In this episode of the Catholic Influencers Podcast Fr. Rob Galea and Danii discuss what the Catholic Church teaches about Divorce and annulment and why the sacrament of marriage is so important. Danii interviews Sam Clear about his experience of going through the process of divorce and annulment.
An OSV Podcasts partner. Discover more ways to live, learn, and love your Catholic faith at osvpodcasts.com. Sharing stories, starting conversations.
In this episode of the Catholic Influencers Podcast Fr. Rob Galea and Danii discuss what the Catholic Church teaches about Divorce and annulment and why the sacrament of marriage is so important. Danii interviews Sam Clear about his experience of going through the process of divorce and annulment.
An OSV Podcasts partner. Discover more ways to live, learn, and love your Catholic faith at osvpodcasts.com. Sharing stories, starting conversations.
Hey everybody, welcome to the Catholic Influencers Podcast. A conversation to help Catholic Influencers like you and me to go deeper and further in influencing our world for Jesus. I'm your host, father Rob Galea.
:and I'm your Co-host Danny Sullivan. and today we're going to be talking to you about Catholics and divorce.
Speaker 1:Another tough topic to talk about today we're choosing them, aren't we?
:I feel like we is an exaggeration. One of us is definitely keen to do these big discussions and another one's like, Oh, can we talk about like vocation? Maybe. There we go, we want to see who's looking, who's looking for the bigger topics. But yeah, today we're talking about something quite a sensitive topic I suppose cause you and I, everybody knows someone who has been through divorce. In fact, actually the statistics are quite high. Yeah. I think it's like 35 to 50% of marriages these days end in divorce. That's crazy. That's so high. I hope everyone goes into marriage with like these intentions that it is going to last forever. But then such high statistic saying it doesn't. Yeah, that's right. You know what? I'm impressed that you managed to say the word statistics.
Speaker 2:People wouldn't think that English is my first language, my only language and I struggle.
:It is high to think that so many marriages end up in divorce, even though I know I saw at least the people I know that have been through divorce didn't intend for the marriage to end in divorce. But you and I know that relationships fizzle out and people change and things happen and for thousands and thousands of reasons. And it's interesting that if I start off with this statement, which sounds a bit harsh, but you know, the church does not recognize civil divorce. That's a bit harsh. It is a little bit harsh, but let me try and explain what I mean by this because today what we want to talk about is Catholics and divorce but also the process of announcement, what it means and I'll just want to explain what the sacrament of marriage is.
Speaker 2:Okay, so marriage is one of how many sacraments?
:Seven. Seven sacraments. There are seven sacraments. You got that right? Yes, and every one of the sacraments is a sign. For example, the Eucharist is a sign of God's sacrifice of the cross with us. The anointing of the sick is the sign of God's healing in this world. I remember one time I think we were like on a road trip father Rob and you're like who knwos what's a sacrament? And I either didn't know or just completely blanked and you seemed really like concerned. I didn't know. I probably should have known and then you drilled into me like a sacrament is a visible sign of the invisible mystery of God. I can't forget that sentence now. So now a sacrament is like a visible sign of the invisible mystery of God. A marriage is a visible sign of the invisible mystery of God. And what is the mystery we're talking about? God's love.
Speaker 1:That's great. Great.
Speaker 2:Okay, so it is, it is a sign of the God's love. Unconditional love. Okay. And, and when we, when people commit to marriage, they commit to three things. In fact, in an interview, when before we're preparing for marriage and also at the marriage itself, there are three questions always that we ask the capital. And the first question is that have you come here freely and without reservation? No one's forcing you to get married. So that's the first thing. Why? Because that is the way God loves us freely and without reservation. No one's forcing God to love us. The second thing I ask is that you realize that this marriage is for ever, that there's a permanence about marriage. And that's again God's sign. God saying that I'm going to love you and this is what we commit in in marriage. We say until death do us part. And so that's the permanence of marriage. But the third thing is also the openness to life that we intend at some point in the marriage or throughout the marriage, to be open to life. Because love, the love of a couple does not end in itself. It's always transcendent. And that's the way God's love is for us. It's creative. And when we're together as husband and wife, you become a sign of God's creative love. So the church as a priest and, but also the church in itself is a protector of the sacrament, the sign of God's love. And that is why that is why it does not recognize civil divorce. In fact, Jesus talked about divorce, they asked him about divorce, should a husband divorce his wife say if he burns the toast with, which was enough. Like, I don't know if they had toast then, but that was enough for the husband. It was always the husband who could write a script of divorce and say, hey, I've divorced you, and then the woman is left alone. That's a bit unjust don't you think?
:Oh my gosh, does she have any like heads up or does it just like come in the mail one day? Maybe not in the mail, but left on her pillow or something in the next morning. I don't know how it was delivered, but it was very unjust. But anyway, take away the injustice part. But there's also the what Jesus says, listen, you cannot divorce your wife. Even wifes you cannot divorce your husband. And this is a bit crazy because it was a bit unfair for the Jews because the Jews, according to Moses, they were allowed to divorce their wives and they were allowed to divorce their husbands. But Jesus keeps on saying even when he was asked over and over again, he says, nothing. No one can separate what god has put together. And in fact we even mentioned that during the wedding ceremony. So if no one like earth can't separate what God has put together, what about marriages that then fall apart? Because like with that statistic, 35 to 50% of marriages are ending in divorce. So, obviously not all marriages are going to stick together. Not even Catholic ones with the best of intention. What do we have as Catholics? Okay, so, well I'll say this, that the church recognizes that some marriages don't sort of are not healthy and some relationships fall apart. And this is one of the things that the church asks and recommends is something called separation. Okay. So that is where they recognize, Hey, for example, that a relationship is no longer working or it's not that there's no love in this relationship. So it does say that there's separation, but separation is always a last resort. Okay. The church will always recommend that we do everything in our power to bring this marriage back together. Not of course if there's abuse in the relationship. Okay. It's important to get away, particularly if there's non-resolvable issue that is persistent. Okay. And through counseling and to find separation and then, and then if this, if they feel or they, they have reason to think that this relationship was not valid in the first place. There's the, the process of announcement. Is it like, I know that growing up annulment a word that was spoken about. How different is it from a divorce? Is it just the Catholic version of a divorce? Like what has to happen for someone to be annulled? Well, first of all, an annulment is not a Catholic version of divorce. Okay? It's not a Catholic divorce. So when we're saying annullment, we're using the word annull, which means null and void. Okay, so once the sacrament has happened, there's nothing that can separate the sacrament. God is not going to stop loving us because we have been, we stopped loving. God is not going to stop loving us just even if we're unfaithful, God is not going to stop loving us. That's the same with marriage. That marriage is still valid, even if one is unfaithful and one is not faithful to their commitment to marriage. But also what it looks back is the process of the sacrament looks at marriage and sees if the marriage was valid, whether it was a sacrament in the first place. So we'll look at the three things that happens in marriage that's for example, the freedom, the things we talked about at the beginning, that it is the permanence of marriage and that the openness the life and make sure that those were there in the first place. Because if they were not, then even though they exchanged vows, even though there was a wedding ceremony, maybe it was a marriage but it wasn't a sacrament of marriage. Because like the state, just because the state approves a marriage does not mean it is a sacrament, because the state can approve a marriage. Even if the couple don't intend to stay forever. They can still approve marriage if they decide to be not open to life. And even if they are, even if it's an organized marriage, they're being forced to marriage, the state can still validly marry you, but it's not a valid sacrament. So it looks through this through a process of annullement to check and whether the marriage was valid. Now, this could be tough just because like you think like, okay, my parents have gone through an annulment and they have been approved of an annullement, but what? What does that mean for me? Was I born out of a marriage that wasn't a marriage? Was I born out of a place that there was no love? But just because there's an annulment doesn't mean that the couple weren't compatible. And it doesn't mean that the couple were not in love, but it does mean that there were impediments to the sacrament. Okay. So these impediments to marriage, do they have to be against those three things? So the freely, the forever and that open to life. What is an example that might then make annulment be approved? Well, look, I'd start off by saying that the church doesn't take this lightly. Okay. So it goes through an intense and intense investigation, so to speak. It asks questions and it will not say that as a sacrament is not there and was not valid unless it knows beyond the shadow of a doubt that it was not a sacrament. And that is where once there is no sacrament of course it allows for remarriage. Okay. For example, maybe someone gets married because they feel guilty, they feel sorry for their fiance or their boyfriend and they think, Oh, this guy really wants to get married or the guy feel sorry for the girlfriend because she wants to get married but he's not so sure about it. So maybe he was motivated out of guilt or guilted into something like this or maybe she got pregnant for example, and he feels that he owes it to her and owes it to the family to get married. Well, if there is no freedom in that, if guilt is the motivation, then there's a possibility that that was not a valid sacrament or maybe, for example, there are some secrets in a marriage. Someone, one of them is having an affair but doesn't tell the other person and they don't intend to get married forever or someone did it because they want to get a visa to get into a country, but they don't tell their spouse about it. They manipulate the person into something like that. So of course that will not be a valid sacrament. Or even maybe someone is saying that they thinking that when they get into marriage that they don't want to have kids, but they don't tell, they don't tell the future spouse about it. So these, if they can prove these things, then yes, these become reasons and impediments to the sacrament of marriage. So through a process, the church discerns and tries to figure out whether that was a valid sacrament in the first place. And if it wasn't, then it will grant an annulment. So for an annulment to be approved, decided that sacrament is invalid. Something has to has happened pre wedding. Yeah, that's right. So if something happens in the marriage, so they went into it completely faithful and then one, you know, party cheated on the other. When you're unfaithful, can that have an anomaly or does it have to have happened before? Pre wedding?
Speaker 2:Well, look, you see the marriage is about the intention going into the sacrament. So like when it comes to, for example, celebrating the Eucharist and consecrating the Eucharist, there's a lot of intention there. So the intention of the priest is to consecrate the bread that is on the altar on the corporal or wherever there. So there's no intention, for example, and they left the Eucharist at the back in the sacristy and there was no intention to consecrate that then whether you want it or not, it's not that the intention was not there. So I can not intended after. Now when it comes to marriage of a couple, the minister is not the priest, the minister, are the couple. So the intention needs to be there before. If they are unfaithful to the marriage after, then it is still a sacrament. One is unfaithful or two are unfaithful to the sacrament, but still they made that promise to be faithful, to continue to be with each other, to continue to love one another til death do them part. And this is so tough. It is so tough, but we cannot undo what God has put together. Those are his clear words in the scripture and also clearly the teachings of the church.
Speaker 3:Okay, I get that. But it seems a bit harsh. Like I dunno, like to say like, yeah, you were married and even though this mistakes have happened to now, you're still married and like there's, you can't be an old. So you know, you're like, let's say this happens early on and the church wouldn't let someone go and get remarried because it happened. I don't know. It's just confusing and it seems harsh, but I get it.
Speaker 2:Well, it is harsh and the sacraments, but the sacraments, when we go into sacraments, what God has tied together, we cannot, we cannot undo. Now the sacrament, the validity of the sacrament is still there. But it doesn't mean that the couple have to live together and live as a married couple. And that is why there's the importance of separation and things and counseling and so on, so forth. But the even though it is hard and it is delicate and it's difficult to deal, especially when marriages and relationships fall apart, that church does try to approach this with love as much as possible.
Speaker 3:That makes things a lot clearer. But you know, you and I, father Rob, neither of us are married so we haven't been through a process like this. So we're going to have an interview now with Sam clear who's going to talk a bit about the process that he went through with his divorce and annulment and helps shed some light into that of what it's like to go through this, through this whole process and remain faithful.
Speaker 2:Sam, you've joined us today to talk about divorce and annulment and your experience with it. I just wondered if you could introduce yourself and maybe share a bit about why we've asked you to speak today.
:It's strange in a way to be invited to speak on this because I spend my whole life speaking, but definitely not about divorce and annulment. I have a background in mechanical engineering. I worked full time in youth ministry around Australia and New Zealand occasionally to the United States from 2006 to 2008 I walked 15 and a half thousand kilometers around the world, ran for the unity of the church and that's my full time job. Now he's unpacking the lessons from that walk around the world and working with students, I work with around 10,000 students a year. And I do mention to the students and to the staff members, I run professional development days for staff that the walk around the world and nearly dying eleven times, as difficult as that journey was actually wasn't the most difficult part of my life. The most difficult part of my life was a few years later when I got married and one week into marriage realized that not everything was as I thought. And then it was a year and a half later that we were separated. And then the annulment process begans with divorce. And so I am divorced. I'm an old, I'm very much single at the moment. So it is a very personal part of my life, but it is certainly a part of my journey.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. And we're so honored that you are opening up to talk about this when it's not the thing that you talk about as much as that walk all around the world praying for Christian unity. Do you mind sharing a bit about your own story? You know, whatever you're comfortable sharing about that.
Speaker 5:Well, it's a very difficult subject to speak about because involves someone else and she's not here, she's not here to defend herself. And there might be things that I would say where she would genuinely roll her eyes and say, no. But as you can imagine, the fact that we aren't married, there were issues there. So what I might do is, particularly for the listeners, is just begin with the reason for a annulment. I've been granted an annulment on the grounds of being inveagled by deceit. Which is pretty heavy when you think about it, that there was a deliberate deception. However, I will say this, in her defense, it wasn't out of malice. I think it was more out of a genuine desire to be loved, but feeling that if the whole truth was that the marriage wouldn't go ahead. As you can imagine for me, extraordinarily confusing and it wasn't that I got all the information at once. And so trying to get it to the bottom of what has happened and how we've ended up at this point and we had dated for a little over one year. Um, I then proposed we were engaged for 10 months. Um, so I, I think time wise and we knew each other for a number of years before we started dating. So I think time wise it was normal. There was a little bit of apprehension leading up to the wedding. There was some threads speaking to show, uh, but I wasn't getting any straight answers at that point. And I do remember honestly standing at the altar, not filled with love but filled with hope. I hope the person who I am marrying is who I think it is. And then it was actually funny enough on the way to the honeymoon that the, I guess the main thread unravels. We were kind of on eggshells from that point on and trying to both work together and be a married couple, but also trying to get to the bottom of what was, what was going on. And it was a difficult, it was a difficult subject to raise. I think we need counseling. Thankfully when I did raise it, she happened to have been talking to her mom that day and her mum had suggested it. One of the issues we dealt with was how we communicate. I don't know. It's funny. This is where it gets really difficult because I'm talking about someone else. You've all said it isn't here to defend themselves, but we used to term it robust conversations. Some would call it arguments. We went on eggshells quite literally. So it was difficult to bring that up. But we went off to counseling. We had both decided that we weren't getting anywhere. The counselor, I went and chatted to someone working in the office for marriage and family planning in the archdiocese of Sydney and just explained the situation and asked for help. And this particular person, suggested antiquated sister who works as a counselor. So we went off to see her and if anything I'll going to be honest. That was, that was a relief that sister said she blocked, looked at my wife and said, you're as hard as a rock and looked at me instead and your smashed, I'd like you to separate for a period of time and I'd like to work with your individually. And because I was the one who was in the position of feeling a bit smashed, um, I guess I was more than okay with that, but my wife did not agree with that. In fact she said if we separate it's over. That was, really difficult to work with. And then that the counselor just said, would you mind saying a psychologist who I know. So we'd went off to see the psychologists and that helped. That was fantastic as well, to be able to put on the table what the facts were, not just where there was misunderstanding or disagreement. Eventually got to a point where I had to sit down and write out everything about the situation and it was to try and separate what was detrimental to the marriage and what was just normal issues in relationships. And once I'd done that and was able to see quite clearly like these are what the really big issues are and they are significant and then talking to a few people, parish priest, my Bishop and the psychologist and all of them saying, it was actually the Bishop who said, I don't think I am able to fix your marriage because I think you don't have one. We understand marriage to be a contract, a covenant and there are certain things that define a marriage as Catholics would believe there is a genuine definition of what marriage is, which means there was also a lot of things that aren't. So in the end I agreed that, that we likely didn't have a marriage. The problem is we're still married. And at the time I was genuinely scared of her. Now we are on talking terms again many years later and that has changed. But at the time the fact was I was scared of her, so I didn't want to bring it up. And as it turns out in the end she raised it. So she brought it up and, and basically made the call and say, either you're in or you're out. And I said, I still think we should separate and say, well that's it. So I packed my gear and moved in with some, some Catholic mates and that was the most terrific part. That was when all of a sudden it felt like I was walking around with the biggest label on my head. And the worst part about it was so many people made assumptions. And that's the horrible thing is that people can see something or they hear something and they run with that. It was a really hard time to navigate through. And it was really only my family and closest friends who did know what was going on and where that support was. You feel like you, you lose your name. All of a sudden you are a divorcee. You're not seeing clear who walked around the world. You're not seeing clear from Tasmania. You just use a divorced person. What I hated was that the first part of the Norman is you have to divorce. I don't think a lot of people realize that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I was going to ask a couple of questions about that. Like you mentioned that you've got this label, but then you're not just divorced. You're also now annuled.
Speaker 5:Does that mean technically that I can refer to my ex as my ex girlfriend? There was no marriage. I even have it said sometimes to some of my friends, sometimes my ex girlfriend and they say which one? And I say my ex, ex. Yeah my Ex I leave it at that and my ex, and it's not, I think I should say this, it's not that you get a clean slate and you start again. It was there. And I didn't date for all those years. So from separation in 2012 the annulment didn't come through until late 2017.
Speaker 3:So as a five years, what happens in those five years?
Speaker 5:My good friends, I pray a lot. I went to the gym a lot. Actually father Rob and I went to the gym in the Holy land in Jerusalem one time. I did hit the gym pretty hard. But that was part of I think of the coping mechanism through that. And that was really difficult. And the reason that I didn't date was that whilst there was a very strong assumption that there wasn't a marriage, I do live with the assumption that it might be. And so that had to be honored. So I stayed single, I actually wore my wedding ring for the entirety of the time until the normal process had finished. That was horrible. I didn't like that. But I accept and I genuinely do accepted, that that is the way it should be. Enormous processed, I found actually quite healing. I've heard other people who struggled with the, you do a questionnaire to start with. I think it's 14 questions and I've heard some people say they found that very confronting, very difficult but because I had beforehand done my whole list of trying to separate it out and what was just standard stuff and what really was detrimental. When I looked at the questions I thought, Oh, I've got this already. It's like cut and paste. And there was other bits I had to fill out, but I found the process quite comforting and, and dealing with people in, in the marriage tribunal. Obviously if they're working in that as their workspace, their ministry, you're not going to be there if you lack compassion. So to work with him, I was very happy to get a judge who was renowned for being Orthodox and odd. He would say, no. I was actually really happy to get that because I think annulment specifically, it has a reputation in some circles as just Catholic divorce. It didn't work, so we'll give you the annulment so you can have another go. Where's the judge that I got was actually one of the guys who would one of these priests who would often just say, no, you are married. That sent me at ease a bit that, okay, this has been done properly.
:Yeah, I dunno if that would said many people at ease. I think it says a lot about you and your faith and the importance of this annulment process.
Speaker 5:I think the, the anxiety that I went through before separation and the anxiety I went through in that time of separation before the annulment began was that yes, I believe that there was no marriage, but at the same, by the same token, yes. I believe that marriage is an extraordinary sacrament and that needs to be up Hills.
Speaker 3:So as you mentioned, it was a very long process. It was five years from separation to the annulment being finalized. What was it like when it came through.
:So complicated because in one sense do you celebrate? I mean, there was utter relief, but do you celebrate the fact that you were inveagled by deceit? It's like saying yes, you lost. It's such a bizarre thing, but the overwhelming sense was one of relief. Normally a normal process wouldn't have taken that long. It was stretched out because of a couple of technicalities that happened during it. And I'm just using the word technicalities to not talk about exactly. It's a nice blanket statement. It took a lot longer. Yeah. Um, even the judge from the tribunal rang me at one point. I was at home on the farm in Tasmania. I was actually raking hay and got a phone call from the judge just to explain why it was going to take another year. And when I received a phone call, it was already about a year to a year and a half overdue. So when I got the phone call, I thought, Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness, this is it. So I've stopped the tractor. A serious phonecall you've stopped the vehicle. I've stopped the tractor on listening and for him to say it's going to take another year and just there was a sense of it's never happening. And so when the annulment did come through, I was actually, I had just finished running a reflection day for students in Canberra. I had jumped on a bus and was driving up to Sydney to do a speaking engagement that night in Sydney and I had some missed phone calls and one of the missed phone calls was from the tribunal. And so I rang them back, quite nervous and excited and she was very chirpy from the outset and I thought, Oh my goodness. And it was, she said, I'm very pleased to tell you that, that the decisions been made and it's been declared null and void. You are annuled. Seems like such a big thing. Just to get a phone call on a bus from Canberra. It was horrible. All I wanted to do for literally you know the Cheshire cat who just smiles the most. I'm sitting on this bus filled with people going from Canberra to Sydney with this massive smile on my face. And honestly, it's the only time i t's ever happened in my life where all I wanted to do was swear really loudly in celebration. And I texted that to a friend, a married couple, and the wife, she texted me back and said, I think the word you're looking for is alleluja. Yes, it is. Good friends to have, right? Um, so it was, it was bizarre to be sitting on a bus and be mute. I've made a living out of talking about the stuff at the walking around the world. It's cool stories. This is the first time I've actually sat down and talked about going through divorce and annulment. It's not a cool story that hurts, but that's where Jesus is in the midst of our suffering and, and inviting us to pick up our cross and carry it. And we don't want to do that at times. Cross hurts. Splinters. It's heavy. He's in there with us and there is hope. It doesn't mean though that the paine is going to go straight away. And it was a long journey. It said the walk around the world that was 568 days, three times at gun point, four times knife point, a beaten up stung by scorpion, face to face with the Puma, multiple severe dehydration with organ failure or two bedroom invasions. Really bad stuff. And yet it was that five years going through the divorce and annulment, that's where the real pressure was.
Speaker 3:Wow. Like, and thank you so much for speaking about this because as you mentioned, it's a big thing to talk about. It's very personal. There's another person involved and it's not something that you have spoken about before publicly or yet in such detail. So we are really honored that you have spoken about this and sharing your story. Is there any advice that you might have for someone that has to go through the annulment process?
Speaker 5:Be gentle, I think also be specific in who you talk to. Um, there's a tendency to want everyone to understand how miserable and how injustice was and whatever it might be, but try where possible to be specific in who you air that dirty laundry to. Um, also try to, and this is very hard and I didn't do this well, try to defend the other person. If Diane they to defend themselves, try to defend it, it is very difficult, particularly if you feel like people are blaming you and do you believe genuinely it's not your fault if it's tough but love your enemies. And in this occasion the other half might be the enemy in a genuine way. So love your enemies. Try to defend each other. The other thing I would say for anyone going through a separation or you think that there are grounds for annulment simply to go into the tribunal, they are very welcoming and many of the people there quite genuinely, if they can, they all help you to get your marriage back on track. If possible. They might also be able to point out to you what the, what grounds are for annulment and what aren't. I think it's very important that we don't ever use annulment as it didn't work and I want to move on, just want to be with this person. Now we really got to hold up what marriage is there. It also, can I say something to, for anyone who is going to get married? Just one thing that I learnt that being that anything that's a problem. Now, marriage doesn't fix it and it can be used as an excuse and I still cringe when I hear it where someone says, Oh yeah, we're really struggling with this, but I'll look once we're married to be okay. No, no, no, no, no, no. If anything, and talking, this isn't just from my own experience, but talking to my friends who have beautiful marriages, anything that was an issue before marriage becomes a bigger issue once you're married, don't just use marriage as a bandaid, so out of love for each other. Try to bring about unity in those areas where you already know you. There are some soul points.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for coming in today, Sam, and having this discussion. It's really an honor to be able to hear his story, about your own experience through divorce and annulment cause it's not something that I think is spoken about because it is very personal. So thank you for sharing that and giving us an insight into what that process looks like when you actually go through it and the struggles and the pain and also the joy as well as you said though. Thank you very much for that and we'll be praying for you as well and for your ministry and yeah, thank you very much, God bless.
Speaker 5:Very welcome, God bless.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us. Today it's Catholic Influencers Podcast. We hope that you've learned something more about divorve and annulment. If you want to learn more about seeing clear and his incredible walk around the world praying for Christian unity go to samuelclear.com. We'd love hearing from you. So please reach out and get in touch with frgministry.com/podcast or any of our social medias, Facebook, Instagram or Twitter at FRG ministry. Until next time, God bless.