Eranos pt 4 w/ The Kingless Generation

Fergal from the Kingless Generation and I close our current chapter on The Eranos Roundtable by discussing its slow unceremonious end  and it's new re-birth as a corporate retreat

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Kingless Generation, a podcast on the deep history of class struggle, paleo-parapolitics, and the demonology of capital. I'm your host, Fergal Schmoodlock, and I'm here once again with the great Scott Ryan of the Dust Light Archives podcast. How are you doing, Scott? I am doing well and yourself? I can't complain. You know, it's a beautiful summer. The birds are out. You know, we're here in Tokyo. We're we're living. We're surviving. Uh, you know, the all kinds of crazy stuff was maybe going to be happening this summer, but um there, you know, the the battle between the nothing ever happens people. Well, I mean, lots is happening, but you know, I get maybe it's just a matter of whether you're under the happening line or above the happening line, the event horizon.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yeah, it's so yeah, it is so hard to tell because I feel like things are constantly happening, and you can tell when you look back even a few years ago, and you go, well, how was it then compared to how it is now? Um, but we definitely live in a time, I think, where there's this constant feeling of just like this apocalyptic foot dropping at any point that's uh thankfully seems to happen in stages at least, as opposed to you know the way it gets portrayed a lot of times. But yes, I totally get that.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Yeah, and maybe it it may be that they're designing it very carefully so that uh those inside, those outside, any given realm of hell are uh carefully balanced such that nobody gets the strong enough feeling like, oh, it's really happening, it's really going down. Now's the time to throw down. I saw there was just a man, an 80-year-old man in France, who was arrested after having a shootout with gendarmes in France because he was convinced one day that Macron had been overthrown and the revolution was happening. So um dang, okay. Some kind of uh I don't know about support for that guy, but like just okay, like you know, a big, a big flow nod and okay to that man. Um because I get it, yeah. Big I get it to that man because like we're all kind of like, what's the what can I do that would mean something? Everyone is kind of in this, you know, and and I feel like they've got the lines cutting us all and and siphoning us into cults and uh sects and and that's the isn't that the the topic that we're really on here, I think. Uh we've been covering uh major ruling class cult structure, but also perhaps a a laboratory for future cult structures across the social landscape and across whatever event horizon of the event. I think they made sure that the event never quite happened. People are still talking about that one piece by the guy in like the nation or some shit. Years ago, years ago. I rem I have a memory. Um I'm gonna bleep this out, but I was in and there was a there was an earthquake. It hit the east coast of the United States. I have no idea if you would remember this or not, but when would this have been? It would have been in I don't offhand 2014, 15. I bet. Um and I maybe I was reading about that then, even. I think I was, and like, you know, it was it was back when they were starting to report on the ruling class are building underground bunkers and luxury uh long-term pods and tunnels. And uh now as they don't now, you know, now it's just there are non-disclosure agreements, and people know that there are like Manhattan Project scale things going on to build Mark Zuckerberg, supposedly a giant thing under Hawaii. Yeah, yeah, but it's probably not actually for him, it's probably like just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

So that's one thing that has been driving me nuts in the US media is the fact that they have come out and said that they're building a giant military bunker under that ballroom or whatever. The yeah, the ballroom too. I don't know how much you pay attention. Yeah, that's it, and yeah, it's insane because like at this point, multiple times it's been confirmed by official sources, yeah, there is a giant military base being built under the ballroom. And when you read US media coverage, they're still talking about a fucking ballroom.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

And it's like it's a culture war so incredibly and not even just that, but like how you're framing it.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Mangle B R is out there building a building a ballroom. Because he's uh it is like the news story is a military base, yeah, exactly. Like, you know, absolutely they're building bunkers to escape, and you're not in them. You're not in them. So what does that mean? Yes, right? Yeah, oh my god, yeah, and it's all secret society dynamics to keep those lines in this place or that place, right? Um, so one place that uh one pre-history of that that I think we can see, the the the bringing of secret society cult dynamics mainstream in a way, in the kinds of things that we're seeing in Nexium, right? Uh is which you are doing a Nexium series for anybody who doesn't know on the Dust Light Archives podcast, of course, which is fantastic, and you need to check that out immediately if you've not already done so.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Uh but uh this is a pre one part of the pre-history of that when it was a very elite kind of academic, coded, maybe midway through, uh thing, but uh Eranos, right? Eranos, the Eranos meetings, yes, um which again I was thinking about the name, isn't that uh they love these games of uh of language, of meaning that keep you just a little bit dazzled with a difference that is, you know, oh this thing is not quite the same as this other thing, and uh it maybe there's something uh it it it's all about these tricks that fool you into thinking there's an intelligence that's smarter than me behind this thing, a big other or an other who is supposed to know, and so on. Right? Yeah, you could think about the dual use of all that Lacanian psychoanalysis too, right? Uh but like no Eranos is that Eranos is that is is what I was thinking, like you know, because like and they had a uh because Eranos means in Greek, you know, uh a feast or something, but also Eranos in Latin, or you know, you parse it as some kind of strange Latin. It it was us. It was us all along.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah. Yeah, that is that is incredibly interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Yeah, no, uh Podria Abercido.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Um I just out of curiosity, could could you break that down? Like, how does that how does like how does it mean it was us in Latin?

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Era is the imperfect third person singular of to be, right? Um, and in a lot of romance languages, you would hear that as I think it was us, just vaguely. I mean, like Spanish likes to put to answer to put the person on it when you answer a question like that, like I think. Like if I'm thinking about like Poco Joe videos I watched with my kids, like uh, you know, who is it who is it? Uh eres tú. It what it is you, or you are you, is what it literally is, right? Um to answer that question. So actually answering that question, it almost nosotros, maybe is what the Spanish would be. I don't know. It was us. Um it's imperfect, right? It's not like fuemos instantaneous.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Um yeah, so I I'm looking this up right now because I was I was really curious. So so the the nos is the us and then the era is the it was basically third person singular, nos would be okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

Yeah, exactly. That would be the Latin for nos.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

And so that that that is fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

It was us all along. Yeah, it's not fue either. Fu A would be an instantaneous past. Um imperfect is like continuous action in the past, yeah. Uh or it used to be us. No, and I'm always like so fast. No, go ahead. No, no, no, you're always so fast. No, do it, do it.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

I'm just gonna say I'm so fascinated by like, you know, when when we're making, you know, when we're when we're trying to piece these stories together and stuff too, like that line is is so interesting to me because it's like they they absolutely do use symbology, and symbology has power, and these things are like important to notice and to remark upon. And then at the same time, like, and you know, I think that's one failing of a lot of uh especially you know, kind of older communist thought a lot of the time is that they tend to ignore that side of things, or they uh um, you know, or you know, they tend to be, and it makes sense because historically they needed to be, they tend to focus so hard on the material that sometimes I think the symbolic almost seems like superfluous or something like that. And then on the other hand, you know, I'm sure like, you know, when you're doing research, you can run into people who are sitting there, you know, doing gematria and like, you know, well, this means this number or whatever, and just completely losing their mind behind the symbolism too, and you know, striking that balance you don't want to go there, finding these things because it does feel like a trick sometimes. Like to name it, it was us in Latin. That doesn't feel like an accident, like it's hard, you know, like it's it's hard to read it that way.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yes, yes. They also had a journal called Du D U, which and they're in Switzerland, so in French that would be Jew, like of right, of the masculine, and um yeah, so like of a higher entity or something, right? Like belonging to the which is this this orientalist uh you know belief channeling or something, yeah. Channeling, spirit possession, and also uh uh yeah, the the whole belief in oriental despotism, which which western ruling classes uh kind of have at their secret core, in a way, that they want to imitate. There is Oriental despotism and we want that for ourselves. This kind of theme. We should hit that as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Yeah, that makes sense. Well, because if you say the of the two, it also makes me think of like um, you know, with some of its theosophical roots as well. Like, you know, it makes me think of uh Helena Blavatsky, you know, channeling this ascended master, supposedly, or like I I you know you can read that into it as well. Um absolutely yeah, no, there's a lot of layered uh symbols. I have spoken to in there.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

I'm thinking of a certain well, it doesn't matter who, but like uh yeah, you actually like um you get that in some people who are in into this kind of thing. They'll say they're can it's very confusing what they think is oriental and what they think is occidental, you know, even Japanese people because they're in a way like totally honorary occidentals at this point, and so they see the Oriental through this occidental goggles, Europe goggles, and they they have like yeah, and and so they think I've heard someone who was pretty Aranos coded actually uh describe the Oriental as that which believes in the self belong as inherently belonging to something higher, which is also a lot of people's definition of the occident, isn't it? Like I think that's what the occidental reading class wants for for everyone. Because they think and they think that this is an oriental thing, which goes back to even Platonic Orientalism, right? Plato thinking it comes from the Chaldees, it comes from the Mesopotamians, and so on. Which is maybe true, yeah. Which is maybe true if we talk about the you know good a good and absolute good and evil, and like the the monotheism idea, maybe going back in a way to the Avesta, to Persia.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

So it's well in there's such a I I think with these cultic secret societies, it can be such a perversion of the uh you know, I think even when you think about the concept of solidarity, you know, from a leftist perspective, it is the idea of being part of something bigger than yourself, but in a good way. And then, you know, you you can see, I mean, through all of these cults, whether it is something like Nexium, whether it's something like, you know, all of the stuff that grew out of like uh Esulin and you know, like the AA's and all of that, like I mean, you know, that's a huge thing, like somebody alcohol all alcoholic anonymous will say, you know, is like you know, I need to give myself up to a higher power. So it's like uh it's such a universal thing.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

Yeah, and universal for sure. Um, although actually maybe all of this stuff about belonging is a particular kind of retrocon of that you that universal natural thing into uh peasant class subjectivity or or a ruled subjectivity, right? Uh of which the other is a totally atomized uh individual subject, which is the real perverse thing, in a way.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

That's the real neat thing. Which the the ruling class only then gets to enjoy that, uh, but through this totally abused, uh, you know, you were talking about boarding school syndrome in your Nexium series. Uh that's which is fascinating, right? Uh ruling class subjectivity being made in this kind of weird, abusive way, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Uh yeah, it's and it's one of those things that's this virus that just spreads out, where like that was one thing I was thinking about, you know, talking about how, you know, the typical way of raising an aristocrat or whatever. I'm like, it's it's miserable and it's psychically destroying. And these are some of the people who should be, you know, really benefiting from this whole and they do benefit in a lot of ways from this whole awful system they've set up, and yet still it's like the virus still destroys them as well. Like it's whatever that is, whether yeah, no.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Yeah. Which uh the other side, we should we should cover the other side of that do, right? In French, it means of belonging to of the masculine thing, something. Uh, and then in in German it means you, of course, right? So do, yeah, you know, for informal. Um, it's the second person singular pronoun. So they love playing with pronouns as this kind of elemental thing, right? Um, which is interesting if you get into you know, a language like Japanese doesn't have pronouns grammatically. So you realize if you live, spend a lot of time living in a language like that, you realize that pronouns are not some kind of key to this to the dimensions, dimensional framework of the universe or anything like that either. Right?

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Do you so that's something that I have like been fascinated about. So I talk a lot with my partner about language because she is uh uh she is a Latin major and uh very super into like you know, anytime we're talking about anything, she'll be like, well, you know what that word means, you know, what the roots of it are or whatever. And I am always like so like I I always wonder being somebody who only speaks English, and maybe you could speak to this or you'd have a perspective on it, like uh how much does language like affect our complete, like how much is it the actual box that affects our entire perception? Because, you know, I do think about like, you know, even in America where like you know, we'll say I'm sick, and uh somebody who's speaking Spanish says something closer to a sickness has overcome me. And those are two separate concepts, you know, like in you know, there's a million things like that, or even the writing where I'm like, you know, uh uh you know, vertical writing as opposed to left to right, as opposed to right to left. I'm like, what does that how much does that at a base level affect your psyche, you know?

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Or syllabic or uh logographic, right? Even if we don't uh quite subscribe to the ideographic myth, you know, there's that whole debate about like do hieroglyphs uh and Chinese characters uh encode uh ideas themselves in this platonic sense. Well, no. But at the same time, when you have one sign that stands for a whole word in one language, and actually not just one language, many different languages, it does create this larger body of meaning that I mean you're then you're getting into kind of Jungian territory there, thinking of uh many different communities and cultures all rely on these same signs for their meanings, right? Yeah, and the kind of Aranocian, some very Aronocian Japanese uh woo-woo nationalists that I've had a you know chan occasion to uh rub shoulders with talk in this kind of way about the Chinese character in this Japanese nationalist way that's really funny. So it's like you know, you can listen to their explanation and then be like, okay, so the ancient Chinese people in like 2000 BCE uh thought this way, but what about you? Like, how does that connect to your thing? But yeah, yeah, it's a Jungian idea.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

This might be a perfect spot to kind of jump into uh post-1948 Eranos, actually, because um because we were gonna go, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Eranos, it was us, also means it used to be us. So this time what we're gonna do is put a bow on. We're gonna wrap up uh this core Eranos series in preparation for other Aranos series on topics like Jung, Fury Oyezi, the novelist Talbot Mundi. There's much more. But for now, yeah, uh, we're gonna get to the moment at the end of the Cold War when uh, you know, it looks like they knew in in 1987 a serious hiatus arose, writes Hawkel on page 242, uh in his kind of final chapter going through chronologically. Uh Rudolf Ritzema, who was in sole charge, uh Olga Fruba had was dead at this point, I think, um, announced in his closing speech that Arenos was, quote, about to complete a span of time corresponding to a whole life cycle. So they knew that the Cold War was gonna end, right? And as we see, the the quote that we started the series with from Itsitsutoshihiko, where he looks back on it, he is so clearly uh conscious of it as starting with one apocalyptic moment, the one final solution that was tried by the ruling class, and then ending in this new moment when a new uh final solution, a new fond de siek, a new uh matsu jitsu is the Japanese that he used, was about to start that we are now living in. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

So here we are.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

No, and I think that is an interesting demarcation point too, because I think you know, especially in the US, we tend to divide things, I think, primarily between pre and post-9-11. But really, I mean, if you want to talk about the roots of where things things really changed and when we started heading into this second final solution or whatever it is it's when the Berlin Wall fell it's when communism was no longer a uh antagonistic force to capitalism and capitalism had free reign to basically uh you know yeah do whatever it wanted without any serious pushback or they gave us one last little uh office pizza party in the called the 1990s when they were and they uh predictively programmed us for 9-11 through uh yeah and then they then they started the demolition so I I'm trying to remember how much Hackel's book gets into the period between when Olgafrobe hands it over and when it's finally like when it's officially closed kind of in 1988 or closed it changes form seriously in 1988.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Um because you know we we read this a couple of months ago and I'm just I'm sure you've been too you know diving into so many different things that like I mean it doesn't matter a little bit too many details but I think there was outside research that I think is like I don't know what interesting we should focus on that we should spend time on that but yeah basically there uh it gradually she is more and more unable to be the organizing genius of the whole thing uh or possessed by the genius of the place and and thus able to do all this and uh she gradually hands over the reins to people like Rudolf Ritznema this guy and and there are various real estate deals and disputes that happen that are interesting along the way. Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Would you mind if I got into some of the specifics about that absolutely starting at kind of 1948 and jump before okay so because I I found a lot of this to be fairly the path it took to be pretty fascinating on its own um and so originally she kind of hands over ownership in 1948 and to my understanding it's partly you know she's getting older and her health is failing and uh part of it I think is also uh it's morphing into at the time something that is more uh grounded in something that I think uh materialists would recognize in a little less abstract in the way that you know she really uh you know presented this thing starting out she handed over to this guy named Eric Newman and he was a uh he was a um uh a a uh young was mentoring him he was one of you uh young's major proteges and he uh like really was into this idea that feels perfect for the time of 1948 like exactly you know what what a ruling class esoteric group like this needed was the idea that uh basically you know that that communism and fascism are two pathologies that both at the root of them are uh have to do with group think and that was totalitarian personality exactly yes um and he had written actually a book that had come out in 1949 that was about that called in-depth psychology and a new ethic so like I think it was really kind of clear exactly where he was coming from and he was a safe person to hand it over to uh he and he he what he did a lot of from the research I was looking at was he was this was really a big period where the stuff they wanted compiled was compiled when it was given over to the Warburg Institute when it was given over to a couple of these different uh universities for safekeeping and uh he well once 1962 hit I feel like what they wanted extracted was extracted from it and also just uh all of the leadership died I mean within like three years it was like this new guy Eric Newman uh Carl Jung and Olga Frobe are all dead I believe like it's like 1961 62 63 I think or uh something very close to that all early 60s and then so it gets abandoned kind of at that point I'm gonna go ahead and say this is speculation but I was looking a ton into the time period of the guy the people that this got handed over to which was uh uh let me pull up their names real quick uh Adolf Portman and uh the the Raikama who you were talking about and yeah Rudolf Ritzema uh maybe I misspelled it right here is it's Ritzama oh yeah you're right Ritzema yep I just misspelled in one of my notes so yes Ritzama um and they this would be speculation on my part but the the story is the funding fell away and most of the other stuff that was inside of there uh you know uh basically just due to weather you know they're out here you know in this humidity uh and you know not in a great place to store it's not like they're in the desert or something you know a good place to store documents uh the roof starts leaking and most of the stuff that hadn't been given away at that point through the Bolingen Institute and the Warburg Institute and all that uh was ruined and uh they a lot of places will kind of act like this was incompetence but I can't help but feel like that this is so perfect for them. Like there's no uh you know what I mean they they've they have the story they want to tell out they have the uh you know the material they want to spread out there you know oftentimes behind lockwell key because you know university libraries are not just open to anybody like there's a class dynamic there um and certainly in the institutes even more so but right uh so you have all of this other stuff that you know was God knows what did they're saying you know in the 30s and 40s while you know the Nazi party is rising while fascism is rising while you know World War II is happening and oh absolutely all of that just gets destroyed. So it almost feels like what was whoops you know they curated what they wanted and then yep and then it's whoops we destroyed this.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Um that happens in Jesuit archives all the time I can tell you uh documents I can think of that have terrible water damage because somebody just like spilled a whole big cup of water on them somehow one day include like the one mission leader asking for an army armies from the Philippines and from Macau to invade Japan and fight against Hideyoshi. That's pretty famous. And then oh another one just the other day I heard about was uh one of the first Japanese who really got like enough Latin and like graduated from university in Rome and really started to be able to use the bureaucracy of the church and stuff was like submitting all kinds of complaints written in Latin about the kind of racial discrimination that was starting to exist at that point.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

You get into the like mid-17th century and they start to be like you know they they used to be like yeah learn Latin get you know all great we'll make you a priest you can rise through the ranks but then at a certain point they're like oh wait a minute here what about these guys we don't necessarily want this and so this document with all these complaints as well somebody one day was just like oops a bunch of water on this so it's a little hard to read yeah no it is it's funny it's funny how that happens um and I think one one reason I would be inclined to speculate that there was a level of intentionality to this is uh rightzema locks this stuff up like he doesn't uh this this was something where if you were a part of Eranos if you were you know in the in group and the round table and all of that this was stuff that was uh freely accessible to you and one of the first things he does when he takes control is he he locks the doors and he says like you've got to go through me and you know we've got you gotta go through a whole process and then maybe you might get to see something inside um so you don't even get to see the the waterlogged page yes exactly or you know it's in the process of being waterlogged at that point over the next couple of decades like it's basically lock and key yes yeah from like uh 1963 to 1988 when he ends up you know banging the gong and declaring the end of Aaron O's right um he literally bangs it gone yeah yes no um and uh I think the Hawkle book touches on it a little bit but like I was uh reading some accounts of it and when he does that it's it's kind of hilarious like the way he there were some internal divisions in the group which we can maybe touch on in a minute um because they are interesting but oh yeah he he does this out of nowhere like right and everybody's freaking out and he's basically like the buses are here to take you away in five minutes and like the bosses show up and they all they all leave like it was a very uh coordinated very cynical plan on his part yeah everyone file out of the room right now I just made this announcement yeah hackle talks about everyone felt the way that a a marriage partner feels upon hearing that their marriage partner has long felt that the partnership was no longer meaningful it's this long kind of thing it's like oh man did you just go through a breakup or something anyway um yes and he uh so I I think you know we might have mentioned it briefly before but his time is interesting to me too because he got incredibly into I Ching like he basically turned this into like an I Ching workshop for almost 20 years. Um a lot of people these people were into I Ching like the um the melons right the melons were and oh fruba herself was often like consulted the I Ching on whatever and they were also in investigating like North African divination systems and stuff like they really they that was one thing that they were into but like yeah then it just becomes the Qing Club first yeah it becomes e Ching Club to the point where like they are I mean almost exclusively lecturing on the subject you know they're uh deep deep deep into uh you know numerology as far as it goes uh the one thing that's interesting to me that you normally see with western at least in my at least with what I'm aware of in a lot of western uh esotericism is this uh intention almost to tie I Ching to like like Alistair Crowley did it in a very foolhardy way the Golden Dawn tried to do it where they're like okay Iching and the tarot and Hebrew letters are all basically the same system and how can we mash these together you know which doesn't really work very well um and they were not even doing that they were like exclusively um very very heavily focused. Um and one direction you could go with uh ruling class orientalism like let's go as oriental as we can far east as we can and just go with that that must be what's right yeah sounds and I could almost wonder too exactly what his deal was because I I do think the the US at the time they're heading into you know BF Skinner and cybernetics and like this real binary sort of thinking and it does almost feel like either a pushback or a different or possibly just you know a different flavor or something because I ching is so to my understanding like it it very much eskews the idea of binary it's a lot more about like I know about that well there's yin and yang operating in all those little combinations. Yeah that's a doubt isn't it isn't that in the I Ching I don't yeah there's there's a system of like hexagrams right so there's like this big kind of field and like is it on this side and this side and there's like different symbols that go with each one and um but there is yin and yang are operating in that it's usually isn't it mapped across that like every other one is yin yang yin yang yin yang and positive is negative around the circle perhaps yep that is definitely one way that it is regularly conceptualized and it's um sort of at least in you know the western stuff I've read about it so who knows how accurate this is but my understanding is that it's kind of it's very based on almost like thesis and antithesis all the time. That's kind of what I yeah creating a synthesis if that makes sense. Um and so so maybe it's not maybe it's even still you know the same sort of binary you can have that I don't know you can s bring that dimension into it if you want.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Yeah yeah um now it's there I mean that yeah that notion that there's no binary there's no self and other there's no nothing in in eastern thought I mean yeah there is from the beginning and all the way through and you know you have to have a self other binary to have like human thought at all in some kind of way.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Absolutely yeah yeah no uh definitely um I so like also I mean one other thing that is happening in this time period is these institutions uh that were funding Eranos have largely pulled out and it is being self-funded which uh does lead I think you know to more eccentricity does lead to the building you know falling apart in some ways and uh they there ends up being these two other guys named Gilbert Durand and James Hillman who like are uh basically like they they feel like uh uh rightzema and Adolf Portman who Adolf Portman he leaves in 72 he's really not he he was originally the other co uh chair at the time of Aranos but uh right they they believe he's not extreme enough they're like dude funding is never coming uh like let's just kind of accept this and let's dig in and uh they are so they're they're in this kind of internal fight and that's when the gong banging happens that's uh part of I think what he was trying to do was he was he was losing people and to do that was to you know end it at a point where he still was the guy and these and the reason I I I think these two are interesting Gilbert Durand and um so bad with names I always gotta make sure to reference my notes to get him right and James Hillman are that are interesting is that like when we were talking before about kind of a direct route to the modern day into modern day cults and stuff like that they actually when they leave they create this group that's the translation is the center for imaginal research uh it it it's called the CRI usually you know because it's uh in Swiss and they uh end up like they're really into this idea of the diurnal and the nocturnal basically like these two separate the way they describe the two separate forces would be one is focused on like purification and fighting a toxic eternal enemy and one is in fit one is focused more on inclusion and totalizing safety and uh these places pop up like all over South America.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

There's over 60 of them and they pop up largely like after you know right wing political coups have happened and and this this was really interesting to me because when when you lay out the diurnal and the nocturnal and these ideas you know um it seems to be the culture war thing that is infecting almost like a large amount or a large uh cross section of politics in all sorts of different countries nowadays where you've got like you know what I mean like you like uh might be how they designed the Democratic Republican racket or something you know these various rackets that keep people in these boxes and cycle them around in a in a predetermined kind of flow that they want that's advantageous to them yeah and and and it and it is the like kind of the worst most regressive instincts of both sides where it's like you know on the one hand you have the kind of Republican or the diurnal that is you know they they have that fascist obsession with purification and they're constantly worried about this outside enemy you know like the Mexican rapists or whatever they've got in their mind that like is the big uh you know enemy at the time and then the uh nocturne inclusion and totalizing safety it's like the uh you know when uh democrats will really focus on you know nothing material and really make it all about you know language and about identity politics and all of that and like uh I don't know it just seemed like such a weird perfect fit to me when I started looking at their organization's kind of philosophy um friends Boaz the anthropologist who studied the Kwakwakiwak the indigenous people of Vancouver that so much of Brian Hayden's theory is based on had a theory of Apollonian cultures and Dionysian cultures which I don't know if he got that from Nietzsche exactly but Nietzsche had a binary read some Nietzsche where he's real heavy into you know Apollonian and like he definitely used the bird tragedy that's his first yeah yeah that's his first book exactly yeah and and uh where is he getting that is that also a kind of occult european idea that he would have been exposed to as a an aristocratic young young man who knows uh every binary is is ultimately uh arbitrary you know to kind of get at the question that you were you were at posing this the core this core question of linguistics and maybe cultural studies and maybe you know comparative literature itself that sort of is a is a different language a different world to live in and I think the answer is yes on some level you know it's always a a balance but um yeah it is another way to kind of format your hard drive and so I think as people who are interested in change and new possibilities and noticing new things you can do, of course even if that this isn't all there is to life and routine is good too, but uh and building up systems of solid uh symbolic uh whatever you know could shared uh consciousness uh uh at at the end of the day every binary is just you know like I don't know apples versus goats or something. You know, it could you could Look at some of these supposedly eternal binaries in this other way that's just like, oh, it's just some people at this time had this particular thing and they had this structure, but ultimately there's nothing eternal about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Yeah, that there's something very maybe like eternal about just our humanity in general as opposed to like is that kind of what you're getting at?

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Well, I don't know if there is anything eternal, but we as human beings do have to live in a world. We have to have our hard drives formatted. You know, I again this is sloppy disk kind of uh talking, but uh you know, your mind does have to have some kind of structure to it to that you live in or something, right? Um, some kind of formatting. Some kind of grid that you live on, right? So in that and but a ruling class tries to kind of take that over. And what would what would a working class and once again that too is an is the ruling class appropriation of something that ordinary people have actually created in the struggle for production and in the class struggle, right? And the and the ruling class subject comes along, whether it's a plow and even whether it's a philosophical framework of all existence, right? The philosophical framework of all existence and the, you know, I don't know, the structure of pronouns for languages that use pronouns and have the I, you, he, she, it. Uh you know, the ruling class subject comes along in esoteric speculations and says, I made this, but of course it was the ordinary person, the worker, uh, who created it in the struggle for production.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Yeah, no, and and I think these perversions always do exist. You know, I was even thinking about like uh, you know, a lot of these um like uh, you know, schools for wayward teens or even you know, some versions of, you know, like we was mentioning like Alcoholics Anonymous or something like that before. Like they they uh have directly I cited Maoist struggle sessions as inspiration, you know, for like, you know, uh I forget the guy's name, the guy who made like the game or whatever, in uh um you know, that so much of this stuff grew out of. So it it is interesting that I do think so much of this stuff always does have a real dual use to it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Yeah, the ruling class comes along and creates a tiny little box for you to live in, right? Creates a cage out of whatever you know structures of subjectivity, healthy subjectivity that a working class philosopher has already created in their natural subtle.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

So, okay, so like he does he does bang the gong in in 1998, and that's it. Bangs the gong get on the bus. For 1988, I mean, yep, get on the bus, you're leaving. Uh and you know, like I said, you had these these two other uh people who went out and started the Center for Imaginal Research, which I think does have some implications, particularly in South America in the 80s. I mean, that's where they were actually flat out showing up, but you know, um like uh 60 that it blew my mind over 60 branches. Like it's not a small group. Um but then you had Rudolf Reitzima ends up spending the rest of his life working on like an 800-page book about the I Ching, and he dies in 2006. Um, and there's still a board at Aaron O's, and it's run by a woman first, and these names are not super important because I'm probably like to to tell this part of the history, it's it's a lot of names that really don't matter very much. But you have a woman, Krista Robinson, who uh basically through a series of maneuvers involving filing papers with the government, says rights a mo is ruining an important cultural site and combines with this group called the You Hero Foundation and Spring Journal, and they take over Ayros and they restructure. Uh in partnering with these institutes, this is when it really starts to kind of uh become a corporate retreat. Like uh and in this period, really the esoteric stuff mostly gets almost completely dropped, and she's like, This is you know, a high-end hotel where maybe sometimes we can have intellectual conferences. Um and I think part of this was they were sinking financially, and uh she was trying to like dig them out, but she fails. Uh and then another woman named Wanda Lubin takes over for less than a year before also failing to make the place financially viable. Um, and then a third takes over from 2002 to 2005. Her name is Maria Daneth, and she like tries to triage the place, uh and it's it gets worse than ever, it's drowning in mortgage debt. And this is when you were kind of talking about like some of the uh um ri international real estate vultures kind of come in and um because basically like it was drowning in mortgage debt, and the Swiss Federal Supervisory Authority uh was threatening to step in and liquidate the place because the board could no longer claim it was fulfilling its statutory capital purpose because they really weren't holding conferences anymore. Uh which was there was a cultural aspect to it where you know they were uh at a point being subsidized by the by the uh state by the city to a degree. And so in 2005, the city of Escona performs a public bailout and pays off their debts to the bank.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

All right.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

They do that to avoid a a cold auction of a cultural landmark, you know, because if they let them just sink, all of a sudden they have this thing that is a Swiss cultural landmark, and now anybody could buy it, and they didn't want that. So the local government ended up bringing up international bringing in international capital, uh, and made a guy named John von Prague the president of the board.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

And he um did you have did you just I was wondering, yeah, did that buy out open up the archives? What did that do to the archives then? Is a question I had.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

So yeah, so the archives had already been mostly given off to Princeton and the Warburg Institute and the Bollingen Foundation, and uh I want to say a little bit to Caltech or whatever, uh, but what was left was mostly destroyed. Um I'm not because it was water damaged. Water damaged, yes, exactly. Uh and just humidity damaged. I mean, you can't keep uh you know uh pa like a lot of older texts like that, you know, for decades in a place with a ton of moisture, either.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Um and John von Prague, a successful Dutch businessman and former chairman of the Intercontinental Hotels Group, began to take an interest. The contact was brought about by Claudio Metzger, a local gallery owner numismatist, numismatist, think of Walter Breen, and director of the Ascona Art Center. The two men, together with Van Prague's wife, Lai Ping Folk. Folk seems to be the name Huah. Um, so and maybe this is the Hual family of Henry Hual. Maybe uh Lai Ping Folk is is Henry Folk's daughter, it seems. Which is a Singaporean is that a Singaporean family or a Hong Kong family? I've already forgotten.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

I'm not familiar with them, but I'd love to know about them.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

That's what I that's what I got at this point, but that would be something to flag. We could go deeper on that. Maybe somebody could.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Well, especially because he hilariously like uh he loses control of the board within four years because he sells off uh Casashanti in particular to his wife, who turns it into just a luxury resort. And the whole deal was super shady to the point where like the board got the local government involved, and they're like, this guy's just he's he's running a wreck, he's you know, not even hiding his corruption and his uh you know uh his shady real estate deals.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

So uh then a guy named Fabio Merlini becomes president and he is tied to the local government, so the local government kind of uh takes it over a what like through him at this point, or at least gives him permission because he has those ties. Um and oh actually, you know what's funny? When you were talking about some of the archives, some of them that did actually go to two places um in this time period. One was the Pacifica Graduate Institute, um which is uh unfortunately not tied to Pacifica Radio. I was really I was really excited when I saw that. I was like, wait, what's going on here? You know, because Pacifica Radio's uh Sublimo Jihad's done some good stuff on them. Uh Mike Laquino's mom was on the board of Pacifica Radio.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

Um but unrelated, uh just and uh once the fucking true anon guy, the true and on guy's dad was uh host on Pacifica Radio.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

Oh, was a oh, I did not know that one. Wow, yeah, there's there's always more. There's always more with uh with that podcast. It's kind of mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_02 54:52

Oh yeah. Um indeed. I uh and there's Esalin, there's Eselin connections, of course, too, which we mentioned in the first episode of this, but bringing that back to back to home base.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

Um, and Esalin had been tied to them for a long time. Eselin definitely uh was also uh also had received some of their uh archives. They had a uh there was another guy, I found this just to be interesting. Just I don't know the how much so much of this did drift to the US, even in ways you wouldn't think. One of the people too who ended up getting a hold of a decent amount of the archives was just a guy named John Earl Fetzer, who like lives in Kalamazoo, Michigan, or lived in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and he owned the Detroit Tigers for a long time, and he was just also in a cult hobbyist.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

Um at the end of this chapter is that Olga Fruba's collection of archetypal images that she would uh create and then hung them all over her bedroom until they started to spiritually possess her and um give her insomnia. Uh and then they ended up in the Varberg Institute in London, and to give only duplicate copies to the C. G. Jung Institute in Zurich and the Bologen Foundation in New York. Yes, absolutely. Um I I guess John's son Alexander von Prague, um son of Laiping folk, would uh uh put out a few more of the famous uh Eranos bulletins or whatever they were giving, you know. So in a way, the the Eranos is is always publishing their proceedings, uh at least on a surface level, right? So he does keep that going. But then, you know, archives have not really transparently been handled in the first place, so there isn't much to really hand on, perhaps.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

Yeah, no, and the the John Fetzer guy in particular was interesting to me too, because when he died, he left a massive endowment, like hundreds of millions of dollars, to his John Fetzer Institute. Uh, and the institute's like goal is to merge cutting-edge science with spirituality to catalyze a global transformation, like that's their stated goal. So you could definitely imagine, you know, uh it's not much of a stretch to go from uh you know the files he was possessing to his that his institute would keep to what his institute's goal is, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

Right. And Hawkle, you know, maybe he's kind of keeping it to a dull roar here in a lot of ways, but you can tell that he loves this material culture and he loves these provenance of archives kind of theme, for sure. He he brings the conclusion by way of a provisional conclusion to the history of Eranos, he mentions its object. I would like to mention a hitherto unpublicized mysterious tradition, which is connected with Eranos. I do not know to what extent. The story concerns a superb Gnostic medallion made of amber and set in silver, which was owned by Olga Fruba, and which she is said to have left to her good friend the Eranos speaker Jean Servier, who was also an esotericist and Freemason. The medallion is a variation of the classical Abraxis type of emblem from the early Christian era. I think that's the lion seahorse little monster that's on the it was on Jimmy Falangong's uh anti-Gnostic Action uh t-shirts back in the day, I think. Yep, yes. Uh and he he loves the pro the provenance, you know, he'll go on listing. Jean Servier then left it to Krista Robinson. Robinson duly gave it to Claudio Bonvecchio, who is still in possession of it today. He sees himself as having the obligation to entrust the medallion before his death to another worthy individual. So I think all these objects are now passing through different hands, you know.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

And I don't I don't remember if maybe we might have in the first episode touched briefly on Abraxis. I don't remember. Um I don't, especially from a Gnostic perspective, um I have such a hard time uh seeing that as anything but just symbolically nefarious because like he's like uh like one of the head archons, you know. Um there's a weird uh the thing is in several different traditions, he represents different things. He's kind of a Baphomet figure in some traditions, but usually Gnosticism in particular will label him as an archon. And I mean there is no, you know, it's kind of like demons in Christianity, like there are no good archons in uh Gnostic thought.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:35

Um the ruling class creating boxes, cages to trap trap people, and and you know, and you sort of uh maybe you can take the posture sometimes of like, yeah, we have to fight against this thing, but actually it's us creating it, right? And isn't that classic ruling uh secret society, ruling class secret society dynamics where it's like there's these scary evil entities out there? Uh really we made them up, but we are the old we secret society members are the only ones who have the magical skills to protect you, to protect all of us against them. Uh you know, by the third, fourth generation, you know, we too believe in them most of the time, except for this weird little moment in our secret society initiation where we reveal that it's actually just one of us behind the mask. So we all kind of know that at some level of our psyche that it's all a lie, but actually we mostly believe it too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

Yeah. Well, and if you get into the idea of, you know, the the Jungian concept and the uh I would say uh, you know, a concept that exists fairly broadly in Western era esotericism in general would also be the idea that like uh you know that these are different uh the the as you know as above so below, these are like both external spirits and they also exist inside of you and inside of your psyche. And I definitely think, you know, um when you look at when you look at something like the principles of chaos magic or something like that, it's like I really do personally at least I my my suspicion is that you can you know load anything with symbology and it will, you know, it will connect to certain things that are that at least exist in your psyche, if not somewhere else, you'll get something like you know the Necronomicon that was just a fictional book in a HP Lovecraft that then got turned into a grimoire that now people use or whatever. And like I definitely think that there is a um they they create these negative spirits, and then if they can convince you to uh like not to get too vigilant citizen, because I do think there's all sorts of reasons for it, but like man, you like turn on the you know TV or whatever, or like I you're constantly inundated with these negative loaded symbols. Um I definitely think that they have let's get out the tinfoil very least psychological power, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:28

Fuck it. Yeah. They do, yeah. And I I think, oh, absolutely. It is it's magic, it's renaissance magic, and and not just Renaissance, it goes way back before the Renaissance. And and so that's what Eranos is kind of doing. It's it's standing in this place uh historically and then also contemporaneously between the different levels of reality where it's the 20th century, it's the the height of modernity, it's uh everybody just belie uh uh you know, the Western tradition, the ration rationalism, uh uh Abrahamic religion. There's a good God and heaven and hell and shit. Uh and that's what everyone believes. And that's you know, um, Athens and Jerusalem, who knows? The the kind of um Judeo-Christian tradition is being formed at this time, the Zionist uh Angloid uh Nexus uh geopolitically. And however, though, at the same time, this ancient uh actual secret society religion is still there. Underneath all of that, yeah, yeah, waiting to come out really in in the way that Nexium is kind of doing today.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:50

Yeah, and it's like interesting to me because I almost feel like we live in a time where uh you know uh rash the the concept of rationalism has allowed them to almost take something like say that you know these pictorial symbol encyclopedias that you know Olga Frobe was collecting and that was given to the Warburg Institute. And uh, you know, take these things and inundate people psychically with them all the time. And then if it get if you bring it up, they almost can do like uh you know, like irony poisoned people on the internet nowadays, where it's almost like, what oh, you thought that was serious? Like that's just it's just a cool symbol. Like it doesn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:40

And like um deniability, strategic deniability structures, deniability.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:45

It's yeah, that that irony poisoning of like never having to commit to anything so you can kind of do whatever you want. And if somebody goes, Well, this seems like you're intentionally doing something, you're like I don't I don't do anything serious. What is that? Like, what kind of loser cares about serious things or whatever?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:05

Like exactly. But when you think about what does that idea, you know, Nietzsche, one of Nietzsche's powerful ideas was don't think about an idea as true or false. Think about it as a tool that does something, right? And this coincides with the Buddhist uh truth of expedient means, right? Um, when you say something, it can get someone out of a burning house, right? Um, the Zen uh dialogue calls language uh a uh life-saving sword or a murderous blade. It can kill and it can give life, right? And uh it can create beautiful spaces and palaces for the people, or it can create dank, dark cells and prisons for all the people too, right? But like shit, where where was I going with that? Uh I was doing so good, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:06

Kind of like that same dual-use technology we were talking about before, maybe like exactly Nietzsche created this.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:14

Um yeah, and all of that it works. Nietzsche was talking about like language as a tool, right? Like how to philosophize with a hammer is the subtitle to one of his things. Uh, but this is language, I just thought, as a crowbar, because what you're talking about is a crowbar that that those structures of ironic deniability are a crowbar to gradually pry loose your mom, your boomer mom's worldview, you know, that like she grew up in.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. Um yeah, no, I can I could definitely see that. Um I just uh I do think it's interesting like where all of this ended up as well, because if they do nowadays absolutely fragments, fascinating way, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:14

Like and and for ruling class structures that works really good. You know, all of you were talking about how they kept on having the question when to end it, you know, and with bourgeois kind of uh bourgeois kind of cool cool party energy, you gotta keep the cool party going only as long as it is cool, is a cool party. And if you keep it going too long, then it becomes uncool. And you wanna you gotta demolition and you gotta go to move to a new thing, right? Um, you could go real deep, you could go too young badass talking about 9-11, kind of talk about uh the twins, the shot of the twins in The Shining prophesies 9-11 because it's about the two becoming one, yeah, and the one becoming two, and it's the Soviet Union and America becoming one thing, and then maybe we split it off again. Uh and as they're having all these recriminations, they keep on calling each other schizophrenic. I love how that's like uh page 248 in Hockel. Yeah, um Rosenbaum, see Rosenbaum, this is like very uh kind of catty uh middle school girl stuff. Like Rosenbaum fell out with uh with uh yeah, anyway, it doesn't matter. They're all f falling out over like calling people schizophrenic anyway, which is fascinating. Yes, no, absolutely you can't hold together your perfect bourgeois individualism the way I can. It's very like boarding school syndrome insult.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:59

And it's interesting too. I've I've kind of I don't know if I necessarily have an answer for this, but doing this series, doing the Naxium series, looking at like, you know, like we were talking about Esselin or even Jonestown or uh you know uh Stanford Research Institute, these things do seem to have a uh a time limit attached to them. And I do think part of what you were saying is it it is like a um for lack of better word, like a hypnist sort of thing, or like uh, you know, how connected are you to the current moment. Also part of it feels to me cultural capital. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:41

You're on a cool podcast that gets uh does the does the hundred grand a month or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

And I mean uh you could see that I mean uh nowadays I being old enough, I I mean you could see even in that sphere something like I would say like like Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert when I was a teenager, and then you have like your Chapos and your true nons nowadays, and now it's moving to like Adam Friedland and uh um oh my god, what's the the big YouTuber, uh Hassan Piker? Right, yeah. And and you can see and it almost feels like with like part of it is cultural capital, but especially when it comes to these cults and stuff, I also it also almost feels like uh like um like front groups, like they're also in the same way you might hide capital through a fake corporation for a while, and then you blow up the corporation and you take out the capital. You know, um I haven't I haven't gotten to the point yet in the in my next EM series, but like something very similar happens there that happened in Eranos, and that is that the useful information was largely harvested and taken away. And it was done in a very different way, like it was it was done basically through government bureaucracy and uh through um the the Braunfans to a degree did manage to get away with some of it and actually open up another school in France where they continue to do a little bit of weird experiments, but like but it does feel like okay, we we build this thing, it accumulates this psychic capital for a while, and we harvest what we can out of it, and then like we blow it up because we always knew we were gonna blow it up, the same way like you know, Eranos kind of had that end date explicitly built into it before it even started.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:55

Uh, which is yeah, there's so many I'm thinking of uh the macamat of Al Hariri and the Book of Charlatans of Al Zaubardy, all the different tricks and and rackets that people get up to there, you know. I think that's the kind of Silk Road era ancestors of this bourgeois practice. This is like the bourgeois lifestyle, creating these invisible castles, illusion, castles of illusion that will suddenly vanish. Uh, just like in Orlando Furtioso, uh that happens several times, you know. Someone's living in a in a beautiful castle and it suddenly vanishes and they're left. Uh it was actually just the middle of a swamp. That experience means very much the bourgeois. You just you've been hit by a smooth criminal, you've been hit by a bourgeois individual. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:53

Yeah. No, I mean, I think there's parallels, you know, you could draw even to something like, say, like the Knights Templar or something like that. Like it was the same, you know, oh yeah, move a ton of money, move some ideology through, and then we're gonna have a trial and we're gonna, you know, execute some people that are probably patsies, and that's the European savages picking up that tech.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:17

Yeah, European savages started to to learn from the Silk Road, the sons of the Silk Road.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:24

That's what that was about. Out of curious, I and this might be too uh big of a question to ask you, like without any preparation, but I know you're really into paleo parapolitics and going into the past. Do you have a point you think were like this? I know you've talked about like you know, old tribal secret societies and stuff like that, but like is there a point where you think that that kind of build something knowing you're gonna destroy it and harvesting the psychological capital, like yeah, going yeah, that particular aspect of it, uh I was gonna say 30,000 years ago to 50.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:08

I mean, there's uh like when did secret societies start? When did when do we start to see like feasting societies, evidence for that kind of thing? You know, there's like caves where there are bear bears that seem to have been ceremonially consumed by a small group of people in a close, intimate, ritual setting. Uh that's like 50,000 years old, probably. But even the dating of those sites is a little bit controversial. Uh, but as for like when does it what about this demolitioning? I mean, there's a lot in Quakywok literature. I'm reading Boaz's collection of Quakiudle tales, which is the main thing that you have there. Um there's a lot of like reset, the time kind of gets reset in in those stories. And I suppose you could read that that way. I don't know. It's always tricky, right? We have to kind of question what we think we can. Maybe we shouldn't read those things in the exact same way as Aranos, but I don't know. If you put on your complete just anthropologist hat, you could see like uh this hero went, he left his family at home. Is that quite the same thing? There are these reset moments where it's like this guy did a thing and he came back and all his people were just dead. But then, oh, he actually just revived them and used got this water of life from this place, and so then they came back and then they actually went to this other place and created a new thing. There is this sense of extraordinary mobility, and if you kind of squint your eyes at it, um, which again is maybe a dangerous thing to do, you can uh imagine like this world where people are freely reinventing and remaking society quite freely in this way that is quite nice and actually maybe quite liberated because you can always move to a new place and you can always start over. So that's a part of the original kind of human freedom and maybe the kind of a good society that we want, you know, because like you can always move, you're never stuck in one place, you're never stuck in one worldview, you can always reimagine your worldview. Like that's the really good, maybe working class uh side of that equation. But you know, yeah, when you get to a ruler, a ruler becomes maybe the only one who can do that, you know, and the people who are stuck in these cults that have had their psyches damaged by these cults uh by Nexium or something or by Carl Jung, they can't start over, they can't get out of the dank dungeon that they've psychologically had built around them. Yeah.

unknown 1:18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:03

Whereas I think a quak person could always remake their world and they could be like, oh, this didn't work out. We go this other place, we're gonna make another structure.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:13

And that that's uh that's uh that's super interesting. I I you know um I'm not uh I'm not familiar with uh that specific piece of writing you're talking about or about their culture, but I could definitely say that like in my own psyche and my own life, uh I am a hundred percent on board with like what the healthiest things you can do is be willing to like tear everything down that you thought was real. If it if you find out that you know you've you've gone down a path where it doesn't where you're where you have foundational issues that are not, you know, uh that are warping whatever your whatever you know uh your view of reality is. And I do think so many people uh you know get they do they get stuck uh in I mean it is cliche as it is, the idea of intelligence being able to hold two contradictory thoughts at once, I think is like so important and something I think that's been so stripped from the West, like you know, just talking to a lot of regular working class people, it's like they're so dug in and emotionally reactive to anything that might cause you question your foundations in America today, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:47

Yeah, we speaking of the French man, the French 80-year-old man who uh decided that it really popped off right now, you know. Uh, aren't we sitting around waiting, uh invested so deeply in so many things that we know are about to fall apart? And it's kind of like, when do I sell? When do I cut my losses? Right? We have so many sunk cost fallacies. Everybody's living under a mountain of sunk cost fallacies, I think. And uh boomer, soccer bomb, fake worlds.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:22

I'm sure you feel it in Japan too, but in America, I think that's definitely a contradiction I am aware of all the time, where I am like, this thing needs to go, uh it is fundamentally bad. Uh but what does that mean for the house that I own? What does that mean for my material comforts, you know? Like in there is, you know, always these of like yeah, these these contradictions that are that are there that make it that you really have to find a way to let go if things are ever going to be better. Because any vision of the future where things do get better means a lot of things that are superficially important to you or that you base your life around are going to have to alter.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:16

Yep. I think that kind of flexibility is maybe like a first step in a lot of ways. So maybe that's a takeaway for today, dear listener. If you find uh you're able to cultivate a more supple kind of mobile psychology that's able to leave the burning house, as the Buddhist parable from the Lotus Sutra says.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:42

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:45

That's a great way to go. So yeah, Eranos. There was uh was did you have anything about the Amichi di Eranos? That was one of the many splinter groups. What other splinter groups were? Did you have more about that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:02

Um, I really kind of I dug into the uh you know where it where it went, uh, where a lot of the archives went and went into that one particular Splinter group.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:18

Uh in, you know, like we talked about the Lucy's trust before, but no, like I would love to hear uh what is I don't know too much, I don't know anything other than what Hawkel gives, but in the 90s there's this other parallel track, the Amici di Eranos, the Friends of Eranos, right? Uh that involves like the a family called the Hugelman family, and somebody called Eric Hornung, uh, and Thilo Schabert. Thilo Schabert provisionally took over the running. Uh and uh there were a number of interventions from the audience, some of them quite embarrassing, apparently. Maybe they were a little bit more on the audience participation side, which Olga Frube had always hated. She wanted only the presenters to speak at any time. Yes, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:17

Do you know what time period did you say what time period does it say? The nineties, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:23

The nineties and then by ninety nineteen ninety nine the Amici di Eranos were beset by quarrels. There was no proper Eranos meeting in 2000. You have uh you know, there's there's at least two different groups, right? I think everything we've talked about up to this point was not the Amichi, but the the other one.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:46

Um this would totally make it.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:53

Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:55

I was just gonna say this almost to me, uh given what we know about you know uh what was uh rightsima in the obsess kind of the you know very insular obsessions and then the kind of corporate takeover in the early 2000s, part of me wonders if like based on his description, I'm like this might just be when like the real uh um the like real kind of eccentric believers maybe were hanging out in that area because it would have been pretty financially ruined at that point, like uh almost like some sort of psychic, you know, like house that's kind of been run down and people are doing drugs in it now, like trying to think, like like a psychic trap house or something like that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:51

The trap the the Aranos trap house is what is that how we see the Amichi d'Aranos?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:57

Maybe yeah, I mean that'd be my I've just throwing an idea out there, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:02

Um these things these things there is a principle or uh a pattern by which these things degenerate over time into that sort of a that sort of a thing, and that would be mainly then populated by the people who got stuck. Right. Yeah stuck in that thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:22

And Aranos is interesting too because I think partly because it had such a pedigree, like a lot of these places we were talking about that are similar, that do self-destruct, uh, they're people that suffer serious consequences, and they're usually the middle managers, they're usually you know uh people that are expendable, uh, and you don't see that really in Airnos. Everybody kind of walks away clean from it for the most part.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:52

Like well, it isn't, and it I don't know of all kinds of really intense uh things happening of the sort of that you see in Naxium or something. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:05

Yeah, they keep it very they're very abstract, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:08

At this level, it's it's kind of a meta secret society for all the all the lower ones, you know. This is like a command tower, sort of just dealing with theory in general, theory and you know, production of archetypes or whatever. It's the archetype factory.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:27

Yeah, that's true. Like the you could say the same thing about something like the Stanford Research Institute, where you could be like, oh, there's a a lot of these ideas were disseminated there, but yeah, there's not a lot of bodies buried here necessarily. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a very good way of putting it.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:43

Yeah. This is the this is the factory where the larger bourgeois uh psychological weapons are sort of designed. Right. And then where those psychological weapons are implemented is a different place.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:00

Yeah, no, yeah, it's where the nukes are developed. It's not where they're tested and dropped.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:06

Yeah, exactly. Well, that this has been uh wonderful uh adventure that I got to go on with you here, Scott, through this uh this crazy uh organization known as Eranos, which helped to lead us to our current moment and to all the the kinds of crazy things that you discuss in places like your Nexium series on the Dust Light Archives. Right. So before we wrap up for now, uh pending further series on you know different interesting figures that we met, like Talbot Mundi, like Furio Yeese, and like uh Carl Jung, of course. Um for now, for more on Carl Jung, uh there's uh Return of the Repressed has some cool stuff. Marcus is getting into him already there. Uh, but is there anything else that we wanted to leave listeners with right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:05

Um not that I can think of. Just I have had such a blast doing this with you. I really appreciate uh you know you taking your time and us getting to delve into this. It's been eye-opening for me in so many ways because this was a group before we started researching, I had not even heard of in their uh I would say uh pretty essential parapolitical um uh subject. So like more than I would have ever guessed before I started. And uh yeah, no, I I I've loved your podcast for a long time, so I meant to log in to be on here and do this with you. I can't wait to do those other series in the future.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:50

Can't wait to get back.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:54

Because there's more galaxies, even just uh when it comes to these this kind of ruling class secret society. Of course, uh, we mentioned Esseline. You know, other people have done more work on Esalin. Uh there's Japanese equivalents, the Gang Yosha, right? The Mysterious Ocean Society, the Black Dragon Society would be ones you could get into. Somebody should. It'll probably I I should one of these days, right? There's way more to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:24

So for now, um, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. I was just gonna say you just just as a last thing, just uh, you know, um, because like I said, I have listened to you for a long time, and I really do appreciate that you uh I really think you're doing something here that like like us being able to explore this exists because you are on a frequency that nobody else is particularly doing, and I think it's so awesome that I learn so much listening to your podcast because it's oftentimes about stuff that I hit don't even have a baseline knowledge of, and like so I think you know that it's really it's really great what you're doing. I hope you keep doing it for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:10

That means a lot to hear, man. Thank you, my friend. I appreciate it. And I will, I'll be here, I'll I'll go down with the ship. Um, I'm just I'll keep on rocking at whatever pace I'm able to keep going, you know. But wonderful. Thanks for helping me. Thank you for for helping me to, you know, this really does um motivate me to keep her going and kind of keep getting into more and more things here. So I really appreciate it. And thank you for it it continuing to expand the world of working class thought and human human thought, right? Because that's what this is about at the end of the day. We all um this is humanity uh sort of doing our research and development, how to stay ahead of the the enemies of humanity that that want to privatize, for example, the human ability to create worlds and to create universes and archetypes and right uh and to make dank dungeons instead. So yeah, get ready to break out of the dank dungeon and get ready to create uh beautiful, expansive, free worlds for yourself because I'm Fergal Schmudlock, and I have anointed you with the anointing of the kingless generation.