Total Athletic Podcast

CrossFit Vs HYROX

• Mike Catris

Share episode

We size up CrossFit and HYROX without tribal noise, asking what “fit” really means when one sport changes the test and the other fixes the rules. We share backgrounds, pull apart energy systems, and map how both can raise the athletic floor and ceiling.

• hosts’ sporting backgrounds and aims for the show
• naming the Total Athletic Podcast and scope across training, recovery, and mindset
• CrossFit vs HYROX accessibility and skill barriers
• culture, ego, and participation categories across both sports
• CrossFit’s influence on hybrid training and gym design
• why HYROX is not “just circuits” and where it gets hard
• closed vs open skills and defining “fittest”
• glycolytic vs aerobic demands and pacing strategy
• the ideal HYROX athlete profile and crossover prospects
• how both sports can improve each other’s weaknesses
• growth, governance, media, and athlete storytelling
• our upcoming HYROX training plans and timelines

We are launching our eight-week HYROX prep program this weekend because it’s eight weeks out from Manchester and Amsterdam. We are also going to be launching a generic rolling calendar HYROX program.


Speaker:

Hi guys, welcome to the show. Um we say the show because we haven't even decided what we're gonna call it yet, not a clue. Um we're we've decided, I think, just now on uh the athlete. Sorry, we decided on uh just now um Total Athletic Podcast. Um just a full disclaimer on that, we've got uh a program coming out that's gonna be called uh Total Athletic Performance. So it just sort of ties in with that in terms of what we're doing. Um and I think the the whole premise is that we didn't want to ring fence ourselves into it that you know we're just CrossFit or we're just hybrid or we're just high rocks or weightlifting or whatever. We want to be able to talk about nutrition, you know, sleep, mental health, training protocols, recovery principles, and and everything sort of in between with that. Um so yeah, welcome to the uh the Total Athletic Podcast. Um, my name is Mike Cattress. I'm a former CrossFit Games athlete. Um, played a bit of professional rugby for a couple of years before that. Um, was in the CrossFit space quite early on from about 2012, owned a couple of gyms and affiliates, and I've coached, I think, 15 or 16 athletes to CrossFit games, sort of 22, 23 CrossFit games appearances over the last six or seven years. So um that's my sort of background. I am now an absolute novice high roxer, because I've done one. I've done two. Um, and uh yeah, my partner in this is uh is Matthew Ploughman. So yeah, I'm I'm Matt Ploughman. I am uh Jack of all trades, let's say. I've uh I'd love to say I have a background in a specific sport, but I'm uh bit of an everything man. I've played a lot of football, a lot of cricket, a lot of tennis, a bit of running, a bit of this, a bit of that, and then about gosh, a year ago now, came across Hyrux, the world of Hyrux, did my first doubles racing, would have been Birmingham or London this time last year, and I am uh yeah, fixed ever since. So I've uh been racing for a good year now, um, had some good times under my belt, um, recently got a 56, 56 open time in singles, which I think gets me in the top 30 times ever in the UK, which is cool. Um, but got big aspirations over the next 12 to 18 months of kind of hitting the pro races, um getting that obviously the the sub-hour pro, but also most importantly trying to get in that top 50 in the world in the next 12 months and and yeah, go from there. So that's the that's the plan. Um, but yeah, welcome to the podcast. Well I think we're gonna bit of like an all-rounder, isn't it? The all-rounder podcast here, there, everywhere. We're gonna speak about everything. Uh yeah, we're looking forward to it. Yeah, we should have called it the hybrid cross star fitter podcast. Yeah. Something like that.

Speaker 2:

Something like in between a bit of mismatch of everything.

Speaker:

So we're hoping you guys are like us and like to talk about anything and everything, because yeah, we'll be talking about CrossFit one minute, coffee the next, what we're having for dinner. Um, so yeah, hope you guys all enjoy it. Yeah, you don't want to hear what I'm having for dinner because it's the same thing every day. Yeah, you always eat the same thing. Yeah, that's very true. Um, yeah, so I think the we we we've had a little bit of a chat about this, it's kind of off the cuff, but we wanted to throw out some ideas in terms of you know what we we wanted to talk about ourselves because I think, like you just touched on there, if something we want to talk about, then it's more likely that people that are engaged in our sort of space or whatever you want to call it um are gonna want to hear or talk about the same sort of things. Um, and the the easy low-hanging fruit clickbaity type one to kick off with, based on our sort of backgrounds, if you like, was CrossFit versus HIROX. Um, and I don't want this to become a slanging match where I turn around and go, Oh yeah, but CrossFit's amazing because and HIROX is shit because, and and you sort of be able to find some the other way. It's actually the opposite of that. I think let's have a little chat about what we we like about each uh training methodology, sport, or whatever you want to call it, um, and what where we think that they need to improve as well, and yeah, just roll it off. Definitely. So, in terms of um you've never done CrossFit per se. No, I've never, I mean, I've come that's my keys coming out of my pocket. Um, so weirdly never done CrossFit, but I've always trained in a gym that does CrossFit, all my mates have always done CrossFit. Um, so it's something that I I know a lot about. I've just never never dabbled my feet, and I think the only reason for that being is probably up until a year ago where I fell into high rocks. I was very much aesthetics over everything. So push-pool legs. Did you do something like that? Yeah, I did a bodybuilding comp, gosh, 10 years ago now. Yeah, the junior Welsh Championships physique. Um, so I was very much aesthetics, and CrossFit to me was wouldn't have kept me in the shape that I wanted to be in, probably wrongly so, because it probably would have done. So I kind of stayed away from it. But I think the biggest reason for me was barrier to entry in terms of the skill sets. I'm very much, and I think a lot of people are the same, like they just want to get in the gym, get shit done, and that the thought of having to learn how to snatch, how to do this, how to that was probably my biggest hurdle. Um, it's there is a high skill set to CrossFit, and I think we'll probably delve into that, but I think that's probably the biggest disparity between CrossFit and HIROX is anyone could really do a Hyrux tomorrow in terms of skill set, with us CrossFit. It there is that barrier to entry, which is probably my biggest downfall of it. Yeah, I think that that's like touches on one of the things I was gonna say that is uh is definitely a pro to HIROX, right? Is the the accessibility. Um, and I know like you know, I came from a long time ago into CrossFit, sort of 2012. Most people didn't even know what CrossFit was, certainly not in the UK. Um, and there was a bit of a tagline with it that um CrossFit is for anyone, but it's not for everyone. So it's something that you know you anyone could do it because you can scale it and because you can do all of this sort of stuff. And and I don't disagree with that. You know, my my mum's done CrossFit, my sister's done CrossFit, and and they're not athletes by any stretch of the imagination. Um, you know, having coached and owned a CrossFit Gym for years, we've seen so many people come through the doors who are you would never ever associate with being athletes. Um, however, I do think that as soon as you start scaling things down, you're you're automatically with certain people and certain mindsets going to lose the room. You know, the thought of me coming in, um me personally, but you know, the the royal me, anyone coming in and thinking, oh well, I've got to go and do that while everyone else is doing this. What do they call it? Is it foundations or yeah, like uh yeah, fundamentals? Fundamentals, and that to me was like uh gosh, it took me back to like being a kid and going skiing with my parents for the first time, and like you spent half your holiday in in ski school. Yeah, and I but I do think that there was there was a um a natural weaning process with that, and I and it and it weeded out a lot of people, it weeded out a lot of dickheads to be honest. Weeded out a lot of people that came in thinking they were just gonna be amazing at something straight away. Um, and I think it it lent itself to a growth mindset because no matter how what your background was, like I said, I I sort of came sort of abruptly from from profession professional rugby due to an injury and went straight into CrossFit. I was very, very strong, very, very powerful and relatively aerobically fit, but I'd never done any gymnastics of any sort, even when I was a kid. So although I was very good at a couple of aspects when I came into CrossFit, sort of even compared to some of the the elite at that time, you know, there weren't many of those about. Um, I still had an awful lot to learn and an awful lot that I had to work and practice on. And if I just went in there thinking I was just gonna wipe the floor with everybody, I just wouldn't have lasted.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Um, and I think you I saw a lot of that own in the gym where people would come in and you'd be like, Yeah, they're not gonna last six weeks. They're like, I've watched the fittest on earth documentary on Netflix, or I'm gonna get to the games next year, and you're like, mate, you're doing pull-ups with a green band at the moment, you know, you've got to understand that it's not it's not gonna happen tomorrow. Um, so I do think that there was there's some positivity with that, the positives with that, but I also think that that that barrier to entry, like you said, is and an ex accessibility point of view is definitely something that that can be seen as a bit of a black mark against CrossFit. Um, I think that certainly from the sport point of view, one of the things that I sort of disagree with with how CrossFit's gone now is that there's almost like participation medals. Is that you see, I think the Arnold's qualifiers are going on at the moment, and the amount of people that have entered in the intermediate category is like 10 times as many as the people that have entered the RX or like the higher level, and it's like cool, I'd rather go and smoke the easy comp and try and make it to this next level and put myself out of my comfort zone and struggle. Like back when I started CrossFit, there was no levels. There was no you either qualified or you didn't, and then it was hard. I just I just think that's sport. I mean, look at you look at that hierarchy. The big issue of hierarchs now in the open category, don't get me wrong, it an open race is still fucking horrible and hard, but in hindsight, there's a lot of people that sh probably shouldn't be doing open races, um, probably myself included. There's it's it's nice to get a nice cool time in open when with actually stepping up to the pro is where you you you kind of cut it or make it. So I I think it's the same everywhere. I think it's people don't like to be out of their out of their depth, and it's nice to kind of looks good on Instagram, looks good on social media. I think that people don't like to fail. Um yeah, no, it's a tough one. It didn't like CrossFit. I I think it brought a lot of positives into the into the industry. I think like for myself, for example, when I first came across CrossFit in the gym, I've always loved fitness in terms of running, in terms of being fit and gassed and sweating, but something that you don't get when you're you're bodybuilding, you're lifting weights every day. So when I came across CrossFit, I was like, wicket, I'm gonna still do my push-poor legs. And then I came across this word metcon, didn't have a clue what it meant, but it looked like that's just where you just bat yourself for 15 minutes, and then they put these things called ski ergs in the gym. So I would just train for an hour's weight, then I'd do a 15-minute mechan, whatever that was, and I would just run around lifting dumbbells up and doing ski yog, and I think that's what started the whole hybrid kind of approach to people realise that's I can do my weights, um, and then do a little bit of kind of like gas work at the end. So I think that's yeah, you can't take that away from CrossFit. I think that's brought a lot of people into this, what we now call hybrid. I don't think the hybrid approach is a new approach of training, it's been around for for donkeys how long, but I think CrossFit really opened that up. Yeah, I think like if you look back at you probably wouldn't remember this, this is showing my age a little bit. You heard of Jim Jones? No, yeah, it's like Jim Jones was like this old like training program probably 15, 20 years ago. Um, revolutionized did the 300s Spartans sort of argues and all that sort of stuff. Um, and there's um IWT and IGT sort of training. Um, and these things became um really, really niche cults, like nobody knows what we're doing, but we're like working in the in the darkness sort of stuff. And then sort of Greg Glassman 2006-ish. Don't don't shoot me, CrossFit people, if I got that wrong. Um, sort of brought brought in and and revolutionized things in terms of CrossFit, where again, and he'll say himself, he didn't reinvent training. What he did was um organise his thoughts and put everything down on paper. He he um standardized what fitness is in terms of what he thought fitness was, um, you know, so coordination, balance, agility, speed, power, strength, endurance, all of these different aspects. Um, and and tried to create a program that that that touched on all of these different things. Um, and I think that then, as you said, definitely revolutionized the space. You know, back when I was training in David Lloyd's back in my rugby days, there was no rigs in any gyms, there was no functional fitness space in any gyms. Now you go to any globo gym in JD, in you know, pure gym, there's a functional fitness space, and that's that is 99.9% down to CrossFit, yeah. And how they sort of revolutionise the space. And I agree, I think that has definitely paved the way for hybrid training, um, which in turn paved the way for for high rocks. High rocks literally stands for hybrid rock star. Yeah, although it doesn't, it's a myth. Oh, okay. Yeah, we weirdly listened to a podcast about a week ago now with the owner, right? And uh someone's made it up one day. Oh right, okay. Yeah, it doesn't mean that. Um I can't remember what it the high is obviously hybrid, but I can't remember what the rocks yeah, that is so is it is it Christian Chinese Whispers, uh Christian and I don't get me wrong. Mo, Christian and Mo. Yeah, that's rings of alcohol. I think I met I met Christian back in 2017 in the Wits summit, um, and it was like dead early doors, like that would have been the first year of it, yeah. So um he and they were just talking about this new thing that they were doing, and I was like, Oh, that's quite cool. And there's they got a couple of crossfit guys, uh, guy called Evander Um Howard, who was a good CrossFitter. Um he went on and did a CrossFit and they uh did a Hyrox, sorry, and did WALL in this Hyrox, and he was a terrible runner, yeah, but a good Crossfitter, and it was like oh I I just automatically thought, go anyone can smash that's obviously easy for CrossFitters, but what the reality was it was so early on in the sport that nobody really knew what had to train for it, what it was. And I suppose that a lot of people that come into high rox, you'll know better than me on this. Is they they tend to come from an endurance background rather than necessarily from a uh a CrossFit or a strength. Yeah, I to be honest with you, it's it there's it's such a mix, and I think that's what's so amazing about it is that you don't speak to anyone at high rocks now and say what's your background, and they say high rocks because it's still so new, it's what's your background, I was a footballer, what's your background, I was a bodybuilder, what's your background, I was a triathlete, and it's it's really interesting seeing where the where the people come from, and it's I don't think there's like a niche of where the good athletes and you've look at their background. Can you look at people like myself who are what's my background, a bit of everything, but if you had to stick to one thing, what would I do in the gym? It was weights. If you look at, and maybe in terms of the open weights in particular, that's kind of I find easier. But you would probably say a triathlete or an endurance athlete would be most suited to high rocks, but it's it's a different, I think, again in the open category, but in the pro category, they're probably you could the endurance side is probably under underlooked at in terms of high rocks, but at the same time, I think a lot of triathletes and and runners in particular are found out in that pro division because those weights are they're heavy. Um so I really don't know if you're not gonna be able to runners build if you want to call it that. If I said a perfect Hyrux athlete, it would probably be a CrossFitter who just happens to be insane at running. Um, because I think I personally, from doing my first pro races this year, it's a hell of a difference. Like those weights are I've I've lost, as I've said to you the other day, I've lost about I'm normally at about 85, 86 kilos, and I'm 76 kilos at the moment. Yes, um soon to come. Um and for the open races, it was it was mega because it meant I could run really quickly, still strong enough to push the weights, but I'd find I'd find I'm probably on the on the border of being too light for for pro weights. So yeah, at the end of the day, and it's an old adage that does my head in when people use it too much, but mass does move mass, especially with things like I suppose the the thing that I hear the most now is I've coached a couple of um high rocks athletes now, they can call themselves that, you know, qualifying for world championships in age grade and things like that. Um, and and the common themes tend to be the sled um more than anything else in terms of uh what feels heavy and what is you know the the real sapping um station. Um I I wonder like what your thoughts would be on on something like the the the the row and the ski um being the same in pro as it is in open because everything else is is scaled up if I'm not wrong. Burpee broad jumps as well, isn't it? Uh yeah, but yeah, so burpees row and ski. I think I think they're probably good that they're they're they're the same because I think it the ski is obviously different because obviously it's the first station, so it's a the that first run of first station is exactly the same. I think that the the difference being is if you're a switched on athlete in a pro race, you're gonna be slower than you would be open because you know what's to come. I think with an open you can kind of force in from minute one and get through it. With the pro, it's a very calculated race because if you do that, you'll be you'll be found out quickly. I think the ski is again, it's always the first. I think the row in particular, I think it's good that it's the same because that by that point in the race, you it's like almost a recovery station, it's the recovery station. You've done both sets, you've done the burpees, so I I think if you kind of scaled that up anymore, the the pro race would be yeah, a different beast, different beast altogether. This will probably be another episode in itself, but it's something that I've spoken about with a couple of people that um when they they talk to me about high rocks and what where I sort of see it going. Um, and my automatic, and it's just where my head goes with it, is a is a bit like when you look at triathlon and iron man um and half iron man, um, and then you've got your Olympic distance or sprint triathlons and stuff as well. And I wonder whether or not we're gonna see um when and as the popularity is increasing already now, um, a half highrox and an iron hyrox where it's double distance, double or a half distance sprint, you know, like a 30 year they've they've weirdly spoken about spoken because there's been quite a few lads who have contacted Hyrox. I think there's Jake Deirdon, one of the Elite 15 athletes, he last year did contacted Hyrux directly, and I think he had don't quote me for it, but he did around eight Hyroxes in 24 hours, so he just did every race he could over the two hour period. I know there's another guy that did back-to-back high roxes for 12 hours, so it's definitely something I think a half high rox is always it's not like a half iron man, a half high rox is realistically. It's a sprint triathlon, isn't it? It's a sprint triathlon you could be talking sub 25 minutes, yeah. But how hard would that be? Yeah, like the relay. Because they they they have the relay, don't they? Yeah, and a lot of the I've never done a relay, but a lot of people say the relay. So if anyone that doesn't know the relay is a full hierox, but it's split between four people. So you do two runs and two stations of your choice, so you could do the first run and the ski, and then the fourth run and the burpees. Oh, okay. I thought you had to do it, so it was like if you do you do the first two, you do the second two. No, so you can split it however you wish. So you interesting. So say I was amazing at warbles and burpees, I would do those two stations, and if you happen to be good at the the row and the farmers, then you would go back to back. Um but apparent I've heard people say you're probably talking two runs in under four for four minutes, eight minutes plus the stations, you're probably talking 12 minutes, 15 max of work. And a lot of people say that the the relays are harder than because you are proper gun VO2 like full cent. Yeah, that's that was my thinking on the half. Like, is it if that's if it's a genuine sort of 500 metres? I used to run 400 in school, like for for county, and it's the most savage distance on the planet. Um, I'm not saying you'd run it like a 400 meter sprint, yeah. But you'd have to go so fast if you watch them, they do. It's it's a sprint. Yeah, that'd that'd see some people off. Yeah, I'd like to see those 50 wobbles at the end of doing eight, four, five hundred flat out. 100 wobbles, yeah. But 50 it would be it was half. Yeah, correct. Yeah, that's like it'll see some people off, you know, because you get some property eggs doing it. Yeah, no. Um, yeah, I think that that's sort of my I totally agree with you going back to the the over riding CrossFit Hyrock sort of chat. That I do think that the the barrier to entry is is can certainly considered higher with CrossFit. I do like the uh the accessibility side of things with Hyrox in that you know, in in reality, if you can put one foot in front of the other, um, you can squat to depth. Um you can basically do a do a high-rox, you know, in terms of being able to do the war walls, the the lunges, I suppose, if you've got really debilitating movement patterns, but you know, there's nothing there that's disgustingly unaccessible to anyone, you know. Even when you talk about the weights on the sleds, um you know you can you can lean on them and just move them slowly. Yeah, especially that open category, isn't it? I think. I mean it'd be interesting to ask you like what would be your your your biggest downfall of and I I I know mine, your biggest downfall of CrossFit and your biggest downfall of high rocks. Um what why why why do people slate high rocks and why do people slate CrossFit apart from the CrossFit Hyrux just going at each other? Uh yeah, I think that's interesting. There's there's probably two realms of from the CrossFit point of view, why people slated CrossFit. I think to begin with, and it's something that's now probably happening in high rocks a lot now, is that it was like a cult. It was like it's only thing that CrossFitters talked about. The whole joke was that you go to a party and there's two CrossFitters and there's two vegans, you'll see the two vegans over there talking about being vegans, and there's two CrossFitters over there talking about CrossFit. And I'm starting to see that with HyRox now. It's and I I was that guy who used to say that about CrossFitters, and I'm very aware of it in the space of High Fitters.

Speaker 2:

It's true, you know, it's it there's a reason it's cliche, is because it did happen, you know.

Speaker:

You like I used to do my head in in and I was the one doing it and talking about it. Um, so I think that was definitely definitely one thing. Um, and I think I can speak to why I think I think that crossfitters slag off higher, if you like. And I think that there's there's probably two prongs to it. One is that I think that that CrossFit is on the decline at the moment, certainly in terms of like the numbers that you're seeing, number of affiliates has gone down, number of sign-ups to the CrossFit games, the the open has gone down, and you're seeing higher's do this. And I think that there's probably a little bit of protecting their patch and being a little bit sort of defensive. Um, the it's the new kid on the block, and they maybe feel threatened by it. Um, and then the other would be that I think that CrossFit has probably got a little bit of a superiority complex over um compared to HIROCs, in terms of, like you said, is that yeah, but we've got all of these hours of dedicated time and effort to do these things that you you don't even want to consider doing, you know, things like muscle-ups, things like heavy snatches, things like you know, handstand walking over ramps or whatever it might be. All of those things look great on Instagram, but they take months and years and decades of time and effort to get anywhere near Elite At uh if you ever get there. And I think that that's that sort of um there's that there's definitely a little bit of an inverted snobbery in CrossFit that he sort of see high rocks as just CrossFit light. Yeah, um, I don't necessarily agree with that. I haven't done two, I found it fucking hard. You know, it was a it was a great work. I've I've told a couple of my um games level or semi-final level athletes that they need to do one. Because in reality, I think if you want to be considered good at CrossFit, you should be able to do a good Hyrux time. And if you can't, then there's something lacking in your in your CrossFit.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Um, if I'm not I'm not a good runner, I've had I was I was an okay runner before I had some some injury issues, and I'm an even worse runner than not just okay. Um, and I think I've done two partner hyroxies in like 107-ish, whatever it is, which is okay, you know, it's not it's never gonna set the world on it. But now I'm able to train and I'm able to run, I'm gonna run a lot more. Me and Sofa doing a partner hyroxy in Amsterdam in January. And you know, I want to push her really hard because she's fucking fit, scarily fit. Um, and I think like you know, it's a it's a cool thing to train for. It's a good thing for me being able to run its course. I want to express that, but I don't think I don't think you can consider yourself fit as a CrossFitter unless you're running a sub-110, yeah, 105, yeah, no, I agree. High ROCs. I agree. Um, what why what do you think, you know, Anthony? I think you've answered like the why CrossFitters don't like HIROCs. I think my view on go with CrossFit first is I think my personal biggest downfall of CrossFit and what a lot of people may agree with is what is CrossFit. I think the biggest thing that's always rattled my head with CrossFit is if you and I tomorrow morning do a Hyruxy and you beat me by five minutes, you are better than me at HIROX. Never gonna happen. Hopefully. You're better than me. It is what it is. Hierox is this is the race, these are the standards. If I beat you, I'm better than you. Simple as that. CrossFit, I've always found like what is CrossFit? Like, you may beat me in tomorrow's wad or qualify, whatever it is, because it may be a movement pattern that I've never done before. So I've never what what is CrossFit? How can you say you're better than me at CrossFit for a workout when there's like a thousand different potential? That's what I what my reason of never quite getting CrossFit. Yeah, that's interesting. Is that a a a rope climb, what happens if I've never or a swim, or what happens if I've never done that before? Does that mean you're better than me because you've beaten me at that workout? And it's maybe that's because I'm not in the CrossFit space, but that's one. That I've never quite got my head around. No, that that's definitely interesting because I think like if you look at you know, I I've studied the CrossFit games in terms of my job, you know, in terms of looking at programming patterns, looking at what uh what biases do people show when they were writing workouts. And there certainly have been over the years different um different biases where things have got heavier, more barbell heavy. Um there's been cases where it's been very, very gymnastics heavy, very, very endurance heavy. Um, and then that will affect the winners. Um, it's been slightly different in the in the modern, well, see the modern era is it's it's all the modern era with with CrossFit, but in terms of on the guys' side of things, you had your throning era, your your Frasier era, and now it's a little bit of who who who else who's coming next. And with the women's side of things, you had Tier 2 mean, it didn't really necessarily matter what got thrown at those three people, they were gonna win. Um, but seconds through ninth changed dramatically based on the programming. Um, and that was to your point, you know, if that happened to be um a load of swimming and um long chippers, then you can bet that Brent Bukowski is gonna be getting on the podium. If that was gonna be, you know, really heavy and power output, then you'd be like, Oh yeah, Khalipa's gonna do really well, and Josh Bridges are gonna struggle, or whatever that might be. And and yeah, I agree with that. I think you can compare it if you like, and and what I would do in comparison is you look at high rocks as a bit more of a closed skill. So that would be you know, a triathlon. Yeah, you've got uh different environments and heat and water uh conditions and all that sort of stuff. Is it choppy, is it raining, is it windy, whatever? Um, but you are you know the distance you're gonna swim, you know the distance you're gonna bike, you know the distance you're gonna run.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Um, so if you're good at those three things, you should, as long as you perform, do well in a triathlon. Whereas football, for example, it's very, very open skill where you're completely dependent on what the other team are doing, what their tactics are, you know, who's marking you? Are you better than your individual marker? And does that mean that you get the ball ten times more in a game and then you can influence the game that much more? And then the next game you're up against Ronaldo and you don't touch the ball all game because he's making you look like a dickhead. Yeah. Um, and that's does that make football less of a sport? Yeah, it's a tough one. It's so but I get what you're saying, but it's it's yeah, it's an interesting frame to look at. It's like when you look at it's like people like people that I just take my hat off to it's people like Tier 2, like where she has gone, I'm the best at CrossFit. But listen, I'm probably the best at Hyrox as well. And she's proven. And she wanna come off games, she wouldn't get better or she's gone out and done it. But then if you look at, for example, what like let's get the three best CrossFitters in the world and the three best Hyruxes in the world and put them you put them to the test, you you couldn't, because you could get them all to do a HIROX, but you couldn't get the three best Hyruxes to do a CrossFit event because what happens if they've never the workouts got a rope climb and I don't know, a kipping pull-up when they've never done one before. That doesn't mean they're not necessarily not good at CrossFit, it just means for that specific movement. So I've always find it's it's difficult with CrossFit to kind of yeah, what what is what is good, and that's so that's probably my biggest downfall of of CrossFit. My biggest downfall of high rocks or what people think is for people that aren't CrossFit, is just like the general public of a lot of people that I speak to in people runners in particular, is that I think a lot of people view it as like a big-up circuit race. Um and it it it couldn't rile me up more when people say that that like, yeah, I've got a 15-minute 5k, I I'll do a sub 60 hierarchy. No, you couldn't. It's it's a complete. I just I wish everyone could experience it to realise just how hard it is, but I think people do look at it as it's just a running race with some obstacles in between. I can't be that hard. And to a certain extent, could everyone get round an open race? Yeah, is it gonna take you an hour and a half, two hours? Yeah, I think the the pro divid the the pro weights for both female and male, like I don't think anyone anyone can do that. So I think that's the biggest downfall is people that don't know the sport and they look into it, just look at it as circuit trainer. Yeah, I think but I can speak to that, right? Is it you know the the first high rox that I did with um with my mate Rio, we competed in CrossFit the week before. So um we we just decided we were gonna go to Toulouse, um, have a weekend away with our girlfriends, and do a high rox the week after we competed, so we knew we were in shape, you know, we were fit, but we didn't do anything specific for high rox, we did no extra running, we just competed the week before, had that week off, and went and did um did a high rox to the point where people think we're taking a piss, but we genuinely had to write down the order on our hands of what we were doing when we went there. We got there an hour early so we could watch what everyone was doing and be like, right, so you go from there to there to there to there. And it's uh it's so we were so blasé about it because Rio's a good runner, you know, he's a big boy, hundred and probably 105 kegs, um, and ex-captain in the military can run for days, fit lad. Um, and I was fit for crossfit, um, having you know just sort of competed. Um, and yeah, I said we were like a 107 or high 107s. I will caveat that that we did an extra length of sled pulls because we I cocked it up and did one more, and then we were the wrong side of the sled pull, so we couldn't get out of the station.

Speaker 2:

That's really another minute on top, yeah, and then nobody nobody spoke English because obviously we were in France. I was like trying to get trying to get out, and I didn't know where the fuck we were.

Speaker:

So I think if we'd had a dry run and you know, if my man had wheels should be a bike, but I think we'd probably be about a 105-ish-ish. Um call it 106. But, you know, that's not a good time. Not a good time for two capable fit lads, you know, we consider to be decent crossfitters or whatever. And I think it was I'm not gonna say humbling because I didn't go in there with necessarily expectations of doing very well, but it was harder than I thought it was gonna be. Um, you know, you get to I was I was really glad when we got to the row. I thought the the row um it goes row farmers carry. Row farmers, lunges, mobles, yeah. Yeah, and I think like that row farmers lunge section for me was like if that had been early on and we'd had to do sleds at the end, I'd have been like yes, bad day. Um, but then I found the row and the farmers really comfortable and the lunges are okay because we do a lot of that sort of stuff. I mean the biggest thing is because it's if you idolise each station and idolise the running, they're all easy. So if you haven't done it, it it does look very easy. I I was the same. I like I said, did my first doubles and thought that one, all right? I'll do a singles next. I played football for years, I I've got a kind of a base fitness in me. I I didn't run at all, and I I I did my first singles race, and it's yeah, it's horrible, it's it's integrating them all into one, it's horrible. But if you look at it from an outset and you think, oh, you just gotta run and do that, it's yeah, I can understand why people have their views on it. But um good people make it look easy, yeah. It's like when you watch football, it's like you watch it, you watch the best people in the world because you know you you know, and you're all sitting down eating your Cheetos going, Fucking hell, how didn't he score that? And you're like you wouldn't even be in the same like 10 meter space as this guy, right? No, exactly. The same with CrossFit, you know, people are turning around and go, Oh, you know, yeah, but it's easy for you to eat because you're strong, and it's like, yeah, well, it's taking me how many years to be able to do that, how many hours of practice, tens of thousands of hours of practice. Um, so I think everybody's got that um sort of voyeurism bias, haven't they? Where you're watching from the outside and you're like, Oh, that looks easy. Yeah, it looks easy because they're good, yeah, and you're watching them because they're good. You're not watching the shit ones, yeah. You know, because you watch the shit ones, they'll be like, Fucking hell, that looks hard. Yeah, and uh and that's probably a bit more like where most of us would start when we're doing anything, yeah. And I think like coming from a sporting background, it's it's a privileged position, but it's also um in that you know you can you can pick things up quite quickly, you've you've got some attributes that are going to be positive towards that sport or towards whatever you want to call it. Um, but there's there's definitely some negativity in that as well, is that if you come from any sort of level of sport, is you expect to win, yeah, or you're competitive by nature, and it's such a hard thing to chuck yourself into the deep end in anything and be like, oh, I'm shit at this. Yeah, and it's um yeah, that's what's interesting, is people are coming from so many different sports into it, and are they gonna be humbled? They've come from maybe being the best at their certain discipline. Um but I I think there's I think there's a place for both of them massively. I I think even myself personally, I look at one thing I've nailed in the last six months is the running. I can safely say my running for high rocks is like ticking the box. Where I lack massively is probably my uh strength endurance in terms of lifting heavy weights whilst being fucked. And I think an element of CrossFit training would be fantastic heavy devil presses, things such as that, where I think there's a massive benefit of that sort of training for high rox athletes, vice versa. You get a crossfit athlete doing a a couple of compromised runs, and then suddenly it's yeah, I I think there's a massive place, and I think I think people will realise that soon. I think maybe when I think that the the tipping point will maybe be in two, three years when Hyrox is still a thing and still popular when people say, Oh, actually, okay, fair play. Yeah, I think so. I think there's there's definitely room for them both um to coexist, but also not just exist around each other but improve each other. Um, like you said, that you know, the the majority of CrossFitters, even at the the higher level, are poor runners. So doing uh doing some more high rocks training is only going to benefit them in the running side of things, if nothing else. Do you think they will not kind of accept that high rocks is good? So if you can't beat them, joining and integrate maybe a little bit more running into CrossFit or um I don't know. I think that if when you look at the CrossFit games at the the pinnacle of the sport, there's always a lot of running. You know, there's there's very rarely less than two or three events that have got some sort of running um across a across a weekend of 12 to 15 events. Um so there's a good chunk of running in there. Now there's there's reasons for that because they can't really test running in the open because you're in your gym. Yeah, um and in quarterfinals when you're in your gym. They can do it in in in-person semi-finals, but in like an online competition, you can't really do that. So they tend to then go, well, actually, we can't get you to the you can't win the CrossFit games and not be able to run because the whole point is you're meant to be the fittest of the fit. Yeah, you know, if you go and speak to somebody on the street, and it's an argument I'm I used to have all the time was you ask random person on the street, how do you know it who's the fittest person? It's like, well, what do they run a mile in? Or what's their final change? Very true, or what do they bench?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, they very rarely turn around and go, what do they snatch? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How many war balls can they do unbroken? Yeah, can they walk on their hands?

Speaker:

You know, it's running is running is the is a it's the epitome of fitness in just the the the basic terms. So um yeah, I think it would be CrossFit would be um remiss to to not put running uh as a big part of the CrossFit games because it would be embarrassing if somebody considered themselves the fittest in the world and they couldn't run in 25k. Yeah, no, very true. Um so yeah, I think there's there's definitely scope for them to not just coexist but to help each other. Like you said, like a lot of the the CrossFit um style training can be adapted for higher arcs and be become slightly more station specific. Um and a lot of the stuff that we're gonna do together will be uh science scientifically derived from CrossFit in terms of improving strength endurance, improving power output, improving cadence, improving technique. Um, all of those things can can benefit high rocks, and you don't necessarily need to do wall balls to get better at war balls. Yeah, you don't necessarily need to lunge to get better at lunges, but what you do need is good unilateral leg strength. What you do need is good coordination, what you do need is good strength endurance, and all of those things can be improved in slightly more varied ways. So I think that would be my big criticism if I had to turn around and say, you know, what what is your personal dislike of high rocks? I haven't got one, I like it, but if I were to turn around anything, I I'd say I I could see it getting boring if it was my only sport because it is lacking variation, it lacks variation and not and I think there's not enough that we've spoken about it before that the training for high rocks is that it hasn't been around long enough for for people to train properly for it. So a lot of people will just their high rox training is high rocks, and it it yeah, after you've done your first race and you think, what am I doing next week? Right, I'll do running, compromise running on a Monday, I'll do sleds on a and it's just back and forth high rock stations. So yeah, you you are dead right there. I think people do do a high rocks and then write out a high rocks now and then move on. So I think that was my initial thoughts when high rocks first started gaining popularity, was that I I saw it becoming a bit like what I can I consider triathlon to be, in that a lot of people will do one, but it won't be a lot of people's sport. It'll be something that they'll be like, cool, I'll I'll dip into this and train for it for six weeks and or ten weeks or twelve weeks. Um, but I'm not gonna do three, four, five in a year and it become and do the season and try and progress in that. It's gonna be something that I'm gonna see as a challenge, like running a marathon or something. Yeah, no, you are right. Um, but and then the people that thrive in that will then Yeah, it's an interesting one. It's I I I would have said exactly the same thing, but looking at where it's come in the last I mean, even just 12 months ago when I did my first one, most people didn't really know what Hyrux was, and I look now and not only does everyone know what it was, but the the the standards in the last 12 months is just which which would suggest that people aren't kind of dipping their toes in. No. A lot of the the the ex-triathes are dipping their toes and then going, oh hang on a minute, this is number one, I haven't got to train 30 hours a week to do it. Number two, I could be good at this, and there's people really committing to it, and where suddenly, I mean, just looking at times for for this year last year, there were there are Elite 15 times last year of 101, 102, and you're now looking at a shit time for Elite 15 is like a 57 minute, which is just a sub-hour open last year was like a gold like achievement, a sub-hour open singles time this year is an incredible time, but it's very near. Um so yeah, I I I don't know. I don't know if it's a a short-term cult thing, but people do seem to be hooked to it. And I think personally it's I think a lot of people in the same boat where they've kind of dabbled their feet in a lot of things and can now kind of devote their time to a certain I hate to use the term sport, but if you want to call it a sport, but still do lots of different elements. I think where I love it so much is that for the first time in a long time I've been able to devote my whole training to one discipline, but I can still go and do a bit of weights, I can still run, I can still do my Metcons conditioning, I I'm doing everything, but it's actually for the benefit of my chosen sport, and I think that's what a lot of people like about it. Yeah, effectively what you're doing, you know, if if we looked at this from 2016 before Horox was a thing, effectively what you're doing is crossfit with a bias.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

You're crossfit with eight eight stations and running biases. Exactly, yeah. Um there's still some variety in your training, there's still undulating periodization in terms of you've got your heavy days or your easy days, you've got your lactate days, you've got your VO2 days in terms of your running. So all of these different things where you're you're not you're not hitting the same thing in the same way over and over. So, yeah, to that to that point, there definitely is some variety in comparison to um you know just doing a high ROX three times a week and expecting to get better at high ROX, right? Um, yeah, I think my last question, you sort of tapped up on it slightly earlier, saying that you know it would be a Crossfitter that's a very good runner. Um, is is what do you think, or because it's so new as a sport, um, we don't know what the the natural progression is from other sports yet. Um I've got I've got an answer in my head that's a little bit left afield of what I think would would be the the perfect precursor to becoming a good hierox. Um but what would what would you consider that to be? I think something I think of thought about a lot weirdly. I I do think the triathlete is is gonna be it. I think the reason we haven't seen it yet is because the best triathletes are still triathlete. I think Yes, the the the pro weights are heavy, and and if you've had some form of weightlifting background, it's gonna help. But the way I see it's an endurance race. It's that's why if you if you know you want to be the best of the best, you're looking at between 50 minutes to an hour. That to me is an endurance race still, even in the the elite 15 times, and that needs a massive, massive base of fitness, and uh having that base endurance as we know takes like years to build that like years and years, and to get strong or stronger that can be done in months. I think to get a fit that takes years, so I think triathlete coming into CrossFit um into high rocks will just be able to do a high rox, and then once they've niche the stations, I think they will fly because the biggest away from the endurance side of it, the hardest bit about high rocks is the the muscular endurance of if they've done however many miles on a bike straight into a marathon, doing a 50-metre sled push, if they've got some weight behind them, is going to be a piece of piss. I think the people that struggle the most coming into high rocks are the guys who are big and buff and move the stations like mad, and they may be a quick runner over a 5k, but they haven't got that that endurance side of it. So, so yeah, cut a long story short. I think my my dream person coming into a high rocks would be an elite level, elite level triathlete on the heavier side because those sleds are heavy. Well, they'll put they'll just be an elite level triathlete that's allowed to eat what they want, yeah. Exactly. As opposed to having to worry about staying a bit light up to get on the bike board. Yeah, what about you? Dick athlete. Yes, they've got to run uh a 1500 fast. They've got to throw a shot putt, do a high jump, do a long jump. Bloody. So they've got power, some power output. They're obviously technically good runners. Um they're used to multi-faceted sport in terms of picking up skills and learning things. That's a real because I I I follow a lot of I follow every anything, any anyone fitness related on YouTube I follow. So I've got a few of like the the the pro tri athletes on there and a few of them who have tried high rocks and they they finish it and say, Yeah, that was a piece, they haven't got good times, but they get round the course. But where they lack is their skill set on the stations. They they they watch them doing a burpee broad jump or a walk. They're not athletic because to run, bike, and swim, so closed, yeah. So like you just do it, yeah. You you yeah, exactly, yeah. God, I've never thought about that. Yeah, so that'd be more jumpy on that one. It's really interesting you say about um it takes a really long time to get fit, and you can get strong in a couple of months because that's always been my um thinking, and it's so contradictory to a lot of CrossFit coaches. Um many, many, many CrossFit coaches are very biased towards spending months and years getting strong and say, Yeah, but you can get fit in six weeks. Yeah, it's mad, isn't it? Which way you bonkers. I don't know. I agree with you, I don't agree with that. Then if if you'd asked me that back in the day when we probably first met when I was working in a supplement shop and I was hanging around bodybuilders seven days a week, and you were told that it takes ten years to build muscle, naturally. Wrong job. Yeah, if you wanted to go on a run off, I would just go on a diet and run. And it's not until you learn the science behind it. Okay, yeah, does building muscle take years? Yeah, absolutely, but you don't need muscle to do a high rox. No, if anything, muscle holds you back, it's muscular endurance and strength endurance, which is what you need, and I think that is can be built upon quicker than 15 years of endurance work doing biking and cycling. And I think that's where a lot of people get fully found out, and I think that's where I've been really fortunate. And that although I've never done an endurance sport from the age of three, I've either played 90 minutes of football every Saturday, cricket, whatever it may be, and I think that's built a base for me to transition into. I think if you haven't got that base before, I've I think hierox is is a really a really difficult thing. And I think we all know people who have technically you'd look at them and go, they're really fit, and then they do a hierox. I mean, I could name loads of people on here, which I they've done a hierarchy, and I've gone, what they're still going. They're still going. You're meant to be really fit because it's it's an injure, it is an endurance race. Yeah, for sure. And and certainly from a cross-fit point of view, one of the things that we we don't do a lot is anything over really probably 20-25 minutes. It's very rare. Um, you know, you everyone chucks in a Murph once a year, which is you know, for your average person, is closer to an hour. But you know, even on the elite side of that, you're looking at 30-ish minutes. I think we've spoken about it before, haven't we? The the Wad Science on online, and he he did a really good piece on it about the difference in CrossFit and Hyroxy, and it was exactly that in that crossfitters have got the if you look at the the ratio of VO2 max between a CrossFit and a hieroxy, or a CrossFitter VO2 Max is up here and you and the hyroxia is maybe down there, and you'd go, well, obviously he's 10 times as fit because it's VO2 max. In essence, that means that they can do a Cindy or whatever these crossfit in in 10 minutes and just kill themselves. Sit at a lactate threshold. That VO2 max does not transition into an hour of of HIROX, so it's yeah, yeah, you're dead right there. Yeah, I think well without getting trying to get too sciencey on it, is CrossFit's a glycolytic sport, right? It's it's it's power output and it's using muscle glycogen and carbohydrates and cross uh and high rox, sorry, is a more aerobic sport. Yeah. So yeah, you're still using carbohydrates as as your main energy source, but you're certainly tapping into lipids and and and fat storage and oxidization there. Um, so you know, anything over the that sort of two, three minute mark, you're gonna start using your aerobic capacity. Um, but obviously the the deeper you go into that when you're talking 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 minutes, um, the more you're reliant on your aerobic capacity. And crossfitters generally don't go there that often. They will in training, you know. We do a lot of long ski, row, bike, less running, but should be more running, um, more so because of the the um impact and the uh eccentric loading. But you you look at that as a as a a premise, and it's something that I've always had a slight bias towards with my guys and and and tap is that I get them doing a lot more aerobic work. Yeah, because if if you even if you don't see it in specifics in the sport, what that will allow you to do is recover better between sessions and on a more micro level, recover better between workouts in a competition. Yeah, and it tended to be that my guys did better the longer the competition went on for um because they were aerobically fitter and they were actually recovering better in week in after workout five, six, seven, eight on day three than those people that hadn't put those hours and hours and hours in, and then they're actually they're just burn they're burning hot and fast. I mean that goes like just it's coming to my head then is that's where I I love high rocks is CrossFit and triathlons are like here to be good at CrossFit, you've you've got to be fast, strong. Like we said, it's it's it's very anaerobic, it's very VO2 max work, it's very and then you go to a triathlete and it's purely endurance. And I find a crossfit has got the power, the strength to push those stations harden a crossfit, but not over an hour. The triathlete has got the endurance to do probably 10 back-to-back high roxes. Slowly. Slowly, but they don't have that power and kind of that maybe that fresh hold to push into that red zone to do it quickly. And I think we've spoken about it is the one thing that we're gonna try and work with me moving forward is that I've built a very big base endurance base over the the years, and also through HIROX training the last 12 months, where I find the actual process of doing a HIROX very easy, but the process of doing one quick very hard. So, and what I'm trying to say is you you HIROX sits in the middle of it as in you need that, but you also need that. Um, how you put that in you're trying to say that Hyrux is a hybrid, exactly that. I am, yeah. Bottom sharp, mic drop, podcast ended. Um, and that's why that's why I love it so much because it's there's so much to it. You you get really fit, you go, oh mega, and then actually you need a bit of that CrossFit side of it because when you're blowing on those sleds, you you you've got to find something to to send it, or you're if you're on War Ball 57 and you've got it's you've got to be able to push that that threshold, which as a triathlete, you probably don't need to or haven't experienced it before. Whereas if you put me into a 10-minute ward tomorrow, you'd absolutely destroy me because you would go above and beyond, and I don't have that ability to to push that hard.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Um so I think round and square in that circle, you you look at it and you say, Well, CrossFit versus hierarchies. I think we both made some tried to anyway, made some interesting points in terms of you know what we think that certain or what other people's perceptions are of CrossFit and HIRARCs, um what our own perceptions are of CrossFit and HIRARCs, um, and what's what it takes to be good at those things. Um I think the the the interesting sort of next stage to this and and like you touched on a little bit earlier is to see how it progresses going forward because there is definitely a a slight decline in terms of how CrossFit is um not growing, it's declining. Um it seems to have sort of hit its hit its peak and plateaued, and and if anything, sort of is shrinking a little bit. Hyrox reminds me an awful lot of CrossFit in sort of 2013-2014, where there's this almost seemingly juggernaut like power behind it that's just it's only gonna go one way. Well, that was the same with CrossFit, and then it didn't go one way. Um so it's gonna be really interesting to see what the longevity of both is, whether or not CrossFit picks back up. Um, I think that you know this will be another another episode, but I think CrossFit last season has had its first positive season in a very long time. Okay. Um, and I think that it'll be interesting to see how the sign-ups are this year coming compared to last because it I think personally it might be the first time we see a little bit of an increase for a while. Um, and it'll be really interesting to see what happens with high rocks as they grow. I think I I I used this analogy the other day. Um have you watched the the Wrexham documentaries? Welcome to Wrexham. No, I haven't. Right. Like I'm a massive Cardiff City fan, but I do I've I enjoyed the um the Wrexham documentaries. They've been really good because it's like it's basically like two guys that know nothing about football that are playing championship manager with in real life, how they're building a football club from scratch, and they seem to have done everything completely right in terms of p putting the right people in the right places, listening to the right people, um, ignoring the right people, and just making some really savvy decisions. And this is a long way winded way of me saying I think that what Hyrux are doing is basically that. They've seen CrossFit falter and make some terrible decisions and shoot themselves in the foot a couple of times as an organization. And they've learned from CrossFit's mistakes rather than their own. And it seems like they're they're sitting on the outside looking in and going, we're not going to do that. Let's try and do this. We're going to go with governance. We're going to try and get, I think there's talk about them trying to get into the Olympics in the long run of things, you know. And you can't do that without governance, you can't do that without standardization, you can't do that without um organization and productivity, um, and having the right people in the right places. And those are all things that have been massive criticisms of CrossFit. Um, and I'm not saying they've done that because CrossFit haven't, but there's no way they don't know that what CrossFit are doing. It's be it will have been a massive precursor to what they've they've set up and what they've done. So I think that they they're doing things with German precision, right? They're they're looking at it and thinking, right, how can we make this better? Rather than where the best people will come to us. And I think that's my big criticism of CrossFit as a as a space, if you like, and it's something that's so fixable, yeah. Um, and I think, and I hope that they do fix it because I think there's a lot of really positive things that could come out of that, but if they don't, then higher's are just kind of yeah. No, I I couldn't agree. I yeah, I think to end it on that, in that I think CrossFits and Hyrux is they both got barriers moving around. I think CrossFit's biggest barrier forward is exactly what you said, they're so stuck in their way, and again, why people like myself have never got into it, because I think CrossFit's amazing. I love the whole element of lifting heavy weights whilst being really fit. I think it's wicked, but the barrier to get into CrossFit and the way they're stuck in their ways is what stops it from growing massively, and I think it's such an easy fix, and vice versa. With Hyrux, I think HIROX as a spectacle, as an event, uh social media-wise, it is the best. It's incredible. You go to an event, it's a bunch of shit that's all over CrossFit. However, what HIROX doesn't have that CrossFit does have is uh the workouts to constantly be different, to constantly be motivated for more because there's a different workout. I think HIROX have nailed their business model. It's the actual sport moving forward, as you said. If you're not someone like me who becomes fixated to it and wants to be the best HIROX in the world, are you gonna do one or two and be like, nah, I'm done with it now? So it'll be interesting to see how both I think. The big thing that HIROX, and again, this will be another episode, I'm sure, is they that they can learn from CrossFit is in the early days, they were a media company. The the social media, the the YouTube, the Netflix documentaries were absolute snowball rolling downhill and made CrossFit this this as a sport, you know, not necessarily the training methodology. And that I'm conscious that I've only saying this an hour into our chat, that the the methodology and the the sport are separate entities with CrossFit, right? Um, but the the the media juggernaut that they had was so impressive, and I think what that then did was create celebrities within that space that people latched onto and became fanatic about, like you are with Hyrux now. Um, if there hadn't been a Rich Froning, if there hadn't been a Camille LeBlanc, if there hadn't been a Miko Salo or a Jason Khalipa or a Mike Cattress, obviously. Um if there hadn't been these people, would it have garnered as much attention and grown as quickly as it did? The personalities grew that, and I know you've got Hunter McIntyre, who's like a big personality, and he's like a bit of marmite and wipes people out and all that sort of stuff. I think what Hyrux really need to do is cultivate five or six of those guys and make some personalities. I agree, it's a bit of a nice guy's sport still. It it is, it needs a bit more. There's I think CrossFit has always been big competition. I don't think there's quite the the competitive side of the Hyrux yet, which yeah, no, I agree with you there. You know, but how cool would it be to see uh you watch like Drive to Survive, or you watch like you know, uh The Last Dance or all these export documentaries all or nothing. I'd love to watch one following the Elite 15. And I I can imagine it. I know Red Bull did a they did a documentary last year of last year's season. I'll have to watch it. I can imagine there will be one. Yeah, and you you get that on Netflix or you or wherever, you know, Amazon Prime or just on YouTube, but you you build five or six of these characters, you show the story, and you be like, right, this is what this guy goes through week in, week out, and he's this close. This is the the guy who's everyone's trying to beat, and he's a bit of a dick, and this is the guy who's like you really want to win, but he's got no chance, and you and suddenly that that changes everybody's thinking about it. And that that's when I can definitely see Hyrocks catapulting that a little bit further again. Um, is once they start building those um those personalities and and making it uh uh a spectator-friendly sport, not just as the sport, yeah. No, I agree, and I think having ex-pros, ex-pro triathletes who have got that real rigged, like hardcore die hard. I'm gonna win. I think at the moment Hyrox is full of people who are good at high rox, they're ex. If you look at Alex Ronkovic, for example, he's a this time last year he was a teacher. Um, they're not professional athletes. Um, so it'd be interesting to see when the the professional athletes come through and they've kind of got that die hard win at all costs to see if it does kind of take the sport to the next level. That's cool. I'm looking forward to seeing what uh what happens next. Um, in terms of what we've got coming up, I'm not sure when this is gonna go out. It's gonna take me probably three to four working years to edit it because it's gonna be the first one I've done, but hopefully it'll be out in the next couple of days. Um, we are launching our eight-week HyROX prep program this weekend because it's eight weeks out from Manchester, it is, and eight weeks out from Amsterdam. Amsterdam. Um, I will be at Manchester, so um I'll be there to coach you on this on that Saturday because we come back on Friday. We're Wednesday. So that's cool. So we're flying from Manchester, so I'm gonna stay there overnight. So I'll sort of that for you. This is that's an exclusive just for you guys. Yeah, um, and then I am in the process of finishing off the 12-week block now, which will be an extended version of this eight-week block with some slight changes, which will take us through to I'm gonna have to check off the top of my head, but I think it's Verona, not Verona. Verona, Verona's next week. What's the one in Italy? Bologna. Bologna, possibly beginning of April? Yes, beginning of April. It'll take us through the beginning of April, um, and that 12-week block, and I'm gonna write a 16-week block which will take us through the Cardiff. Happy days. Um, so we'll have each of these ready to go for you in the right time frame so you can sort those out. We are also going to be launching a generic rolling calendar high rox program, which will be non-periodised specific work. So you'll go through a four-week block, a four-week block, a four-week block, a four-week block. Each block will build on the last, um, and that process will be just getting better at high rocks without having an end goal or a specific race in mind. Um, because I know not everybody's that far plan that far in advance. Um, and if you have then dipped your toe in and done that and enjoyed it, and you've got a race in eight weeks' time, you then go back and start the eight-week plan, and you know that you're gonna be in uh the best shape of your life because it's what this man's gonna do leading into Manchester. That's the plan. We will get there. Um, and yeah, I think podcast side of it as well. I think this is kind of the way it's gonna run. We're gonna have a have a topic and just spout our views, chat shit. So there is gonna be a lot of kind of jumping from here there and everywhere. So anything that anyone wants to talk about, let us know. Um yeah, I hope you enjoyed the content and hope you like us when we just uh yeah, chat shit and go go everywhere. We are gonna try and have a have a time limit to it, but it's gonna be lots of just open open talks. Uh, yeah, and hope you'll enjoy it. Yeah, thanks for joining us, guys. And uh if you made it all the way to this, well done. Well done. Enjoyed. See you next time, guys. Nice one, guys.