Fasted Or Fuelled and What is "Strong Enough"?

We weigh fasted training against performance fueling and show how to match carbs to intensity and duration. Then we tackle Hyrox strength, define strength endurance, and map the fastest path to “strong enough” without wasting sessions or breaking down.

• download milestone, YouTube plans, guests and seminar series 
• fasted training preferences, low vs high intensity fuel needs 
• fat oxidation myths, energy balance clarity 
• psychology of sugar, mouth-rinse effect, hydration timing 
• race prep consistency, practising fueling in sims 
• strong enough standard for Hyrox, when strength matters 
• prioritising running and station economy once strength is adequate 
• defining strength endurance, systemic fatigue over junk reps 
• interval weight training for durable performance 
• programming variety year-round, specificity near race

Like and share, and subscribe, and do the thing everyone asks you to do on all the other podcasts

Transcript

New Year Catch-Up And Milestones

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome back guys to the Total Athletic Podcast. As you will hopefully see, we should have had uh a couple of episodes up on YouTube now. Um, in the process of editing those and getting those up now in the next couple of days. Um unfortunately we are not live in person next to each other this time around. We are via Zoom. Um just schedules colliding slightly and we wanted to we are conscious that we wanted to get an episode out there as well. But before we get started, happy new year. Hope you had a good time over Christmas. Um yeah, New Year, New Me and all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

New Year same. Then I've got you.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

New Year Same, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Get it done.

Plans For Guests And Seminar Series

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Absolutely. Um yeah, so before we uh sort of dive into everything, just gonna get it all out up front. Same thing as we sort of say the last well have said the last four episodes. I think this is episode five question mark. It is, it is, yeah. Um thanks very much for everyone for listening. Thanks for all of the questions, all of the feedback. It's been really, really positive. We've broken the 500 download mark over the the episodes, which is great, and a really small uh benchmark, but it's a it's a start. Um and um yeah, seen a couple of people who have spoken to us about it and spoken to me about it, and it's all been really positive. So thanks for the feedback, thanks for the ideas on topics. We've had a couple of people asking about getting guests on, um, which is definitely something we're gonna we're gonna look to do in the um in the next couple of episodes. Um and one of the things that we're looking at doing as well, possibly two or three episodes time, is a seminar series where we're gonna go into a little bit more educational stuff based on um sort of tap training days that I've done in the past and and feedback that we've had from athletes that's been really positive. Um, a couple of reasons for that. One being I think it'll be really beneficial for you, Matt, um, from a sort of coach-client sort of side of things, but also obviously for the people listening, it'll be great to get your questions and we can delve a little bit deeper into some of those topics that we might not do on those training days because you know what it's like when you've got 20, 30 people in a room. People are never put their hands up and ask questions, even though they've got questions. Uh, and I know you will if we're doing it on a one-to-one basis.

Setting Up Today’s Topics

Personal Experiences With Fasted Training

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Definitely, definitely. No, I think that's a good way of doing it. Really good way of doing it. And as you all know, I love asking you questions, so it'll be a winner. It'll be a winner. Um, yeah, excuse my uh coughs, and I'm I've got the flu at the moment. So I'm got the lurgy, so training's been tough this week, that's for sure. Um, but yeah, topic-wise, this week, I thought I had a few things which I well the first topic I love speaking about, and it's Simon and I have quite strong opinions about over the years of being a bodybuilder. Uh, and that was training in the morning and training fasted. What are our thoughts on training fasted? Is it doable? Is it optimal? And does it depend on what sort of training you're doing? So I thought we could have a little chat about that. Um, and that kind of goes for all aspects of training. And then the second topic I wanted to discuss was strength training for high rocks. How in how important is it? Um I personally think it's less and a lot less important than when I first started doing it. I thought I could continue to be a bodybuilder and just run a bit. Uh, it actually doesn't mean that at all. Um, so I thought we could could touch up touch upon that. How strong do you need to be? How many, how much aspects of strength do you need to incorporate into training for high rocks? Uh, and go that. But yeah, I thought first we'd talk about training fasted. What I initially do do you do you ever train fasted? I know I I give you my answer after, but yeah, what about you? Do you?

SPEAKER_00 4:03

I have done in the past. Um, not necessarily something that I've done consciously from a um a performance point of view in terms of I'm training fasted for a purpose, it's more been a case of that's just the way that my day pans out. Um, you know, if if I'm doing a 7 a.m. cardio session, which I tend to do sort of three times a week, um, I'm not the sort of person that likes training cardio-wise or like MECON-wise. I don't like feeling full for those sessions. So it's more of a personal preference thing rather than me turning around and going, oh, I'm training fast, it's because it's yeah, maybe maybe if I jump in there and I should have cleared that up first.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

This isn't uh do you train fasted for this reason? It just may be just a do you like training fast? Not I'm doing it for this reason, just I get up early, I go to the gym, I just can't be asked, I don't want to eat before that was more of a do you as opposed to I'm doing it because I think it burns more fat or something along those lines. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fasted Cardio, Fat Oxidation, And Myths

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Um yeah, in that case, yes, I I do. Um I my morning sessions, which like I said, uh uh sort of depending on what my my weeks looking like or my my part of the seasons looking like I tend to do three uh early morning, and they they are sort of cardio or um you know longer sessions. Um I'll I will do those plastic um or at the at the most, maybe with a a shake or a smoothie or something in my in my tummy. Um it's not something I'm yes, it's a personal preference thing really, just that I don't like training that sort of training um feeling full. Whereas if I had a lifting session that I had to get done first thing in the morning, I'd happily have a big bowl of oats or something 10 minutes before I do a lifting session, and that doesn't bother me too much. Yeah, fair.

Intensity, Duration, And Performance Fueling

SPEAKER_01 5:49

What about you know? I so I've I've kind of shifted a lot. I think when I was just doing weight, I've always trained, I say I always trained in the mornings, probably for I when I first started training, I didn't, but probably for the last coming up to 10 years, I've always trained in the mornings before work. Um that now looks a little bit later than it used to, just because I got a lot more flexibility of work. But back in the day when I was working a nine to five hours in the gym at 6.15, um, and the same as you, number one, I hated training on a full stomach. Number two, I love food, um, and I could eat unlimited amounts of food, so I didn't want to waste any of my calories at five o'clock in the morning when I wasn't enjoying it, as much as I would wake up starving. So for for probably about yeah, 10 years nearly, I I have always trained fasted, um, not because I necessarily saw any benefit. I do think there are benefits to it. Um, my main reason was I didn't feel I my my blood sugars are relatively stable, and I don't feel I get a massive drop in blood sugars when I'm in a fasted state, so I'm able to do it. So, what I always used to do was I eat a lot of food in the evening, um, especially in my last meal, which is probably at about eight, nine o'clock at night. Um, to my view was always if I'm going to bed with a full tank of carbs and my glycogen stores are full. Actually, at six o'clock in the morning, they're still full. I haven't done anything since then. Um, and that tended to get me through workouts. It was only when I was in the gym for two hours or more where I'd really start to see a shift and go feel a bit. But I I just used to push through it. It and again, the yeah, going into the last year since doing high ROCs, I think since my training's gone purely. I think I got away with it in the past because I trained purely for aesthetics as opposed to performance. So it didn't really matter if I wasn't training optimally as long as I was looking good, that's all that mattered. And I wasn't too fussed about lifting heavy as long as I looked good, and that was as far as it really went. Um, so as long as I was hydrated, that was it. I think this didn't shift into high rocks, it became more aware of how important nutrition is. Um, especially with these hard, intense workouts. I probably started off still training the same and probably getting an hour in and thinking I was unfit, but actually I wasn't. I was just severely depleted of every single nutrient in my body and I had nothing left. Um, so I've really had to force myself to do it. I think like you said, if if I was doing uh an hour of zone two, um, even like an upper body session, um, I wouldn't bother eating. Um, I eat way over 500 grams of carbs a day. Um, probably about 200 in the last few hours before I go to bed. I I don't need carbs in the morning, but for example, yesterday when I did that the the stim, or even this morning, where I did a bit of a longer cardio piece, then I I will have something. Um so recently I I have about a handful of dates just to have something in there, just to kind of top off. I feel like the the the glycogen stores from the night before probably get you through about an hour or so, um, depending on how intense you're training. And then I find whether it's a caveat that then go on then.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Um just about saying yeah, it all depends about how hard you're training, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Yeah. Um the higher the higher intensity I'm at, the the quicker I feel it go. Um and just a handful of dates is probably about a hundred calories. I'll start probably about I don't know if that's in my head mentally, um, but that seems to get me through. And then if it was if it goes any longer, if it's an intense session which goes on for longer than an hour, an hour and a half, two hours, then I'll I've always got a bag of fizzy worms in my gym bag, which I'll I'll nibble on. But again, that could just be psychologically because I'm putting sugar in my mouth. Um, so yeah.

Psychology Of Sugar And Mouth Rinse Effect

SPEAKER_00 9:46

There's a couple of things to to to dive into on that. Like you you've sort of touched on maybe three points that that are worth can sort of considering. Um, first point being um intensity. So yeah, as you said rightly, and I sort of jumped in and caveat a little bit as well, is that the the more intense your session is, the more glycolytic it is by nature. So the more you're going to be using glycogen stores, the more you're going to be burning carbohydrates. So the whole fasted cardio thing that became really popular sort of maybe 10, five to ten years ago, um, there was a little bit of science behind it, which is it has been backed up, is that you can you you can and will burn more fat in your cardio sessions if you do them fasted, um, because you are using fat as a um more not primary, but you are using more fat uh oxidation for um for energy. Um that is when you're doing low, slow intensity cardio, classic cardio, you know, your bodybuilder is doing on an incline speed walk or a slow jog or a you know an hour on a on a spin bike going steady.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Um if you are then diving into a an intense session, but then that's just quickly for people that are more aesthetic-based, that's you're burning more fat, not more calories. So at the end of the day, it doesn't matter when you do that cardio, it's the energy in, energy out. That's what I used to be so obsessed with reading up on this was that yeah, you do burn more fat, but fat as a fuel, not fat as in terms of body fat.

Hydration Timing And Race Prep Consistency

Context Matters: Goals And Lifestyle Fit

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Correct. Yeah, so you're so yeah, so that's a that's a good uh a good point to make. Yeah, you're using more fat as an energy source, um, by which we when we're saying burning fat, as in you are you are burning fat, oxidizing fat to go through what we talked about, I can't remember what episode it was, um, but for for oxidative um energy. And what what you're then doing, just because you're burning fat as an energy source in that training session, that doesn't mean that you're going to lose more fat. The fat that you lose is completely on calories in, calories out is your is your your thermostat balance balance, right? So um if you are if you are doing three hours of fasted cardio in the morning, but then you're eating more calories than you're burning during that session, you're gonna put weight on and you'll put body fat on. Um so it's not it's not this magic pill that's just suddenly and does stuff. So I think it's it's been one of those classic bro science things where somebody's read a bit of literature and gone, cool, I burn more fat when I'm doing this. Let's it's the only way to do cardio. So that's the that's the first point. Um the so the intensity does matter. The more intense that your session is, the more you're going to burn glycogen and carbohydrates and then need carbohydrates, right? So if you're doing an intense session fasted, then your car your glycogen stores are going to deplete quicker. But secondly, your performance will then um decline quicker than it would if you were fueled. Okay. Um, for the reasons that we talked about before. If you haven't got carbohydrates readily available, then you have to break down other tissues to create ATP. Um, and that's a more inefficient process. And you then becoming you get yourself into oxygen debt, you build up lactate more quickly and all of these other things, right? So it's it's fine from an aesthetic point of view, it's fine from a cardio zone to or lower point of view, but from a performance point of view, there's there's um there's science that's saying it's not positive at all, it's potentially negative. There's also science saying that training fasted can increase spikes in cortisol, um, which can increase muscle breakdown. So if you are doing lifting um again for a certain period of time after sort of 45 minutes or so to an hour, if it's a longer session and you're lifting, the breakdown in muscle tissue becomes larger when you're doing it fasted, which then means you need more energy to recover from that session. Um, as we talked about before, you're only as good as what you can recover from. Um and so the the aspect of intensity, the aspect of time, the longer that that session is, the more you need to be fueled for it. So you'll see people anybody that's trained for a marathon or a half marathon or a triathlon, and they're taking uh energy gels, or they're you know, chomping on jelly babies, or they're drinking leukozade or whatever, and they've got a carbohydrate schedule where every sort of 60 minutes or so they're trying to get X amount of carbohydrates in. There's a reason for that because after you know you've been training for about 45 minutes or so above a sort of zone two, then you are going to be edging towards depletion. Um now I I use the word depletion loosely because you've got enough, probably enough glycogen in your muscles to last you hours and hours and hours and hours. Um, but in terms of depletion, I mean from a performance point of view. Readily available, quickly available glycogen stores are different to total glycogen in your body, right? Um, so you've got intensity, you've got time duration, and then the third point that you touched on, which I think personally I think is the most interesting, is a psychological point of view. Um so feeling tired, feeling like you're not you're getting a boost from some carbohydrates, be that some sweets or a sugary drink or something like that. There's been loads of really interesting studies done showing that um even swilling your mouth out with uh sugary beverage and spitting that drink out increases performance. Um, because psychologically your body thinks that they're sugar available.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Um I psychologically have experienced that in my second ever Hyrux race where I stopped for the first time ever to and I had I I try and run with those little like cardboard cups and drink. It doesn't happen, but I managed to get a sugary red bull into the back of my throat and I couldn't swallow it. And I literally felt like I just I don't know, something just happened, and it is it was that was my first hand experience of it's psychological, just having that sugar hit the back of my tongue. It sent some signal to my brain that I had carbs in my system and I had a second wave. I hadn't even swallowed anything.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Yeah, and that and that has been that's been proven in in science on multiple studies. Um, and the the performance benefit from swilling your mouth out with a a sugary beverage and and spitting it out is on a par with actually drinking the beverage. It's not it's not like there's a slight difference. There's minimal difference between actually drinking a Lucas aid or a power aid or a gator aid or whatever it might be, or swilling your mouth out with that and spitting it out, um, which is which is really interesting. Um, because the other thing that that gets sort of hammered is the the hydration side of things. As long as you're hydrated um in the build-up to a race, the likelihood of you getting dehydrated during even a marathon is it's the hours and days before the event which which causes the hydration.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Not and I I actually quite actively now, and especially when I'm doing hierarchic sessions, I try when I this will end up being up here. I try not to drink anything throughout my session because I think I'm not gonna raise any water. It's a test of how hydrated I am. Um before I'd be glogging liquids all sessions thinking I need to stay hydrated. But actually, as long as I hydrated the night before and the the the few hours before, you you shouldn't need to touch anything.

Transition To Strength For Hyrox

Strong Enough Versus Getting Stronger

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Yeah, and again, there's a psychological aspect to that as well. If you feel thirsty when you're training, um then there is a uh uh that has a got a detrimental effect to performance as well. So there's nothing wrong with chucking some water in your mouth, or if you can swallow a little bit fine, if you even if it's just wet in your mouth up, same principle, so that you're not feeling thirsty. Um, but in reality, you probably shouldn't feel thirsty if you've been relatively well hydrated in the buildup to that race. So um, yeah, it's it's it comes down to preparation in the long part of it from a performance point of view. Um and and obviously you wouldn't race uh fasted, you wouldn't race dehydrated on on purpose. You'd be looking to fuel that race as effectively as possible. Um there's also, I think, from a from a performance point of view and uh uh uh sports coaching point of view, athlete point of view, um, some repeatability side of things. So there's there's so you'll have some notes in your training, you know, when we're doing sims, that you fuel the night before the same as you would before a race, that you drink as much as you would in the build-up to that a sim as you would in a race. So you can iron out these little um idiosyncrasies, right? Where if you're if you're struggling um because certain carbohydrates don't sit well on you, if you're um if you're the sort of person that you know doesn't deal well with fiber, you know, most most of them I I would argue that you probably you should be cutting your fiber three to four days out from from a race and trying to keep things um into to more simple carbohydrates, um, all of these other things. Now, these are things that you need to put into practice. They're not something that I would change on race day, having not done that at least two or three times in training sessions of a similar time frame, similar intensity. Um, so if you're doing uh an 85% effort sim, you should fuel it like you're fueling a race. Because the feedback you'll get from that is so much more powerful and important than if you go to a race and you see all these people like, oh, he's taking an energy gel, maybe that's what I should do. And you see it happen in marathons and half marathons and this sort of stuff all the time. Somebody that's never run a marathon before and they've trained for a marathon, um, and they've done a lot of you know, 15, 20, 30k runs in their in their sessions. And just slogged it out. And then they get to a marathon and then, like, right, I'm gonna have an energy gel every 40 minutes and all this sort of stuff, and then all of a sudden they shit their pants because they're not used to fucking having that in their system. They're not used to the thing. Yeah, and I think you know that's that's um that's something where a a coach can help, but a bit of common sense comes into play as well, right?

Individual Weaknesses And Targeted Strength

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Yeah, I I think the reason I wanted to bring this one up is and I think it's a good thing, is there's so much more readily available literature now on on nutrition and what you should be doing. It's now been proven that once was before was that you can have considered, I think it was a maximum of 60 grams of carbs an hour. There's guys doing 200, 300 grams of carbs an hour. Like it's all been like a bit, and I and it's great, but I I think and I do believe people that train hard and intense are probably underfueling. However, that is there aren't many people training properly hard and intense. And I've spoken to so many people who read these posts on Instagram about underfueling and and this and that, and you shouldn't train fasted because you're depleted, and this and this and that. And I've spoken to a lot of people who have been told they have to eat by their coach two bagels before they go to the gym in the morning, and they need to eat 700 grams of carbs before the hero trace because you need to be carb loaded, or females who are training first thing in the morning and have been told that it's bad for their hormones to train on the fasted state. Okay, yes, there is. But how hard are you training? So I think I wanted to bring this up for listeners to kind of understand who they are and where they're at with their training because it's it's so different. I think I I'm I'm so obsessed with my nutrition that it really wires me up when I see people eating two bagels to come and do a chest session for 45 minutes because they've been told they can't be fasted. But actually, they ate a Domino's pizza the night before. So they've probably got enough calories in them to train fasted for three days, or vice versa. The amount of lifters I see in the gym who do a free rep max of whatever it is, and then they sit down for half an hour to have three squares bars because they've been told they need to fuel. And but then you've got the other donut, like myself, for example, in the past, who's doing three hours of non-stop high ROX work faster. And it it's so it's it's a case of it's it's an it depends scenario. Can you train faster? Yes. Should you train faster? It depends. It depends on what I think. Listeners need to know where they're at with the training, kind of have an honest conversation with themselves and how hard am I actually training?

Who Needs Strength Work And How Much

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Do I and what am I training for, right? What do I want to get out of this training? So, you know, some some people might be training for a high rox, but that might just be I've got a high rox in six months' time and I'm just doing my training, and it's something that I put in the calendar for the sake of it. Now, do I need to worry about getting 700 grams of carbs in you know three days before my hard training session and this, that, and the other, or is it just something where you know I'm gonna be happy going sub two hours in a high rox, I just need to live my life day to day and just and and and it's got to fit in with your lifestyle as well, right? So yeah, and I think that's a big one. Yeah, there's aspects to it, right? Is that you know, you if you if you're what I would call a recreational trainer or a um a weekend warrior or whatever you want to call it, somebody that just enjoys a bit of training, you know, they take it a little bit more seriously than a guy that comes in once or twice a week, but it's also just a part of their life, it's not their life. Um, then there's got to be a bit of give and take with that, right? Um, you know, these are the sort of people that aren't concerned about um their their glycogen stores, they're not taking creatine, they're not doing all these other things, they're going up for a couple of pints on the weekend. It's just something that's cool. I just enjoy training. Now, that doesn't mean that they don't want to get better, but it's not the driving force behind everything that they do. Now, you've then got that middle period of people that are taking it a little bit more seriously, want to get better, and they might start looking into supplementation, they might start looking into fueling their workouts a bit differently. They might jump on a program or follow it or something rather than it just being going in and doing what they feel like doing. And that that middle bracket there would would start taking these things a little bit more seriously. And then you've got people that are in the top tier that are looking to improve it's it's part of their life, it's their sport and whatever. Now, those are the guys that are going to be really considering, you know, do I train my my my timing for training, my nutrient timing around my training, um, my recovery protocols, my my all of these other things that are like the sort of one or two percent difference makers.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

Um, that that's where that this sort of stuff comes into play, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah, no, I definitely think nutrition's a one percent thing. And I think for the to round this up, I think for like the the person who trains, because they're that they're not doing it to be an elite athlete. I I really do think nutrition, and going back to the original question, faster training, should you do it, can you do it? Yes, you can. I think it boils down to intuition in terms of how do you feel? Do you wake up? So there are some days when I wake up and think, no matter if it's six in the morning, eight o'clock, nine o'clock, and think, I physically don't think I could run for more than one minute without having a handful of dates or some fizzy worms or whatever it is. There are other days where I've had a pretty chill day the day before, I've had a massive meal the night before, and I wake up and I'm still pretty full for the night before. Actually, I'm just gonna bang out, and I could sometimes train for three hours without anything going in my mouth as long as I'm hydrated. So I think it's it's going off field. Don't do whatever you feel best, and I think the less my takeaway from it is unless you are that 1%, 0.1%, do what you want. Um, I've done both and fit your lifestyle as well. Make it fit your lifestyle, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Um, yeah, I think that's a good point. I think that's how that's what I would cap it at is that you know, for for 90 99% of the population, it's okay, would you rather have an extra half hour in bed or get up half hour earlier?

Defining Strength Endurance In Practice

SPEAKER_01 26:16

And and that's the conversation I've had with people who've been told by their coach they've got to have a bagel so they're now getting up half an hour early. In my view, is well scrap that, you're not going to the Olympics. I personally would rather 45 minutes extra in bed and have a nice peanut butter bagel before I go to bed that night when I can sit down with a cup of tea, watch TV. It's much more enjoyable. Just do that. Yeah. Um, I think yeah, we'll wrap that one up there. The next one was more into higher specific training, unfortunately. Uh, my my favorite topic was strength training. How important is it? Is it important? Um, and I wanted to kind of without going down too much of a wrap our whole talk about strength endurance as well. Uh, I'm gonna give you kind of my opinion on it, and then I'd love you to kind of give your your opinion and your kind of science-backed evidence on it all. So my opinion on it is it's again it dependent. Let's say we're talking about a pro weight. Um do you need aspects of of strength? Yes. Is it as how important is it? I I personally don't think it is very important as much as I used to. I I think someone could get away and be a considerably good hierarchy athlete by doing a lot more endurance work and strength endurance work, bike work, as opposed to hitting heavy squats, deadlift, uh bench, which I want what I once thought was was very much needed. I've been shocked personally. Um, and again, this is so person-dependent, individual dependent, depending on what their prior experiences. For someone like myself who did a lot of weights and and weight training before, I've been shocked that I'm skinny as ever at the moment, but I've still maintained a good amount of muscle, which I didn't think was possible before, um, from doing one, maybe two strength sessions a week. Um I think as long as there's some form of incorporation of lifting weights, whether that be on a sled or doing squats once or twice a week just to keep that keep that stimulus there, I don't think there's there's a huge need for it. Um what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 28:47

There's uh a couple of different schools of thought on this, and I think the the main thing, and it's similar to a conversation I've had nine billion times with CrossFitters, is that as long as you are strong enough, then you don't necessarily need to be spending a lot of time getting stronger. Um now the argument that I would have with yourself, for example, is because you've come from a um and I'm gonna loosely call bodybuilding a strength sport. Um, because you've come from a sport where Yeah, let's just jump in there.

Training Muscular Endurance Without Breaking Down

SPEAKER_01 29:28

I was never strong. I used to do triple drop sets on a leg extension.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

But you used to do a lot of lifting, right? Or a lot of a resistance training, right? You don't you'd have done a lot more resistance training than somebody who gets plucked off the street and just goes starts doing high rox classes, for example. Um now, does that mean that that you are stronger than Joe Bloggs, who just does running work and just practices the eight stations? I would argue probably yes. Um, so does that mean that you don't need to do as much strength work now because you have a base of strength work talking about base that we talked about in one of the other episodes? Um, you've got a uh a relatively solid base of strength work in comparison to your peers. Um, and again, I would probably argue yes. So you're in a in a position where you are undoubtedly strong enough because your times show that, right? You're you're in an around an hour to you know pushing for a sub-hour throw. Um, you're not one of these people that gets stuck on a step sled and stares at it, right? You do the wall balls unbroken in almost every time. Um, so you know, it's uh your look your lower body strength or strength endurance is good enough that you can push on these things. However, your lunges have been uh an aspect of weakness because of quad tendinitis and lack of training there. Would I would argue that if we did some more single leg strength work, would your lunges get better?

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Yeah, no, I I agree there.

Smarter Variance Beats Mindless Volume

SPEAKER_00 31:02

I agree there. Um so so so the science behind it and and the point that I'm making is that as long as you're strong enough to do the station, then you don't necessarily need to get much stronger. However, if you did get stronger, the science is relatively straightforward, is that the lower the percentage of your one max that each of those repetitions are, the less fatiguing it is for you. So if you've got a hundred kilo lunge and you've got to do 30 kilo lunges, then it's only 30% for you. Um if you've only got a 60 kilo lunge and you've got to do 30 kilo lunges, then that's 50% for you, and that's gonna be more fatiguing for you because it's a higher um RPE, it's a higher percentage of your maximal effort, right? Now that is not a linear curve. Just you know, there's a cap to that. You know, what would would I say we need to get you a 200 kilo lunge so it only feels like 15% effort? Well, no, because the amount of time and effort it would take to get that much stronger is going to take away from all of the other training that we have to do. Um, so I I my my suggestion, similar to what we just talked about with the nutrition side of things, is it kind of depends. Are you strong enough? Yes, then let's focus on endurance and maintaining that strength, slash getting a little a tiny bit stronger in the most efficient way possible while focusing on the other aspects of the sport. Are you strong enough? No. Well, we need to get you strong enough. So I would then push you to the point where actually we need to get you to it, and that would be the priority, because if you're not strong enough, you can't play. If you can't push the sled, it doesn't matter if you've got a 12-minute 5k. Because if you literally can't move the sled, which is you're not gonna you're not gonna complete the race.

Programming Specificity And Year-Round Base

SPEAKER_01 32:53

And it's and that's shown. The reason they couldn't have it is as I was listening to a podcast this morning with you, and it and it I was thinking of yourself, and it was it's a gent called Cole Ern who's just got into Elite 15 and he's an ex-crossfit athlete, and his strength numbers are through the roof, like 450 pounds squat, like big, big guy. He's the quickest on stations by mar. And and the question was asked to him, and he said, Well, I didn't CrossFit for 20 years because I I lift once a week now, maybe tops. And I was thinking, for example, yourself coming into HyROX with how strong you are. If I said to you, right, we've got six months to get you the quickest time possible, you could probably get away with doing absolutely nothing but running and high rock stuff for six months and still be one of the strongest athletes on the field. Whether someone like you said, who's never lifted in their life? There's there's guys I've seen who do run 14-minute 5Ks and they're doing one hour 20 high-roxes. So it's it's it it depends, I guess. Yeah, probably going back to the beginning, we probably should have just started that with it depends.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Um yeah, and and the answer to every single question you're gonna give me is gonna be either not necessarily, or it depends. And if it's not, like and and and and if you're asking any, um I use this term extremely loosely in my case, but any expert in any sort of field, and they give you a black and white answer, I would run a mile. Because the likelihood is they're either zealoided in their approach and they're like, this is the only way you can do something, well there's an that's been disproven so many times. There's there's 19 million different ways of getting strong, fit, powerful. Yeah, there are best principles and there's best practice and there's tried and tested methods. But if somebody comes to me and is like, all right, I need to get stronger, there's probably 10 or 15 different ways I can get them stronger. If somebody just turns around and goes, Oh, yeah, you're gonna get stronger, you've got to do this, and it's the only way to get stronger, run a mile. Um, and if somebody turns around and says, Oh, you know, you you you don't need to get strong to do something, well, it depends. How strong are you? How strong are you in every single aspect of that? Is that different aspects as well, isn't it? Is and again it's like mainly lower body strength, right? In in high rocks, there's there's not a lot of upper body strength.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

That's one thing I would say is that you could maybe if you wanted to look half decent still, kind of give some argument that you should be doing a bit of bench and push-ups because it'll make your burpees more powerful. But actually, yeah you could probably never lift an upper body weight ever again and be fine.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Um back to the point you just got, Sorgo.

Listener Feedback, Q&A, And Programme CTA

SPEAKER_01 35:33

No, I was just gonna say it just highlights again, kind of plugs plugs yourself and and and then in how important having a coach is because this it depends, is for example, myself, like what you touched on there, I I push the sleds relatively for someone who's 10 kilos like the most pro athletes, I I'm always in the top 10 overall in the sled pool, which is weird. Yet my lunges, I'm in the bottom 10%. Granted, a lot of that is my knee issues, but it's even without the knee, it it is still a weak movement, always has been. I don't think I've ever probably lunged more than 50 kilos in my life, which actually, when the lunges are 30 kilos on the day and for 100 meters, it's very different. Whereas I used to squat 160 kilos, so actually the sled push is relatively easy. The lunges, you you've kind of highlighted there, like it's a weakness. We've hidden away from the fact that it's my knee, which is probably 70% of the reason, but it is always a weakness. So, like you said, there's so many different elements of strength, it does highlight how important having someone who knows you to kind of put that into place.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yeah, for sure. And I think like going back to what you said earlier, in terms of if if I was gonna go into high rocks now and it was solely gonna be the only thing that I focused on, right? Um, which is isn't the case. But if I was like, right, okay, this next season now, I'm not doing anything, I'm putting all my eggs in one basket, and that is that by the end of the year I want to get a sub-hour pro, for example. Probably gonna struggle in terms of getting the running times that I need to get, even with a year of dedicated time, but might do. But I can guarantee you I'd be able to do it in the stations. Um, and I could I could guarantee you I would do that by doing maybe one full-body weightlifting session a week. I wouldn't be doing anything strength related in terms of growing strength. I'd be looking to maintain or lose as little strength as possible in the pursuit of that goal, and that's a privileged position, right? Um you you look at the majority of um of these guys who are in the the Elite 15, and they're probably doing two strength sessions a week. Um, maybe three if they're on the on the slighter side, but probably two. Um, and you've got a lot of people that are already in comparison to their peers, again, that's another caveat, and not necessarily, or it depends. In comparison to the their peers, they're strong. You know, Hunter McIntyre is a strong dude. Um, he doesn't need to be doing strength stuff in comparison to um the the rest of the Elite 15. He's also a very good runner, so he and there's a reason he's always pushing that to those top places. Now, my argument would be now you know this better than me, but is he probably the strongest? Probably not now that we've got this this CrossFit that's come into the into the mix, but was Hunter probably the strongest guy before that?

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Yeah, he probably still is, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

So is is he good at high rocks because he's stronger than everyone else?

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Yeah, who knows?

SPEAKER_00 38:43

It's and and and then you turn around and go, Oh, actually, am I strong enough? Because the strong guy who can run these numbers, yeah, these numbers is the guy that's winning the races or the top two or three every time.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

I do feel yeah, I think you've known it that it it this whole it depends, is if you've got that strength background, the answer is no. If you don't have it, the answer is yes. What's gonna be the the the biggest aspect? Running is always gonna be the biggest biggest aspect, but if you're not strong, um and I think the easiest way to answer this question is if you have a strength background, no. If you do not have a strength background, yes. Very simply, because you cannot finish a higher aux if you've got no strength admin to you. You cannot finish a higher aux if you don't have any running element to you.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Yeah, and I think like going back to what I was saying about the CrossFit side of things, and the argument I have quite regularly with that side of things is that there there are set numbers that you you know are going to come up. Now, if a one rep max comes up, it is what it is, right? You you can lift what you can lift and you're gonna get ranked accordingly. Um that's increasingly rare in CrossFit now. What you often see more of is a set. Load four reps or um going through a ladder, for example, of 10 reps at this way, eight reps at this way, six reps at this way, four reps at this way, and whatever. And you see patterns in these weights emerging, right? So that might be, for example, with your your clean or your clean and jerks, the top bar is normally like a 143 um because everything's in pounds, because it's yanky. Um so like a 143 clean and jerk. So if your one rep max is 144, technically you're strong enough. If you're capable, if you're capable of doing that, more importantly, are you capable of doing that under fatigue after you've done 20 reps at 100 and 120 else? Now, if you're incredibly fit and incredibly technically proficient, the answer could well be yes, but it's unlikely. Whereas if your one rep max was 150, you're more likely to be able to do it. If your one rep max was 160, then you're more likely to be able to do it easily. So adding strength to that element is is only going to make you better at that lift, potentially better at that lift. You still need to be fit enough to do the volume to get to that point, and it's ironically um not always the strongest in terms of the person with the highest one rep max wins those ladders, but it's normally somebody that's in like the top four or five, but has all of the other elements in terms of the fitness and the technical proficiency and the uh muscular endurance. And I would argue that that will probably, as the sport of high rox increases um in popularity, you'll probably find similar to that is that you know, I think we talked about before your perfect athlete coming into high rox and I said a decathlete because they're gonna have some element of strength and some element of power output as well as being a very good runner. Um, you're gonna get a lot of people coming from triathlon from um middle distance running who are gonna be incredibly quick, but it's gonna take them a long time for um those lunges and those sleds to feel anywhere near as easy as it does for under McIntyre.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

I yeah, my and my my uh you just touched on there. My final question is, and I'm hoping this is one for listeners as well, because again, it's something I see on social media on Instagram all the time at the moment, and I even I don't quite can't put my finger on what exactly it is. Strength endurance, muscular endurance is uh the key for cross-fit hierarchy. It's everywhere. You to the lenders, for example, one thing I saw recently was you it's a 30 kilo sandbag on your bag for pro weight, 20 kilos for open weight. That's not heavy. You don't need to be strong, you need strength, endurance, and muscular endurance, or you actually just need to be fit enough to get to that end of the race, vice versa. Like you just said in the CrossFit event, if you've got a heavy lift, it's not so much the wrong work, it's the fact that you've got to do that lift for an hour because what is strength, endurance, and muscular endurance? Is it being able to just, I don't know, go on a bike for two hours? Or like you just said, is it being able to do a CrossFit event and do a free rep squat at 150 kilos 10 rounds over whilst doing a 1k run and a 1k ski in between? What what is strength muscular endurance? And how do you train for it? The answer is without saying it depends.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

It's it's both of those things, right? So it's um strength strength endurance is the ability to repeat an effort at a given percentage of your one rep max, right? Um now that effort could be 10 reps, you know, it could be a 10 rep max squat, it could be a hundred reps. Umes in high rocks, for example, you know, you're looking at a hundred meter lunge, then it's gonna be for most people in and around a hundred lunges. Um now if you have a higher one rep max, then the percentage that you're lifting for that those reps would be lower. So um, like again, that the example we talked about, if you had a hundred kilo lunge and you're just plucking out of the Rs printer, then it's 30% for you for the lunges. Now, somebody with better strength endurance than somebody else might only have a 90 kilo lunge, but might be able to do those hundred lunges faster than somebody that's got a hundred kilo lunge. And why is that? The answer is because they're fitter. The answer is because they're more um efficient in using energy and replenishing energy stores um through creating phosphate systems through the uh anaerobic and anaerobic uh and aerobic anaerobic anaerobic um uh energy systems, right? So if if they are able to micro recover between reps better than other people, then they will be able to maintain that effort for longer. Now, interestingly, um, if you've you know ever coached females and males, women tend to have a much higher strength endurance than than men when it comes to things like a back squat. If I was gonna say to my average um male CrossFit guy to do a max effort set at 80% of their one rep max back squat, you might expect something between 8 and 15 reps, um, probably more like 8 to 12 reps at 80%, right? Um, if I gave that to a female at a similar level, and I'm talking at the the higher to elite level, I'd be more inclined to see 20 plus reps at 80%. Now, there's a couple of reasons for that. Firstly, because their their maximal strength is lower. Um so it the actual force that's going through the body and everything is lower. They tend to be smaller athletes, so their range of motion is slightly smaller as well. But also, genetically speaking, they they recover quicker in between reps at submaximal loads. Um so, in terms of the training that you would do to get better at these things, there's a couple of things, and you'll see these sort of things in your program as well, where we look look at what's called um IGT or sorry, IWT um interval weight training, where you might do uh an 800-meter run or row or ski or bike or whatever it is into sort of 10 reps of uh an exercise, a simple exercise, uh compound lift like a squat or a deadlift, into then um reps at a more uh isolated muscle group. So that could be a lunge or a um a power clean or something like that. Okay, where you're looking at doing these things pre-fatigued rather than just doing the the simple way of doing it, you're like, Oh, I'm gonna do 50 reps of back squats until my 50 rep max is higher and then my strength endurance is better.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

This is what before you finish off, I just want to jump in, and this is where it all came from is that we did a workout around three, four weeks ago where it was, I don't know what it was, it maybe was 20 cal uh T2 bike into 20, 30 catapult wings, and I couldn't do it. And I was like, huh? And I thought, right, that's muscular endurance going from all I can say doing a same 20 cal echo bike into uh 10 trap bar deadlifts into 10 oh hps, that's muscular endurance. Not what I initially thought was you come to me and say, Matt, your lung is a shit, mate. And I go, all right, you need to increase on you need to get better muscular endurance. I would have gone away and thought, right, I'm gonna show him. I'm gonna now do loads and lunges a day. I'm gonna do five sets of 30 on each leg split squat with 10 kilos on my hand and build my muscular endurance by doing a weighted exercise for loads and loads of reps. That's in my head what muscular endurance was. And it wasn't till doing that workout recently, which is where like these full body full body metcons of deadlift, kettlebell swings, overhead press, um, clap push-ups, six rounds for time, that's muscular endurance. Is that what you're where you're getting at there?

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Yeah, so that the you're you're right on both counts, right? If you did turn around and do do 10 sets of 30 lunges, you are training muscular endurance, right? But it's not the it's a way to get better at muscular endurance, but it's not the best way, it's not the most efficient way. So my job as a coach, right, is to um is is to give you the lowest dose response, right? To give you the least amount of work for the most amount of gain. And then we can always increase the amount of work when things plateau, right? Now, one of the things that people get wrong way more often than not from a coaching or a programming point of view is that they isolate movements and muscle groups too much, and they forget that fatigue is systemic. So being tired, quote unquote tired, being fatigued, um, is not always in isolation. So there's a reason why if I turned around to you and said, right, do um 20 back squats at 60, 70 kilos, something that's like, yeah, I can definitely do that, but by the last five reps, I'm gonna be like, oh, God, this is quite tough, right? And then I said, do a max effort set of push-ups straight afterwards, as soon as you put that bar down. Right. I guarantee you that your set of push-ups will be 20 to 30% less than what you did if you do 20, uh did a max set of push-ups fresh, even though it's a completely different muscle group that you haven't worked at all when you're doing your back squat, right? Because there's systemic fatigue, there's systemic lactate buildup, there's higher heart rate, there's blood pressure, there's all of these things that come into account. Now, ways of cutting that is that we can then create that response by giving you something else before the thing we're trying to get better at, right? So rather than hammering you with 150 different single-leg squat variations, which would end up being a situation where tomorrow you definitely wouldn't be able to do any lower body work and you probably wouldn't be able to walk. Um, could we get the same response or the same um stimulus only doing 50 lunges by pre-fatiguing you in a different way? And the answer is yes. So you fatigue you in a different way so that you're still you're effectively getting the last 50 reps of that 150 reps by only doing 50 reps. And that's what you're doing, is you're working on that muscular endurance in a way where we're fatiguing the state, but it's also more recoverable. And like we talked about before, you can only recover, uh you can only get as good as you can recover. So if you're not recovering from sessions, you're leading you're leading yourself down a path where you're gonna overreach and you're constantly gonna be underperforming and not getting better. Whereas if we can give you a stimulus where yes, it's still hard in that session, but the actual damage that we're doing to that muscle group is much less and much more recoverable, it then means we can train more and then we can get better.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Yeah, I makes it makes so much sense to me, and I hope that makes sense to to you guys listening because I know it's something that a lot of people probably think about, um, or at least if they haven't seen it, they know they think it themselves in terms of I need to get better at this, I need to do this, and yeah, it's something that I thought about a lot, and I thought this will probably resonate with with quite a lot of people, so yeah, that is perfect.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Um, yeah, I think the the one thing to to sort of hammer that point home is that it war balls for me used to be a uh something I really hated, I didn't like in CrossFit, and it's like it's it's a movement I just I used to do my heading, right? And um it could be an easy thing to say. There's a there's an old CrossFit legend called Miko Salo. Um he won the CrossFit games in 2009, I think. Um 2009 or 2010. And um I I met him and trained with him a couple of years after that, and uh, I said, you know, I I struggle with war balls like mentally. I think I don't know whether it's or not, it's because I'm waiting for the ball to come down and I've got that little bit of there's only so fast I can do them, and I'm just like they just they just do I'm just not great at them. And he just looked at me dead time in the eyes and he just went, do a thousand war balls a day. And I was like, I thought he was joking. I was like, okay, good one. He's like, okay, he's not joking. Do a thousand war balls a day a day, they get easier, and just walked off. And I was like, fucking how like that's how he attacked everything. That's how he he was using okay. My lunges are shit. I'm gonna do a million lunges until lunges aren't shit anymore. Now it'll be no shock to any of these people that his legs fell apart and he broke in 19 different ways before he ever won the CrossFit Games again, because that's how he attacked everything, and that it's it's not necessarily wrong in terms of yes, you will get better at war balls, you do a thousand war balls a day, but you will almost definitely get injured.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

Because and that you jump on that, that's what everyone does now with war balls. It's hilarious. The amount you've probably seen it. Need to get need to get my knees war balls down by 30 seconds for next race. So I'm gonna do 150 wall balls, 200 wall balls every single day at the end of every single session. And I think, yeah, I used to do that, and it did get me good at wall balls, but I've also got a knee which I struggle to walk on sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

And and and it's the same same principles, right? Is that you you watch um you've got fucking power lifters, right? Who are doing three exercises squat, bench, deadlift. That's all they do, that's all they get tested on, right? They do 19 million different variations of these things. They don't just do squats, benches, and deadlifts, they do all this accessory work, they do all these other things. Why? Because if they just did squats, bench, and deadlifts in any sort of volume that they needed to get better, they would be walking around so imbalanced and so broken, and their joints would have gone through so much um wear and tear that they'd never be able to make it to the platform. So, why do we think just because it's lighter and it's higher reps, that okay, all you need to do is a million of the one exercise, when actually what you need to be doing is ironically, more single leg stuff will get you better at wall balls, deadlifts will get you better at wall balls because it's improving your an upright torso, um, you know, shoulder work, mobility work, all of these other things that can make you better, just this one aspect of a hierarchy. And if you look again when we talk about working with a coach and working with a program, for example, um somebody asked me this on my QA the other day, and on my um they said, you know, if I if I want to get better at HIROX, should I just focus on the eight exercises and my running? And the answer is no. But if you look at my uh or hour, I should say, um, eight-week race prep, it is disproportionately edged towards those eight exercises because you've only got eight weeks, and it's assuming you've done um 46 weeks, 44 weeks of all of the other stuff through the rest of the year, and now we're getting specific. Now, if you were then somebody that uh is on the rolling program, which is sort of peaks in 12 weeks, and then it's a four-week rolling calendar, there's a lot more variation in there. You're gonna get dumbbells, you're gonna get snatches, you're gonna get a dumbbell snatch, as I should say, you're gonna get devil's presses, you're gonna get single egg box step-ups, you're gonna get all of these other things that will make you better at war balls and sled pushes and rope climb, um rope pulling the sled with a rope, all of these.

SPEAKER_01 56:03

I hope there's no rope climbs.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

You're gonna get all of these things that uh that are gonna get you better at these other things without just hammering the same movement patterns over and over again. There's two reasons for that. One is that mentally the variance is gonna help you, it's not gonna get so fucking boring. Um, and secondly, it's improving your well-roundedness as an athlete, general physical fairness as an athlete, which means you're less likely to get injuries and niggles. And like, you know, the more injured you are, the less training you're doing, the less training you're doing, the worse you're getting. So why would you do the same thing over and over again and break yourself in an in an attempt to get 1% better?

SPEAKER_01 56:41

Yeah, no, I completely agree. I completely agree. No, I think that answers that really well. Um, yeah, from my end, that's that's those those two topics boxed off. I hope that helps everyone. I think they're quite they weren't as in weren't as technical maybe as some of the other topics we've we've brushed on, but I just thought it'd be nice to to do a few topics were a bit more not basic, because we we don't really do basic, do we? We we go as hard as we can on everything, but just a little bit more all-round and designed. A bit more general. I know everyone talks about training fast, and you could read 101 things and still not get an answer. Um, and I just thought muscular endurance and strength work is also something that's coming up, not just NIROX CrossFit, hybrid training in general. How much strength work do you need to do and and what is this word strength endurance? So I think we've around about answered all of that, which is great. So, yeah, before we round off, are anything you wanted to touch upon or speak about?

SPEAKER_00 57:38

Or no, I don't think so. I think we're um we're covering things quite nicely. I think I I the the load of the feedback we've had from the the listeners and soon to be viewers um is that you know they really like the aspect where you're coming at and and asking questions and then going with going down deeper down the rabbit hole and and delving into it. And I think that's what we're doing now, which is great. So um, and and if if any of you guys, I know you I'm getting loads of people messaging me on my Q ⁇ A's on a Sunday um when I'm walking the puppy. Um, but seeing with Matt, if you if you've got any ideas or anything that you want us to talk about, then we're we're open to suggestions um for sure. And um, yeah, hopefully you're you're enjoying these conversations as much as we enjoy having them.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

Yeah, we that that I think is the greatest thing about this, isn't it? Is that we we love we literally have to stop ourselves from going on. There's there's no force, oh we've got to do a podcast this week. I think we'd do one twice a day every day if we could. We just appreciate that you guys like listening to us, but you'd probably hate us if we did them as much as we wanted to. Um so no, that's really good. And honestly, to to add to that, I think the the programming's going down really well. Um, so for any of you guys who are looking to maybe get involved and and high rocks, not really knowing where to start with it or want to have a sort of plan and a goal, like you say, we've got probably a little bit too late to prep for the Manchester uh High Rocks in two weeks, but we've got uh Glasgow coming up in the middle of March, we've got the European Championships in London uh back end of March, we've got the big one in Cardiff at the end of April. Um so there's plenty of races coming up. Like you say, we've got the the eight-week plan, twelve-week plans, and the rolling plans. So if anyone's anyone's keen or wants to know more, then then yeah, feel free to reach out to to either of us.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

Yeah, for sure. And um, yeah, for those of you that are following it and and improving all the time, it's it's great seeing your progress, and thanks for thanks for tagging us and thanks for um yeah, buying into the to the process. Um and yeah, don't we've got to say this every week. Like and share, and subscribe, and do the thing everyone asks you to do on all the other podcasts.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

Lovely to speak to you, lovely jumper you've got going, mate. Lovely jumper. Take care guys, bye-bye.