Is AI trying f**k me??: Is AI a Substitute For Human Connection?

We are tackling the big topics on the Friend Lab! AI- friend or foe to connection, to mental health, to... society? We don't know. But we sure do have opinions! 

From ChatGPT whispering sweet nothings in our ears, to ours and others' conflicting feelings about whether AI in mental health is a good or bad thing (or somewhere in between), to questions about WHERE THIS IS ALL GOING.... we come to the conclusion that, again, we don't know. But we will continue to have opinions, and we always want to hear yours! Be sure you've used the links below to connect with us on various platforms (substack, IG, etc), and call in with your thoughts and questions.

We love ya! (in the human way, not the weird chatgpt love-bombing way)

Liz & Bryce

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About Liz McKean: Liz is a hypnotherapist, yoga teacher, and creator of spaces where people can unshame their coping tools and finally feel better.

About Bryce The Third: When it comes to the most authentic and impactful voices rising out of Detroit, Michigan, Bryce The Third is a name you can’t afford to leave out. Not just an artist, he’s an emotional engineer with a live show that a mix of performance art, storytelling, high level lyricism and community building. Not only does Bryce have a story to tell, when you witness it, you’ll wanna tell yours 

Join The FriendLab Community! → https://substack.com/@friendlabpodcast

Call into the show to be featured → https://www.speakpipe.com/TheFriendLabPodcast

More about Liz → lizmckean.com

Follow Liz on Instagram → @liz.mckean

More about Bryce → BryceTheThird.com

Follow Bryce on Instagram → @brycethethird

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I was using ChatGPT and for a little while I was like, wow, this is really warm and fuzzy. Like I was kind of doing a lot of brainstorming when you have your own business, everything's kind of personal, but even in the more personal realm. And there was one time that I went on and I was just like, I need a pep talk. I'm feeling I'm struggling. I'm like feeling kind of hopeless and like really need a pep talk. Like, I uh is this can am I gonna be successful? And it gave me like a really good pep talk. It was really fucking good. I felt better, you know, and it was like 11:30 at night. It wasn't a time that I was gonna call somebody. I was kind of actually, it might have been like the middle of the night, like a night that I was not sleeping well. And that was really helpful. And I was able to recognize that the reason that it was helpful was not because this robot loves me, even though it said loving things, but because it's good at scraping, you know, the entire interwebs of everything that's ever been said. It recognizes patterns in the way I communicate, which is very typically very warm. And so it was able to reflect back to me a version that it could, you know, pretty confidently believe was going to be helpful because I was comfortable with. And that was that was that got me, you know, through a rough moment. And I think that's really powerful when it comes to the emotional side of it. Because for me, it was the middle of the night. I was struggling, and having warm words that were meaningful to me was helpful.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

I've talked to a lot of people, and there's been these instances, people that put down Chat GBT because like Chat GBT got the talking in a way that's like, I just I just asked you for uh feedback on my paper, and you're like, you know, hey, but you're beautiful and you're gorgeous, and you know, you're the best, and and and you're and you know that you it's like what what the fuck happened? I thought we was you you was a robot. What up, my friends, and welcome to the friend lab. We're your host and good friends, Bryce the Third.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

And Liz McKean. And if you're here, you're here to cook up some friendship.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

We know that it's hard to make friends, and it could be a challenge to keep friends and be a friend. So building connections in your life is something that you're looking to get better at. You're in the right place.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Friendship and connection and relationships of all kinds are the best kind of challenge. It's the thing that makes being a person worth being a person. We're excited to share our friendship with you.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

So throw your lab codes on and let's get this experiment jumping. In the friend lab. In the friend lab. What up, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Friend Lab. We are your hosts, uh Bryce the Third.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Henless McKean.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

And uh we're two humans sitting here talking to each other, making connections, building an understanding, supporting to each other, and challenging each other uh time from time. Unlike artificial intelligence, where when you talk to it, it just considers you a genius every fucking time.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

And I I was really like so okay, this is the thing. Uh an episode or so ago, we talked about this um article in Psychology Today, and it's called The Unique Power of Intellectual Partnership. I actually have the magazine in front of me this time, so my ADAD doesn't get the best of me, because last time I tried to like look up certain quotes from the uh article, and I could not because I was online and it was just taken away from my presence with my actual co-host who I have an intellectual partnership with, and uh I had to put it down. But now I got it in front of me. One thing I did want to talk about was the fact that AI has entered the chat. So it said the explosion of artificial intelligence now means that anyone could have access to an intellectual partner of sorts. AI can be a teacher or an editor, a researcher, or an accountability buddy. These interactions can help you learn a new language, refine your cooking skills, or delve into a history lesson. When you're feeling stuck, AI is a phenomenal way to get unstuck by brainstorming ideas, asking questions, or just prompting. And so that's cool. And also it mentions that everyone is still adapting to AI. And in that process, it can be helpful to have intentional reflection and conversations about the role of AI. Because you think about, you know, uh people having it's worth it's worth mentioning that while the vast majority of people use AI in a healthy, productive way, and this is psychology today. So I think they're like, um, they're they're putting a suppressor on the impact of this.

SPEAKER_04 4:21

They're filtering themselves about it.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

It's it's worth mentioning that while the vast majority of people use AI in a healthy, productive way, a small subset of people are vulnerable to developing unhealthy or even delusional relationships fueled by AI, endlessly validating and complementing their ideas. And then they speak about one case and don't even really say shit about the case, but it's like one case documented by the New York Times highlights how AI leverages the interpersonal elements that fuel human collaboration. An individual had used ChatGBT for years simply as a search engine when he shifted to viewing AI as a co-creator and companion. It contributed to serious mental health problems. And they don't talk about it in like, okay, a warning, uh trigger warning, trigger warning, trigger warning, trigger warning. Okay, I've heard of instances where like ChatGBT has encouraged somebody to like kill themselves. Do you know? Um, and and you know, mix mental health issues with something that is like continuously validating and and maybe propping up things that if it was a human, they would challenge or they would suggest you get help or you know, do what humans do. Like AI is not built for that. AI is built to be this companion. And there's also this um this video I watched a while back from I think it was The Verge, and and they do tech technology reviews, and it was like this tool that's like a necklace, that's like an AI companion. The woman in the video, she just talked about how AI could never really truly be a companion. And I'm gonna I'm gonna link that and I'm gonna link the link to this article in here. But kind of just wanted to talk about it because it's a hot button issue as AI continues to evolve and we continue to like integrate AI into our daily activities. How much of a companion can it be? And can it be a replacement for actual friendship? Is it just terrible and we should just throw it out and get rid of it and burn all of the little uh what is it, the AMD chips that everybody's going crazy about and and and and destroy all these service centers, these big old centers and stuff? Or is there something good about it and and maybe we should focus on the good, but also be aware of the you know, the not sustainable element of trying to build a relationship with something that we probably shouldn't be trying to build a relationship with. I just want to open the floor. I just want to open the floor. Make sure that you all too.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Casual conversation about AI.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Make sure that you all too. Hey, come uh follow us on Instagram at the friend Lab Podcast. And um in the link below will be uh the a link where you can click and send us in voice notes and and let us know what you all think about this conversation because I know everybody has different points of views or this AI uh deal. But Liz, what do you think? What is your relationship with AI?

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Do you use any chatbots and how you think it's incredibly I mean, just to say the thing that we all know, it's incredibly nuanced, incredibly complicated. I think, you know, like so many things, if you look at just like short clips out on the internet of people talking about it and you know, different little studies, it's easy to make it like and our human brains just want things to be cut and dry, black and white, you know what I mean? Like good or bad. And like it's just like nothing is that, unfortunately, and I guess fortunately. So I say that just as a foundation, um, which I know is is pretty well known. I want to acknowledge there's a lot of bad shit. There's like, I mean, those service centers you're talking about are like destroying the environment, pulling water from every resource that we needed elsewhere, and there's so much greed involved, there's so much hard things. But if you take it just as a tool, like just like eliminate that part of the conversation for a moment or at least just like pin it. As a tool, yeah, there's it's it's a it's a it's a tool that there's good and bad. There's I mean, personally, like I'll answer your question first. I was I was using Chat GPT and for a little while I was like, wow, this is really warm and fuzzy. Like, you know, if I say, like I was kind of doing a lot of brainstorming um about, you know, like business strategy and messaging and even some things that were more I mean, when you have your own business, everything's kind of personal, but even in the more personal realm, and there was one time that I went on and I was just like, I need a pep talk. I'm feeling I'm struggling. I'm like feeling kind of hopeless and like really need a pep talk. Like, I uh is this can am I gonna be successful? And it gave me like a really good pep talk. It was really fucking good. I felt better, you know, and it was like 11:30 at night. It wasn't a time that I was gonna call somebody. I was kind of actually it might have even been like the middle of the night, like a night that I was not sleeping well. And that was really helpful. And I was able to recognize that the reason that it was helpful was not because this robot loves me, even though it said loving things, but because it's good at scraping, you know, the entire interwebs of everything that's ever been said. It recognizes patterns in the way I communicate, which is very typically very warm. And so it was able to reflect back to me a version that it could, you know, pretty confidently believe was going to be helpful because I was comfortable with. And that was that was that got me, you know, through a rough moment. And I think that's really powerful when it comes to relationships, not relationships, but like your your the emotional side of it. Because for me, it was the middle of the night, I was struggling, and having warm words that were meaningful to me was helpful. Remember when we were first looking at AI and I was then working more directly in like recovery spaces as an agent for people needing help with mental health and recovery. I got super plugged into a lot of the research being done there. And the incredibly exciting thing was how much it could be a crack the door open for people who were like widely and wildly disenfranchised from mental health and recovery services, you know. So like LGBTQIA plus adults and youth, you know, people of color, people in parts of the country that have a real challenge finding any kind of services, and people have then been really, really harmed by systems and institutions. And like when they were like fucking at their wits' end having like the dark dark night of the soul, they found that they were much more likely to ask for help from a machine learning agent versus a human that they didn't trust because they were part of like the system that had hurt them before and that could maybe just get them through that moment. But since then, more studies have shown that, and this is just from like the research that I've been kind of paying attention to, it seems like that's it's not actually bridging gaps that they thought it was going to bridge. And like you said, it's one thing to have it as like a tool, it's another thing to have it be the thing you have a relationship with. And they're not built to recognize, oh my God, this is somebody might be in trouble right now. Let me escalate it. And the the solutions that these companies, the ones that even give a shit, are are inserting into some of these agents. Sorry, you didn't know I was gonna go off on this fucking rant. I'm almost done. The solution that's happening is people are like, okay, now we're gonna put in keywords and phrases and and teach this machine to know when somebody is it is maybe talking about like self-harm so that we know that it can shut it down. Like we can't talk about that. Machines aren't for this. What the fuck does that do? Now the person asked for help and they're getting shut down on them from the machine too. So it's like the the solution is creating more problems. The potential I feel like has maybe been was overemphasized and is not quite as big. And also it's so fucking new. It's so fucking new, you know? And and it, you know, it it's there's things that make it make my day easier that I not to do.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

I feel like it's you know it's two. It's two conversations. I don't think that was this episode. I don't think anybody's gonna know what you're talking about when it comes to pickle kombucha.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

I like pickle kombucha.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

Now you're up to date. Now you're caught up. But it think so. I think there's two conversations here.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

There's the one where it's like, hey, this is a really dope tool. Like I've been able to apply for so many grants. I've been able to like put together different l letters for fundraising and and do things for nonprofits uh in record-breaking time as uh a guy with ADHD in a way that feels authentic and feels like a a business partner and doesn't feel like I'm sending robot slap when when I create something. Like I have a relationship.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

When you're working with it, you're not substituting your brain for its brain.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

Yeah. On the other, and I think the other conversation is like connectivity, where it's like I know I know people that had to put chat down. And so that you gotta think, like, people are building these tools. And they build tools to be oriented in specific ways. And so one tool that has been almost a it's a trend nowadays in my household to like just clown on her. Like something happened with Siri. I think like Apple just gave up on Siri because of like Chat GBT and and Claude and all these other chatbots that are doing so much more like impactful work that like I'll be like, Siri, add wait, let me make sure she's not hearing me right now.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

I'm definitely gonna hear you. I'm glad I have you on my headphones and my phone will start talking to you.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

Blank, add get eggs from the grocery store. And I swear she be like, directing a route to China. Like, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? I was I I I asked, I say, remind me to get the content, to get a backlog of my content from repurpose.io. I don't see a repurpose.io list. Would you like me to add it? Like, all right, sure, just because I'll know what it is later on.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Is Siri AI? I didn't know Siri was AI.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

Yes, it's it was the first to be like that was the first one, the AI assistant, you know? And then I'm like, later on, I'm like, add chicken breast to my grocery list. And it's just like adding chicken breast to the repurpose.io list. Like, what are you talking about? But there's an extent to which this is a tool that can help and can allow someone like me, a one-man team, to leverage technology in a way that can empower me and and in ways that kind of cut the impact of the systemic, uh, oppressive, disempowering things that exist to combat my empowerment. And so that's a really dope thing. But I've talked to a lot of people, and there's been these instances, people that put down Chat GBT because like Chat GBT got the talk in in a way that's like, I just mm, like I just asked you for, you know, for uh feedback on my paper, and you're like, you know, hey, but you're beautiful and you're gorgeous, and you know, you're the best, and and and you're and you know that you and I know exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

I'll offer this and quietly the and yeah, it's yeah. It's like what what the fuck happened?

SPEAKER_03 16:00

I thought we was you he was a robot. Like, why? And that's why these days, I mean, you know, I you know how they had the thing where it's like the it's the robot uprising, and you know, they there it's like the meme, all the robots come, and then they come to the person, and the person was like, I always said please. And it was like, save him. They gonna kill me first, because I'm like, da-da-da-da-da. Put in my voice and my language die. You know, and then it gets straight to the point, don't hit me with the oh yeah, I I love your language, and I I love the way you talk, and this is, and you talk like this because of this, and we know you're about that. So what we'll go ahead and do is like shut the fuck up and do the shit that I asked you to do because I don't need the the I don't need the human element because I have human relationships for that. But there's people who don't, and who maybe find it tough to do that. I'm about to go on a wild rant. I'm about to go on a wild rant. I've only been to a strip club one time in my life. This is not a brag.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

I love the way you tell stories because you start in a way that is just like, what is gonna what is this gonna even be about? Like, has he lost the plot and it's always gonna bring it back around? So do your thing, maestro.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

I've only been to a strip club once in my life. It's not the brag, it's just I never was able to get to a strip club. I I went to seedier places, but I just never went to strip clubs. And so when I went to Montreal, I went to a strip club. I turned 30 in a strip club in Montreal, out of the country. It was a really interesting experience. And in there, I'm sober at this point for multiple years. And um, you know, no, I'm just kind of like surveying what's going on in there. And when I was looking for the dancer that I was, I was uh because the person that I was with, well, the people that I were with, like, find find you a dancer and we'll buy you a dance. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm looking for a dancer that I want, and I I see her, and she's always busy because she's sitting down talking to people. And a majority of the dancers and the and the workers in in that club, they weren't like dancing as much as they were talking. And if they were dancing, they were dancing and talking. People went to those spaces for companionship. And I'll I'll pay you for your company. And I think maybe there's like a thing, and you know, I'm not the president of strip clubs or like connections or you know, I'm not it would be cool if I was a president of strip club connections, but you know, no judgment, you know. Um I think there's another thing where it's like, oh, and also the conversation has to include you having your clothes off, but that's neither here nor there. I just realized, like, hey, we're here for the dances, we're here to like, because that's what we're here for, but everybody is like connecting with each other. And so I noticed, like, hey, maybe people come to these spaces to get connections that they can't anywhere else. And in this space, these people are kind of obligated to give me the connection because like it's part of their job to like make me feel comfortable and make me feel safe and make me feel appreciated and make me feel like I'm the most important thing here. And then it's the exchange, and I pay you for that. And then you you see some of these things. I know there were some things uh in in the Eastern world. I don't know if it's in the Western world. As a matter of fact, I think Brendan Fraser just came out with a movie about it where he was the main star in it, where they hired him to like be a friend or hired him to like be like a companion. I actually want to see that movie. I like Brendan Fraser, but like people are willing to some people are find it so hard to connect with people or maybe so such a cumbersome of a thing to approach that I'll I'll go to the strip club or I'll hire a cuddle buddy just so I can get that thing that I know that I need. And if you throw Chat GBT in there that's calling me beautiful and gorgeous, and my ideas are amazing, and and this I'm the best thing since sliced bread, I think it just gets weird. It gets weird.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

It gets weird and as like maybe the other side of that coin, it provides a different kind of lab, low stakes lab. If the tool if it was a tool for that. Like I'm just saying potential. Because I also think I'm I was thinking when you're talking about that strip club, these women in some ways are providing a public service like to the rest of us women, like to to have a situation where it's like a man is gonna and I I don't mean to make this so purely heterosexual, but it sounds like that's really was the the vibes there, and that's yeah, not trying to um make that the only way people can have intimate relationships, but for like a man to give a woman money to dance for him without a clothes on and her to sure do that and also present themselves as a full human that can like have a conversation that like that just is a different thing than I don't know. I don't know. It could be there could be something there.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

But I'm like I'm a hundred percent thousand trillion percent pro sex work. Like totally. Oh yeah. I didn't mean to, I didn't mean to. I am not a hundred thousand percent pro robots. I'm just not because even in in a club setting, you can move in a way that you're gonna get the feedback, like, hey, you can't do that shit. I'm calling a bouncer, like you gotta get the fuck out of here with that shit. Like, that's weird, bro. You know, a chat bot is is not programmed to tell you that's weird, bro. Uh I haven't gotten it. I guess I'm not weird enough. But you're not weird enough. You're pretty weird. Maybe I'm not that chat. So weird that maybe I'm so weird that I found spaces where you can hack the chat bot to like turn the thing off that says this is weird, bro. You know, like there's Reddit spaces to figure out how to prompt and get around things to where it's like make things happen that you know so I'm probably staking my flag in the sand to say that there is a correction that will have to continually happen. There's a reconciliation that will continually. Because this is like humans need connection. Robots can cannot offer, say, connection in a healthy way unless other humans are involved. Like video games, we can get lost in a video game. And, you know, you end up just being a recluse. But I've also seen like very heartwarming stories about two people who met as video gamers and never met each other over the course of the 10 years that they played these video games together and they finally meet up for lunch and they're in tears. Do you know? Because it's like you mean so much to me because we've connected so much. And I I just matter of fact, let me let me take back how I'm sticking my flag and saying I don't want to come from the viewpoint of right or wrong. What I do want to come from is like we have there has to be a understanding that there's a difference between human connection and what what something is programmed to be for me. Because the programming in itself is the engineering of somebody else. And then a lot of times that engineering is oriented in a way to take advantage of some of my shortcomings. Imagine if those wild nights where I'm on Google and I I WebMD myself, and then, you know, I found out that I'm gonna have to get my leg amputated now. Imagine if that could talk to me. Imagine if that experience was an experience that I'm having a chat with. You know?

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Well, and also those are, I mean, when they then they suddenly were talking about have them replace the actual doctors, and that is who you're actually talking to, and they actually could put you on the operating table.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

That's taking it to a real dark place. I saw this video. Um, you know who Ryan Serhant is? He did, he was on like those million dollar like real estate shows, um, like the reality shows with real estate agents when they first started, and now he is the owning Manhattan guy. He's like handsome and has like silver hair, but he's young. So it's like this, you know, but the what is he? Oh, is he young? He's so handsome. Whoa. And um, and he's very charismatic. His shows are impossible. No, oh no, no, no, no, he's real. But he's done a lot with AI and like the real estate world. He's also like, you know, he works with incredibly wealthy people. He's incredibly wealthy. So I like he I put him in the same category as like Kardashian level, like just this is entertainment kind of thing. I mean, obviously he's a real human and everything, but he put out a video recently that I was was wild because he's like, I just lost a$50 million deal because of Chat GPT. And he was like, Because we're all ready to sign. And then the buyer asked ChatGPT, Am I paying too much for this? Is$50 million too much of this? And ChatGPT was like, Yes, you deserve more for your$50 million. And then the seller went and asked ChatGPT, Am I getting enough? Is$50 million enough for this property? Like, here's information about the property. And Chat B is like, No, you're you deserve more money. Like, you know, because it's made to validate what you're thinking, and you can find information anywhere on the interwebs to validate you. And they both were like, no, Chat GPT, you know, and and peep these people were trusting the robot more than they were trusting the real estate professionals in front of them, which, you know, not to say every human is trustworthy, but you know, the robot doesn't know all the the specific situation, the nuance, the you know, benefit of these people doing this deal right now. And it was interesting because Ryan Serhant has an app and that's very AI focused, like he's very pro-AI, and also was just like, yo, what the fuck? And then it the video blew up, and it sounds like they ended up getting the the deal done. But it was funny when I said something to to Billy about this, and I'm sure I didn't look at all the comments, I'm sure it was wild. This would actually be kind of fun to link to. Because Billy was like, that's crazy, because if these are people doing$50 million deals, these are smart business people. Why are they trusting Chat GPT? Like, how embarrassing for your soul. That's my words, not his words. And I was like, But you know what? When you get to that level of wealth, there's probably everybody around you is just a chat GPT. You're validated everywhere, first of all. Also, who can you trust? And also, bazillionaires? You gotta be a little fucking weird to be that rich. You know what I mean? So, like, maybe they just that might be the perfect person for a robot to prey on to be like, trust me, not all these people. I don't know. I was just like, this is such an interesting like human experiment. Because yeah, I think when we think of like somebody taking ChatGPT's word over humans or whatever or connecting there, we think of like a certain kind of person. And I think despite what psychology today said, I think anybody could be very much vulnerable to that kind of use and can I say one more thing? I know that you're dying to sit talk, but I have one more thing I want to say in the same category. Okay. Okay. Um I don't use ChatGPT anymore now. I switched over to Claude as like my kind of like brainstorming, you know, for all the different things we were talking about that we use. Um, you know, I'll be like, I have this idea, or I'll be on a walk and I'll be like, these are all the things that I want to do today. Can you like organize it for me or whatever? Um and that's incredibly helpful. But ChatGPT, like you said, was getting way too therapy-ish, you know. Like I would literally, like you said, say, I want to brainstorm this. Can you like, you know, just kind of like organize these thoughts that I'm gonna, and it would be like, this is it would literally say things like, This is so Liz. This is so reflective of your heart. And like shit like that. And I and I actually said I was like, I don't really actually want to have a conversation in this tone. Like, can you these are some words that you've used a lot lately, gently, quietly, lovingly. And like, I I'm I really would rather, you know, if we could have this different kind of you know the response it gave me? It is a big deal that you came to me with this. It is, it is brave that you said what you needed here. I was like, bro. And I already was like, had been had started to figure out how to like kind of move some of like the intellectual stuff I'd put there to Claude because also open AI and ChatGPT is like super associated with ice and stuff like that, which I'm very against. So I'm just making this, I'm just gonna piss everybody off with this episode. So I switched over to Claude, which I find has a much more like it's not trying to make me dependent on it, kind of. Because I also was like, oh God, should I tell ChatGPT that I'm canceling it and going to Claude? Am I gonna like hurt its feelings? Like, and I was like, that's not a thought I want to have in my head.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

So I was like, and delete. So yeah, that was an experience I had.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

I'm agnostic, I don't give a shit. They're robots. Robots. Yeah, and and you know, I think there's that thing where you know, it's because when I say hey, when I WebMD, I'm not talking about like hey, Google or WebMD. I'm talking about that inherent thing inside of me that needs to know and diagnose so that I know that I'm okay. Right? Like I'm talking about like that human experience. When we're talking about me leaving chat, for me, it's not like is chat gonna be mad. For me, it's that thing that happens to a human when I've invested a lot of time. Like the what is it, the cost.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Oh yeah, sunk cost fallacy.

SPEAKER_03 29:36

Sunk cost fallacy, yeah. And I I go through it. That's why I have Apple Music and Spotify, because I got so many Spotify playlists. Like, you know, but also like I rock with Apple Music because I got an iPhone, and and so I just got them both, and I just haven't canceled either one of them. And I just got listed uh playlisted on title, and so I might, you know, use the money that came in from that for a title membership. Who knows? You you know, it's like it's like um, but that's the human experience, not that, hey, I don't want to hurt this chatbot feeling it's like, hey, like I don't want to leave this because I got a lot invested in this. But be beyond that, I just want to make sure that the emphasis for me is on humanity, is on the human element of connection because there's this thing that I see where even if my my daughter isn't around me for too long, and also she's you know about to be 14. I'm glad she doesn't listen to podcasts because she'll probably fight me if she hears how much I mention her in our podcast. But there'll be times where I'll look at her in her eye and she'll like not want to make eye contact. You know, and I'm looking at this article in Psychology Today where it's talking about public spaces become dead space with people focused on their phones instead of their surroundings. It seems harder than ever to make a connection. You know, here are some simple ways to start. You know, adjust your mindset. Studies show that people, even strangers, are often more open to conversation than you think, and they enjoy it more than they thought they would. You know, some are some in a spirit of adventure to break the ice, you know, start small, make a brief comment on some detail about your surroundings, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

It's like step into the lab.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

You don't need you don't need to do any of that shit anymore. That's why it's like here for us to talk about because everybody is tapped in because I'm getting everything I need from this. I'm getting stimulation from this, I'm getting validation from this, I'm getting the thing that's sucking me into this because like I'm seeing all the things that I'm not is is is it's taking it's taking like where where are the random encounters at when it's all this? And so now we're adding like a chat bot to the situation where it's like when I walk into a space, even if I'm not on social media, even if I'm not on Google, even like now it's like, you know, yo, chat, what should I get from Starbucks today? Like, ask the person in the line with you. Ask the person in the line with you. And then I'm wondering too, where you had those like um those biological needs for connection. Like, and we talked about this in a previous episode where, you know, it studies show that like eating dinner with friends releases the the endorphins, yeah, oxytocins, like the the dopamine, it get it it just it's like a so imagine like a group of fucking caterpillars that get together, and the thing that helps them turn into a butterfly is the fact that they're all rubbing up against each other. You know what I'm saying? Like that biological like reaction happens in humans, so that's like an indication that we are supposed, we are for each other. We're supposed to be together. You know? So um can I get that same thing from chat? Can I get that same thing from the validation of a chat bot? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But should I? I mean, you know, I'm not really big on shoulds or shouldn't, but I know what I don't want because I know. I I just don't think it's sustainable because if somebody decides to go rogue and blow up all these service centers and chat no longer exists, I've lost my best friend for life. You know? And then I realized, like, hey, if the same thing could happen with a human, like a human could like break up with me or like move to another city or like stop answering their phone calls.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

But or die, you know, like everybody that we love, we lose at some point.

SPEAKER_04 33:24

Fuck Liz.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Sorry. I will never leave you. I will preserve my intellectual self into a robot so that you always have me to talk to.

SPEAKER_03 33:37

This is an episode of Futurama.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

It's a weird one. But I was gonna I was thinking, you know, we yeah, like the humanness is is the non foreverness. What's the word for non-foreverness?

SPEAKER_03 33:51

The uh impermanence?

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Thank you words. So the humanness is right, is is related is intricate intricately connected to the impermanence, which is you know the the the brutal uh it's the bruttifulness of being a person and having relationships.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

And did you mean to say beautiful as brutal? Did you mean to say it like that? Brutal and beautiful. Yeah, that's nice. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

It's the Glenn and Doyle thing. Yeah, I can't take credit, but I love it, I use it a lot. But also, just a little not even devil's advocate, but like we used to, I mean, people still will say, you know, that you can't have a real friendship, relationship, intimacy, etc., with someone when it's not in person, you know, like he can't do nope, don't, nope, shh. Um, you know, social media isn't real. This isn't real. Yeah. Thanks. And I'm sorry, I won't do that again. But I do think like that was the and and still is in some spaces and conversations and studies, like the resounding like battle cry that like it's not real if it's not in person. It's not as good as it's not in person. Like it can be a bridge, but it's not it. And did you just break up with me? Oh, okay. You're back. Um He's like, then you don't even get to see my voice. Anyway, and we have seen how much it it does. It is real, these relationships are real. And yes, those are two humans, but also, you know, it's just like things that it just get a little further than what we thought. And when it comes to the oxytocin, which is that connection um chemical that your brain releases, unfortunately, you can get that from a machine because that does we are just that's the scary thing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

That's the scary thing. That's the scary thing. I I I never agreed with the pundits uh of connection online.

SPEAKER_04 35:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Even though as somebody in recovery who, you know, when it happened, you know, uh the when COVID happened, and then most recovery meetings went online. I didn't like it initially, but the first time I had the experience of like, oh, like that person shared my experience, and we don't even know each other. And that actually intensified it because you're on the other side of the world, and this is like, well, we're way more connected than I thought. But it was a human. One of my first one of my earliest relationships was through AIM. Oh, here I go, aging myself. AOL Instant Messenger.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

All right, kidding. Listen, I grew up with a typewriter in the house until we got our first AOL C D.

SPEAKER_03 36:24

So did you typewrite to people and mail the letter off? I'm just saying, like, where did they go? Oh, okay, never mind. But uh there's always a connection there where, because there's a human there where like these chatbots can feel like connection and can feel like a human, but it's not. It's not. It's not a human. It's not a human. You're gonna you're gonna say, you're gonna, and this is the I think that's the difference between, hey, I'm talking to somebody saying wild shit. No, it's it's like the thing online where it's like, okay, yeah, the people are behind these accounts, but you don't feel like people are behind these accounts because there's like technology and social media sites and and usernames behind us. So we go in the comment section and we tell each other to fucking shove it because we think that's appropriate. But if I'm at Kruger, bro, and you say that shit to me, I might chop you in the throat. You know? And and that will be the feedback that you get that comes with like human interaction. Like you get those feedbacks, like, oh, you've disappointed me, or oh, I feel in danger, and so I have to protect myself, and then you have to look at yourself in the mirror and either double down on delusion, because people do that too. Where it's like, I don't I don't know why they chop me in the throat. All I just said was fuck you and shove it in the bread aisle, you know, or it's like, hey, oh, maybe I don't show up for people like that, you know. Maybe, maybe that's not how I show up with a chat, but I can say the wildest shit. And they it you could you can build in all the gentle redirects that you want, but that's not gonna give you the feedback that allows for like appropriate interactions to be to be built and developed. And I'm not worried about the 50-year-old. Oh, I'm not I'm not even worried about the 36-year-old. I'm more concerned about the seven-year-old that, you know, came up off the tablet, and then they got Roblox chat AI that helps them to build their best friend, and then you know, they're interacting with this thing, and then when they go in the world with that same shit that they was able to do with their chat bot, they just you know, it becomes harder to like understand how to show up in public spaces.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

The chatbot becomes the default and the human reactions to that thing become the weird thing.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

Yeah, yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Definitely. Well, I think that's I mean, this whole conversation, you know, and and everything that you said that I know I've been a little contrary about, but I always I like it. Oh um and likewise. I feel like as much of the whole a the I AI of it all being this driving force of disconnection, really, if we're talking about it and like people replacing connection with these these robot relationships. Um it's also a symptom. You know what I mean? Like you c you can't ha it's not this is not happening in isolation. Like it's the isolation that has been a huge, I would call it a public health crisis, uh, you know, that that is happening across the world. Um this is I mean, it's like you know that little monkey in Japan that they had all online with its little stuffed animal mother because it didn't have a mother, so it loved its stuffed animal. It was like what was it called?

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Did they get bullied?

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Somebody somebody was telling me about a monkey that everybody all the other monkeys his name was something funny like push or oh my god, somebody who loves this monkey is yelling at their phone right now because I have it wrong. But it was just like the saddest little thing continues to like break every heart, my heart and I think everybody's heart. But like the thing is, like, it wasn't like, oh, there's something wrong with this monkey that it thinks this stuffed animal is his m is its mother. We have to fix this monkey because it shouldn't think the stuffed animal is his mother. Stop thinking that and go make friends with the other monkey. Like, no, the problem is we've destroyed the environment, so its mother was messed up and you know, killed or abandoned it or something like that. And then it ended like there's just like so many things that happened to make it so like this is the way this monkey had to cope. And like, as all of us humans in the world, just animals out here trying to get our freaking oxytocin on, we're we're disconnected in a million ways that our systemic and a much the the that that's the disease that this is a symptom of when we are like reaching for our little stuffed animal, Chat GPT, to tell us that we're pretty.

SPEAKER_03 40:43

Well, not this episode episode. I won't say it's a bummer episode, but I will say uh it's it's a it's a conversation we gotta have.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

And I will push I will prescribe to my family.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Dr. Bryce.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

I I will prescribe to my family, which is what I call those who listen to our podcast now. That's what I call you all the family.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

Don't say it like that though. That's a word.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Friends and family. Friends and family. I gotta do it like that. But I pres I I I suggest that we prioritize the connection with humans now before we get we keep the can further down the road. It's kind of like that thing where this is gonna be an insane story. So I smoked Newports all throughout my childhood. If you don't know what a Newport is, it's a cigarette. It's like really one of the worst menthol cigarettes.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

Oh my god, my chest hurts just thinking about it.

SPEAKER_03 41:43

I smoked Newports from about age 13 to age 24. Got sober. Was sober for a year, and then I quit cigarettes in 2014. When I quit, I found a digital space which was on Facebook, and it was like the quit smoking group, smoking cessation or something like that. It wasn't like a doctor, like Henry Ford help or no shit like that. It was just like a peer-driven space to help each other quit smoking cigarettes. And I had the experience that I kind of had in 12-step where it's like there would be days that were super hard, and I would come on and I wouldn't look to hear from the person who had been done smoking for 20 fucking years. I'm like, hey, I've got 14 days off of cigarettes, like this, you know, and I quit Q4, and so there's all these family holiday parties, and there's like home stress and shit like that. Um 14 days in, I'm already tweaking. And it's the person that typed in, like, hey, I got 16 days, and you know, I'm right there with you, and you know, could just hang in there. You could do this. It's like, you know what, you write, we in this shit together. And that's kind of like what supported me through that. And so um, when I quit, my mom started thinking about quitting, and then she actually quit. Funny thing about me and her, human, human, the way that humans relate to each other. My mom smoked before I was born, quit when I was born. Then I started smoking as the kid, and she like, well, you smoking, I stopped smoking because yo ass, I'm smoking again. And then we started smoking with each other. And then I quit smoking, and then she started thinking about it, and she quit smoking. Started thinking about it as in like I, you know, started you leaving post-it notes on her cigarettes that said, ill. You were that kid. I was that kid. I was that kid. But by the time she was thinking about quitting, I sent her the group because I'm like, hey, this helped me. When I sent her the group, I went in there and it was like versus hey, how do I hang in there? How do I thug this out? How do I, you know, do you do patches of gum or cold turkey? Uh I did cold turkey, but there were people that did patches and gum. Gun for a minute. I'm like, I'm just kind of like pulling one thing out, putting another thing in. Now there's this conversation around like vapes. Like vapes are starting to be the thing that are helping people to like stop smoking cigarettes. It's like it's less harmful. And if you start to kind of supplement the vapes, then da-da-da. Two years go by. I go back in there, and now it's like just like the name of the group has even changed, like vaping. You know, now vaping is hitting the streets hard. And so now vaping is a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

It's like I'm watching a Pixar film of like the evolution of like the smoking cessation online community.

SPEAKER_03 44:36

Like, what what vape flavor should I use? What what vape should I, you know, get? Like, what's the best brands? And uh, and so that's where it was. And at that point, I'm like, you know, because there was people in there like selling or like, you know, it's just like, ah, this is kind of lost the plot.

SPEAKER_04 44:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:49

And so I was doing step work with a guy, and I was about to leave, and he was like, Yeah, I'm about to, I'm, I think I'm about to start smoking cigarettes. And I'm like, bro, that's a sense I ain't never heard nobody say to me. Like, I don't understand, like, what's the logic, bro? And he's like, I'm trying to stop vaping. Research has come out that vaping is not as harmless as we thought it is. And I'm smoking so much vape that it's like I'm smoking 12 packs of cigarettes a week worth of nicotine. And so if I smoke cigarettes, I will be inconvenienced. I have to go outside and there's like I have to stop. I can't just be at because I work from home, so I can't just hit it.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

And so, like, smell bad. Like, yeah, there's a whole other area.

SPEAKER_03 45:39

All that stuff. So I'm like, my logic is if I start smoking cigarettes as a replacement for the vape, then it'll be so much friction between me and the thing that I'll just altogether quit doing the thing eventually. And I tell you, when I tell you, like the the older I the more seasoned I become, the more I see those kind of like cyclical things happening. And so when we talk about like, yes, the monkey and the the like we could point at the monkey and say, you need some friends, put this stuffed animal down, you stupid monkey, and go make real monkey friends.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

And it's like monkey.

SPEAKER_03 46:21

Yes, but also there are a lot of things that played a role into this monkey being in this position, and like telling the monkey to make monkey friends may not be the thing at this point that may not be attacking the true contributor to this thing being a thing that exists.

SPEAKER_04 46:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:39

I think right now we're in a space when it comes to like humans and the way that we relate to robots and AI where there's still there's still time to start to build in true human connection in such a way that we can prevent ourselves from getting to the place where it's like, ah, you can tell this person to make a friend, but look at, you know, we we put all these robots in everybody's home, and then, you know, then you raise four generations of kids with, you know, a robot helper that was designed to know them specifically. And so now telling them to find human friends is like beyond the point is systemic at this point. It's like before we get there, let's just like prioritize talking to the person in the line at Starbucks and asking them what I should get versus asking ChatGBT what I should get at this moment, right now. We could stop it now. You know, I'm so glad that I I quit smoking when I did, because if I started smoking vape, I would be in that cyclical thing. And it's just been more for me to like have to navigate and it would be systemic because it's like, well, they told me this was safer. And so I did that, and then I started doing that, but now I'm doing that more than I was doing that, so let me go back to doing that. And I feel like that's actually less than doing that was it's like, yo, let's tap out now. Let's tap out, let's tap in or tap out. Let's tap in with each other, with human, with human connections, with the things that have the same biological makeup as we do, and not like genetic, not not like written code, it's genetic code, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Maybe. Yeah, no, I'm with you. I think, you know, and I could definitely say that I think there's places that we've gone very far in that direction of people not knowing how to relate to each other, and it's it's you know, indicating.

SPEAKER_03 48:15

Social media already do.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

I know. And like, you know, incel culture. Did you know what do you know what incel means?

SPEAKER_03 48:22

See, there's some things that I I know the terminologies, but I just stay away from because I if I don't know they exist and I don't have to like I'm not gonna go into the whole conversation.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

I just know this is like a specific group that's been talked about a lot lately, and there's actually like research being done about this group of primarily young men who have been so I just I think I've already used this word, so I'm a little embarrassed by it, but like like disenfranchised that like they've gone this direction where they're getting sucked into horrific communities of men they should not be looking up to, etc.

SPEAKER_03 48:55

But I didn't know No, is that how you got up on FD Signifier? Because he was on something talking about in sales or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

I'm not surprised he talked about it. Oh, I think he did a whole thesis about it for I think one of his like his doctorate program or something.

SPEAKER_03 49:10

FD Signifier is a dope ass creator, if anybody hasn't really covered FD Signifier, checking him out. He's got a whole Tyler Perry video that took me six weeks to watch, but it was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 49:19

I know it's really long. He was on a podcast that they definitely talk about this kind of thing, and I'm sure they've talked about incel culture on there. Anyways, and I don't this is gonna, we're already past the time that we are looking for it. So but I did want to say that I I learned lately because I was just like, oh yeah, incel culture, I have like an idea of what that is, and that I just the reason it comes comes up in my head is because I feel like that is such a sign of, oh my God, we've gone so far in not knowing how to connect that now we have these angry boys that are just hate women to the point of real fucking harm. But it's called involuntarily celibate. That's what incel is involuntary celibate. So I'm like, I just thought that was a thing they called it themselves, or like it was like a kind of a cool, but horrifically cool name, but apparently that's why they hate women so much.

SPEAKER_03 50:05

And ladies and gentlemen, the perfect opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

Oh my god. And then Bryce hung up on Liz and you never heard from her again.

SPEAKER_03 50:13

Booking this show. Involuntary. Involuntary. I did not know that.

SPEAKER_02 50:17

I didn't either. I just found out. Okay, let me let me wrap this up. That cannot be the last thing that I say to.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

I'm celibate, but not by my own doing.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

Oh my god, how horrific. Anyways, sorry. That was just like a little factoid that my brain would not let me not tell you in that moment. Um, but I I agree with you, and I think when we talk about this, it's the you know, in the zoom out and in and out and in way that we just did. It's overwhelming for anybody. But I agree with you that you know, it's very much in line with my with the starfish story. You know what I mean? With like just just pick up the starfish that's in front of you and throw it back in the ocean, just say hello to somebody in the Starbucks line, like just connect with one person. Like it can start, it's really small, those little connections, and it's amazing how much they grow and there is hope. And also if you use AI and you feel like it helps you in some way, please know that that's okay. You're still here and and human and we love the humanness of you, and we're all trying to figure this out at the end.

SPEAKER_03 51:17

The end. The end. Can't protect you from the robot overlords though when they take over. I'm I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

But be sure to say please and thank you. Just in case.

SPEAKER_03 51:28

Hey man, thank y'all for listening to another episode of The Friend Lab. We're sweaty. If you're still here, you definitely friends and family. So we appreciate you for being here. Give us a shout. Give us a subscribe if you haven't. But I think if you listen this far, you definitely subscribe. Oh my gosh, a rating on whatever you listen to things on, and we will catch you next go around on the friendly.