Boundary Setting 101: The Thin Line Between Consideration and Self-Advocacy

How do you show up fully for the people you love without losing yourself in the process? In this episode of The Friend Lab, Bryce and Liz get into one of the most honest conversations the pod has had yet — the real tension between being a considerate person and being a self-advocate.

Liz opens up about how recovery literally forced her to break through a lifelong pattern of people-pleasing, and how "life or death" became the threshold that finally gave her permission to choose herself. Bryce reflects on what it means to move through the world rooted in self-inventory — and why staying too long in spaces where you're seen as inconsiderate can quietly erode how you see yourself.

They also get into the difference between guilt and shame (thanks, Brené), what it looks like to repair a relationship without abandoning your own truth, and why the messiest, most honest version of growth happens in the brackish water — that murky in-between where the people who challenge you and the people who know you end up in the same place.

This one is for anyone who's ever apologized when they didn't need to, stayed silent when they should've spoken, or wondered if caring about others and caring about yourself can actually coexist. Spoiler: they can. But it takes work.

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About Liz McKean: Liz is a hypnotherapist, yoga teacher, and creator of spaces where people can unshame their coping tools and finally feel better.

About Bryce The Third: When it comes to the most authentic and impactful voices rising out of Detroit, Michigan, Bryce The Third is a name you can’t afford to leave out. Not just an artist, he’s an emotional engineer with a live show that a mix of performance art, storytelling, high level lyricism and community building. Not only does Bryce have a story to tell, when you witness it, you’ll wanna tell yours 

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More about Liz → lizmckean.com

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Follow Bryce on Instagram → @brycethethird

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

And it's like I really care about you and I really care about what you think about me. But in this moment, like I I know my heart and I'm sitting here trying to get you to like you don't see my heart, you don't like I'm not seeing my heart. And my shit being tainted. Cause I'm continuing to get your feedback and I'm taking it to heart. No, it's my heart. I know what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Guilt is a feeling that you have that essentially is saying, like, I did something bad. And shame is when you feel like I am something bad. You want to bump into shit that you don't usually bump into because that's the thing that reminds you who the fuck you are and strengthens your ability to continue to be the person that you want to be because it's a muscle.

SPEAKER_05 0:36

What up, my friends, and welcome to The Friend Lab. We're your host and good friends, Bryce the Third.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

And Liz McKean. And if you're here, you're here to cook up some friendship.

SPEAKER_05 0:45

We know that it's hard to make friends, and it could be a challenge to keep friends and be a friend. So building connections in your life is something that you're looking to get better at. You're in the right place.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Friendship and connection and relationships of all kinds are the best kind of challenge. It's the thing that makes being a person worth being a person. We're excited to share our friendship with you.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

So throw your lab coach on and let's get this experiment jump in the friend lab. In the friend lab. Welcome to another episode of the Friend Lab Podcast. We are your host, Bryce the Third.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

And Liz McCain.

SPEAKER_05 1:13

Hey, so on the front end, if you are part of the buddyhood, we need you to go ahead and like and subscribe or review or send a comment or do whatever the freak, man. Like, do the things that make the things that you love stand out on the internet, on the interwebs for us. And when I say for us, I mean for the whole buddyhood. If you don't know what I'm talking about, just stick around and you'll get to learn a little bit more. Today's episode is gonna be kind of quick, not because um there's anything special as to the programming of the show, but because this is an episode about friends, and my friend Liz has to meet her friend who apparently runs early. I don't know if you've ever gotten a text where some like I get a lot of texts like, hey, I'm running a little bit late, but this friend text Liz said, I'm running a little bit early. So we're not gonna hold Liz for long, and we're not gonna hold you for any longer either. Um Liz.

SPEAKER_04 2:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:05

How much do you consider somebody not fucking with what you need to do for you, what you've identified that you need to do? Let me ask this question differently. So people play a huge role into the way that I move. Because I'm I'm like I like I like people. I actually like being liked. You know, I I I don't you know those people's like, uh I don't care about anybody's feelings. Like I I care a lot about people's feelings, you know? And I also really care that my intentions and my heart shines through in my actions. And so I don't want people who I care about to feel this not not considered.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:46

But to what extent, how do you tell that line between consideration and self-advocacy? When when when I'm w how how do you deal with being okay with being expressing doing something that like had that has obviously pissed somebody off, but like you know that you need to like show up and do that for yourself.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

I feel like that's one of the gifts of being a person in recovery because at some point it became honestly, this is not even a dramatic way to say it, life or death to like do the things that I need to do. Um and that broke through the lifelong people pleaser in me. And I'm still I still I like to be liked too. And I consider myself a considerate person and a generous person, and I really, really care about people's feelings. And when it comes to if there is a thing that I need, if there's a I mean, you've seen this, like when we've been um places together and you have something you want to do, and you you know, I you've invited me, or it would be cool if we did together something. Like if I need to not do that thing, or if I need to have space by myself, or if I need to leave something early, if I like whatever, I think I will do it. And I I think yeah, I'm just gonna fucking do it. And then, you know, the people in my life who will have you know a reaction to that, I will do my best to repair, but will not let that be a reason to not do a thing that I need. I need it, which is not like like right now I'm hungry, right? Which I have expressed to you several times.

SPEAKER_05 4:26

I'm trying to give you a glazzy, you'll only want to tell you.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

I know, sorry. It was just, you know, it's hard when you're however many miles away Detroit is from Rochester. Anyways, I you know, but like I also really want to be here. So it's not like, oh, I have a a want for something, so I'm just gonna abandon this commitment that I have to my friend that I'm really excited to be, you know, part of and doing because I, you know, my I come first. But if I was having like a blood sugar drop and I felt like absolute hot garbage, like I would be like, I'm sorry, dude, we can't record this right now. I gotta go get my heat up my lunch or whatever. So it's just, you know, there's a there's nuance in there, but I do think Yeah, I do, I do want to do and I'm really lucky because I'm lucky and also this has been very on purpose. The people who I have in my life that I, you know, do things with are people who I who respect that. Like my friend who's running early. The reason I know that, because she texts me to be like, we're running a little early, she's got a little kid, so you know, her schedule is often dictated by him, you know. But you know, we can get started, we can go for a walk. Like, let me know, you know, I don't want to mess up your day. So if we need to meet or whatever, like there was nothing about that that was like demanding that I adjust to their schedule because the people in my life are also very considerate. But she also she's not gonna not come early just because I might not be ready.

unknown 5:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:37

Does that answer your question? I I guess, yeah. I mean, I think it's it's uh it's a bit of a riff. I think those who can't navigate that process alongside me, I probably spend less time with.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:56

Because there are some people like I again, I believe in people. I believe everybody's doing the best they can with what they've been given, and I rarely feel like something was like intentional. Where I feel where I feel away, like I don't feel like people intentionally make me feel away. I think that people are moving how they move, and they come to the decision that moving how they move is the way that they need to move, and that it has rubbed against me in a way that I need to show up for.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:21

Um, but not everybody moves in that way, and so I think like you know, you and I we've we've bumped heads many a times, and I think the way that we can like show up for that conflict in a way that like uh is aware that the other person is showing up to come to the highest conclusion for both of us. I think continuing to hold that at the forefront of the ways that we interact in our interactions is what allows for us to continue to be friends. You know, and actually is what kind of brings us closer as like time goes on, because time plus opportunity, the equals situations and da-da-da. You know, so there's gonna be a lot of novel things that we come across that are gonna challenge the relationship in ways that can grow us. And I mean, you know, the way even I view our relationship is like I don't see any other option, you know, because I think we're both growth-minded in that way. Um and I have had relationships that very, very recently, like it's it's like I'm kinda tired of doing the gymnastics for a person that's like, oh, well, you do did this, or you didn't da-da-da, or you didn't is like I like I don't I don't really trip for real. And so like trying to tiptoe and and and borrow your mind in a way to have compassion and understanding for you, but like it's really actually like siphoning the gas out of my tank that I I probably should be using for myself to give myself compassion. For, you know, I I also am really big on I I had this conversation in a parking lot of a 12-step meeting afterwards. It's like I hyperbole when I say this, but I don't, I don't feel like I'm I never feel wrong. Like I don't feel wrong, you know? Like I never feel wrong, you know? And and I think it's because the way I move is so rooted in like inventory, like self-inventory. Like I'm always checking myself to make sure, like, hey, did I, you know, that would when I moved like that, when I did this, when I ha ha ha ha, you, you know, was I mm, you know, did I miss something? You, you know, like it's hard for me to, especially when I feel really strong in the fact that, hey, I need to do this or I need to move in this way, or I need to not answer this text, or I need to like r uh reach out in this way, or I need to like be unavailable for a minute. Like, I I'm really strong in the advocacy of self in in that action, and that action like touches a person in a way, rubs up against them, where it's like, you know, it's like, hey, this isn't nice for anybody. Even though it's not nice for me, it's not nice for you. And if you know, depending on how close the relationship is, like, I think like intimate interpersonal relationships or like romantic relationships where like you are like the closest one to me, and on a daily basis, like that's where it can get pretty squirrely.

SPEAKER_04 9:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:15

Um, because now we're talking about like I'm consistently double guessing, like, am I advocating for myself or am I like hurting this person? This person says this thing, but I don't agree with that that being the case, and I definitely didn't approach it like that, but I can see how they can see that. So maybe I can move in a way that like doesn't make that happen to this person, but also I need to show up for me. And if I start moving like that, it's egg shelly. Who am I? What do I believe in? And I'm I need to go somewhere, and then I go there and it's like you live here too. You you know, it's just like that's that's where it can get like super squirrely. Um but I think relationships outside of like my household, it's not like my the I gotta live with you. I think it's a bit easier because I can give that space that allows for me to really integrate. Damn, did I say or did I do, or did I? And then recovery is the thing that helps me to be in the moment. Can I say something? I'm gonna say something. Maybe I should. I think I'm gonna say it. I think I'm gonna say it. So am I gonna say it? Let's see. So you all, if you've been listening, if this is your first episode, please just know, like, my heart is like definitely in a great place. Um I'm from the 90s. Uh and and coming up as a kid, like there were some things that I've had to work out of my system as I grow when I eat ball and I mature. And so we we were sitting at um, we were sitting on a curb, me and my my uh Ann Arbor family were playing tennis in the parking lot, whatever, like with the little phone balls and stuff. And um one of us asked a question, she said, if you could be any animal, what would you be? And I just, I'm not even, I just replied in a way that's like, it was just like I'm with home, I'm with the friends, and like I could just, I wasn't even, I didn't even think, I could just say whatever I wanted to say, you know what I'm saying? And then I thought about it when I said it, and then after that I was like a snake. You know what I'm saying? Like I'd be a snake, like to try to cover up the fact that I said some shit that like, what? You you know, and then afterwards, like I did the thing where it's like, all right, guys, like this is gonna fucking be weird and stupid. But when you asked that question, like I said this, and I like I just wanted to double back to make sure that everybody knows, like I, you know, I see I'm sure I'm sure like that could probably be taken away, but like you know, I ain't I I didn't mean it that way. And she was like, Yeah, I I don't know why you s said that, but like for me, like I know you're not like that. I know you're not that type of person.

SPEAKER_04 11:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:00

And also, like, I don't, I didn't even understand it. I'm like, neither did I. I just fucking said it. We just chilling it up. I feel super comfortable when I just say some shit. Um, but like I need to be around people that will, because that was very uncomfortable for me.

SPEAKER_04 12:15

Yeah, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_05 12:16

It was very uncomfortable for me because it's like uh I want people to like me. Also, I'm sitting here and I'm thinking about like what are people thinking about what I just said, and I hope that they don't like, oh, Bryce is weird, or you know, but also it's not even about how I feel that you feel that I am. If I'm you know, I I I just want to make sure that nobody feels any way like I'm not for them because I said this thing, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, and that was very uncontrol, like shoulders like this, like oh fuck. But I know if I don't say it now, I'm gonna think about this shit and every interaction we have moving forward, like I'm gonna think about that shit, and uh recovery is allowed for me to like do that in a moment and like recognize that feeling.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:53

I need people around me like that, you know? I need people around me that will self-check and also you know, be willing to have a conversation, you know?

SPEAKER_03 13:01

Yeah. I keep coming across this Brene Brown thing where the way she defines shame. Have you heard this? Like the difference between guilt and shame, Brene Brown. She says, and this I'm totally paraphrasing, but But because of the way the foundation of our relationship and our friendship, I feel comfortable both in my knowing that I'm not a bad person and in you knowing that I'm not a bad person. So like that foundation is so necessary for those relationships to exist. We both have to know that. I have to know that we both know that, or at least believe that we both know that, in order to feel like I can go and apologize for something because it's for the thing, it's for the behavior, it's for the thing I said, and it and and it would take a lot more than that to damage the foundation of the who I am, you know, as a person and who we are as a as a friendship. And you know, I feel like there had to have existed that, at least within you, you knew who the fuck you were to know, to recognize that that feeling didn't fit, didn't feel right. And therefore, you were able to say, Hey, this didn't feel right because you had respect for them too.

SPEAKER_05 14:07

Yeah, and I think like what's interesting about knowledge of self is you know, a lot of times that comes from the people around me, you know, and so the it's it's like um it's like a relationship that I gotta continually be aware of as to how much I agree with the feedback of those around me. You know, and and you know, I can manipulate it in a way. Manipulation might not be like the the best terminology, but like I can spend more time with these people that I know, you know. One of the things I said when I first came in the 12-step is like, hey, they looked at me as capable, unlike I had ever looked at myself or anybody ever looked at me. And so that because they see me like that, I grew into that. You know? And the same thing goes for when like that found building that foundation of trust and in each other, I think is important. And I think I'm to a point too where it's like any new relationships, there kind of has to already be something in there where it's like, you know, if I meet somebody and like, oh, you know, you didn't you didn't text me back, or oh, you know, I it's like, hey, you know, like hey, you know, you and and that comes on the back of showing up for people that I know care about me, I know they hurt, and I might reach out to them and they're not gonna get back immediately, or I might text them and they might not hit me back up. Like I, you know, the work that I do has to be reflected in the company that I keep. You know, it's like it's almost like, you know, it's like I've raised my broke, you know, when it comes to like relationships. You know, I I I just there's certain people that I just can't spend time with for a long time, and those people are the ones that I feel displace that level of responsibility of like what they're feeling and experiencing on everybody else all the time. Because I just do so much work to to make sure that even when I'm rubbed up against in a way that feels like friction, that I don't get at responsibility. That's not your responsibility. Like if I'm offended, if I'm hurt, if I'm if I feel slighted, if I feel like that's not on you. You know, that's not on you. And so uh and if I continue to put myself in situations where it's like I'm getting that feedback, like that's and I'm and I don't change the because I know me, if I continue to get the feedback, it's like, damn, like I'm an unconsider inconsiderate person. You know what I'm saying? Like if I stay in the water, like with somebody who's like, you just don't care, you're just inconsiderate, you just don't care, you're just inconsiderate. If I stay there, like I'm gonna start believing that shit because people play a big role in m who it is that I see myself as being.

SPEAKER_04 16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:54

And so uh for everybody's health, like I just probably won't spend as much time with somebody who sees me as inconsiderate because like I like I know that's not in my heart. And that's the last thing I'll say is there was a season in which like I would in some relationships like negotiate. Like, hey, or like I would it would be like a plea a a pleading, like yeah. Like this is getting on my nerve. You don't know my hurt by now. Like, why would you think that, you know, why would you think that I would do that? You know what I'm saying? Like, why would you even jump to that conclusion? Like, you don't know my hurt by now. Like, I don't whatever happened, and you I don't see how you could see that I could go there with it. That's very interesting. Like, I like I and then I would on the opposite end, like, I know your hurt. So I know even if you did such and such that like that you didn't mean to make me feel a way, like, and it's not the priority, isn't like I'm gonna make you feel like this. It's like the priority is you try to advocate for yourself, and maybe it came out weird. You you know, like that's the level of like consideration and understanding. I I seek I is the foundation for the relationship. Yeah, and and then recently like I I said it out of my mouth, I'm like, hey, I know my hurt. I know my heart, and I think I might have to prioritize being right. Yeah, you know, and that and it's it sucks when somebody's like, you're da-da-da-da. And it's like I really care about you and I really care about what you think about me, but in this moment, like I I know my heart, and I'm sitting here trying to get you to like, you don't see my heart, you don't like I'm not seeing my heart. And my shit being tainted because I'm continuing to get your feedback and I'm taking it to heart. No, it's my heart. I know what I mean. I know what I'm like, I know, I I know, you know. So yeah, it's a weird line.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

It's a weird line to Well, I don't think it is a line, yeah. It's just like a water that you're swimming in, but it's like it's brackish. It's like the um, you know how the salt water and the and the freshwater like come together. You have you heard that term before, brackish?

SPEAKER_05 18:49

No, but you have a lot of marine biologists in your family, so I'm sure that you live in the yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

Well, and you know, when in Tampa, like the like Hillsborough River, which is like, you know, you and I were on that river, right? We walked walked down that river walk. That is brackish water because it connects the the freshwater to the saltwater, the ocean. And it's so interesting what ends up in there because like there are animals that live in saltwater, that is where they thrive. There are animals that live in freshwater, that is where they thrive. When you find brackish water, the salt is kind of rising and falling depending on different things like tides and weather and stuff like that. And so that's where those animals sometimes end up in the same place. Like you wouldn't normally see an alligator with a dolphin, because dolphins live in salt water, alligators live in um freshwater, but in that brackish water, they both might be there. So I think about like this this water that we're swimming in here is very much the brackish water because it is. It's like a combination of like you do, you have to know your heart in order to end up back in the water where you know that you're gonna survive the best. But also, that doesn't mean you avoid the brackish water altogether because you want to have those, you want to bump into shit that you don't usually bump into because that's the thing that reminds you who the fuck you are. That the thing that reminds you, like that's where you gather the evidence and strengthens your ability to continue to be the person that you want to be because you're, you know, it's it's a muscle. It's like it's it's not something you can just be like, I am a good person and therefore forevermore. Everything I do is good. It's like, no, I have decided that I am and I believe that, and now I need to make sure that my actions match up with that and the constant turning that over and looking at it is part of it. And knowing whether you're which water you thrive in is part of when somebody else gives you that feedback, having the ability to be like, I hear you and I care about you enough that I'm gonna listen and I'm gonna look at it, but I'm not gonna just take that as truth because my who I am is in here too, and I know and I know who I am, and so I can now compare it and see whether it's B B behavior I need to change, or if maybe this is just water I don't belong in.

SPEAKER_05 20:42

Yeah, yeah, and you can't do any of that without people. So welcome to the friendly, the buddy hood.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Um The brabbish water that we swim in.

SPEAKER_05 20:52

Moral of the story anything is possible in Florida. Okay, going to the last segment of the show. It's the buddy corner.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

The buddy corner.

SPEAKER_05 21:05

Because I know you ain't got no question for me. That's the third episode in a row. No, you don't, you lie.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

I do too.

SPEAKER_05 21:10

All right. Well, my question for you is you can make an instrument, a new one. What instrument is it and what sound does it make?

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Ooh. I ooh.

SPEAKER_05 21:25

The level of wonder in Liz's face right now.

SPEAKER_03 21:29

I played the French horn from fourth grade to twelfth grade.

SPEAKER_05 21:33

How do I do how do it sound wear where?

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Hmm, maybe it could sound like that. Now I want a croissant. No, well, it's it's like a deeper trumpet. It's a brass, it's a brass instrument, and it's got a big bowel, like the big where the sound comes out. So, you know, think of like a tuba, but like not as base. Um but also think of little fourth grade skinny freaking Liz carrying around this goddamn French horn that was beside. Of me all around, you know, man, it was I don't why did I choose that instrument? But I loved the French horn. So I love the French horn, but the thing that I I I wanted the French horn is great as it's it, it's it's not usually the star of the show, it's usually s a supporting character. So I feel like I don't know, I think I'd want the French horn that like you sit on your lap and you're kind of like holding it like a big giant baby that like I can transformer into like a trumpet. So it's almost like a like you know how transformers they're like a robot and then they're also a car. I want a French horn that like I can like kind of origami into a into a trumpet for like to to take different parts depending on so yeah, I wanna I I that's probably a cheating answer, but okay, all right. Alright. Um if you can't. I want to answer the question too. Okay, but I want to ask you what your animal you're gonna be, and then you can answer both.

SPEAKER_05 22:50

Okay. So I would make a Spanish horn.

SPEAKER_03 22:54

A Spanish horn.

SPEAKER_05 22:56

Instead of going why a cross horn, it'd go okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

I think they have trumpets in Spain, in his head. So like they they do have those instruments in different countries.

SPEAKER_05 23:13

I'm talking about a Spanish trumpet.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

A Spanish trumpet. Okay, there you go. We got our Transformer instrument and our Spanish trumpet.

SPEAKER_05 23:21

Welcome to the the dad joke era of Bryce III.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

How many or four?

SPEAKER_05 23:27

What's your question?

SPEAKER_03 23:27

What animal would you be?

SPEAKER_05 23:29

I'm so traumatized from this question.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

Oh, I'm sorry. You don't know if that's right if you don't want to.

SPEAKER_05 23:37

Are we talking air, land, or sea?

SPEAKER_03 23:43

We are. We are talking land, air, or sea.

SPEAKER_05 23:45

You gotta like, because I feel like I got an animal for each one.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

Well, yeah, but that's a big part of the question, I feel like, is where you would like to do it.

SPEAKER_05 23:52

I would so right now, so right now, I would be one of these um these wasps. Because for for some unfortunate reason, they're like these underground burying wasps right in my front yard. And they've made like over by the rock garden. And so that's what I'm kind of like, because this is a garden where like we put these little painted rocks, and then people in the neighborhood will come and like take one or put one. But like the wasps' nests are like right there, so I'm trying to figure out like if I'm gonna let them stay. Because everything I found is like let them stay because they take your other pest that you don't want, but also if it's in a high, high foot traffic area, stage that might be something to address, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

And so it's like you know I'm going up somebody's pant leg.

SPEAKER_05 24:36

Right. But I do want to see what they're doing in there, you know. So I would be a wasp just to kind of go in here and be like, hey, what's going on in here? What y'all got going on in here? Why why did y'all pick why did y'all pick my front yard? This is a thousand million houses on my block. Why did you pick mine to burrow in?

SPEAKER_03 24:54

So you want to be a wasp so that you can ask the wasps some questions. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:58

Maybe go, maybe start like a diplomatic process and and maybe start like a voting process as to should we even stay here? Because there's probably a lot of better places to go, you know.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

You're like Ant-Man only, yeah. Like I'm gonna go in and recruit my other ants. I don't think I actually saw that movie. So yeah, for the same thing that's how Ant Man worked.

SPEAKER_05 25:20

Well, appreciate you all for listening. Uh, like I say, a good time, but a lot of long time. We're gonna let Liz go and hang with the homie. Um, we appreciate you all. Go follow the show so you make sure that you get all the newest episodes to your earlobes as they drop. And I don't know. Go do the We love you. We love you. Go go go go dance. Try to dance today. If you if you if you if you if you've never shaken your booty. To a standard trumpet. Start start with one cheek and just you know, just kind of like you don't gotta shake your whole booty, you can just twitch your cheek. You know what I'm saying? And until next time, we'll catch you on the next episode of The Friend Lab.

SPEAKER_04 26:04

Bye.