certain surfaces like the rubber mats of a CrossFit gym. I agree with my feet, which could be irritant allergic to nuts, whatever it may be. But if people can train barefoot, should they? I love that insane and grass in particular, you know, for the grounding effects you. But then what about in gym settings? Like, what is somebody's best option? What makes a good barefoot shoe? What should they look for? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Love that question. So, yeah, well, you want something that moves freely. You want to be able to pull the ins aloud, put your foot on the top of it, and make sure that your toes are not spaying over the top. Pass the sides of the ins. What? Yeah, okay. Right. So, we need to have a toe box that has that. You don't want cushion in there. Now, that said, we want a great connection to the ground. So, you want something that's got a low deorometer. So, stick it to the ground, you twist it and it wants to stick. So, one foot fits, twists. It's got to be something that you can aesthetically wear. Yeah. Yeah. Let's be honest. Yeah. It's got to be okay with you, you know? What about training barefoot? Think of a shoe as a tool. You want the most minimal amount of support and still get the job done that you can. So, if you can go barefoot, that's fantastic. If you can't, get the least restrictive thing that's closest to that. Try not to over-conflicate it. Okay. Love that. Love that. Okay. One topic that I want to pick your brain on. First one, I think, big one here, which we kind of talked about before was performance enhancements. Performance enhancing whether those are anabolic, whether those get into peptides, whatever those may be, which is all a spectrum of things, right? Yep. Growth hormone versus growth hormone analogues, acroedologues, growling mimickers. You said something to me that really resonated earlier when you set two world records. Yep. Right? This is squatting a thousand and one pounds for the correct me if I'm wrong. A thousand one pounds for three reps, deadlifting, a thousand and two pounds for three reps, both of those things together, which is remarkable because usually people have one or the other, right? Yep. You were showing that your mad scientist was effective, basically, right? But you said, I could never do that without performance enhancements with anabolic at that point. Yep. And that just immediately peaked me to interesting. Where does that mindset come from? And I think I'm asking, would you do that again? How did you frame that up in your brain? What has that meant for you long term now that you're a dad and like, how does all that, how do you work with all those things? Yeah. So I started my anabolic journey very late when I was 33. I had very low testosterone at that point, but I wanted to set all the records in the tested categories, which I did. And I was an 800 pound deadlifter at 198 pound body weight. Before any performance enhancements. Yes. Before any performance enhancements. And my doctor had been pushing me to go on TRT and I said, oh, I'm going to wait till I'm 33, which is when you go into the submaster class and strength sports. Okay. No longer in the open class or in the submaster. I'm like, I'll go submaster use TRT. I'm like, well, if I'm going to use TRT, I may as well use TRT plus because I'm competing against. Because like competing against people that were using anabolic, like that was my competition anyway. At baseline before. At baseline because that was the level I was at. Okay. Then I started peptides at 33 and I used those up into my early 40s. I stopped in in 2020, which would have been 43. This is the anabolic. Yeah. So 10 years. I used anabolic. Then it came down to dealing with the issues that related to that. I used excessive antigens for a long time. I was essentially prediabetic over that period of time. Yeah. Some of my blood markers did start drifting where they shouldn't be. I didn't feel great. I was bloated. I didn't want to walk up flights of stairs. It was 280 pounds. And yeah, it was unwinding. Unwinding that was the process that I've been on the last five years, which is interesting because that's now what I hope a lot of people do is enhance performance in the health realm. Majority of what I work with is I call boardroom athletes, but high performers. And then I've got a small subset of people that work in certain industries that are various static based public facing action movie stars, things of that nature, where they've used the anabolic for their career. And I'm working on getting a lot of those people off the same thing. So I've been used to what I've learned in that. And so a lot of my protocols are enhancing performance because with the boardroom athlete, I talk this not just unwinding health, it's maximizing mental clarity, energy, how that then rolls into your emotional stability, right? Like all this, this are all feed quite a bit. Like when you when you're drained like that, you lose your emotional resilience. You're like true. It's yeah, it hits you. You got a challenging business deal or something to walk, you know, like you need to be at your best for sure. That's why I call it the boardroom athlete because it really is. If you work like I have that experience of working that life, I know what it's like. And it's a lot of stress. In your combination of the boardroom athlete who's stressed and revved up and sympathetic tone autonomically. And your action movie star who you are unwinding as you're saying off of their anabolic do you, is it a discussion? Do you notice these aging premature aging changes in their faces? Is this these discussion points? I wouldn't say that it's a, you know, a cornerstone of any conversation. Sure. But that early aging process, you know, is going to come be combined with a lot of other health markers. Sure. Go on my social media channel and scroll through some of the comments over the last few years. And you'll see constantly people like Chris, what are you doing to age backwards? Yeah. And I put a lot of stress on my body. And it's crazy because I've documented the last 20 years online and you could see so much change in me over this period of time and people see that. And comment, it's like that visible. Interesting. Well, it's very thorough, very deep there. Thank you for that. Deep dive into it. And those are very personally fascinating to me too. And I think I feel like we've been through a very thorough from biomechanics to business through, you know, honestly, I really love the beginning when we were talking about, you know, self confidence and fear, tolerance and managing that. Is there any other, like kind of like key takeaways that you would just like, if you could just give one piece of advice to someone seeking peak performance with your unique knowledge? Yeah. What's the, what's your one pearl that you feel like you're the best thing to deliver? Do you have that? We talked about the body. We didn't talk about the mind. Yeah. The six p's is the way I frame this. Think about a square root. Your life is mapped over this. It's the action book story of life. It's the story arc of a movie or book that you read. All right. Press a piss, the plunge, you've got the pit, you've got the pole, then you have the peak where you're going. You've got the plateau. You can't forget about taking the time for reflection, the self care. You can't keep burning the camel all the time. So the precipice, the important thing with the precipice is recognizing when you are there. That is the key. Being able to learn the signals, that mixture of fear and excitement that are brewing in that gut, the things that tell you to take that step and the things that tell you not to, that's your moment. Tells you that there's an opportunity for you to learn and go stronger and to take that step. And you're about to plunge. Then you're about to plunge. The plunge is about introspection. It's about turning inward and taking and meditating into the fears, meditating into the shame that whatever it is that's bought, that depressed, whatever it is when you're in that uncertainty of, oh my God, what have I done? Where am I going? What's going to come out of it? You're in a free fall. You haven't hit bottom yet. All right. Turn into those emotions at that. Then you're at the pit. You want to shorten the time. You want to create the least amount of depth there. It is very narrow and it is. Yeah. And you're an allergy. It can be. It can be really long. Yeah. First step when you're in that pit, acknowledge. Take a moment, go, oh, oh, I'm in one of these moments in life. I'm in the pit. That's, it's not going to be like this forever. This is just a point in life. This is not life. It could be incredibly powerful. Taking that step back, that third person look and go, I acknowledge. Then step two is celebrate. This is what life's made of and you need to celebrate the fact that I'm going to get on the other side of this and I'm going to be so fucking proud of what I've done and what I've worked through to me there. Celebrate in the last one. Now leverage that as you're going out of that. Build those skills because what we're going to be through more of these. And the peak, like I said, that's your vision. That's the, that's the gain. It needs to be bigger than the pain. This is how you lead organizations. This is how you lead people and if you lead people through this cycle and they come out the other side and they accomplish more than what they thought they could accomplish themselves, you're going to transform them. It's really cool. That's part of my educational philosophy on that I walk my clients through. Yeah, thank you for sharing that on resilience. I'll teach a course on that at UC Berkeley. You do. That's very pertinent information. As you're sitting in this, I'm like, it's like hitting some art. I'm like, oh, I could think of a million times in my life. I'm going through things like that and definitely immediately too right now. So that's really helpful. Awesome. Well, thank you very much for spending time and walking through all of those. It's a lot to digest there. So it's cool that we can go as deep as we want in this and there's no bottom to it. So I appreciate you very much. If you have any questions or topics you would like me to explore further, please leave them in the comments. I read them all and they often help shape the future conversations here. If you would like to learn more about my surgical practice, you can visit clinic5c.com where you will find additional information on my approach to surgery, recovery, and performance focus care. I also want to be clear that the views shared on this podcast are my own and are not associated with or representative of my clinical teaching affiliation with the University of Washington School of Medicine. Nor should this be taken as individual medical advice. Thank you for spending your time with me. I appreciate you being here and I will see you on the next episode.