EP 14 Behind the Mask: Uncovering Hidden Narcissistic Abuse

On this episode of Page2Pulse, host Allyson Collins sits down with social worker Katie Wayte for a powerful and eye-opening conversation about the hidden realities of narcissistic abuse, inspired by The Narcissist and The Evil that Lurks Behind the Pretty Face. Together, they unpack the subtle signs of toxic relationships, the emotional impact of gaslighting, and why so many victims struggle to walk away. With professional insight and real-world perspective, Katie shares practical tools for healing, rebuilding self-worth, and breaking free from cycles of manipulation. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking clarity, validation, and the courage to choose themselves.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to Page to Post. I'm your host, Allison Collins. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about my book, The Evil That Lurks Behind the Pretty Face. Joining me today is my guest, Katie Waite. She is a social worker, and we're going to be talking about the book. So let's go ahead and get started. Welcome to Page to Pulse, Katie.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Now, today I wanted to get into my first question. We're going to be talking about narcissism and just getting more information and in-depth about what it means to be a narcissist. So, what does the phrase mean to you from a social worker's perspective?

SPEAKER_00 0:54

From a social worker's perspective, it's kind of like patterns of behavior that are that impact others in, I would say, a um sometimes in a secure way, but also creating a false sense of self and projecting kind of an image onto others, drawing them close to you, bringing them into you, um making them feel comfortable. And then once it's once you realize they're comfortable, that's when it's kind of okay. The narcissist believes it's okay to kind of start flipping the script. Um, they're comfortable, they're gonna stay. I've made them feel so good and feel so attached that now I can show my true colors. Yes, I can change my behaviors, change in the ways that I show respect. If I show respect, change how I communicate and view towards them. Um because I've made them believe that there's nowhere else better than me.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Why do you think that narcissists present themselves as being the ideal individual, very charming, um attractive, or perfect to the outside world?

SPEAKER_00 2:23

They narcissists rely on external validation. They need people to tell them, oh, good job. Um you're doing so well, you're beautiful, your work is outstanding, and so they're gonna project themselves in a way to people that they've never met before that they are for all intents and purposes perfect. They could do no wrong, they will go out of their way to help, they will go out of their way to um assist, to make someone feel comfortable, to give someone a sense of love and happiness and belonging. Um, I think they use this persona because they themselves feel like they're lacking, and if they act, nobody's gonna know.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Right. Now that contrast, the public image versus the public image, is something that is deeply explored in the book. How would you, um, when it comes to the narcissistic um the reality of narcissistic abuse, how would you define narcissistic abuse in a way that someone would clearly understand? Because some people may not understand that they're in a relationship with someone who's very toxic, that presents traits of narcissism and and and and and actually experiencing narcissistic abuse. So, how would you explain that to a person?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

I think one way probably to get it across would be to maybe ask them questions about their situation. Do you feel as though you need to regulate how you react to things so that they don't react in a worse way? Do you feel as though you need to present yourself in a specific way to coddle, I guess, what they are feeling or going through? Do you need to hold yourself back, push yourself down to build them up and push them forward? It are you guys growing together or are they growing off of everything that you are providing for them while you're still stuck in the point that you were when you met?

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Okay. Now, when a person is in the early phase of a relationship with someone who is narcissistic, what are some of the signs that are telltale signs that show that they may be in a um relationship um with someone? So what are some of the warning signs of that?

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Um, so like intense idealization, like love bombing there. You guys have met two days ago and you're in love already.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Um explain the love bombing.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Um, love bombing, it's oh, say I we just met and I find you to be romantically attractive to me. I'm gonna buy you flowers, take you out on a date. Oh, you want those earrings? I'll get you those earrings. You like those shoes, those shoes are yours. I will buy, spend, make, provide anything you want for you as much and as quickly as I can to ensure that you're not going anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

So it's it's creating this false sense of like, oh wow, I found somebody that loves me for me, will go out of their way to make sure I'm getting the things that not only I might need, but I want, creating a false sense of safety and partnership and trust before again just flipping that script. Um I feel like love bombing is a it's a very easy thing to not see in early stages of a relationship because when you're getting into a relationship, everything is just so uh, you know, everything is up in the stars and you're all heart eyes, and you don't you're not paying attention to some of the things that maybe you should be paying attention to.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah, and it is so important to look for those red flags because those warning signs are telltale signs that you're in a relationship that's not healthy. So why is it why is emotional and psychological abuse often more difficult to detect as opposed to physical abuse? It's harder to recognize in that case when a person is already in their relationship.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Probably most of the times, especially in narcissistic relationships, from my understanding, it's it starts off with denial. Like it was one time they've treated me like this, they'll never do that to me again. I love them, I know them. It was they're upset from this, it won't happen again. Um and then it goes to, well, it didn't actually happen like that. Like it, this is what happened, and it's just getting twisted up in translation. And so they're denying and they're changing events and they're trying to downplay how it makes them feel, and trying to make it seem as though they're not the victim. Like it's okay. The behavior that this person is portraying onto them is okay, that they're okay with it. Um, because this narcissist has brought them in, they've made them feel close. They've sometimes in extreme cases, they've pushed everybody else in the um victim's life away. They've made the victim cut ties with family and friends and close relationships and have made themselves the one and only person in their life that that victim has nowhere to go. So they feel stuck. They're not gonna talk about their feelings, their emotions, they're gonna continue to downplay everything because they feel as though they have nowhere to go to get help from.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

So the narcissist's goal is to isolate them from family and friends so that they can perhaps have total control over the victim that they are victimizing. Okay. Now, can you talk about gaslighting? What is it and how it impacts a person's um mental health?

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Gaslighting, that's saying like say you are in a relationship and you guys get into an argument, and he he or she breaks something in the argument out of anger. Then it turns into, well, I wouldn't have done that if you didn't make me do that. I wouldn't have acted this way if you didn't act this way. Well, I didn't I didn't mean to break it. I was just you you saw wrong. I just was turning and my hand accidentally hit it. I didn't break it out of anger. I was just there, it's little things to twist what they kind of know, making it making the victim confused in themselves. They're gonna the victim is gonna start second guessing. Well, did it actually happen or was I making that up? Did I actually see that, or did my brain just tell me I'm seeing that? Um, especially because again, and most times these victims are so isolated and so alone, they have no one else to confide in or talk to to kind of give them this backbone to stand up for themselves, they're gonna go for the gaslighting some of the times. They're gonna be like, you know what? Maybe I was wrong, maybe I didn't see it correctly, maybe he didn't break it and just smack out anger, maybe he was genuinely just turning and knocking it over.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Yeah. So so they're they take on the role of this denial stage when they are being victimized. Um, what happens in the long run with these victims of narcissistic abuse?

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Um kind of a complex trauma. It loss of self-trust, emotional dependency, they're confused in their self-identity. It's like the narcissist has gaslit them and made them believe that they are not them own selves, they are just an extension of the narcissist.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

So, like, and I mean that's just my understanding. So it's like and especially for like relationships, you know, once they've got them isolated. Oh, you're we're a package deal. We go together, you don't go anywhere without me. Um they uh what's the right word I'm looking for? Codependency.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Codependency.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

There's a lot of they don't feel as though they can depend on themselves or they depend on the narcissist. Um and there it leads to like a place of not being able to come back into being able to support yourself and stuff like that as well. Um gaslighting it's just I kind of lost what I was saying there.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

No, it's okay. Yeah, but you know, one thing I I highlight in my books uh in my series about uh narcissism is that how survivors often question their own reality, you know, like you were alluding to that and talking about that. So um, which is one of the most damaging parts, you know, when it comes to the victim. So let's get into the book and talk about the character in the book. So this book centers on a case study of Dr. Catalina Sanders. She starts off with that. She's at a conference, and then she uh gets this alert about one of her cases. And she talks about uh, then she started working on this particular case. So let's get into it and tell me what your impressions are of the book and what are your thoughts about um the book, The Evil That Lurks Behind a Pretty Face. Because not many people really have a tendency of thinking of females as narcissists, it's typically males. But let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

So I was I was happy that we were it was female narcissism being talked about. When I was in school, it was a lot of male narcissism being talked about and not a lot of female narcissism. Um, so I was glad that it's touching on this too, because it is an issue, it does happen. Um, females can be narcissistic, and it's not just males who are the victims, you know, other females can be victims as well, like in this book. Um so the book, I I enjoyed it. I really I tied it back into a lot of the stuff that I had learned during school, like, oh yeah, we talked about this, this is this, kind of a thing. It was really uh it was really fun for me to read. Um I like it's kind of a twist too, you know. You wouldn't think the narcissist is who she is at the beginning of the book, you know, to find out that it is um Dr. Catalina, you know, um, and how she kind of uses her her role and her power and her position to kind of guide um her client.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

So um I would say, what am I looking for? I'm looking through my notes really quick.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yeah, so yeah, you know, Dr. Catalina, she's um presents in this book. She was actually a character in my previous book, too. And that's the book about the narcissist who happens to be a doctor, and so she presents in that book, and then she's uh has a role in this book as well, and she studies this patient, Layla Johnson, who is a very interesting uh character for her in case study for her. Yeah. So uh why do you think that why do you think people do stay in these type of relationships? Because, you know, there's obviously you would think that most people would get out of those type of toxic relationships. And why do some people just have a tendency of staying in there um when there's something wrong? Clearly.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

It could be a lot of factors. Uh, like I said again, it could be they've been isolated from all of their like their village is what I would call them, the people that like rally behind them. Um there could also be children involved, you know. Yeah, yes. Not wanting to separate the children from another parent, wanting to have a whole family. Um, it could also be like financial stuff, you know. If I leave this person, am I gonna be able to support myself? Yes, I have family and friends, but they're not in a position to financially support me until I'm on my feet. Am I gonna be able to figure it out without being a burden to these other people who I know would love to help me but are not in the place to help me?

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Right now, how does trauma bond uh form and why is it so difficult to break?

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Trauma bonds form because you guys are going through something so similar in the exact same moment, and you your emotions they might not be the same because nobody's emotions are ever the same, but they're so close to being aligned in that moment that you guys feel like this is it, this is the one thing that connects you forever. And so, you know, every time somebody asks, Oh, how did you meet? We went through this really bad experience together, and because of that, we're never gonna not be together. And it's like building a relationship based on a trauma bond isn't a very healthy thing because it's like, Do you know this person? Are you trying to get to know this person, or are you just going off of this version of this person that you met during this drastic time in your life that now you have formed an attachment to? It's like, do you know them? Is this what you actually should be doing? kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

So when it comes to self-esteem, how important is that and how does it play a role in these type of relationships with people who are narcissistic?

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Self-esteem is it low self-esteem just can increase vulnerability to manipulation. Not believing that you could do it on your own, survive on your own, say you have kids, not believing you could provide for your kids on your own, making them have a good life, putting them in the things that they want to do.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Belief that say nobody you believe nobody else out there will love you. Who's gonna love me after this person loves me? Like what if there's nobody else out there for me? Having these kind of lower thoughts about yourself, oh well, I'm not that pretty, or uh, I'm not that smart, you know, I didn't go to school, that kind of thing. It makes it easier for the narcissist to kind of target those things about you. They're gonna pick up on those insecurities, I guess, and they're gonna use those to keep you there. Who, like um the not having anybody else love you. Um sometimes the narcissist will talk and they'll be like, Well, without me, who will you have? Who's there for you? kind of and throwing that back in their face, using that as a way to push them back down, keep them where they're at.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Now, typically on the outside, when people see individuals that are in those toxic relationships, they're wondering, like, okay, why didn't you just leave in a situation when you're dealing with someone who is very toxic and narcissistic? Um, what would you recommend when they come to healing and recovery? What are some of the first steps a person should take if they happen to be in those type of relationships when someone you're in a relationship with someone who is toxic and narcissistic?

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Um steps to take after, I believe, after coming out of something like that were first and foremost therapy. You're gonna need someone to talk to about it, an unbiased person, someone who didn't know the partner, uh, didn't know the lifestyle, just someone to talk to.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Um having a support group, like I said, that village, people to lean back on in that time. Um, because you don't know what to trust, who to believe, who's there for you, who actually has your best intentions at heart after coming out of a situation like that. It's very vulnerable and very scary for the victim. Um and so it's finding that village, finding those trusted people to lean on, and then setting clear boundaries for themselves from now on, I believe it'd also be a very important thing. You know, a lot of boundaries had been crossed in that situation for them. A lot of things were out of their control. So I feel like establishing, you know, this is where my line is with things from now on. And if this line gets crossed, then I have to step back. Right. That I feel like would be another really important step to kind of reshaping and refinding who the victim is after a situation like that.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

And I think you hit on the part about danger, and it's so important to have a plan. So if you're presenting with someone who's a narcissist who's also abusive, um, and a malignant narcissist being one of the most dangerous types of narcissists, um it's important to have a plan. If you don't mind, you want to talk about some of those different types of narcissists, uh, personalities, like the malignant, what is a malignant narcissist, for instance? Yeah, so a malignant narcissist, or um, there's like different types of narcissists that present. And you know, sometimes people who are narcissistic um present in different ways, and and so it's really important to be able to have an understanding because a lot of people don't have uh Understanding of what narcissism is, and and then also with uh the different types of narcissists, too, that are out there.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Yeah, so um we'll start with malignant then, since that's the one you touched on first. I would say they would be the ones that kind of are they're the ones that are gonna kind of isolate you, they're gonna combine narcissism with antisocial traits. Um, they're gonna manipulate you, they're gonna intimidate you, they're gonna exploit your insecurities, and they're gonna kind of continuously just keep you down, push you down, use most of their tactics to put you down. Um they are the ones that are probably the most emotionally and psychologically abusive with their kind of behavior patterns and traits and stuff. Um let's touch after malignant. There's grandiose, grand, um grandiose, I think is how it's pronounced.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Um, yeah, grandiose narcissists, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Those are the I'm important, I'm special, give me attention. Um, they're the ones that are looking for compliments, they're the ones that feed off of that verbal validation. Those, oh my gosh, you're so beautiful, oh my gosh, your food is so good, oh my gosh, you're so great at your job. Um they're the type they're bragging and they're boasting, and they're always right. Nobody else's opinions matter. They're what they say, that's it. Brightened in stone.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Yeah, yeah. So it's important to be able to recognize, and there's several different types of narcissists that are out there, and it's important to know. And maybe on the future show we can get dig more into that, the different types of traits. Um, because I know I kind of like threw that out there, you know, since we were talking about the malignant one, though the characteristics of one. But what are some practical ways that survivors can rebuild their uh self-worth and identity from your perspective as a social worker?

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Um prioritizing oneself, you know, finding the things that they enjoy again, getting back into um social clubs and stuff getting out of like, say, that self-isolation if the narcissist was isolating them, um getting into a space where what the victim thinks and feels and needs is most important in their mind, whether that's doing that through therapy, whether that's doing that through again finding hobbies, tasks, they need to first and foremost build themselves up. Yeah. Um, and really heal the inner trauma before they can focus on the things that the narcissist also took away from them in their like outside life as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

And speaking of trauma, is it typical for a person who is a narcissist, maybe have experienced some type of trauma in childhood that has led to them becoming a narcissist? What are the reasons why some of them become a narcissist?

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Um narcissists become narcissists for a lot of different reasons. Whether it's, you know, they come from a narcissistic environment and that's all that they ever knew growing up growing up, whether it's they had a good childhood up until one traumatic moment, and that just changed the entire way they function.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Whether it's they've been put down so much in their life, the only way that they feel as though they can build themselves up is to push another person down. Um I think there's a lot of different ways narcissists become into that narcissistic behavior. I don't feel like narcissists are just born that way. I feel like they're molded that way. Molded.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Yeah. So it could be a parent that is very uh has uh narcissistic personality disorder. It could be a parent that's like um worshiping the ground that their child works or walks on, uh, giving them constant praise, and or it could be a situation that happened, like you alluded to, about trauma, some of the things that may have happened to that child. And they are stunted at that age. Yeah, and and one of the things I hear that um with narcissists, it's hard for them to regulate their emotions, and that is something that is typical. And we see it in the book, The Evil That Lurks Behind a Pretty Face, that the character in the book has a tendency of blowing up, and she has a difficult time to regulate her emotions. And um what are some things that if you have a a client that presents with being able not being able to regulate emotions, what are some things that can help in terms of being able to deal with that situation when they have issues with that?

SPEAKER_00 27:50

I think first and foremost, meeting them where they are. You can't push somebody who struggles to go beyond what they feel comfortable with. That's when they start to really get overwhelmed by their emotions. Um, so meeting them where they are, keeping them where they feel comfortable, that's a good way to kind of avoid an emotional outburst in such a way. Um another way would be maybe ask maybe I want to say I was gonna say talking to them about that's meeting them in the middle again. It's kind of just this like it's in the way that you approach them, I feel like that signifies how they're going to react based on everything else.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

If you approach them in kind of a way where it's like, well, we're gonna do this and this and this, and this needs to get done. Okay, and it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Okay, okay. So, what advice would you give to someone who is currently in a situation with um a narcissist and they're feeling stuck or afraid to leave a relationship?

SPEAKER_00 29:08

That it's leaving relationship, especially a narcissistic relationship, is not just like a split-second decision.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Um it's a process. You need to have a safety plan, like we had touched on earlier. You need to build a network of people, that village again to help you once you're out of there. You need to know, say you don't have that village and you are gonna be on your own after leading this. You need to know what resources and information they are locally and communal community that to help you because say you don't work, say you are financially like dependent on this person, like you are gonna need to know what the community offers to help you build yourself back up. Um, and then again, just seeking that professional help, whether it's therapy, online support groups, that kind of thing, um, making sure you're talking to someone about what you went through, that you're not bottling it up and that you're not holding it in because that kind of stuff will eat away at you. It'll just eat at you.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yes. Well, this conversation has been a very important um because so many people are suffering in silence, and they don't have to deal with that type of relationship. They don't have to, and they're dealing with the emotional abuse while maintaining this perfect life. So my hope is that they'll be able to read my books on the series, The Narcissist, uh, or the evil that lurks behind a pretty face and get some insight on what strategies that they should put in place and be able to recognize the red flags of a narcissistic relationship with someone so that they can find ways to exit out of those type of relationships. Thank you, Katie, for joining us on Page to Pulse. It's been a pleasure having you as a guest.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Thank you for having me. It was fun talking about this. I really enjoyed reading the book, and you know, like I said again, tying it back to everything that I've learned. I've I love reading, I love learning, I love being a social worker, and so getting a chance to tie all the three of those things together. It was a fun moment for me.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Oh, well, we've enjoyed having you on page to post. And if this episode resonated with you, please pass this information on to someone, and there may be somebody that can be saved from these type of relationships. Until next time, protect your peace, trust your instincts, and remember everything that looks good isn't always perfect. Thank you for joining us on Paige DePaul. Take care.