The Reverse Engineering AI Blueprint

What if the trick behind Amazon wasn't a stroke of genius… just a spreadsheet and some reverse engineering? 

Joe Downs and Peter Swain show how AI turns that same Bezos move into the ultimate apprenticeship. 

Stuck dental hygienist dreaming of a skincare brand? Teacher hunting for summer income? Business owner watching a competitor quietly win? Same process. 

Joe and Peter break down how to use AI tools to build a sixty-day course on any skill, uncover side hustle ideas you've never considered with one "Twenty Questions" prompt, and respectfully borrow the playbooks of companies like SoFi. 

No connections required. No courage required. Not a dime spent. 

If you've ever looked at someone else's success and thought "I could never do that," this episode was made for you, because financial freedom starts with paying attention.

Listen For

4:18 How does AI let you apprentice under a ten-out-of-ten mentor instead of whoever will take you?

7:30 What are the three ways to turn AI into your personal mentor — starting tonight?

19:29 What can a Wimbledon tennis court with no lines teach you about giving AI context?

33:56 How did one question about follow-up emails expose SoFi's 26-message blueprint?

41:10 What's the exact prompt for borrowing another company's winning playbook — respectfully?

Links Mentioned

Peter's Free AI Business Audit | Storagemoguls.ai | Claude | ChatGPT

Email the “Idiots” Joe and Peter

idiots@successfulidiots.com 

Joe Downs

Website | LinkedIn | YouTube | Email Joe:joe@belroseam.com 

Peter Swain

Website | Email | LinkedIn | X

Transcript

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Peter Swain (00:00):

The wonderful thing about AI is you don't need to know how to get it done, but you do need to know where you want to end up. And if you can clearly articulate where you are and where you want to be, it can do the middle bit pretty effectively.

Joe Downs (00:20):

Before anyone knew his name, he was a senior vice president at one of the most secretive hedge funds on Wall Street. Brilliant, well paid, completely anonymous because he wasn't building anything on his own. He was just running numbers for other people's money. And then on his own time, he did something almost embarrassingly unglamorous. He made a spreadsheet, 20 rows, 20 different products he could maybe sell over this new thing called the internet. Music, software, office supplies, clothing. He wasn't dreaming up an idea, he was reverse engineering one, working backward from what a great online business would need to be true, then hunting for the one product that checked every box. Big enough market, low enough price point, no dominant player already sitting on it. More selection than any physical store could ever stock. One row in that spreadsheet checked every single box. You guessed it, books.

(01:19):

He quit the hedge fund job, drove across the country with his wife and wrote the business plan in the passenger seat. And what he'd actually done before he ever shipped a single box was reverse engineer his way to the idea instead of sitting around waiting to have one. I'm Joe Downs. With me is Peter Swain. We're just a couple of successful idiots using AI to simplify our lives and optimize our businesses. Peter, I don't need to give you an opportunity to guess who that was, do I?

Peter Swain (01:46):

If it's not Bezos, then I quit.

Joe Downs (01:49):

You do not have to quit, my friend. That is 100% true. Of course it was Jeff Bezos, but you might stumble with this one. Peter, true or false? The British didn't invent the phrase no rush at all. To be polite, they invented it as psychological warfare because nothing moves a British person faster than someone being patient with them.

Peter Swain (02:14):

True. True. Unfortunately true. Fortunately true. Yeah, it's all good if you are going to do it anyway.

Joe Downs (02:22):

You're a cheeky bunch. All right, folks, I'm excited for today. It's going to be pretty interesting. I'm sure you are after that intro because anything Jeff Bezos did, obviously we want to pay attention to. But if you've gotten anything out of this show, leave us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. A rating goes a long way. Takes 30 seconds. Subscribe while you're at it, but we appreciate a rating. Certainly helps us promote the show. So Peter, today we're going to show our listeners something people assume takes connections or courage and it takes neither. So if you're listening and you're stuck in a nine to five or you're chasing a side hustle or already running a business and you're looking for that quiet edge, you definitely want to lean in here because what we're going to talk about today is the same move for all three of those situations.

(03:08):

So Peter, getting a little philosophical for a second here. For basically all of human history, if you wanted to learn a trade, you needed an apprenticeship. Someone had to actually let you stand next to them and watch, show you what you're doing, let you try it. But if you had no access, no mentor, you're just guessing. You're on your own. So here's an example I keep coming back to. Picture a dental hygienist. I know one, good, steady job, but there's a hard ceiling on it. Same routine every day. And the person I know, she's followed a handful of skincare creators online for years and always thought, could never do that. I could never do what they do. Why not is the question I'm asking. So Peter, walk me through it like you're talking directly to her. She's stuck. She's curious about something completely outside of her lane.

(04:01):

She's a dental hygienist and she has no idea where she even start with this watching these skincare products and how they're being sold online. So how does reverse engineering actually get someone like her unstuck if that's a passion she wants to pursue?

Peter Swain (04:18):

Well, that's a great question. And I think not only unstuck, but Joe, I would hazard to say this is actually an upgrad from the traditional apprenticeship as well. The reason I say that is let's say I wanted to learn finance and I was going to go and work underneath somebody for six months to a year to learn how to run a hedge fund. Just as a hypothetical. There is no way that Ray Dalio is going to say, "Yeah, Pete, just show up at my office on Monday. I'll happily take you under my wing for a year." It's not going to happen. The person I would be able to access in order to go through that aprenticeship and mentorship would be a six out of 10, a five out of 10. So I'm not even going to get to access the 10 out of 10 to model them in that way.

(05:09):

Whereas what we can do with AI, because AI knows everything that was ever said, ever read, ever done, ever written, is we can choose who we're going to mentor behind, who we're going to apprentice behind. So where do you want to take it? Do you want to take it more into what would we type? Where would we go with it? Or kind of more high level? Where are we at?

Joe Downs (05:32):

High level. I think you and I both agree that, and even some feedback from folks is prompts and technical stuff for great here and there, but let's keep this to the magic. You just said something that, and by magic, I mean the inspiration, because you and I both know you can just ask AI how to do this stuff. But I think the power of what we do here is inspiring people to think about it in those ways. So let's keep it high level. But you just something that I didn't even consider when I was working on this show, which is the quality of the person that you could shadow. You're right. You're not getting Ray Dalio. I think you're being generous at a six. You're getting an upstart. You're getting someone who broke away from another hedge fund to start their own. That's going to be your opportunity.

(06:24):

And there's going to be some learning that you wouldn't get from Ray Dalio there, like startup, how to start these things up and all the trials and tribulations you go through. And we've gone a long way from a dental hygienist here to a hedge fund.

Peter Swain (06:40):

Well, the reason I went to Ray Dalio, because I don't know any skincare creators, so I can't use the EG of the name.

Joe Downs (06:48):

No, I'm only making a joke about how the 180 we just went there. But you're right. And the same would probably be true in the skincare, but I don't even know how you marry... I don't know. I don't know anyone in the skincare product business, but

Peter Swain (07:01):

It's like Ray Dalio, Warren Buffet, da da da. But you're right.

Joe Downs (07:06):

Who would you be able to shadow? Who would you be able to be an apprentice underneath? And you're right, it wouldn't be anyone you'd want to be necessary unless you were wanting to know how hard it was to start it up, which again, has merits to it. So to answer your question, let's keep it high level. How would you go about... And let's take it back to the dental hygienist. How would you go about... What's step one? So I'm following... In my head, I wouldn't follow -

Peter Swain (07:30):

I've got three choices.

Joe Downs (07:32):

Okay.

Peter Swain (07:32):

Yeah. I've got three choices for you to consider of different directions you could use to do this. Number one, you could ask AI to write you a 60-day course on insert blank here. So you would probably say something like, "I know this, I know this, this is my background, this is my degree, this is my experience. And in the next 60 days, I want to be X. Teach me everything and anything, one lesson a day, include podcasts, books I should read, articles I should read, videos, put a quiz in there to make it fun. And literally just give yourself a 60-day, 90-day curriculum on how to do this. That would be choice number one. Choice number two would be to say, I want you, so this is the AI, I want you to pretend to be insert blank. Walk me through why you do this, how this, what this, where this, or choice three would be to ask the AI to pretend to be that person and be your advisor.

(08:38):

So as you go to achieve something or do something, you would ask it literally as if it was a colleague that was sitting next to you that you could ask questions. There are multiple ways to do this, but the underpinning thing to remember is that AI can be asked to synthesize being somebody else.

Joe Downs (08:59):

All three of those are brilliant. I think number one is probably going to make the most sense for most people, but it probably depends on your entry point. I like number one the best because I still have the hygienist in my head who has never been a business person before an entrepreneur. She's just had a job. And the reason I like number one for her at her entry point is because part of that course would be basic business startup, how to form an LLC, where to start look. But then I was thinking, and I love this, not only teach me the business and how to be in the business, but wouldn't you add qualifiers to it? I want to end up selling this product, this product, and this product, because then it has to analyze those products and their journeys. And if there's enough public information, mistakes they made, challenges they had, successes, shortcuts to it.

Peter Swain (10:02):

Somebody gave me this the other day, which I thought was genius. And what they said was the wonderful thing about AI is you don't need to know how to get it done, but you do need to know where you want to end up.

Joe Downs (10:14):

Yeah.

Peter Swain (10:15):

And if you can clearly articulate where you are and where you want to be, it can do the middle bit pretty effectively. The reason I like choice one, Joe, is, and this is from, it is the second day of storage moguls being live. That's worth being mentioned. Congratulations, Joe.That's cool. Thank you. I'm super proud of that. But I remember a couple months ago, you said in one of our meetings, "Oh, we're going to do X, Y, Z." And I said, "Why are you going to do that? " And you go, "Well, that's what you do. " And I go, "No, stop. That's what I did two years ago that I'm still trying to undo today. But it's now in my community. The problem, if you say copy this person," is the AI is going to go, "Okay, great. Let's copy that person." And that person in, let's say skincare, for example, maybe they just got fined $100,000 because they didn't do the correct testing and the correct labeling because they were too quick to go to market with a new product.

(11:20):

And as a dental hygienist, you don't even know that then there's this thing called labeling and testing and grading. Whereas the course method is going to teach a best practice. And then I would dovetail after the course into option two or option three of like, okay, now I have a basic grounding in skincare products and the business of skincare. I now want to mimic this person. You have chosen the one subject. I literally can't even mention a name. Oh, she's going to make this fantastic.

Joe Downs (11:56):

Two guys talking about skincare products is not making for a great show, I'm guessing.

Peter Swain (12:02):

It's great. Yeah. We're not exactly like two 19-year-old guys from LA, are we? It's note to self for future planning.

Joe Downs (12:11):

Stay on point. Stick with sports. So what's interesting is... Now come on, we got this. Mary Kay, there you go. There's one. We just lost

Peter Swain (12:20):

Again. Jamie Lana.

Joe Downs (12:22):

It's the second time we lost half of our female audience. So I just though of something as you were saying this. Yes, you want to mimic all that, but I don't know how many episodes ago we at one point ended up talking about finding the gaps and the holes in your competitors. I think you said your option one was create a 60-day course, which it was an arbitrary number you picked out. It could be 90, it could be 30.

Peter Swain (12:51):

So I'm going to disagree and I'm going to -

Joe Downs (12:55):

You wouldn't add on while you're at it? What could they be doing

Peter Swain (12:58):

Better? Yes and no. No, I wouldn't.

Joe Downs (13:02):

All right.

Peter Swain (13:03):

Okay. And the reason why is AI does not yet have a layer of discernment. It's not very good yet at doing that. So in the example where we're talking about a dental hygienist that has never been in the business of skincare and never been an entrepreneur, I would suggest that the right approach is to learn how to do it the way other people do it before you start looking for the difference in how you are going to do it. I think that for example, going at storage mobiles, the reason you were able to see the gap in the market or you could have used AI to find the gap in the market is because you understand the topic. You understand it end to end and you've been an entrepreneur for decades. So you can look at the feedback it gives you and go, "No, I'm not doing that.

(13:59):

That's a really stupid idea. I don't really want to do that. That's not such a good idea." I think what I heard, and maybe it's not what you said, is when I used to run software companies, people used to come in and say, "Oh, I don't want to do the agile methodology," which is the common way software's done. And my answer was always, "How about we do it the way that's had a hundred million hours of innovation? And once we've mastered doing it the way that everybody else does it, then maybe we can be arrogant enough to think that we can change it. But let's start with just doing it the way everybody else does it. Because if you launch a skincare product and you master the art of social media and TikTok shop, you could do a million dollars this year selling the same product that everybody else is selling in the same way that everybody else is selling it.

Joe Downs (15:00):

All right. Sound advice, I stand corrected. Get up and running, get your sea legs. Then you'll either use AI or you'll see the gaps in the market yourself is what you're saying. All right, fair enough. I don't mind being corrected. That's pretty good advice. Otherwise, you're biting off more than you can chew. Okay. So that's someone, the hygienist who doesn't even know yet what she wants to build. What about someone who already has 30 side hustle ideas and can't get any of them past the starting line? An elementary school teacher, you feel you're comfortable with them? You have kids in school. You can

Peter Swain (15:39):

Speak. We both went to school. If you went beyond high school, I'd be a bit lost because I didn't do that. But elementary, I did so we can do that. Yeah.

Joe Downs (15:47):

They got summers off. Once something actually pays during the break. So let's say teachers noticed a few independent online tutors who've rebuilt, I don't know, or not rebuilt, built waiting lists, but no idea how they did it. Where does that person start?

Peter Swain (16:06):

This is actually a great example because you're actually describing my mum.

Joe Downs (16:09):

Okay.

Peter Swain (16:10):

My mom is just retiring as we speak from public school teaching and is asking me exactly these questions like, "Well, how would I become

Joe Downs (16:19):

A change?"

Peter Swain (16:19):

I'm in your whelhouse

Joe Downs (16:20):

Here.

Peter Swain (16:21):

Perfect in the wheelhouse. So the first set of questions I asked her to ask AI was to clarify what is it she wants. Are you trying to have a full-time job? Do you want to do online stuff? Do you want to do in - person stuff? Do you want to run retreats? Do you want to work with rich kids? Do you want to work with poor kids? Do you want to work with eight-year-olds or 18-year-olds or 82-year-olds? The first thing I would say to anyone who's in this stage, which is first of all, go you. I love the fact that you're listening. I love the fact you're about to go on this journey because it's going to be fun for you, is just to believe that there is a very sustainable income in whatever your perfect version is. Whether you want to do retreats or physical training or virtual training or you want to work with eigh-year-olds or 18-year-olds, there is a model in that that can earn you two, $300,000 a year, most guaranteed.

(17:24):

So don't start that exercise by working out how other people do it. Work out how you want to do it. So it's kind of similar to what we just said, Jov. It's the where are you? Where do you want to be? And I think a lot of people in this phase could be quite unclear as to where they want to be because they've never done it before. So that would be my first piece of advice of I work on AI to go, "No, my perfect version of this would be helping 13-year-olds just before exam season in intense periods on the summer holidays in a four-week physical environment. Okay, great. Then we can ask the AI to build. Second part to it would be build the business plan, build the project plan. How would you realistically go from being the elementary school teacher that's only free in the summer to doing this?

(18:21):

What would that look like? That's where I'd

Joe Downs (18:23):

Go. Before we move on from that, I'm sitting here thinking, I think it's been a while and I want to remind the listener how important context is. So you gave in that first what we'll call... It's funny is you have me not even wanting to say the word prompt anymore, but in that first conversation with AI, whatever tool you're using, you laid out some context. Y just did a second ago. But I want to remind listener that that's probably not enough. You probably also need to go into more details like I want to make this much. I don't want to work this much. I only want to work on Monday, Wednesday, Friday. What are some other important high level context that needs to be shared with AI so that you're getting the full gamut of advice back or optionality?

Peter Swain (19:29):

I'm sure the US has a similar concept, but in the UK we have the CRB check, which is the Criminal Records Bureau. So if you want to work with children, you have to be registered with the CRB. So even at the very basic level, who are you qualified to actually teach is a huge part of this equation. How technically savvy are you? So when AI comes back and says you should build your own website, is that something that you can do? Or does the plan need to involve hiring somebody to do that? Joe, I watched an advert on TV the other day for Wimbledon from IBM and it was the best way to explain context ever. And it was a game of doubles in tennis, but without any of the lines. So none of the court markings were there. So they were playing tennis. It was a real game of tennis.

(20:28):

And the umpire's making calls as to that was out, this is in. And the players are trying to argue with the umpire as to which calls are right and which calls are wrong and where they should be positioned on the pitch. And there's no lines. None of the court markings are there. And the voiceover in the background is from obviously the very stereotypical voice, but the voice is saying whenever one picks up AI, they talk about prompts and da, da, da, da, da. But they forget about the importance of context. And as they're talking, the lines are drawing into the court. And to me, it was the best example ever of going, well, you can't even say whether that ball was wide or that serve was short unless the lines are there. It was the same players, the same sport, the same ball, the same court, the same rackets, but without the lines on the grass, the game doesn't make sense.

(21:30):

And I though it was one of the best examples of context of what are the constraints you're asking the AI to design next to? Do you live in a village with six people? In which case, this whole idea that you have of doing it in person is probably going to be a little bit more tricky. Can you drive? Okay, you live in a village with six people and you can't drive. This online thing is probably a better direction to go and here's the reasons why. So if people struggle with the word context, think instead of the word constraints. That would be a great way to -

Joe Downs (22:10):

And can I add to the flip side of that? And that's excellent advice, but part of the setup of this question was what if you don't know what you want to do? So constraints critical, but also what can you do? What are your skills? What are your hobbies? Do

Peter Swain (22:28):

You think there's anybody, do you think there really is, and maybe this is just me, but do you think that there isn't a teacher around in our example that if you were to say, what would your ideal version be? Forget what you've heard. You asked the question, would you rather do real world events or virtual events? Would you rather teach adults or kids? Surely people know the answer to that question if they're already a teacher. Surely. So they do know what they want to do. And I think you'd agree with this. The most important thing in the game in all these games is momentum. Whether we're talking AI or not, building towards something you're truly excited to build, something that's really juicy for you is going to give you the momentum to push through the harder pieces of the equation. So that's why my first question would always be, well, tell me what you really want.

(23:29):

Tell me what your ideal day looks like. Is it working one hour or is it working eight? Is it working with adults? Is it working with kids? Because our exam at the age of 16 is called the GCSEs. I probably couldn't find an amount of money to pay my mom to go and teach 16-year-olds again. She is done.

(23:51):

It's a hard age to teach kids and she's done it for 30 years, but adults that are coming back to the subject, I think she might really enjoy.

Joe Downs (24:03):

I totally agree with that. I guess where I was going with what are your skills? What else can you do? And this may be different for your mom at her age, but let's say you're a 35-year-old teacher and yeah, sure, you could tutor kids and you would know, do you want to tutor young kids or old kids? Yes, I 100% agree. You already know you are good at and like working with middle school versus high school. What if you also are an exceptional tennis player? Just go back to that example.

Peter Swain (24:35):

I get you. I see you. So the stuff that you haven't even thought could be put into the same bucket.

Joe Downs (24:42):

That's the context. So I'm thinking you tell AI everything you love and can do and wanted to do and let it come up with ideas for you. Certainly you know you could fall back on tutoring and you could probably... We already talked about that, how to figure

Peter Swain (24:58):

Out how

Joe Downs (24:58):

To build your own tutoring.

Peter Swain (25:00):

So you're talking like you could do sports camps in Marseille type thing? Yeah, sure. Whoa, I never even though of

Joe Downs (25:06):

That. Great point. Willing to travel. Teacher willing to travel could be you live in England and you're willing to do a sports camp in the US. What's the inspiration behind, and maybe this is a prompt, maybe you need AI to get it out of you, but what's the inspiration? How do you have AI help you? Remember the

Peter Swain (25:33):

Scene from

Joe Downs (25:34):

Jerry McGuire? Help me help you.

Peter Swain (25:35):

Let's do it with a prompt. Remember just what we just said of as long as you know where you are and where you want to end up, AI can help you on the middle bit. So your prompt on this one is going to look something like, "I'm an elementary school teacher and I'm looking to work out what I could do next or what I could do in the summer." In order to do that, in order to come up with something truly unique and amazing and awesome and juicy and yummy, and I would use words like that, really quite descriptive words. I want to work out where my secret sauce in this whole thing could lie. So that's the first part of the prompt. The second part of the prompt then is I want you to ask me questions about my talents, but I don't know what I don't know.

(26:19):

So we are going to play 20 questions. You're going to ask me a question, I'm going to answer. And then when I answer, you're going to ask me a follow-up question. And your job is to find the thing that I love that we could co-opt into this. Something like that. And it will go, okay, great. Tell me about your childhood. It will start there most likely and it'll just develop from there.

Joe Downs (26:47):

That's exactly where I wanted you to take this because we don't know what we don't know. And in this example, we've been talking about an elementary school teacher, but we could insert, I work at a power plant nine to five for PECO and I've got a pension, I've got two more years and then I get to retire. Well, now I got to do something else. Or I hate my job and I'm looking for that next thing based on this other skillset I have or other skills that I have. That's the juice I'm looking for is how do we inspire people to converse with AI such that it can pull out of them what their options are or get the creative juices flowing together with AI and yourself? So thank you because that's the type of the line of questioning I want AI to ask you.

(27:40):

It could be from left field. It's going to ask you some random questions. I want it to ask you some random questions that you're thinking like, where the heck is this going? But it's AI extracting from you the information it needs to be able to say, "Hey Pete, I know you've done this your whole career, but did you know you're the perfect guy to start a business who can teach ballerinas how to become astronauts, pulling back on an old segment conversation? That's the magic I'm looking for out of Ad AI.

Peter Swain (28:14):

Yeah. No, I think this is a fantastic angle for people to take it down because as you've been talking about it, I've been kind of mapping it in my own brain. And if I was to start everything again from scratch, like I had no business, then I would find something to do with sports trading cards and AI because that's where my passion and my curiosity converge. And I can't remember the book, Being Superhuman, Becoming Superhuman. I'm trying to find the title, but there is a lot of study around flow state of where does flow state occur and it occurs when passion and curiosity combine. When you're in that, time does collapse. It does become truly beyond fun. It becomes all - consuming when you are in, for me, AI and sports cars.

Joe Downs (29:10):

Really, you'd be doing something that you're just absolutely passionate about and it doesn't feel like work. And that's the ultimate goal because we're all going to end up, not all, a lot of people are going to end up, as you've said many times, as solopreneurs, either by chance or by choice. So why not start now finding out what those options are and start building towards that? There's a little bit of be your future self now in this as well in that if you want to end up somewhere in five years, if you want to take a time machine and look into the future and see who Peter Swain is or Joe Downs is, you need to start doing that now if you are going to like what you see. So why not harness the power of AI ahead of everybody else? You're listening Listening to this show, they aren't, and start building that future for yourself now.

(30:03):

Point of clarification before we move on, unless you have something brilliant to add.

Peter Swain (30:07):

Steven Cutler, The Art of Impossible speaks about this. That was the book I was trying to remember.

Joe Downs (30:12):

Steven Cutler, The Art of Impossible. I'll have to check that out. Thank you. Point of clarification. When you say sports trading cards, do you mean baseball cards with other sports on them?

Peter Swain (30:19):

Yes.

Joe Downs (30:21):

Just wanted our US listener to understand what you were talking about. All right. So that's for the person trying to get out and bring into... And by the way, obviously the words we didn't say in that whole segment were you're going to and AI is going to help you reverse engineer how to become that person. But that's for the person who's looking for the summer job, the next gig, get out of your current gig, whatever it is. But what about the person listening, Peter, who already has business and they're not stuck and they're not hunting for a hustle. They love their business. Maybe they're trading sports cards. God, that pains me to say that way. And they just know somebody out there is doing something better than they are. And they'd love to know what it is, maybe quietly, maybe not, who knows, but without hiring a consultant or admitting to anyone they're behind.

(31:16):

So Peter, I think this is actually what got me thinking about the whole topic this week. I kept seeing the same idea from a totally different direction. Someone in the AI space walked through how he reverse engineered a random YouTube channel's entire aproach and it ended up pulling or he ended up pulling I think almost 12 grand a month in just from taking apart why it worked. And it got me thinking less about YouTube and more about regular businesses. So here's one I want you to run with. And if you so choose because we've already discovered that skincare products is not our forte. So in my example, I was going to have you run through an HVAC company. You maybe notice arrival across town as less cancellations or whatever. They're doing something better than he is. Feel free to insert a different business. I know in the green room we were laughing about a TV show that I shouldn't let you go here because it did start in the UK first, but if you want, take it away.

Peter Swain (32:18):

Well, I think it feels to me very, very similar to what we were saying of we're using. So what we have to remember, AI is essentially a math model. It's a math model of how all of the words relate to all the other words. And that might not help people or it might help people. But what I'm trying to get to is if we can choose which piece of the model that we access, then we can model it. So I mean, literally we can model. So if we're looking at somebody else's process, we can describe that process and we can ask it to explain to us why that's working better than what we're working. Now we could use it to just to completely copy. Good artists, copy great artists steal. We could just say, "I just want their process. Thanks very much. This is what I could observe from it.

(33:11):

" But I think a more useful answer potentially is to understand their model of like, "Well, why are they doing that? Because if you can gain the underlying skill, then it can apply to multiple areas of your business. Tell me why they're doing it that way and I'm not, because you referred to the guy that reverse engineered a 12,000 a month YouTube channel. I'd give you another example of someone that does closer to 10 million a month. And his name is Dan Martel. You put any of the topics of his videos into YouTube, you will find one about four to six weeks before with exactly the same topic and often with exactly the same script.

(33:56):

The thing about previously, before the world of AI, everyone's playbook is on display. I was on the board of a finance, a lending company, Joe, and when I walked in, I was like, "How many follow-ups do we send people after they make a request for finance?" And they said, "One." And I'm like, "Okay, so can you go and register with SoFi for me and make a lending request?" And they're like, "Why?" And I'm like, "Because I'm guessing that SoFi send more than one." Because the acquisition cost of a lead is hundreds and hundreds of dollars in that industry. So I'm guessing they don't just let you go, "Joe, you've changed your mind. Nevermind. Better luck next time." I'm guessing they hammer you. And the answer was 26 messages in four days. If you go and apply for a loan with SoFi, you get 26 messages.

(34:56):

Well, you did. And so I went back in the next weekly meeting and they went, "So this is the answer. So what do you think we should do and how often do you think we should message them?" I'm like, "So SoFi do 26 over four days?" And they're like, "Yeah." They're like, "So how often do you think we should message them?" I'm like, "26 messages over four days maybe." They're like, "Yeah, but how many should we do? "

Joe Downs (35:18):

25, 27.

Peter Swain (35:21):

If someone like SoFi has spent millions of dollars working out the most accurate sequence, why are we trying to reinvent this? Let's do it, run with it exactly as we said earlier, and then we'll change it to make it our own.

Joe Downs (35:36):

I imagine... I'm going to say something and I'm going to let you correct it. I imagine that an entrepreneur feels no guilt about copying a big company like SoFi in whatever the SoFi of their industry is.

Peter Swain (35:51):

I don't think they feel guilt, but I think that there's some arrogance inside it sometimes.

Joe Downs (35:57):

Oh, I can imagine people feeling guilty about now if you're a small business owner and you... I could see people feeling guilty about copying their crosstown rival and also a weirdness about it. So is it copying or is it studying?

Peter Swain (36:17):

Well, I think it's two things, Joe. I think first of all, and I'm really grateful for the distinction. First of all, I think it's transient. And second of all, I think it's studying. So what I mean by that is I'm not suggesting that anybody should just go, "Oh, that's how they do it. We're going to do it exactly the same and we are complete." I'm saying that that's the first step of put your 20... Because the small finance company that I just said on SoFi are not the same company. They do not have the same customers. They do not have the same products. So the 26 answer is not the right answer for the small company, but it's a much better answer than the answer we currently have, which is somebody just put, sure you don't want some money, click here. That was not a good answer.

(37:04):

So let's start with a upgrading of our problem. Tony Robbins once said, and I think it's a great phrase, business is easy if you constantly swap a worse problem for a better class of problems. Just have a better problem. So your bad problem is we're not converting business. A better problem is we stole SoFi's communication protocol. We borrowed it, we studied it, we mirrored it, mimicked it, whichever word sits better with somebody. But I'm not suggesting stay there. I'm saying once you've deployed that, you look at the data, you look at your intuition, and then you make it your own. Then you increase it, then you work with it. But it's the starting of the canvas. There's very, very few artists, musicians, poets that truly do something unique. Because I remember watching an interview with Prince once and he labeled the inspirations for each of his songs.

(38:05):

He's like, "Yeah, this has elements of this and this has pieces of this and this has pieces of this. " They're certainly his own at that point. But why would you walk into something like entrepreneurship and just go, "I'm just going to make all this up from scratch." Start with as a basis, a best case practice from other people because that's what... Joe, the more I think about this, the more I think of a better way to say it. That's why people do an MBA. It's the same thing. If you do an MBA, you are studying the best practice as we know it in X, Y, Z subjects from teachers that have studied it and worked with it and distilled it and gifted it to you. So to say you're not going to copy would say that an MBA is worthless. Of course you are.

(38:56):

That's a

Joe Downs (38:56):

Great

Peter Swain (38:56):

Point. This is just a quicker way to get it done.

Joe Downs (38:58):

That's a great point coupled with the fact that most of what companies do out there is probably copied or mimicked.

Peter Swain (39:09):

100%. I've said this in my space, but I haven't said it in our space. The only advantage an entrepreneur has in 2026 with the ascendance of AI is speed. It's the only every piece of knowledge is out there and is instantly and readily available. Best practice is no longer a defensible moat. Speed of execution and speed of movement is what we have left. We can't go slow. We have to go faster.

Joe Downs (39:37):

Okay. So we've given people permission to study, make what works for you, make it your own. Once you've identified that you're the small business owner, you've seen one, two, three, five, whatever competitors, and they don't even have to be in your industry. Yo could just like how somebody's funnel. I'm in funnels all the time so I can see what they look like, social media funnels. It could be from a completely different industry. You might say, "I want to copy this part of it. I like how this company is doing this part, which I can then mimic for my own business." Once you've identified what you would like to take, I'm trying to choose my words carefully because I don't want people to feel like they're taking or copying or stealing. But once you've identified what will work for you, how about that?

Peter Swain (40:28):

Respectfully imitate. How

Joe Downs (40:30):

About that? Because what's the famous saying? Imitation is the

Peter Swain (40:34):

Greatest form of flattery. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Joe Downs (40:38):

Did you know, Peter, there's a second part of that that people often forget to

Peter Swain (40:41):

Add? No, I've heard that a hundred times. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Joe Downs (40:46):

That mediocrity pays to greatness. I think that last part actually adds something to it. How did that

Peter Swain (40:54):

Get listed off by everyone?

Joe Downs (40:56):

Too hard to remember. I don't know. Once you've identified that, would you mind giving a quick prompt for the listener? Not saying this is the be all end all prompt, but how do you get started on, "Hey, I like that. I need to make a mine."

Peter Swain (41:10):

Yeah. So I'm going to use a practical example on this one. So there's a company that kind of predates Uber in the UK called Addison Lee and they shot up kind of zero to everything in a couple of years. I don't even know if they exist anymore, but they were huge at the time. But what I loved about it, Joe, is when you downloaded the app and you ordered your Addison Lee was they had a different... You got push notifications, you got SMSs, and you got emails? They used different ones to do different things. So they used a push notification, say your car with you in five minutes, but your car is coming around the corner. They used a text message because you didn't necessarily have data, but your invoice came via email. I was always really impressed with how intentional they'd been with which channel they're going to use to do what.

(42:06):

So using that as an example, you could say something like, "I work with Addison Lee and I'm really impressed with the way they use email, SMS and push notifications to do X, Y, Z at different times. This seems to work really well in this industry. Rebuild that for my business using my numbers, my words, my technology, et cetera." So you would literally just describe the thing I noticed insert blank here that's working really well for insert blank here based on what you know about my business and this is where that context becomes super important. Tell me what that would look like for me. Build me the project plan. Help me understand how I could implement that or even what would the first step be towards me doing that? Because often if you're looking at something you admire, it might be a three month, six month, nine month project to actually get there because there's often quite a few intrinsic things that you may not yet have in place that you would need in order to get that thing done.

(43:16):

If you were to say, "I admire the way Alex Homosi does his socials." Well, you're going to have to find about a million a year in order to replicate that. But you can start on the path. What would the first thing I could do to get that in my wellbeing? So that's what I'd recommend. I noticed insert blank here, it's working well for blank. Based on what you know about my business, what would my first step be?

Joe Downs (43:41):

Love it. So that's the whole trick. And folks, you're not stealing anything. I like the way you said it, you're admiring and you're really just paying attention. I also like that you said this is an AI MBA. You're just doing what you would be taught to do if you went and got an MBA. And to your point, the game

Peter Swain (44:04):

Changer - Nobody cheaper though.

Joe Downs (44:06):

Yeah. And speed is a game changer too. You don't need two years of an NBA. You've got AI and taking 20 seconds. Here's what I actually think philosophically about all this reverse engineering. It's not a shortcut. It's just what learning has always looked like. And yet it's what you actually have just pointed out with a great example of the NBA. Before we convince ourselves, everything else has to come from scratch to count. I'm someone who's guilty of that thinking I've got to come up with a new way. Well, why? The path is forged for you and it doesn't even have to be in your industry. You can take bits and pieces of things you'd see out there that other people are doing well and put them together for your business. So whether you're trying to leave the job, start the thing on the side or just quietly get better at the business you've already got and trying to improve, like we said in the get out of the gates there, it's the same move.

(45:13):

You're finally paying attention, you're understanding. We're trying to understand why other things work for others and then you're going to build your own version of it. Peter, before we close out here, do you talk about or cover any of this in your mastermind?

Peter Swain (45:31):

We cover a lot of it and we've got three years worth of content that comes in the mastermind now of just trying to help people understand how to map this AI thing and this entrepreneur thing together, which is really all we do every week. So if people want to find us, love to see them, www.peterswain.com. Hit the big button, come and join us, come and play and come and find out how to launch a skincare brand and maybe tell us about what skincare brands are whilst you're there. That'd be great.

Joe Downs (46:05):

Yeah, I was going to say maybe everything but how to launch a skincare brand. I'm just kidding. Oh,

Peter Swain (46:10):

You know what? Just stick to elementary teachers and HVAC companies.

Joe Downs (46:14):

What I've found beneficial is kind of what I said in the show. It's the inspiration. It's you learning about things that I didn't know I could do were possible. So it's really just, I don't know. If you're curious about AI, I highly recommend it. How about that? Because each week I'm constantly, the light bulbs go off, which is a problem for someone like me because I've got a squirrel brain sometimes with too many ideas. Folks, please like and subscribe. If you found anything in this show or other shows beneficial to you, and please give us a rating. Greatly appreciate it. Questions, concerns, you just want to say hello. We love the emails, idiots@successfulidiots.com. For Peter Swain, I'm Joe Downs. We are your successful idiots. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.