EP 12 Secrets, Seduction and Consequences: When Love Gets Complicated

In this compelling episode, author Allyson Collins sits down with Dr. June Johnson, a member of the Eta Chi Kappa Book Club, for an engaging discussion about the novel Entangled Indiscretions. Together, they explore the complex themes of love, temptation, betrayal, and emotional accountability that unfold throughout the story. Through thoughtful dialogue and reflective questions, the conversation examines the motivations behind relationship indiscretions, the impact of secrets, and whether trust can truly be restored after it’s broken. This episode invites listeners into a powerful literary conversation about human vulnerability, difficult choices, and the emotional consequences that come with them.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Welcome to Page to Pulse. I'm your host, Allison Collins. Today we're going to be taking a deep dive into my novel, Entangled in Discretions. We're going to dive into the emotional layers of the novel: love, temptation, betrayal, and the consequences of choices that can change lives. Joining me today is a very special guest, Dr. Johnson, an educator, a respected voice, and proud member of Ada Chai Kappa Book Club. Dr. Johnson has spent years engaging readers and thoughtful discussions about literature and the human condition. Dr. Johnson, welcome to Paige Post. Thank you. I'm very happy to be here. Now let's start with your first impression of Entangled Indiscretions. When you began reading Entangled Indiscretions, what immediately stood out to you about the story?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Immediately was the uh the history that uh the main character was going through with his father. And I'm thinking maybe his old adage, he was constantly talking about it, uh, like father, like son. Yes. And it seemed that um he was he was going to go the opposite way of what his father did.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

But we'll see. Yeah, yeah. Now many readers have strong reactions to the main character, one of the main characters who happens to be Travis that you're speaking of. And uh he's very complex and flawed. How did your perception of him evolve throughout the book?

SPEAKER_01 2:13

I I admired his uh tenacity to want to do better. Uh he wanted to do better for his mother, he wanted to do better for his brothers and sisters, their whole living condition, because when the father left, it left them in poverty. And um he was uh excited, he could have gone to the streets, but uh going to the military, uh taking that path. Uh, I admired him for uh his sticking to the program and getting through with high honors and things. That was very active.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

But yeah, but what happened? Because we had some very interesting discussions around his character at the book club meeting this past Saturday.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah, he like I say, he was very admirable, he he seemed to be focused, and I think that idea of the way he focused uh changed his trajectory with his relationships. And um then, of course, once he accomplished and he felt accomplished, he graduated, and of course, his condition, the money started flowing. He probably sent money home to his uh mother and sisters and brothers, and they were proud. And of course, he became the example for his uh younger siblings, and but the ghost of his father just came back to haunt him.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Yes. Now let's talk about the character Gabrielle. Now she shows emotional strength, uh, she loves deeply, but she also has to comfort painful truths about the person she trusted. How do you um, with Gabrielle's character, how do you see her? She represented loyalty and uh very vulnerable. Um, so what did you admire most about her character?

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Uh again, she was a beautiful young woman, but she didn't let her beauty uh detract her from being a decent person. She she could have been a spoiled brat, but she was very uh focused and she she knew where she wanted to go and uh how she wanted to get there. Of course, I believe she wanted to carry on the uh her background that she grew up in. Uh, so she was willing, and her vulnerability was that she wanted a mate uh with similar backgrounds that would keep her in in a pretty nice position. And of course, she probably she was very faithful to her family, and um she had to make sure that whoever she chose was going to be okay with daddy, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah. In your opinion, what drives people towards indiscretions in relationship? Is it the opportunity, dissatisfaction, ego, or something deeper?

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Um it's it's something deeper. And unfortunately, uh much of the things that I saw in in this particular instance, and even in some of the experiences I've had with people, um their satisfaction is superficial. It is not intrinsic, they are not intrinsically happy. They're always looking for some something in the back of their mind that says you're happy, you're satisfied. And um of those things have to be developed as you grow older. Nobody had a hobby, nobody did anything for anybody. Now, Gabrielle did, and I believe that's the way she grew up, but Travis didn't have that. He was on the selfish side, he was always doing things that satisfied him and not other people other than his family.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Now, the title entangled in discretions suggests something that's complicated in terms of uh complicated mistakes. What does the word entangled mean to you in the context of this particular story?

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Well, just the word entangled mean he got tied up in something that he couldn't that was difficult to get out of. And uh for Travis it was uh women. Yeah, yeah, and he he liked women and he liked variety, yeah. And um, you know, I thought about this earlier. I I don't know if you've ever heard it, you know, womanizers, yes, uh he they they know you only see somebody that's attractive to you about three times, then in today's vernacular, you ghost them. Yes, and so Travis did a whole lot of that. He he went for the cutest uh whatever the whatever his choice was, and he got entangled in all of that. Yes, he did. He was quite busy.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Yes, yes, every chance he could get. So womanizer definitely fits this character. Uh, one thing readers often debate about is the emotional versus the physical betrayal. Do you think emotional infidelity can be just as damaging as physical cheating? Because when we talk about entangled, and we talked about this on uh last weekend, um, I said oftentimes when a person before they actually commit an act, when it comes to discretion, they start to really think about that in their mind.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yeah, um emotional, um emotional uh infidelity is the kind of the first one that shows up because you know I want to be free to go and do whatever it is that I want to do, and now you you're here and you know they find some excuse to to go out and do this and that, and then when uh the wife or the girlfriend makes some demands on them, they you know, then that's where these emotional uh demands. And I believe uh they talk a lot about that with these young people about the dating. They want to keep you over in the corner, they don't want you to go anywhere, but they go everywhere, and so um, you know, you grow folks, you kind of get tired of that, yes, and uh so that's what happened. Yeah, uh you you may never know about a physical uh indiscretion, but it shows up emotionally because the person is tied up, they kind of show you I'm stepping out emotionally because they don't want to be with you anymore. That's true, but but they don't want to tell you I don't want you.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

You think it's difficult for men to really relate that more so than women? You what are your thoughts about that when they don't be in a relationship? You think it's more difficult for men to convey that?

SPEAKER_01 11:00

No, uh women um a lot of time women don't think they nobody will love them. It's it's in nowadays it seems like women feel like it's harder to get a man because men can get a woman because they're 10 women to one man, especially a man who's successful, who might have a little something.

SPEAKER_04 11:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

There's plenty of men out there, but they're not all you want to catch. Right, and so uh women tend to stay longer, even though they're uh cheated on, or emotion the emotionally uh things, they they have telltale signs, and then uh unless he's not if he comes in now, he's beating you or you know, give you a smack here and there, or just absent physically, uh as far as marriage. You know, he does nothing to satisfy my needs as a woman. He's always gone, doesn't have time for this, that, and the other. And so uh exactly what Gabrielle did eventually when she caught on. We leave in the middle of the night or the middle of the day. We don't speak up and say, I know you don't want me, I'm out of here. Because sometimes there's a little fear that if you really tell them face to face, that's when you know uh the domestic violence might come about because they don't want you to leave.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

And Travis didn't, he was doing everything he could to get her back because he couldn't believe that she would leave. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

So now it's obvious in our in the book club discussion that everyone sympathized more with Gabrielle. Was there any type of sympathy for Travis at any point?

SPEAKER_01 13:17

You know, there was one subject that we did not get to. And the fact is that Travis got sick. Yes, and he had to have some surgery, yes, and uh so people would say good for him having that surgery that stops a whole lot of stuff. Yes, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Because gallbladder, gallbladder cancer.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Well, I thought he had, was it gallbladder or testicular or yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

He had um he had actually he had cancer and it was um gallbladder. Can't uh I think it was gallbladder if I remember correctly.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yeah, I thought he had um I may have changed it. Yeah, you you changed it because he had um uh what do you call it? Yeah, he had cancer, and I he had prostate cancer. It was prostate cancer in the book, yes, and and and and they uh went in with the knife, the surgery uh to take out the prostate. Well, a lot of men who who get that condition, they have a nerve there to make sure that they can uh perform when in the healing process. Right. And we didn't discuss that at all. We didn't get a chance to discuss that. Good, good for Travis, but Travis didn't wait long enough to see if it was really working, right? Right. Because Gabrielle had left when he found out he was ill. Yes, yes, and so you know, now he was hey, they cut me, I'm healed, the doctor said I'm good, let me try this out.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

And so then stuff started happening, things start happening now, yeah, now at any moment um in the book surprise you in the book club that sparked um any type of heated discussion? Was there anything in the book that you all maybe disagreed on as a group in the book about certain things when it came to the discussion on the characters?

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Uh yeah, some of the disagreement I think went with uh Travis's friend. You know, where do where do friends come in when when you know you're doing wrong? Um now Gabriel's uh girlfriend was was always there, you know, girl, whatever you want. And I think the young man, I forgot his name. Richard. Richard, yes. Richard was always there. Richard was a great example, but Travis didn't want to live the way Richard did. Yes, and so uh he couldn't do that, and and I thought about it today, uh, when they were in school in the Naval Academy, uh, and Travis broke up with Gabrielle saying, you know, uh you're a distraction because the distraction was he was uh felt the responsibility to always call and go, and you know, it was Gabriel, and he he didn't want to be tied down, so he broke it off with her so that he could womanize. Yeah, and and he he did that womanizing in the Naval Academy while while he was studying, right? Because when uh casual relationships, you don't have to call anybody, you don't have to go nowhere, you know, you just do them any kind of way. It's sort of like a piece of paper, you just crumble it up and throw it away. That's true, and and and that's and that's what he did. And then after he attained a certain stature, I guess I'll go back and get her, and there we got it. But I I I think the uh there was no sympathy for Travis.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Well, I guess not.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

No, well, the thing is, Travis was too far in, yes, and he didn't know how to get out. That's the entanglement. You know, when you get tied up, you can't find your way out. Yes, that's true. So that that was it.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Now let's talk about accountability. Do you believe that Travis truly understood the damage caused by his actions?

SPEAKER_01 18:31

He didn't get it until Gabrielle left. If she had stayed, he would never have seen it. No matter what she did, you know, have having the baby and and all of that, and making them, you know, the the American dream family kind of thing. He didn't get it. He liked the baby part a little bit, but he didn't, he still didn't want to be tied down, and he did not get it until Gabrielle left. And to to have because she was she seemed to be a dedicated wife. She was cooking, the house was clean. I mean, she was the the candy on his arm everywhere she went, she was a beautiful woman, and then you come home and it's no noise, nothing, no food, and he's not smelling any onions in the kitchen, nobody in the bedroom, yeah. Yeah, it's like no baby crying, no baby. It really slapped him, and that's the only way. Um, I I admire her that she finally got to that point. But um uh it it took a lot, she took a lot before she finally said, you know, this is this is hurting me, and I gotta go.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

Isn't that typical of many women who are in marriages and relationships that are toxic and they stay for the sake of the children? They stay because they don't have the education. But I can't really say that now in our in the generation today, there's more educated women, particularly the most educated women and the United States is African-American women. But do you believe that um there's a reason? What is the reason why some women do stay?

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Well, I I can even give uh personal. I had a uh a marriage where my husband was ill and became uh not uh the emotional abuse of you know, everything was because of me. All of his ills were because of me. And um being the Christian woman that I am, you know, you you stay. But on the other side, on my side, I could have left. My I saw my other friends who divorced their husbands with kids, have the hardest time in the world, uh, not just financially, but emotionally, and the emotional part for the kids too, because now they had to go somewhere to see their father. And you know, the back and forth, the back and forth with the kids. Sometimes they they send you some money or you know, to help support the children, and then now she's got to go out. Thinking there must be somebody out there for me. So now she's gotta do this double duty. I gotta get rid of that one and try to find a new one. And it was terrible.

SPEAKER_04 22:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

And I had to weigh whether that was what I wanted, or if I was able to find some the my happiness in this situation. And so I chose my situation.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Thank you for sharing that with us. Yeah, you know, I think that a lot of women, and and I believe it's generational, a lot of women in my um mother's generation, my grandmother's generation, they stayed in the marriages, and regardless of what was happening in the marriage, many of them stayed in their marriage because they did not want their children to suffer and suffer in a sense that not having um the two-parent household and being in a broken home, um, as many referred to. And there was definitely a difference in the changes that evolved after the 70s, and of course, now you have a divorce rate is absolutely ridiculous, over 50% now of first marriages and in the divorce, unfortunately. So it seems now that a lot of the younger people don't even want to get married anymore. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Yeah, the Gen Zers and the Millennials, it doesn't seem like marriage is on is as is as important as it was 50 years ago, 30 years ago. So a lot of them are doing well financially, and I'm not sure the reason why many of them have the uh interest in being single today, but many of them prefer not to get married these days. So that's quite interesting the difference in the generations. Now, forgiveness is a very powerful but oftentimes complicated concept. Do you believe forgiveness always leads to healing?

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Well, you know, when people say that, uh forgiveness might be an instantaneous thing that you do, but the healing takes time. You think you're healed, but the healing part where you can move on and carry on, it's it's the thought pattern of where the healing comes is when the the thought of it doesn't hurt anymore. And that can take time. It's sort of like grief. When you're grieving, it takes time. I mean, you know, people think you get over it, but you still think about it. And and again, when you can think about it and it doesn't hurt, it doesn't bother you, then you've truly forgiven. Uh it is complicated because some people think, you know, you forgive and forget. And even God forgave, but he didn't forget. History, you know, historical facts are there. But again, uh, what makes it it's powerful, it'll the healing will let you move on and find happiness or whatever it is that you're looking for or satisfaction, but it's not instantaneous. It's you know, year, five years, ten years. Uh how many families have you seen were hurt like Travis was hurt uh in in the story? He thought he forgave his father for leaving. But did he? He forgave him on the you know, very superficial, but it wasn't deep and intrinsic enough that he would change his behavior. He became just like his father.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

He became the very person that presented as a child for leaving his mother that this completely destitute, with no money, no means of anything, and and broken, and um and just leaving the family, and just totally devastated the family with leaving the family. Now, in your view, what message do you think readers should take away from the story about relationships?

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Um to examine yourself, you know everybody wants to be loved by somebody, you know, but what do you bring to the table? And and it has to be more than an education and the ability to make money. You know what what is it? Are you are you ready? I mean, I I see young women who can't cook, but they want a relationship, you know. Uh we when we were in high school and had a cooking club class, we used a real oven and real pots and pans, and now they don't have ovens. They don't have economics programs in schools. No, they call it something about living, but they're using the microwave. And even the stores have bought into that. I I I just went in here, I bought those little bitty tiny potatoes there in a bag that you can microwave. You know, just put it in there. Um, I buy rice now because it's just me, and it only takes 90 seconds in the microwave. You know, my mother put we put on a pot. Well, you know, it was a whole bunch of people, but uh the the convenience that uh that are around us keeps from doing things, but yet still we'll watch all the cooking shows on Saturday or any other day, the cooking network, and and they're chopping up real vegetables and doing all this kind of stuff. So, but you know, uh I I've run into women say, Well, my husband loves to cook, so he does all the cooking. Well, that's good. Whatever you got to offer, that's what he likes, and and so forth. But at least both of you have something to bring to the table. Because, and it's not you can't be based on beauty, that's true, because we get older and and the bags under the eyes and the the neck, they come, yeah. Hair color, well, we can take care of that. That that's not a problem, but uh yeah, you really have to like that person, and uh the for me uh religion is very important to uh you you find that for me it I found that satisfaction with that, and uh so you know I brought a lot of things to the table. I was married for 35 years, and uh we did good, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

In spite of that's remarkable, some people in spite of some people can be married for 35 seconds, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Um that that's a whole nother training and and story, yeah. But you know what you can put up with, yes, and and if you're emotionally able to leave that the situation, uh now women who are physically abused, you know, get out as fast as you can. Um but emotional abuse is sometiming, sometimes they will and sometimes they won't. Like I say, my husband was sick. If he was having a bad day, then it was a bad day for everybody. But when he had a good day, we we were fine. Yeah, yeah. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Were there any parts of the book that resonated with the other members, including yourself? Um and any parts of the book, or I know everyone liked Gabrielle. Was there anything personally about the book that resonated with members of the book club?

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yes, the um at the beginning of the book when Travis went back for Gabrielle, it incited a lot of stories around the table about uh yeah, about getting, you know, you put me down, you threw me out, and now you're gonna come back and and pick me up like nothing happened in between. Yeah, that that was a very uh anxious and uh part of the book of you know, why would she do that? And she liked Travis, and she had another suitor, yes, Chad. And you know, Chad showed up again. Chad was the first one at the door when she got when she left Travis. Yes, he he was hanging around, but and and and Chad was saying, like, whenever you're ready, I got you. Yeah, waiting. What he was waiting in the wings, he knew what he wanted, yeah. And he wasn't gonna do her like that, right? So, but she had to believe that.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

Yeah, yeah, that was it. Now, if you were able to give a Travis, a person of Travis or Travis himself, any type of piece of advice before everything unfolded, what would you say to Travis?

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Um Travis needed uh therapy and he didn't know it and made I don't know if it was offered back then, uh uh when it was, because uh men, uh black men, uh you couldn't get them in a psychologist's office. That's true, you know. It had to be the law. Somebody with a a gun or something said you going in here, and that's why those judges say you go and see that person so many times. But Travis needed therapy. Um, I don't think he talked to his mother enough to get her side on how he felt. He just was a child looking from the outside looking in. Uh, but he needed to hear what his mother really thought. Uh and of course, it was hard on all of them because she didn't have the education or the money, and they had to move differently and everything, but uh he he still needed a conversation, and I'm not sure the parent was even wanting to have that kind of conversation with a child or a teenager, right? But um he never confided with his mother with Gabrielle that Gabrielle left. He didn't call up and ask, you know, cry on her shoulder or do anything.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

So um why do you think he never did share that? Pride. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

You know, he was he was the he's a captain, a lieutenant, whatever he is. He's got on this uniform, he's a good looking guy. He's supposed to have it all together, and he didn't want to change that image for his mother. Right. That yeah, uh, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Do you think that relationships can survive after there has been a betrayal? No.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

No.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Um in the back of our minds if you did it once. The first time was the hardest, and you got through that, you'll do it again, and it got easier and easier and easier, and uh no, no coming back once you walk out the door, that's it. You've done, you've kind of run the gamut of all the forgiveness and and uh you know thinking that they're gonna do do right, and something triggers it and it just keeps on spiraling. And once you decide to get out the door, what you coming back for? You already know. So uh no, it's time now. You can be friends, especially having a child together, right? And and there was there's every time you see him, you don't have to bring it up because more than likely he's gonna show up with somebody on his arm, or you're gonna see him out somewhere, and and you and so what you get sick and then you try to come back to me, yeah, so that I can do what take care of you? Are you kidding? Right, looking for a nurse, a nurse or a purse, right? No, no, now I'll come over there and give you a drink of water, but we're not staying in the same space. Yeah, you do you bye.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

Oh my goodness. Yeah, I agree with you. I think that it would be very difficult to survive in a relationship once there's been a betrayal. I think it would be in the back of your mind always. What if this person does this again to me? So I think that it would be very difficult for that relationship to survive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Yeah. I I do know some people. Yeah, I knew I do know some people who have married the same man twice. I know somebody too. How did that work out? Who knows? But if they're happy, God bless them.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Right, right. Um, so after discussing entangled indiscretions with uh Ada Kai Kappa Book Club, would you recommend this book entangled in discretion to other readers?

SPEAKER_01 39:56

I would do that with other readers on one condition, uh, Miss Collins. I think I know where this is going. Uh yeah. I think the entitled, the title should have included part one. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Well, you've heard it was a surprise. It was a surprise. It was a surprise. It was a surprise. Yes. Well, you heard it from Dr. Johnson. She recommends that you go out and get this book, Entangled in Discretions, and um drop a comment after listening to this um podcast and let me know what you think. Thank you, Dr. Johnson, for sharing your insights on relationships entangled in discretions. Certainly appreciate your perspective on the book club of uh selection entangled in discretions. Entangled in Discretions reminds us that love is very powerful. And so are the choices that we make with it. To everyone listening, thank you for joining our conversation. Keep reading, keep reflecting, and keep the dialogue going. Until next time. Thank you. Bye.