EP#08- The Church and Gay People (feat. Fr James Martin SJ)

In this episode of the Catholic Influencers Podcast Fr. Rob Galea and Danii discuss the LGBTQI+ community in the Catholic Church.

Fr. Rob interviews Fr. James Martin, SJ , a Jesuit priest, editor at large of America magazine, and bestselling author, about how the Catholic Church can dialogue with and make the LGBTQI+ community feel welcomed and know they belong in the Catholic Church. 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

[inaudible].

Speaker 2: 0:07

Hey everybody, welcome to the Catholic influencers podcast, a conversation to help Catholic influencers like you and me to go deeper and further in influencing our world for Jesus

Speaker 1: 0:23

[inaudible].

Speaker 2: 0:23

I'm your host, father Rob Galea and I'm your Co-Host Danny Sullivan. And we look forward today to talking to you about the church and gay people.

Speaker 1: 0:36

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 0:39

Danny, how was your weekend?

: 0:40

It was the best. I had a girl's weekend in Melbourne with some of my best friends because of one of them is about to move over to mission in Uganda. So we just hung out and ate ice cream and watch a lots of chick flicks. It was the best. I can't imagine anythhing worse. Your weekend was probably very similar. No, my weekend, except I didn't watch chick flicks. I did watch a national geographic program after, um, yesterday I had a cheat night where I ate a pizza. I never eat pizza or I never, I try not to eat pizza. Your life sounds so sad. Well, I've tried to watch my diet, but I had a weekend in the parish. We're moving offices as well. And so I've been carrying boxes all weekend as well. Um, but I look for, I love being in the parish, so I very rarely get to do it.

Speaker 2: 1:23

Um, so today we're gonna talk about a, um, sort of quite a controversial thing, maybe not so much controversial, but a much needed topic in the church where we talk about the church and gay people. You see, we titled this the Church and Gay people, but I want to start off, first of all, by disagreeing with that title and you see, because it's not about them and us the church, US and the gay people them. But the church is the people of God. And that includes all people. You know, it includes men and women, black, white center, St Straight, gay people. We are all part of the Church and the church is incomplete if we're not in it.

: 2:04

I think we had a really similar discussion last week, father Rob where you had sent me the notes for the podcast about women and the church and it was titled Women and the Church. And I was like, well I don't think we should call it that because it's not separate. It's all the same. And then eventually you got onto my side. So thanks for that. So then when I saw your email this week, I was like, he started again. So last week. We titled It women in the Church, not and the church, cause the church is incomplete without everyone. That's why I like it was a big debate. And then I saw your notes this week. I was like, oh my gosh, like not again. That's an old song, do you remember that Brittany Spears? But anyway, so we all look, we all have friends and family members who are gay or bisexual and I too have a lot of people I love, um, who are gay and just want to make it clear that it is, that it is not a sin to be attracted to, to the people of the same sex. And so sometimes first, let's start off by understanding that God loves us. God welcomes us no matter what our sexual orientation is. And the church loves and welcomes you and is, as I said, is incomplete without you. And we as a church, I believe, I believe that we need to make an apology. And even Pope Francis himself said, we need to make an apology for the times we have. We have rejected and did not, did not defend you. You see, we as a church have the responsibility to reach out, to defend, to protect all people and lead them to Jesus.

Speaker 3: 3:36

I completely agree with that father Rob, and for some reason there is this, I don't know, maybe like a bit of a perception within the church that some sins are unforgivable. Um, and particularly I find like sexual sins are more unforgivable than others. Um, obviously that's not true and you know, the church is so quick to show mercy to someone who is coming back and wants to be embraced by God's love, but we're less quick to show that exact same type of mercy to a gay person struggling with sexual sin. This needs to change. We need to embrace everyone because the church is incomplete without all of its members. And as members, we are all equally striving for holiness. We're all equally embracing that mercy to become saints

Speaker 2: 4:16

and yeah, and part of that is because the church really doesn't know how to do dialogue, doesn't know how to dialogue with people with same sex attraction. And I think that's one thing that we really, really need to learn. I just want to start off with this and look at it to understand that when God looks at you and me, when he looks at us, he acknowledges all that we are. We are not defined as human beings by our thoughts. We're not defined by our attractions, but we are defined by the very fact that we are the children of God. And God knows every thought. He knows every feeling and he considers he cares about the fact that we are attracted to this person or that person, that we're, we have these desires and those desires. In fact, it's in the book of Psalms. Maybe then you can read for us someone three nine and which verses are those?

Speaker 3: 5:13

Oh one to six, so one three nine one two six oh lord, you have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up, you just turned my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down. You are acquainted with all my ways, even before a word is on my tongue. Oh Lord. You know it completely. You hear me in behind them before and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is so high that I cannot attain it.

Speaker 2: 5:39

That's amazing. You see, and that shows in the scripture that God knows every thought. He knows every word, but it doesn't define us by our thoughts. Okay? And nor should the church define anyone by their thoughts or even by the things they do. At the end of the day, the church is there to bring to holiness, to bring us to Jesus, but it God defines us by the fact that we are his beloved with with a great call, with a great vocation over our lives. And this great vocation is for each of us to live according to his plan and to his purpose, to turn away, to turn away from sin, and to believe in the Gospel, the kerygmatic message, and to work ultimately in relationship with him. And that God does not discriminate by our thoughts, even our sinfulness. Even though he calls us like we had in the gospel this Sunday, he stood by this adulterous woman. He stood by there by her that while everyone condemned her, he loved her and he called her to holiness. He called her then to relationship with her.

: 6:44

And he reminds you me like probably something I read on Instagram, I don't know. Where it's like Jesus loves you so much that however you are like, come to Jesus, but he loves you too much for you to stay that way and you know even in the Gospel, you know, turn away from sin, you know, never sin again. And that's all he wants. Like he just wants, he loves us so much that he wants us to come to him, but he loves us too much to let us leave in that sin no matter what it is. Exactly and that, and again, and to go back to our, one of our first points is that the sin is not that they you are attracted or a person is attracted to someone else, but each and everyone, whether you're you're gay or you're straight, we're all called to purity. We're all called to holiness. We're all called to love Jesus with all of our heart, with all of our mind. But the problem is sometimes that we tend to be less merciful, less merciful towards the gay community because we often don't know how to open the door and the reality is that we all fail, but the church, that's what the purpose of the church is as well, is to get bring us back to each time we fall. I love the analogy of the bride you see the St Paul Talks about that the church is the bride and that Jesus is the groom and the bride is walking up the aisle. But somehow because of and that is the analogy of sinfulness is that as we're looking at our groom, sometimes we get distracted. I did a wedding last this weekend actually. That's one of the things I did this weekend. This bride didn't do that, but just imagine a bride walking up the aisle and just flirting with the people you know on the side as they're going and they're getting distracted and they forget sometimes that the groom is right there in front of them, but this is our call to remember. The church is there to remind us, hey guys, stay focused. Remember that this, this is about the groom. I had never heard that analogy before. I really like that, but I'm a little bit concerned that a national geographic documentary, you remember that one when I asked you how your weekend was and not the wedding. Yes. Well, that's what something I did to relax even though, yeah, as I said. Yeah, I love that analogy though, like just you know, in like that church kind of been the aisle I guess, like it keeps you on that path so that you can reach the groom. Exactly. And so this is our call to remain focused to keep our eyes on Jesus. And so each, as I said, each and every one of us are called to purity. We're all sinners. But if the church closes its doors to the gay community, what chance or what chance do they have to, to remain focused on the groom? You know, that there's no way. And so this is the thing that we as a church need to learn to open our doors. Um, and I must admit that too though, that we are at a loss when it comes to opening our doors and dialoguing with the LGBTQ community. We just don't, we just don't know how to do that. Yeah. And I think as a church we need to figure out how to do this. Like how to love them and how to walk with them. You know, as humans, as they are just seeing their heart, not seeing them for who they're attracted to, but working out how to walk with them towards holiness and help them recognize that we are all authentically called to love and serve Jesus. And we need to help carry them to Jesus. Especially if they don't feel welcome. We need to make them feel welcome, but we need to work at as a church how to do this. Exactly. And I just, I hadn't, the thought that comes to my mind is the pain. Can you imagine? I don't know. But can you imagine the pain that people who are gay and feel rejected by the church they love? And this is so horrible. I, it just pains me and I see so many. I meet so many people who are broken, who are hurt, who even though we say they are welcome and we open our parishes, but we don't know how to pass to them, we don't know how to nurture them. Especially, where I see I've been to certain parishes in the United States in particular where they have an amazing ministry reaching out to, to the gay community. But I think that's in many parishes and many churches have a lot to learn when it comes to that. In fact, when I was in L.A., I got to have a conversation with a priest who spends a lot of his life trying to listen and trying to learn from people with same sex attraction. So we sat down, myself and father James Martin to talk about ways in which us as, as the church can reach out to the gay community

Speaker 1: 11:12

So I'm here in California at this beautiful conference. So we have, I think about 35,000 people and some incredible speakers from all around the world. And that person sitting next to me right here right now is father James Martin. Father James Martin is in New York best seller also has written some incredible books and controversial books too. Is sitting here with me also one of the speakers that here, here in La Congress. So it's so wonderful and such a privilege to have you here father James. Thanks Rob. Good to be with you.

: 11:48

So I thought we will have a little bit of a conversation about involving people involving, particularly the gay community involving people who are sometimes left out and considered hated. Not we consider them hated, but they as a community, as individuals are considered outcasts within the church. And so I'll start with a scripture verse. I think it's act one, verse eight, and it says that you will be my witnesses to the ends of the earth, but which doesn't necessarily mean geographical ends of the earth, but also reaching to the outcasts, reading to people that need to hear the gospel. So how do you feel as a church we have, in the 21st century achieve this goal to reach the ends of the air? Well, I think that's a good way of looking at it. Um, you know, Pope Francis, who's a Jesuit like myself has asked Jesuits to go to the periphery, to the margins. And that really is to the ends of the earth as you say, where people feel excluded. And when it comes to the LGBT community, that's lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, the church so far has not done a great job. It's getting better though. Uh, I think as more and more people are open about their sexual identity and it, you know, influences families and fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters, uh, those concerns are getting brought into parishes and schools and communities. And so I think the church is being invited to listen to these people and I think the church is actually doing a better job these days even than it did 10 years ago.

Speaker 4: 13:17

How do you feel like a like to start from the perspective of a gay has. And so they have these sexual tendencies and they feel maybe they are actually practicing their faith, but they start to feel, even this week I had someone come up to me and say, listen, I'm very involved in my parish and I am, but I'm realizing that I'm gay and I don't want to tell anyone I'm afraid to speak out. The thing is if they actually do tell someone the church doesn't know how to respond. So how do we open our doors? How do we open our hearts? How do we make people like this able to be true to themselves, but also keep them involved in, in parish life, in their home remain the Catholic Church?

: 14:05

Well, I think that's a really good question. And the way we do it as the way that Jesus did it with people on the margins. And when we're looking in the gospels, we see over and over again, Jesus going out to someone like the Roman Centurion, the woman at the well, lepers, people who are sick, people who are really considered on the margins. So, and who are themselves felt excluded and reached out to them. And how did he do it? Uh, with love, uh, by encountering them, by listening to them and by letting them tell their stories. And so the first thing we have to do is listen to the experience of LGBT people. And the second thing we need to do is remind them that God loves them. They don't hear that a whole lot in the church and remind them that the church is their home. As you were saying. Um, you know, I met a young gay man a couple of months ago and he said that one of the most helpful things that anyone has said to him came from, uh, older priest who we know and he repeated it. And I use it with a lot of LGBT people, which is that God loves you and your church is learning to love you. And I think that's where we are right now. That's very honest. And, and the third thing is to remind people that this is their home. You know, that I often say in talks or one-on-one that, um, you know, you are a baptized Catholic and you are as much a part of the church as Pope Francis, your local bishop, your pastor or anybody else. And so that this is your home and you should feel at home. Uh, you know, here even though some people may want to sort of exclude you. Yeah. And let's talk about, for example, um, first of all I would say that one of the misconceptions we have is that's when someone realizes that they are gay does not mean that they're sinning. It does not mean that they, they're out. And it doesn't mean that they're an outcast and that they are still loved by the church. And one thing I did hear is that the church is incomplete without the gay community. I'm not sure if you actually wrote that in your book... Yeah, I think I did. You know that the body of Christ is really being torn apart, right? I mean, you know, at the Eucharist we, we crack and we split open and we break the body of Christ, you know, of it's bread broken and given out. But to tear apart the body of Christ and that way and to exclude people is to really make the body of Christ incomplete. And you know, simply in a kind of, um, canonical sense, these people are baptized and they have as much right to be in the church as anybody else. Now a lot of people say, oh, well they're acting against the church. Well, you know, we have a lot of people in the church that don't conform to certain church teachings and we don't, you know, label them as sinners and cast them out. And, and it's the, the reason is that we understand these people in their complexity. So for example, divorce people or people use birth control or people use in vitro fertilization, you know, all these sorts of topics that people struggle with and these people are not cast out into outer darkness. It's the LGBT person who I think is really excluded and kind of targeted, unfortunately. But also, for example, when someone is divorced, we don't cast them out. But, maybe there's that quiet hope and assumption that they're living a holy life, so to speak, but also people who are gay. And how do we bring reconciles sort of encourage celibacy innocence. I know this is a difficult question because especially, but if they are involved and they want to live and are ready to live a celibate life, how do we encourage them to do that? And how, how does that work? I wouldn't even know how to begin a conversation like this... But yeah, I mean I think you would, given that your celibate and I'm chased, I take a vow of chastity. I think the, you know, the invitation is for all of us to live a chase life. And for those, you know, LGBT people who are conforming to church teaching, it's talking to them about having friendships that are really and meaningful. Uh, you know, trying to be generous with their community. And the same kinds of things that would happen in, uh, in the priest or in religious life. I think though more fundamentally though, because usually that's all they have sort of, you know, said to them, it's, it's usually chastity, chastity, chastity, which is important, but you know, over and beyond that there are things that have very little to do with their sexual lives. So you know, that, that God loves you, that you're, that you're part of the church, that, that Jesus is your savior, that the gospels are open to you, you know, the sort of riches of prayer and the sacraments. And I think unfortunately with, LGBT people, the church is focused so much on sex that it almost excludes everything else. I mean, I always say to people, imagine, you know, having a conference on married life and only talking about sex, you know, without all the other things that happen in a marriage life, you know, with, uh, you know, finances and friendship and owning houses and those kinds of things. And yet with the LGBT person, we tend to focus so much on sex that I think they feel that their whole lives are about their sexuality. So it's not only the Chassidy, but it's kind of a sort of broadening their understanding of church teaching to encompass their whole lives. And this is also I like, I love the title of your book, building a bridge because when we build a bridge, you can't build it from one side to the other. You have to build on both sides. And so it's one the church learning to communicate with the gay community, but it's also the gay community building a bridge on their side. But it needs, as you said, to start with conversation. Now, if we go down to a micro level, for example, a Catholic school or a single parish, I am a an associate pastor. I'm a pastor in a, in a parish. How can I begin this conversation? That's a great question. I think by listening, I think by talking to the kids who are gay or lesbian and your school and asking them, you know, what's it like being a gay boy? You know, what's it like being a girl attracted to other girls? I mean, here's a real leading edge question. You know, what's it like being a transgender person, you know, transgender adolescent, you know, which is very difficult and very conflicted even for the parents. You know, what's your experience of God? Like what is the church been like for you? Who is Jesus for you and what do you need? You know, cause I think a lot of times the church almost, you know, in a good way, it tries to almost impose, I think unintentionally, it's understanding of what these, these kids need when really what they need is to be listened to and to have their experiences. I think sort of valued and reverenced and you know, a lot of these kids, um, they will have never heard the term gay or lesbian in any sort of positive way, you know, or even in any sort of neutral way. And so to say to these kids, you're welcome, I think is a big step forward. So I think it takes a lot of guts. It takes a lot of courage for a school and it takes a lot of courage for a parish to step out and to listen and after we listen and then we need to embrace, but at same time also lead these people, young and old to holiness, lead them to Jesus. And I know this is a general question because there's no answer to this, but how can we as step two lead, maybe there is that conversation from there. Lead them to holiness, lead them to Jesus, lead them to the fullness of Christ. Well, you know, I would say the same way you would do it with a straight kid. And that would be introducing them to Jesus, introduce them to the gospels, introduce them to the sacraments, inviting them to be a part of the community, inviting them to work with the poor and find Jesus there. So I guess that's what I meant before about the, the tendency to focus on sexuality. You know, for a 13 or 14 or 15 or 16 year old kid, you know, who's coming out or who's gay. The most important thing we have to introduce them to, is Jesus. Right? I mean that, that, that, that supersedes everything. And the same way we would do it with straight kids. And so really on that level, when you go to the margins, you find that people are really the same as they are at the center, which is they want to encounter the living God. And that's what the church fundamentally does and really needs to do with these kids, especially because they feel often that they don't deserve it, that they're hated and they're excluded and God doesn't love them. And so that's the message we have to bring to them, that God loves them. Absolutely. And even like people, I encounter on people somehow we tend to define them are gay. And like, you don't define person a person by being straight or even divorced or being anything. And uh, but at the same time, loving them as human beings, helping them, um, see your love for Jesus and as a response they fall in love with Jesus. So Father James Martin, we thank you so much for being part of this podcast. We thank you so much for, your passion to reach out to an outcast community. I know this comes with a lot of opposition and I know this comes with a lot of difficulty, but the listeners and myself, we'll be praying for you on your journey, um, and uh, giving and praying that God will continue to use you to impact the lives of so many people. So thank you so much for being here. You're welcome. Robert. Thank you for all that you do for the churches youth.

Speaker 1: 22:57

Thank you, god bless. Lord Jesus, we thank you for your love for us, that you love us no matter what our thoughts are, no matter what we do, but you call us always to know you more and to love you more authentically. But I just pray for this gift of understanding from the Church's perspective that we need to reach out to those who are on the outskirts of our church, but also that those who are against and struggling also feeling alone, that they may understand that the church is their home too. God, send your holy Spirit and guide us and give us your peace andf we ask this and your peace and your blessing upon each and every one of us in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

: 23:53

Thank you so much for joining us today on the Catholic influencers podcast. We really enjoy having you listening and we thank you so much for the feedback. Please continue sending that through or you can check out on the website, frgministry.com/podcast or any of FRG ministry Social medias Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram, and we'll be back next week. God bless.