What Kung Fu Teaches Us About Learning

More than self-defense, punching or kicking, kung fu is an ancient art that holds within its practice a winning formula for discipline, integrity and balance. Shelly sits down with one of her mentors and martial arts instructors, Master Ian Chisholm, a 6th degree Tien Shan Pai black sash, Vice President of the U.S. Kuo Shu Federation, and career public school educator, to discuss the overlap between the practice of kung fu and its applications in the world of education.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Welcome to Uncommon Minds, where we sit down with truly amazing innovators and unique practitioners across common fields who think outside the box and carve their own paths to success. I'm your host, Shelly Henriquez-Neal. Let's lean into another great episode right now. There aren't too many people that I can say truly walk the walk of whatever they're about. And I more often meet people who struggle with that task and have complicated ways that they try to balance it all. So I'm really happy to be able to introduce you today to someone whom I've come to know as one of the walkers who embody much of what they practice and teach. Ian Chism, or Master Ian Chism, as I've known and have referred to him for the past 15 years, is a Kung Fu practitioner who holds many accolades in that space. Way too many to name, but here are a few. He is a 65th generation disciple of Grandmaster Huang Xin Liang. He is a sixth degree tension pie and world quoshu federation Black Sash. He is the vice president of the U.S. Quoshu Federation. He was the 2019 U.S. Koshu Federation Hall of Fame Inductee. He was the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Outstanding Achievement of the Year. He was a recipient of that award in 1992. He co-authored Introduction to Tenshen Pai. Master Chisholm is also a multiple-time chief referee, an outstanding international referee, and referee instructor for the World Kuoshu Federation, which is a very rigorous and very highly regarded referee certification path for Chinese martial arts full contact fighting. As a career educator, Master Chisholm has taught in Baltimore County Public Schools for over two decades, and he continues to support the school system as an advisor for teacher evaluation in their Department of Staff Relations. He is a devoted family man and one of the most admirable, humble, and inspiring people I've ever known. He is truly a great person to be around and learn from. And I am so thankful to welcome him with us today on Uncommon Minds. Master Chisholm, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Thank you so much. Yeah. It's great to be here. And thank you for having me. I'm really honored to be here and to get the invitation to participate in this. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Absolutely. So we always start the same way on this show where we always want to hear about our guests' origin story or a little bit of their origin story. More specifically for you, how and at what point in your life did you turn to the practice and the study of martial arts?

SPEAKER_01 3:01

It was something I had been interested in since I was younger, probably uh even before I was a teenager. Being a kid who grew up in the 70s, I watched all the kung fu movies on Saturday afternoons and had some friends who studied martial arts. I always wanted to, but never had the means to do so. We couldn't afford lessons when I was a kid. I didn't have any way to get to a school even. So I did what I have always done is I did the best I could on my own. I used to try to get books and study. I would actually ride my bike to the local mall, which was like seven or eight miles away on busy roads. I shouldn't have been doing this. I was like 12 years old. But I would get books and supplies and things and try to learn anything that I could. It wasn't until I was in college, in my second year of college, that I found a local martial arts school. And you talk about finding a diamond in a pile of rocks. This was a school that was a phenomenal school, a world-renowned teacher, and just an incredible place to study. So I started in 1989, and that was the beginning of my journey.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

That's incredible. That's a great story. I mean, the dedication that you had at such a young age, without even really knowing the depth of what you were about to embark upon.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

I had no idea what I was in for. And you know, although she didn't say it, Miss Enriqueznio is also an accomplished practitioner who studied at the U.S. Quoshu Academy where I was and studied internal arts, Taiji Trend for many years.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Yes, yes, yes. Thank you. Thank you for shouting me out there a little bit. Yeah, I ask about the origin story because so many of us, I mean, I know I did too. For me, it was the last dragon with Time Mac. But those movies are really an entry point, right? For many of us who become practitioners for a very long time. Right. What do you think it is about martial arts that is so appealing to some people, but not others? What is it that you've found, or have you even thought about that?

SPEAKER_01 5:12

No, I have. And it's funny when we talk about the movies because they're a little bit of a false flag because you you see these characters who are heroic and you watch the movie and you get the sense that they're almost superhuman. And that was, you know, I mean, quite honestly, that was my interpretation when I was younger, and even when I first began to study. And it was kind of part of my fixed mindset that I had at the time, which was what I didn't understand talent being based on skill, that it was effort-based ability. I had always been under the belief that people who were good at things were gifted. It was natural. The greatest athletes, even people that I knew growing up who were good athletes and they played sports and were really successful. I just I thought it was just they had that certain something. Sure. What I came to realize through martial arts was that there is no certain something other than practice, that we all have the ability to be exceptional in some way if we apply ourselves and if we put in the work. So I I think that was what has kept me involved for so long, too, because knowing that effort-based ability is one of the keys to success, I found that that also began to transfer not just from my study of martial arts, but into everything else that I did. But the martial arts was the catalyst for that. It was the culture, it was the actual training that we did and what that instilled in me that began to just become part of the way that I did things.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Right. That's fantastic. And you really sort of lead us into a couple of questions that I wanted to ask in the next segment here, which is really kung fu beyond the performance of it or the practice of it, right? So it's the philosophy. Martial arts or kung fu literally means skill developed through time and effort. Right. It's almost a literal translation. A lot of people don't realize that. And I love that what you're talking about is the fact that this definition becomes a mirror for your life path, especially if you dedicate a lot of time and a lot of energy to it. When did kung fu shift for you from something that you practiced to something that you lived?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Pretty quickly, actually. And I attribute that to the culture of the school and my teacher. When I did first start, I fell in love with it pretty quickly. I loved everything about it. I loved the camaraderie of my classmates. I loved the tradition. I love how respect was such a key element and really the most important element of the training. I loved the physicality of it. And it was interesting because when I first started taking classes, I could only afford to go twice a week. And I loved it so much. I got a second job on campus so that I could have more money to pay for more lessons. And I got to the point where I could take classes three times a week, and then you could go to the school and work out on your own or with partners anytime it was open. So I would take my three classes a week, and I was still there every day that that school was open. I just I loved it that much. And what I learned was that there were standards that were just in embedded in the martial arts and in that school. And the standard was the standard. There was no flexibility around that. There were expectations. And the expectations was that you would work hard enough and meet the standards. And if you met those standards, then your access to your teacher and more advanced training kind of came with that. In a way, I learned that it was always a test. Everything was a test. It was how consistent are you going to be in your training? How evident is your practice going to be? And that your teacher was always watching. Even if you didn't really see him much or interact with him much, he noticed when you were there. He noticed in class when you had been practicing because he could tell you can't fake it.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

So what that really began to instill in me was that growth mindset. And then I began to see that, you know, I can get better at this. I can do this if I'm putting in the work. And it was just at that time of my life, it was exactly what I needed. Because in college, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I didn't have a career path carved out. My path of going into education was almost simultaneous with the martial arts training. I went into education as a sophomore. When I was in college, I went down that pathway towards an education degree. And the two complemented each other so well. Yeah. Because what I was learning in class about, because eventually I became an assistant instructor. It taught me how to lesson plan. It taught me how to manage time. It taught me how to engage students. And at the same time, I had this great model of a teacher who set very high standards and communicated very high expectations. Absolutely. And it just kind of lit a fire in me where everything after that, where I had gone from someone who didn't always necessarily apply himself and didn't necessarily have a lot of motivation to try to strive for excellence. Now I did because I saw that that my effort was being recognized and I was learning more. And so I started just doing that in everything that I did, in my studies, in working towards becoming a teacher. And when I did eventually become a teacher, a classroom teacher, I always wanted to go above and beyond for my kids. I always wanted to do more. So that was where I first started to notice. And I remember talking to classmates about it too. I said, you know, this is just kind of a finding that this training is spilling over into other areas of my life. And it's really creating this just drive to really strive for excellence, whether I achieved it or not all the time. But I made the effort to do so.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Yeah. I love hearing you say that. And I think that it really truly, if you get it, you get it. And if you've lived it, you understand. I'm thinking about what you're saying, and I'm like, gosh, you know, I remember when it happened for me. You know, you'll be in meetings at work, and all of a sudden you're like, gosh, I didn't respond to that the way that I used to respond to that. What's going on? And you start to realize that your training is informing exactly how you react, respond, not react. When you're physically training, you don't think about it. And it just sort of seeps into you and it shows up when you least expect it.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

It manifests itself in so many different ways. It's and it's not just the physical aspect, it really is the mental and emotional aspect as well.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

And again, I think a lot of that is just because our school and my teacher was so focused on respect and character development as the primary goals of training. The physical aspects of it were important, but that was more the vehicle.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

The outcome was really that character development. You know, again, it was the best thing I ever did for myself.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What aspects of kung fu are often misunderstood? Other than the fact that you've got a bunch of people running around going, yeah, exactly all the time.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

I'll start with my own misconception, which was again going in, not knowing anything about martial arts. I always believed it was this set of secret techniques. And if you just took the lessons and learned the techniques, they'd all work and you'd be invincible. Nope, not at all. Again, everything was about hard work. And yeah, you learned techniques for self-defense, but if you didn't practice them, they weren't going to work. And so you would learn, you try it, it would work sometimes, it wouldn't work sometimes, and you had to become really reflective and think about you had to practice mindfully. And I used to tell my students this all the time when I was leading a class, and I would say, when you practice, what are you thinking about? Are you going through the motions physically, or are you thinking about what you're doing? And in being reflective, you begin to notice what's what's working, what's not working, and why it's not working. So then you have to begin thinking. Yeah, my teacher used to say you can't really reach a higher level of understanding without teaching. Because when you teach, it's one thing for me to be able to do it, but to help someone else understand it.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

And to also help them see what it is that they need to refine to be able to provide them with that feedback. I need to understand it at an even higher level. And then when they struggle and they ask me questions, again, I need to have that deep understanding. So teaching really is a complement to learning. And the more you teach, the more you really do learn as well. That I think is the biggest misconception that there are no easy pathways to anything. It's all hard work. But if you apply yourself, you can be successful. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

When you talk about the fact that if you don't teach, you really won't understand what it is you're doing. That is something that in practice is very difficult. It's very difficult because you are going to run into times where you don't know a question that's asked of you. You don't know what the answer is. What aspect of kung fu prepares you for those times? Because you can certainly walk around thinking that you should know the answer to, or you ought to be prepared in the classroom when you're asked a certain question. But the reality is you won't be. Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Yeah. And I've encountered this in education as well as a consulting teacher when I would work with new teachers. We used to refer to this as imposter syndrome, which is when you're in a mentoring role, a coaching role, an instructional role, there's pressure to feel like you always have to be able to provide the right answer. Sure. And the reality is that a lot of times the answer lies within the individual. And you have to facilitate, help facilitate their understanding of that and help draw that out of them. But a lot of times the answer just lies in practice. And when people ask you questions and things like that, sometimes one of the best things to do is to turn the question back to them and say to them, Well, what do you think about that? What conclusions can you draw from this feedback that I've offered you? Because building someone's capacity to be reflective helps them become a better learner. And it's also okay, and this used to drive me crazy when I would see instructors try to explain something that you knew they didn't understand either. And it happens, right? People will ask you questions. And it's being humble enough to say, that's a great question. Yeah. Let me think about that. Or that's a great question. Let me ask someone else who may understand.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

And as a teacher, that's part of that student-teacher relationship that you have to honor. That I'm not going to give you an answer that I've made up because I feel like I have to give you an answer. I'll give you an answer if I have an answer. If not, guess what? I'm going to reflect on it. I'm going to go practice and look through that lens of your question. And then I'll come back to you with an answer because now I understand it.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

And that's okay. Yeah. And that's the character piece too, right? So this is directly connected to who you are as a person. But there's also a lesson to be learned there if you stumble and you fall into the trap of, oh, I made this answer up. Talk to us a little bit about how martial arts influences your presence and your work as an educator.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

One of the biggest lessons that I learned as a martial artist was perseverance. We have a student creed that we say at the beginning of classes to remind us of the character traits we're trying to develop through our training. Perseverance is one of the most important ones. And it's very, very true because we don't fail until we stop trying. You're not always going to be successful the first time, maybe not the second time, but you always have to get up one more time, then you've been knocked down. That applies very much to teaching as well. Teaching is one of the most complex, emotionally exhaustive endeavors you can engage in as an adult. There's an organization that that we work with quite a bit now, and the organization is called Research for Better Teaching, and they've been around since the early 1970s. And everything they they talk about is about high expertise teaching techniques. And one of the things that they talk about in one of their courses is they ask people, say, how many decisions do you think a teacher makes on a daily basis? Right. What would you say if you had to answer that question?

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Can I answer the question with a question?

SPEAKER_01 18:30

I guess, but then I might ask you a question back in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

I would say on a daily basis 100.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

And this is based on research. Over 1,100. Whoa. On a daily basis. Now, if you think about it, these decisions can be sort of microcosmic, right? Kid raises his hand. I have to go to the bathroom. I lost my pencil. What am I supposed to do? There's 27 of these questions going on at the same time, too. Thinking about how I'm going to respond to a student who may be acting out, thinking about how I'm going to respond to a student who doesn't get it. Thinking about what I'm going to talk to that parent about who wants me to call them about their child's progress, whatever it is. It's really, really hard. It's a hard job. And burnout in education is a major thing. We are facing a crisis right now. And this is not just local, this is national. And we kind of are riding the crest of this wave that's been coming for over two decades, where we have a teacher shortage. And put it in perspective, I started working for Baltimore County in 1991. That was when I first became a classroom teacher. The following year, they actually had a hiring freeze because they had too many teacher candidates for positions that were available. Wow. For the last several years, it's been a challenge to fully staff schools. In addition to that, the vast majority, and again, this isn't nationwide, the vast majority of new teachers are unlicensed, which means they did not go through a traditional teacher prep program in college. So they may have a degree in some content area, but they haven't learned the art of pedagogy, of how to deliver instruction. And that creates even more of a learning curve. Now I went through a traditional teacher prep program, and I'll tell you, I learned to teach being in the classroom. Yeah. It's a real boots on the ground, in the moment learning curve. Yes. So considering all the challenges, in addition to the background that a lot of these new teachers are bringing, it's really, really hard. What kept me going for those 20 years that I was in the classroom and then, you know, the additional time beyond is perseverance. It's really pushing through the challenges and accepting those challenges and again being humble enough to realize I'm going to make mistakes. Right. I'm going to make mistakes along the way. Every teacher who's a veteran looks back at their first year and kind of cringes. And they say, Oh my goodness. At least I don't think I damaged anyone in my first couple of years. But if I knew then what I know now, I could have done a much better job. Of course. And that's normal. But perseverance is one of the most important lessons that I've learned. The other is humility. And humility, I've always kind of said it's my favorite characteristic of all the different things we try to develop in martial arts because I really do believe that the more you learn, the less you know. I've only ever studied from one teacher. Started over 35 years ago. And people sometimes said, You ever want to study a different art? You want to learn from someone else? I said, Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

I said, I have no, I'm still working on the things that I've learned. I've learned enough to last me a lifetime.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

I could practice 24 hours a day, every day, and still have things to work on. He's just been he's incredibly knowledgeable, been incredibly generous. Was sharing his knowledge with me. And, you know, I always am looking at what can I do better? What can I do better? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

And it's the same thing with work.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

It's the same thing with teaching. Again, like I said, there's if I knew then what I know now, I could have been better. But that's part of the journey. It's being a lifelong learner. Yeah. And even when you get to a certain level, always knowing that there's more to learn.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Yeah. Yeah. When you say if you knew then what you know now, you'd be you'd be better. Is that really the mindset that you carry into your conversations and your guidance that you're giving to newer teachers? You're thinking, let me help them and give them just this little bit more or this different type of guidance to help them see further than what I had when I started.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yes. And as an instructional coach, having it's really a peer-based relationship. This is not evaluative, it's not supervisory. It's peer coaching. It's instructional coaching. And in doing so, there's so much to learn with that too, because you learn about adult learning theory and what adults bring to the table in their learning. You learn about navigating relationships, you learn about providing objective feedback that's databased from your observations of the teacher, but also understanding and being able to read someone's capacity, someone's skill level. How much feedback can I provide this individual that's not going to overwhelm them?

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

And if there are five different things that I have observed that I think would be beneficial to help her improve, well, which of those is going to have the greatest impact? What's my entry point to coaching? So there's a lot of other things to navigate there. I will at times use myself as an example, especially if there's something I can show about a mistake I made. Because sometimes I think you have this relationship and someone is a mentor. Well, at one time I was far from that role. Sure. I was a newbie and and I still look at myself as learning. I learned a lot mentoring teachers. I watched things they did. And I was like, wow, that's a great strategy that they just used. And they're applying their learning that from the feedback conversations that we've had. So yeah, it's helping people along, I think, is one of the most important roles in the school system today, is being able to help support new teachers. And I did a research project a few years ago that was really looked at teacher attrition rates versus teacher retention rates. And it studied what the reasons were that teachers left and the reasons they stayed in the system. And the common thread that ran through all of those, it wasn't about now, this may have shifted a little bit post-COVID, but at the time, it wasn't about salary, it wasn't about student behavior, it was about the amount of support and the level of support that teachers perceived they were getting. Interesting. So to me, that was when I also started looking at the opportunity to use feedback as more of a vehicle for growth and development over evaluation, and really looking at this feedback that we could provide teachers with as a way to help them improve. Because as the teachers improve, student achievement increases. It's that simple. The teacher is the most important factor towards a student's success. So if we can help our teachers continually improve and help them become reflective so that eventually, when they don't have that coaching support, they've developed the capacity to be reflective and to apply their own learning. And that's one of the most important things we can do for students.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Yeah. Yeah. You talked about burnout. What are some of the patterns that you see repeatedly in teachers who are overwhelmed or overcapacitated in any way?

SPEAKER_01 25:47

And again, this was pre-COVID. And I did see a shift during and after COVID, but pre-COVID, which was the majority of the research that I have, it showed a pattern in years one through five of a teacher's development. And it was a rising curve in attrition. So there's a certain number of teachers who would give it up after the first year, before even the first year was over. It seemed like that number would rise up to year five. And then if people got past year five, there was just something about that number, then they would usually stay. COVID shifted that a bit because the shift of virtual learning was a challenge for a lot of veteran teachers. So teachers who weren't as comfortable with technology or had been teaching in person for 20, 30 years. Now we're faced with this shift to virtual learning. And I think the transition was a little easier for younger teachers, newer teachers, because they were just better with technology, probably attended online classes through their own education. So they're a little more familiar with it. But it there's a lot of things that contribute to teacher attrition. Like I said, it's levels of support. I I will say salary is has always been an issue. Sure. And it's unfortunate because these are conversations we were having when I started over 35 years ago. And we're still having them today. Yeah. And people always say, oh, teachers should be paid more, teachers should give it. But it still hasn't happened. I mean, there are things in place like the blueprint for Maryland's progress and things that are trying to raise the standards for a teacher's salary and things of that nature, but it's also hard because of budget constraints. Teachers are constantly facing curriculum changes. They do face a lot of student behavior issues that are very challenging. Kids come in and a lot of kids come into school with trauma and they bring that emotional stress with them. And I will say that in coaching a lot of new teachers, the one thing that I always shared with them was we look at teachers, teacher proficiency based on certain standards. And one of those standards is really about motivation, classroom management, that whole classroom environment. And while we say that none of the standards are necessarily more important than any other, and they're all interwoven, the one that has to be in place before anything else will happen is that classroom environment, is creating a positive environment for kids, building personal relationships with students and not these transactional relationships where teachers have this perception of the kids should listen to me because I'm the teacher. Right. I would remind them, I say, look, that wasn't a thing when I was in school. And I'm a lot older than you. Yeah. I'm really good at remembering things that are meaningful to me. I'm really bad at remembering where I heard it. So I won't attribute things correctly. But there's something that says kids don't care about how much you know until they know how much you care. And that is absolutely important. If kids don't think you care about them, if they don't want to be in school, and a lot of them don't, let's face it, the distractions nowadays are much better than the distractions when I was in school, and half the time I didn't want to be in school. Yeah. But if kids want to come to school, if it's a place where they feel valued, if it's a place where they feel connection, if it's a place where they feel like there's at least one adult in this building who really cares about me, who I can go to, and especially if it's their classroom teacher, they will do much better. Yeah. Because I can plan a phenomenal lesson. I can be a top-notch instructor. I can have really extensive and deep content knowledge. But if I can't connect with my students, I'm gonna have problems. Yes. And that learning is not gonna occur the way it should or the way it could.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Yes. You know, what's interesting is as I'm listening to you, I see the one-to-one comparison or the parallel, I should say, between what you were saying was the reason that teachers that there was a retention issue. They felt like they weren't supported, like they weren't seen or heard. That in turn contributes to what their students are feeling.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Right. So the very thing that creates a sense of greater dedication or loyalty or then that retention is the exact same thing that creates a greater sense of attention, and I am interested and I want to come to school. So the teachers could actually learn something from their own experiences and what would make them want to stay in it.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

That's the same thing that the kids in your class are feeling and experiencing.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Oh, absolutely. And there's a there's an organization called the Cast Group, and they work with universal design for learning. There was this concept of universal design that came out in architecture that made things accessible, kept accessible, curb cuts, ramps, things like that. So education followed suit, and they developed this universal design for learning, and they look at three functions of the brain, the three different networks within the brain, and they look at means of expression, means of representation, and means of engagement. And that engagement is the affective network of the brain. And when they first developed this framework, that was in the last position. They intentionally shifted that to the first position because they discovered through neuroscience that you have to get that network to fire. You have to get those neurons, the affective network to engage in order to learn. Wow. Once you engage that, then you set the brain up to be receptive to new information. Wow. But if you're not, if you're not tapping into that affective network first, it's gonna be a bath.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Right, right. Liken that to martial arts and the training and teaching of martial arts. And I have to say, when you talked about remembering certain things, but not necessarily remembering who to attribute them to, almost every single month, I will say month, because it's not every day. There is a quote that you shared with me when I was starting out teaching martial arts. And I was telling you how overwhelmed I was with coming up with lesson plans. And there's so much I want to, oh, I want to put all this in there, and I just don't have enough time. And you said it's not so much about what you want to teach, it's about what you want them to learn. Absolutely. I'm glad I said that. Oh my goodness, I have never forgot it. And I will talk to people all the time and I will say it because it's it is so applicable to so many different things, right? And as a someone now who facilitates a lot of workshops, I'm constantly going, okay, you need to and doing train the trainers for other people who lead workshops, I'll say, Oh, you gotta pair that down. Yeah. What do you want them to walk away with? Exactly. But when we talk about teaching in martial arts and also in the classroom, there's this whole person perspective that you just have to be aware of, right? And you just talked about that affective part of the brain. And what is happening there when it comes to martial arts? And you talk about it, you have very, very traditional martial arts and the way of teaching and learning there. How are you getting there when it comes to teaching martial arts?

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Yeah, it's what I discovered in whether I was teaching kids, whether I was teaching adults, whether I was teaching martial arts students, it all begins with building relationships. And you do have to lead by example. Again, my school was just such a wonderful place to learn because I had such the people there who were the leaders, especially my teacher, just looked up to so much because as you said, they were walkers, they walked the walk. And I was fortunate enough in that school to also have a lot of great, there were other instructors in the school and classmates who I think to a large extent, because of my involvement and because I was there like every day and working really hard, they kind of noticed that. And they a lot of them kind of took me under their wing. And not just in helping me train, but in helping me understand the culture of the school and of the martial arts, which again was embedded in respect, respect for those who came before you, whether it's the system founder, your own teacher, your instructor, your senior classmates, what you begin to find is like I'm just respecting everyone. Right. And my peers, the newer students, because I was shown the right way. Now I know how to interact with others as well. And it within the martial arts, because that structure is there, and you teach students about that a lot when they first come in, and it's consistently emphasized. That never goes away. We're always talking about respect and we're always really trying to instill that in our students. So I already had great models of the type of person I should be. And from my own experience, whether it was through martial arts or whether it was through being a classroom teacher, I also understood the importance of building relationships. And because my students, I think, knew how much I cared about them, I could also really push them. Right. And that was about having those high standards and high expectations and being able to, you know, and a lot of the students that I worked with went on to be really, really successful in the martial arts. And that's always a teacher's greatest. And again, this is not from me, this is from my own teacher. That's a teacher's greatest success is seeing your students be successful. Right. Because that's why you do what you do. That's what teaching is about.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Absolutely. Absolutely. How do you define leadership now compared to earlier in your career?

SPEAKER_01 35:40

It's a continuing evolution. When I the first master's program I started was administration and supervision, which would have put me on track to be an assistant principal or a principal. I never really aspired to be anything other than a teacher because I loved it. I loved being in the classroom. I loved working with kids and helping them grow and become confident in their abilities. I had to do something because you have to get a certain number of credits for an advanced certificate or an actual degree. So I was sort of guided this way by people I respected, and they said, Oh, you'd be a great principal. You should do this. Okay. I got within six credits of completing that degree, and I didn't finish. Not that I think not finishing things is good. Yeah. But there were also other things that got in the way. Again, martial arts was more of a priority to me at the time. So there were some semesters I didn't enroll and take classes. This was taking forever. Yeah. But what I came to realize during that time was I am not yet understanding leadership well enough to do this. And the more I saw what that job actually entailed, let me know that I don't think this is what I want to do. So that was okay. But what I have learned about leadership is in my own personal beliefs about it, in leadership roles that I've had, I really believe in flattening the leadership curve. I think that's really important. And again, I think that goes back to the values I learned through the martial arts, which is respect and humility. It's about empowering the people around you. And I know a lot of the most successful leaders today will talk about that. I surround myself with the brightest people I can find. I surround myself with the most positive people I can find, not like toxic posity, but actual positivity. And you have to listen. You have to listen. If you want to lead, you I feel like you earn the right to lead in anything. Absolutely. Leadership is not, I mean, it can be bestowed upon you, but you have to earn that right every day. And every time I got up to teach a class, I realized these people are here. They're coming for their own. And you get to know the students. You know why they're there. I want to lose weight. I want to get in shape. I want to compete. I want to be able to protect myself, whatever the case may be. You're trying to help them reach their goals. It's a huge responsibility. Right. And as a teacher, you're always a leader. You're always a leader, whether it's in the classroom or on the martial arts floor. So as a leader, you have to listen, you have to know the people that you're leading, and you have to earn that right to lead them every day.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Right. Absolutely. Big responsibilities for sure. When we talk about the lineage, when I did your introduction, I talked about you being a 65th generation disciple of Grandmaster Huang Chin Liang. There is a responsibility that comes with being a disciple. Yes. That is very much about leadership. It's don't get it twisted, folks. Not because you're the disciple means that you don't have to lead your part. Right? I don't know. So that responsibility really is steeped in carrying the teachings and carrying the lineage and the philosophies forward. Talk about what that looks like or could look like.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Yeah. Becoming a disciple is the highest honor for a student. And a teacher will only accept certain students into what's essentially an inner circle. And that is based in our system, anyway, with my teacher, it's based really essentially on character.

SPEAKER_03 39:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Have you shown yourself to be loyal? Have you shown yourself to be a hard worker? Have you shown yourself to be consistent and persistent in your training? If you are invited to join this group and you're accepted as a disciple, it also means that you're making a commitment. One of the reasons I've done this for so long is because when you become a disciple, you take an oath. And that oath is all about helping your fellow classmates. It's about supporting your teacher. It's about obeying the rules of the system. And this comes directly from the oath and relaying the torch, which means someone came before you and has shown you the way. Right. Now it's your responsibility to continue that legacy. So you're representing your teacher, you're representing the style, and you're representing the values that that style is founded upon. So it's a very serious responsibility, incredible honor, but with it, like they say, with a lot of things that come with some level of prestige or leadership, it's really a big responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Yeah. And I think it's important for people to know that it's a responsibility that is rooted in service. Right. A lot of times when in the classroom or outside of it or in the training hall, one thinks of leadership as, okay, well, that's it. I've carried all the jugs of water that I can carry and everything's good now. Somebody's gonna bring me a jug of water, and you know, and that's what it is, but it never really stops, right? That service continues. And I think that's an important part of, you know, you've mentioned humility so many times, and that's really what it comes down to. So we've come to the part of the episode where we ask a signature question. We always ask our guests a question that really ties in what being uncommon means in terms of your work and your daily practice and beliefs. What is an uncommon yet daily practice that you think people could benefit from greatly, but unfortunately a lot of people might ignore?

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Yeah, and a word discipline. And I can explain this in someone else's words. This was actually really interesting. So my understanding of this was developed through my training, through working with my teacher and through my practice. Years later, I actually discovered a book that it didn't teach me these things because I had already learned them through martial arts, but it affirmed what I had learned and sort of articulated it in a way that that I could do or that it was better than the way I could say it. As a book by a guy named Stephen Pressfield. He's an author. And the book was called The War of Art. War of Art. You know? Yes. Okay. And I was intrigued when I first saw it because I, you know, I was familiar with The Art of War by Sun Tzu. And it was this sort of play on words. And I was like, well, what's this about? I recommend it. It's a really short read. It's very simple. But he talks about this concept of resistance. And resistance is a force that's always present in our lives, and it shows up strongest when we're trying to move from a lower level to a higher level in anything, whatever your the endeavor is. So the first key to having discipline is being able to recognize resistance when it shows up. Resistance shows up in a lot of different ways. It shows up in the form of procrastination, explaining things, rationalizing things. You know, there's all sorts of different impulses and feelings we get that signal resistance. And what I found is that resistance, you know, our brains are wired for comfort. We're wired for safety. And that's good. It protects us. But instead of looking at it as an alarm signal, look at it as an alarm clock. Because what it's telling me is the reason I'm rationalizing, the reason I'm procrastinating, is because what I'm thinking about doing is good for me and it's difficult. So he gives a few different points about how to overcome this resistance. And the first is to show up consistently. Again, related to what I've told students, you get more out of practicing consistently. You can practice for three hours today, but if you don't practice again for two weeks, that's not as valuable as practicing for 30 minutes every day. Right. Because you're going to build that muscle memory, you're going to build consistency, and it's going to be constantly in your mind. Even if you're not thinking about it, it's bouncing around and you're so confident. And you're reflecting on things and you're thinking about how you can get better. The second point is to act in the face of fear. And again, going back to what I've talked to students about when they had to compete, demonstrate whatever it was, and they're like, I'm so nervous. I'm so scared. They're like, Do you still get scared? So, yeah. Do you still get nervous? Uh-huh. It never goes away. You learn to control it. It's okay to be afraid. You just can't let it control your actions. So that's important also to show up in the face of fear and to act on it. The third thing is where discipline really comes in, it's about structure. It's how do you structure your life and the most valuable commodity of your life, which is time. And time is an interesting thing because we've all said this before. You know, I don't have time, or I didn't do that. I didn't have time. I would always tell students, I would say, instead of saying, I didn't have time to practice, I didn't have time, say it out loud so you hear it, that's not a priority. Because the reality is we all have the same 24 hours every day. Right. You have time. How you choose to use that time is within your power. And when you say that and you say that's not a priority, one of two things is going to happen. It's going to make you feel horrible. It's not going to sit well. And you're going to say, I need to make that a priority. I'm going to change that. Or it's going to land and you're going to say, Yeah, I'm okay with that. And that's okay too. Because that you need to know yourself. And then after that, it's really just about two other things. One is detachment. Detach yourself from the outcomes of whatever it is you're trying to do. Lean into the process. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the journey. Your self-worth is not determined by the outcome. Again, to illustrate, when students would think about competing, they'd be on the fence. I don't know if I want to. I don't know if I want to. I said, no. You don't have to want to, but you have to do it. Yeah. Sign up to compete, register now. Make the commitment. And we say to them, what are you going to do if you make that commitment? And they say, well, I'm going to practice. Why? Because now I'm going to be out there and I want to be ready. Yeah. So whether you win or lose is not important. The gift you're giving yourself is that you're going to be much better than you were had you not made that commitment. It's the difference between a dream and a goal. Difference between a dream and a goal is a timeline. I can have an idea and there's something I want to do, but until I attach a time frame to it, it's just a dream. Right. Once I say I want to do it by such and such a date, now it becomes a goal because I have my outcome in mind. I just have to pursue it. And the last point of fighting resistance is to just do it.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

A old Nike motto, right? It's so true though. Don't wait for what you think is the right time. I can say right now, oh, I should go to the gym, you know, but uh man, it's a really hard day. I need to give myself a break. I'll do it tomorrow. What I just did was rationalize and procrastinate. Got the double whammy. Now I'm not gonna do it. Just go. I want to start working out, but I I think I need to lose 20 pounds first. No. Because what we do when we do that is we spend our whole lives waiting for these moments that never come. You're never gonna have the best opportunity. You're never, it's never gonna be the right time. Yeah. Just jump in. You'll swim. You're not gonna sink. You're gonna swim. And that was for me, when I read that, I was like, that's what I learned.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

Through my martial arts training. That was how I really was able to do what I did and to do it for that long because I had learned to overcome resistance. Right. And that was through the culture created at the school and through our training.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Absolutely. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for that. Master Chisholm, thank you so much for taking this time and for continuing to be a representation of what inspires and what guides and impacts so many learners across martial arts and education. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

This has been great. Yeah. It was great spending time with you for another episode of Uncommon Minds. This episode was produced by Cheryl Tuesday, and it was written by Shelly Enriquez Neal. We'll see you next time. And until then, stay true.