The Surrogacy Journey Uncovered with the Surrogacy Father

Welcome to Headnotes, the podcast by Whitehead Monckton that spells out the law in plain English. In this episode, we dive into the deeply personal and often complex world of surrogacy. Our host, Judith Harling-Coward, a senior family solicitor at Whitehead Monckton, sits down with Shaun Thomas, the founder and consultant at The Surrogacy Father. Shaun shares his first-hand experience of building his family of three children through surrogacy as a two-dad household. Together, they unpack the reality of the process, moving past the jargon to offer warm, practical, and highly informative guidance for intended parents. Whether you are just starting to research your options, looking at international destinations, or wanting to understand the legal pitfalls to avoid, this episode provides a foundational roadmap for your path to parenthood. 

In this episode, we are covering:

• The reasons why intended parents might choose surrogacy to build their family, including the desire for a biological connection. 
• The unexpected factors to consider early on, such as medical care abroad, NICU costs, and potential political or immigration changes. 
• Why surrogacy is a marathon and not a sprint, and the importance of professional counselling and peer support networks. 
• The challenges of domestic surrogacy in the UK, including potential delays and the difficulty of finding a match. 
• How to pick your surrogacy destination first by understanding both the specific surrogacy laws and the legal parentage laws in that country. 
• The absolute necessity of securing two sets of independent lawyers—one in your home country and one in your destination country—to prevent bureaucratic nightmares. 
• Major red flags to watch out for when vetting agencies, such as restricted communication with the surrogate, high-pressure sales tactics, or clinics performing double embryo transfers. 
• The importance of having open, age-appropriate conversations with your children early on so they grow up proud of their unique conception story. 

External Resources & Links Mentioned:

• The Surrogacy Father (ShaunThomas): https://thesurrogacyfather.com/

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Disclaimer: This podcast provides general information and does not constitute legal advice. Timelines and regulations are subject to change.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:01

This is HeadMotes, a podcast from White HeadMotes coming up on this episode.

SPEAKER_09 0:08

Really helpful guidance for intended parents out there considering embarking on a surrogacy journey. And I think the clear message is to make sure that you seek not only the legal advice at an early stage, but also the emotional and practical support as early as possible.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Don't underestimate how heavy surrogacy can feel. Sarrogacy is joyful, but it can be mentally demanding. Like I say, it's it's a marathon, not a sprint. Sarrogacy almost forces you to become uh comfortable with uncertainty because there's so many factors that are uncontrollable. Because skipping legal advice, I think, is one of the biggest risks that I see intended parents take because they leave that to one side or they might want to, you know, save some money and it's about choosing what's right for you and your family, not about what is the the the quickest or the cheapest option.

SPEAKER_09 0:57

Did you consider domestic services? You did.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

We started off in the UK. And just for us, it just unfortunately didn't work out and we started and we looked abroad and we went international.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

This is Headnote, a podcast from White Head Mountain.

SPEAKER_07 1:17

It just needs to be clear. We're here to help you see laws and lawyers differently. This podcast will do the latest developments in law. From business challenges to find it. Made easy to understand without the changes. We are changing the way you see lawyers. This is head notes by Whitehead Motors. Legal Excellence, tailored to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

And a very warm welcome to this week's HeadNotes podcast from Whitehead Motors. Now, if you are considering surrogacy as a means to start or even expand your family, this episode is for you. In the studio this week, we have our senior family solicitor, Judith Harling Howard, alongside the founder of the Surrogacy Father, Europe's leading independent surrogacy consultant, Mr. Sean Thomas. We discussed his personal journey, his and his partner's decision to choose international over domestic surrogacy, what to look out for, the emotional highs and lows, and what to generally expect when navigating the process, and why it's so important to have legal support. Just a quick note before we begin. We've also filmed this episode, and it's available to watch over on YouTube right now on our channel. Just search Whitehead Moncton and find our HeadNotes podcast. Finally, please remember that this podcast provides general information and does not constitute legal advice. Now, let's get into the episode.

SPEAKER_05 2:48

This is HeadNotes, a podcast from Whitehead Moncton.

SPEAKER_09 2:52

Hello, my name is Judith Harling Coward. I am a senior family solicitor at Whitehead Moncton, supporting modern families and offering surrogacy advice to intended parents. And today we're going to talk about, this is our second podcast, we're going to talk about the practical and emotional tips for intended parents considering or currently embarking on their journey through surrogacy. And I have here with me John Thomas, who is the founder and the consultant at the Surrogacy Consultant at Surrogacy Father. He's a valuable resource for people considering Surrogacy and is able to offer lots of practical and emotional tips which would be invaluable for people that going through this journey. So just to say hello to Dawn.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Hi, Judith.

SPEAKER_09 3:51

Hi. I just wanted to I thought it might be useful to for uh people listening to find out about a little bit about your own journey first of all, before we kind of have a little discussion about that and some broader aspects. But you obviously chose to build your uh family uh through surrogacy. And I just wanted to ask you why what led you to um choosing um this particular journey to build your family um first of all.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yeah, so I for us, me and my other half Paul, we kind of always, it was even on our first dates we kind of mentioned about uh children. And so when we were talking about it, even though it's at early stages, we never went into like the practicalities of how we would have children. It was only when we got a bit older, more mature, more developed in our own relationship that we started to think about how are we actually going to go about doing this? Are we going to look at fostering, are we gonna look at adoption? And again, surrogacy was very new to us. We we we were very lucky that we had some friends and friends of friends and kind of work acquaintances that had done through, so we're able to reach out to them just to talk about it. But for us, we kind of decided that through was right for us in in how we wanted to build our family, we wanted to have those newborn kind of cuddles, sleepless nights, and we kind of wanted that biological connection um with our children. So that's how we we thought about uh our path to parenthood. But everyone's path to parenthood, whether you're uh single or in the in a relationship, is very unique and different, but for us how we we envisioned um having our children.

SPEAKER_09 5:44

Thank you. And was there anything in particular that you um ended up having to factor in that you into your decision making that you didn't initially um even you didn't expect to have to consider?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

So I think before before you start and you start talking to other intended parents and you might start to engage with a lawyer or an agency, just having those initial conversations, you kind of think about yeah, the clinics, the costs, the timelines. But there's other things that I don't think people necessarily think of right at the beginning, such as um medical care in the the the destination where you do surrogacy, such as the NICU costs, uh what's if you need help private health insurance, um, emergency birth plans, you know, if they're gonna well not that you can plan an emergency, but um just being prepared to have a hospital bag for baby, for surrogate, and for yourself if you need to stay overnight. Um just things that you can't things that you need to be aware of that but sometimes you can't factor in, or we didn't we thought of is like the political changes in the destination, whether there's going to be a new government in the next year or two, whether that is looking more conservative or left-wing, and any immigration changes as well. Things that you is important to factor in that we probably didn't think linger too much on because we just weren't aware of them until we got further down the line, or maybe an intended parent that we were talking to who was ahead in their surrogacy journey had encountered and they kind of given us that hint or tip to to consider. There's always going to be things you can you're never going to be 100% prepared, but I always talk about building your team. You know, you could do a month of research, you could do 12 months of research, and I see this a lot with the intended parents that I work with at varying points of their surrogacy journey. And it's very much what I say, it's about building that team that will get you give you that support throughout, and it's more about building that team rather than the length of research you need to do, um, because surrogacy almost forces you to become uh comfortable with uncertainty because there's so many factors that are uncontrollable.

SPEAKER_09 7:59

Probably have to be well pretty agile, don't you? Because of there's such a uh multi-factorial uh aspects and changes throughout the process and considerations. Um and did you find I mean we'll talk a little bit more about the uh emotion later, but did you find the um journey emotional in ways that you didn't expect um or that surprised you as well?

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yeah, absolutely. There was I would say I'm quite like level-headed, grounded, rational. I'm kind of like a planner organizer, and it it will you'll never be, like I say, um you'll never be prepared for everything because you just can't, it's like human nature, it's biology. Um there's things that you rely a lot on other individuals, so you know, the agency, the lawyers, and so it's very much those kind of silent moments and those things that you don't expect that can be very emotional. You're waiting, you know, you don't know how many embryos you're gonna create, you don't know if that embryo is gonna transfer. So it is it it's uh surprisingly a lot more um emotional than I definitely gave it credit for. I you expect the emotion when your child is born, but through the whole process, which can last months as well. So you're having that kind of like with resilience and patience um definitely called on those skills, those life skills of of uh the path to parenthood.

SPEAKER_09 9:27

Absolutely, because you even if you've got every plan in place, things can change, like as you say, politically, um laws can change, and obviously then you have the human body and nothing's nothing's for certain. So absolutely. Um so in that regard, um, how would you say that our clients can support themselves or kind of put a plan in um a place to support themselves and their families through their journey? What can they do right from the start? I know counselling is obviously um offered and very um you know a very uh strong recommendation for that. Um but what is there any particular kind of therapeutic um counselling that um people going through this journey should uh kind of look to or look to explore right at the beginning? How can clients support themselves?

SPEAKER_01 10:08

So, first of all, I d I don't underestimate how heavy thyrocity can feel. Like through the is you know joyful, but it can be mentally demanding. Like I say, it's it's a marathon, not a sprint. And you know, you have to have a really strong foundation with your partner if you're going through it together. You know, usual kind of open conversations, transparency, talking about how you're feeling, you know, you relying or leaning into close friends, because you sometimes you don't it is a fertility journey, so you don't want to be telling everybody all the time, like you know, what's going on. So I think having you know a small close friend who maybe have gone through their own fertility journey and they can just understand and they get it kind of like straight away what you're kind of going through. I think looking from professional support, I think that's actually another great idea that we didn't do, but I think in hindsight it would have made because I think just talking therapies is just brilliant, and just talking to people just helps, you know, you might not solve a problem in you know, in a 10-minute conversation, but you just feel heard and listened to and you feel that you'll be able to conquer it and you might think of different avenues and whatnot. So I think that is a it's a wonderful thing to consider. Not an essential item, but I think a a really great one to consider uh through kind of therapeutic support and and and there's so many wonderful practitioners now who who are available and with a focus on fertility. So I think that's probably one thing I would uh recommend more is that a practitioner who has more of a fertility executivity.

SPEAKER_09 11:42

Facilities, yeah, yeah. And did you um did you find a network that you built um through the journey with other parents? Have you been able to use those other parents that it if kind of along the way that um are also intended parents, were you able to build um and uh support with them?

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah, so we used I think social media, again, like everything, is a double-edged sword. So I think when you're researching surrogacy, you have to be extremely careful about using social media for recommendations and getting confirmation or doing your due diligence. That is like the other end of that is the the one's sharp side with the sword. But on the other side, once you have done literally just a research and you know who you're going to be working with in terms of trusted service providers, then social media can be really helpful for building that support network again for people who are going through the same journey as you, who understand it. And so we ended up we we were not like massive on social media working like that day and age where we're we're uh probably have 500 friends or something on Instagram and things like that. Uh and so we used it just for to to be inquisitive about the parenting style and skills rather than using it to uh find credible service providers. So that was something that we've really built, and we've built like we've made friends, we've made and and they've got children either born in the same city as us or the same country, or they live where we live um in the UK, and just building that sense of community is really wonderful, knowing that oh, as our children get older, you're gonna, oh, how did you get on with the first day of school? Or you know, how did you uh address like how did you talk about Santa? You know, things like that, which is wonderful because they're the same age and they have the same family uh makeup, so they're gonna be born by a surrogacy, um, and for us born into a household of two dads.

SPEAKER_09 13:49

Yeah, yeah, that's lovely, isn't it? So there'll be some huge relevance there for them to enjoy. That's brilliant. Um, in terms of um talking about kind of destination and how you picked uh where you went and what decisions you made, um surrogacy is banned in a lot of countries, which immediately rules them out, including several European countries, which still blows my mind um somewhat. Um so from my perspective, it's really important to check the current laws. Um obviously some countries are very restrictive in the surrogacy that they offer. So that could be that they only offer to um sexual couples or single women only, um, and in some of uh couples that uh can prove that they uh have some uh infertility issues, which would normally be the case in in a surrogacy um uh journey anyway. Uh and obviously some countries criminalize um uh uh intended parents of um uh the same sex. So there's a real uh i i you can't just pick your ideal country, can you? Um so I just wanted to know what if you could talk us through the process uh that you went through um or what would be helpful for um uh uh cli uh clients that are uh about to embark on their um their uh journey.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Absolutely, and there's like everything in in life, nothing is perfect, and there's always compromise, and there's not a perfect destination for throughrogacy. Um there's pros and cons, and there's a lot of countries that will have uh stronger pros than cons. But my job as being an independent surrogacy consultant is talking about those cons because you're gonna find those those positives quite easily through kind of like marking marketing strategies. So it's really understanding what are the disadvantages and having that clarity and that understanding and being well informed. So, like you say, for us it was looking at the handful of options around the world and in the UK where you can do surrogacy and what that means from a legal aspect, because you have a the law in the UK, but you also have the law of surrogacy where internationally or abroad where it is very different.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Um and even one law in the UK will be different to one law in the US, in Mexico and Colombia, and etc. So you need to have that understanding of what the law is. So that's the one first thing it was like it will work for you and your exactly is what is the law around surrogacy in that country and what is the law around legal parentage because those are two very different questions. Then it's kind of looking at the ethics, you know. We didn't want, you know, um surrogates or women being exploited, so that was really high on our agenda. It needed to be LGBT friendly because we're two gay um men, and and then other aspects, timelines and costs, you know, through is not cheap. And so and that can range drastically depending on the country that you're looking to do through. So there's so many factors, and and that's where it can get very overwhelming and you're not sure where to start. You feel like you might figure something out, and then you move on to like the legal aspect, and it actually puts you back to square one. So I always advise take the destination first, and then once you're happy, knowing ex everything around that destination, from before you start to how you're getting home with your child, everything in between, like the medical, the legal, emotional support as well, and the ethics around surrogacy in that destination, picking that destination first, and then starting to delve into the agencies, because then the agencies have different programs, different packages, and it's always the details in in the or the devils in the detail.

SPEAKER_09 17:45

So when you Oh sorry, go on.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Sorry, no, I was just gonna finish that off to say, and it wasn't it isn't about choosing the cheapest or the fastest, because a lot of intended parents want you know, uh a kind of a quick journey, and it's kind of meeting the expectation that it is at least 18 months to two years. Yes. And it's about choosing what's right for you and your family, not about what is the the the quickest or the cheapest option.

SPEAKER_09 18:12

Did you consider domestic um surrogacy? You did, okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Absolutely, yeah. And I think it's one of those most beautiful journeys to have in the UK, because it's built on trust, you know, with uh the surrogate and and friendship based. So it's something we we I said we explored all destinations, it wasn't quite like that. We investigated and learned and researched all destinations that you can do surrogate, and we started off in the UK. And just for us, it just unfortunately didn't work out, and we started and we looked abroad and we went internationally.

SPEAKER_09 18:49

And we didn't work out because of the delays, because there's a tends to be a delay in in the when it's domestic or the lack of kind of surrogates, or was it yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

It was yeah, for us it was um trying to find that really special woman and knowing that we wanted more than one child as well. We knew that and we have seen and we had spoken to intended parents, we had seen that actually trying to match with a surrogate is really hard. Um in the UK, and also knowing that we wanted more than one, we thought it would be even harder than to try and find have a second or third child. We have three children ourselves now.

SPEAKER_09 19:30

Okay, thank you. That's so helpful. And what I was going to say, when you started out, because obviously you uh obviously having gone through this journey, that has led you to um uh becoming the surrogacy father um and offering the consultancy service that you do. But when you came to look at your destination and decide um how how did you start to pull that information together? Where did you what was your starting point because you went to the agency later, as I understand it? So was it the case of you having to look and on resources online, or was it uh um through the social media, or how did you through lawyers, how did you get your how did you start off? Because it w it's quite overwhelming. There's a lot of information to consider, a lot of information online, and you've got to be careful, like you say. Um so I just wanted to know how because obviously you've now built some some helpful guides and uh resources to help other parents, but they uh I d what was in place when you started, or what how did you start?

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Uh I guess there was nothing in place formally or that was, you know, from an independent point of view. So it was very much piecing it from other people's journeys and what they did or didn't do and learning from them, um which is which is good, but that's time consuming, that's risky, you know, there's no one that is saying or helping you through your journey of knowing what to do step by step because there's a hundred different steps, and all of those steps can then change in a blink of an eye if you're not careful.

SPEAKER_09 21:01

And one person's experience is different from another's as well, and different level of expectations, different agencies, different lawyers. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

I always give an example like your twin brother or sister, or say twin, your identical twin, could use the same egg donor or sperm domer, could use the same surrogate in the same city with the same agency, you know, but they're still gonna have completely different journeys. So even if you do identical, so when so when you know people say, Oh, where did you go? Our journey is completely different to what your journey is going to be, even if you replicate everything, you know, it's just that's the way it is. Um and so for us, it was very much kind of like piecing it through together. We um have a lot of kind of lawyer friends, so we're quite a suit with laws and order, and being a pharmacist myself, you know, like highly regulated. So we we spoke to a lot of lawyers. Well, we spoke to lawyers in the UK, and when we knew That we were going to go abroad, also independent legal advice in that Starbucks destination, which it which is essential to have that informed decision making. And you know that's coming from you know a regulated professional. Yes. That's just the kind of the legal aspect. The other part was just ourselves trying to pull it together in terms of then what agency we're going to choose. How do we know that the agencies are recruiting surrogates ethically? What it put in place in terms of medical care for the surrogate. And then when the child is born, is that child going to be a citizen of that country? Do we need to get a British passport? Are we do we need to fly with a visa? So all of that then we kind of figured out on our own. And that's why I've kind of tried to wrap it up into the 12-part essential surrogacy guide. So then people can just have that easy foundation roadmap of what you need to think about so nothing is too surprising. There's always going to be surprises along the way.

SPEAKER_09 22:57

But it's a good base to start from. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you. And it just uh kind of moving on uh kind of within destinations. Um obviously Ukraine was a really popular um place to go. Obviously, there's conflict there. Um you know, it was uh it was kind of very well um uh kind of it's an experienced country in in in surrogacy, let's say, and they're very open. Um Mexico is also, I understand, a top spot to go. Um what's the landscape looking like for um uh kind of countries in Europe and the wider world for 2026?

SPEAKER_01 23:29

So new trends. The landscape is definitely shifting. There's something that intended parents really need to understand. There's emerging destinations um in Eastern Europe. So I always say if a destination is new or if something's new, it doesn't always mean it's better. And so I I see these emerging destinations such as Albania, Armenia, and they do have good kind of regulation and legislation in place, but there's also a lot of other aspects to think about if you are going to those destinations. So with Ukraine, yeah, the situation has understandably changed things with the war. Mexico continues to be popular, but again, it has quite a fragmented legal system and it's quite variable depending on the state, clinic, and legal advice. In Mexico, you you it's a must to have very strong legal counsel because there's three different kinds of legal processes that you can decide upon. And so that's really important to work with a trusted, vetted legal professional in Mexico, but also in the UK. I think getting that legal counsel in the UK just gives you an understanding of what the law is in the UK. So, for example, when you come back from said country, you know what the legal situation is in the UK.

SPEAKER_08 24:52

Um hopefully they would have done that before looked into that before they've gone.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Oh well, exactly.

SPEAKER_08 24:58

At an early stage.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

I see so many intended parents can trip up because it can be a lot of pitfalls and costly pitfalls and hugely emotional ones. Where you know, I know an intended parent, not in the UK now, but he's been in South America for 11 months and he's he's bureaucratically stuck there because he can't get back to his home country. So as awful and as tragic as that is, it's it's making sure that you have gone through all kind of like the steps before signing any contract, before paying deposits, and before like rushing into it. But yeah, the landscape is is changing and almost in a blink of an eye, and that's another thing that when we were looking at our destination, we were looking at, like I kind of mentioned earlier, about the political change, and like I was saying, we wanted at least more than one child. So what was the like and it's it's no one has a crystal ball, but what's the likelihood of a government changing the surrogacy mindset? So there might not be laws or regulations, but they have kind of like good practices. So that's another thing to to kind of like think about about going to a destination that is more established, yes, that has experience with intended parents, that has experience with um recruiting surrogates in an ethical manner, look making sure they're looked after, not just through the pregnancy, but post-pregnancy as well. Um so there's lots of and especially within Europe, um surrogacy remains mostly altruistic, but it is legally restricted. Like you were mentioning, there's Spain, France have kind of like banned aspect of international surrogacy and birth recognition. So, how does that then translate to intended parents and what does that mean about getting that child back home to their to their grandparents and to their home comfort?

SPEAKER_09 26:48

Yeah, absolutely. So, are there any hot spots at the moment that you're that you're noticing as a trend for for where people are going?

SPEAKER_01 26:56

So a lot I get a lot of inquiries around Albania and Armenia, and I think again that's around because they're new and emerging, and people have that idea that it might be better. I think there's more heavily marketed um agencies because it looks like a new destination, but there's also certain there is a number of factors to consider when going to those destinations, particularly around um the surrogates have to be non-Armenian and non-Albanian citizens. So then the recruitment of surrogates need has a lot more questions because they're not they can't come from Albania, Almania or Albania, so it's they're gonna have to be coming from outside of those countries. So then you're talking about language barriers, cultural barriers, uh the support network for the surrogate. Yes. So as ever, it's popular doesn't always mean uh ethical and high standards.

SPEAKER_09 27:56

Yeah, okay, thank you. That's so helpful. Um, is there anything that you'd change now about how our legal um system treats intended parents? I'm I would think the answer is probably yes, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Oh, I would love order. Because I think that is it just makes a lot of sense for everybody involved, not just like the intended parents, but the surrogates as well. You know, they're it's clear from the intent that this child is being conceived and created, and and parents are gonna read X and Y and and surrogate A is a surrogate and not an intended parent or mother. And I think that's been done before the birth, before an embryo transfer is all very clear and transparent, and the intent is clearly shown. Um I think what it what I find good about the UK is that you can have two parents of the same sex on the parental order. And so I think that's lovely because then you can obviously all families are shaping up to be and looking different nowadays. So I think that is wonderful to have that ability um in terms of inheritance, tax, legal and medical decision making, um, and just being yeah, having two parents of the same sex on the birth certificate or the parental order. But it it would be nice to have that before the birth, so that's all kind of like neat and tidy. Like similar to that.

SPEAKER_09 29:31

Rather than when you've got a newborn baby in your hands and trying to juggle and then have to deal with all the the legal aspects afterwards. So yeah, that's good. Thank you. Can you did did you have any um problems that arose in your in your three surrogacies? Um was there anything that particularly stood out in your mind that was a a real issue or barrier that you had to overcome? I mean most surrogacies are smooth smooth going. So we've got this we've raised some red flags, but you know, it is a positive journey for for uh really most people going through it. There obviously stresses and strains and roller coaster kind of all the way through a little bit, but um it you know, most of the stories have positive outcomes.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

But um, you know, if there's anything that you would and that's the thing, you like anything, there's clickbait journalism. So you're always going to read and hear about slightly exaggerated. And even I did that with an example with the the the gentleman who's been stuck abroad, and that wasn't in Europe. Um and so there's always that yeah, clickbait journalism where you get uh you read more negative stories, but all in all, uh being prepared and you will have a smoother ride. You know, it's not going to be completely smooth or stress-free because it is a fertility journey.

SPEAKER_09 30:48

And in terms of the support from you obviously used a surrogacy agency, um, and how was uh can you talk about the experience with the with that?

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yeah, so we worked with professionals along the way. Um and I think depending on where you do your journey, I think it is highly advised to work with an experienced agency where they understand the cultural, religious, language aspects. Um and they're and especially if you do an international journey, they're physically on the ground, they're in the city, they know the clinics, they know um the geography, they know the hospitals, you know, they just their boots on the ground. And I think that's what a type of agency that we use. We had their kind of personal numbers, we were informed throughout, they had there were an established uh agency. Um, and so I think for us, we needed that um support in that coordination because you're not there, there is a time difference, there is a language barrier. Um, we have never done, especially on our first journeys, we had never done a journey like this before. So on even though we carried on using an agency for our third child, we at least we knew kind of what to expect.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Um but I still couldn't coordinate the hospital visits, the scans, when the surrogate was going kind of like into hospital for her appointments, if she needed X, Y, and Z, you know, that's still an awful lot of kind of kind of work to manage, and especially if you haven't done it before. So for us, yeah, it's you want to work with organizations, whether that's the clinic, agency, or lawyers who have um that personalized care and who have that well-established uh reputation of being um reputable.

SPEAKER_09 32:42

Yeah, good, perfect. And do uh in terms of your uh experience of um the legal aspect of becoming a father through surrogacy, can you comment on that? Do you think it's essential to take legal advice in your home country and and in the destination country? You've you've you've you've mentioned um uh that briefly, um, but it just kind of explore that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

And I think that's where intended parents don't think of as well. You need two sets of lawyers, and I always think it's essential in both countries. So you need legal advice in your home country and in the the destination where you're doing styrogasy. Like I was saying, like the laws are different in both. And so skipping, and this is where I think intended parents can tie themselves up in knots, especially at the end of their journey or or nearing the birth. Because skipping legal advice I think is one of the biggest risks I see pe intended parents take because they leave that to one side or they might want to, you know, save some money. And don't get me wrong, psychologically is expensive. Um, but that is probably the biggest part where I see their intended parents getting wrapped up and getting into trouble because they weren't familiar with the laws and the change in laws and immigration and how you're going to get your child back. Because I think when you talk to agencies, they will talk up until the birth of what they're going to do, but not the the bit post-birth and what actually happens there. And that can be obviously the most stressful part because you've got a newborn child, you might not be, even if you do a domestic journey, you might not be in the city or the county that you're from. Um, and so you don't have that you know innate um support network. So having that clarity of what you need to do from a lawyer, whether that's parentage court orders, if that's applying for push passports or visas, at least you have that information and also the documentations that you need and requires. To carry a baby, yes.

SPEAKER_09 34:43

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so it's not just a family um surrogacy lawyer um in your local country, but it's obviously the international um the country of uh destination as well, but also the immigration lawyer as well. Um is most often needed to ensure that everything goes smoothly and the baby comes home uh without delay to um uh to to the UK. Um in terms of any red flags, any it doesn't have to be about not not necessarily about the law, but in terms of any red flags of absolute no-notes for you that you would think it'd be helpful to highlight to um intended parents so they're aware of these right from the start of their journey. Can you think of anything that's a ri that your biggest red flag that might help them?

SPEAKER_01 35:25

So I think I'll give like yeah, a couple. So I think, or a few. So agencies that won't let you speak directly to the surrogate, I think that is a big red flag. I think you have to have direct contact with your surrogate, of course. Like she's this wonderful lady who is doing an amazing gift for you and very generous. So I think you have to have that dialogue and that communication with the surrogate. Um I think anyone who's responding almost too quickly, uh pressurizing you to make a decision, to sign a contract, to pay a deposit, you know. I think in any aspect, if even if you're buying a car, you you if you're feeling pressurized, then again you need to pause and stop. Um and I think that is that is a red flag. Um being told, you know, being quoted, oh everybody does think it like this, or don't worry about that. You know, you want to be informed, you want to make sure that the service providers that you're using are legitimate and they're able to, if there a problem does arise, or if there's a query that needs resolving, that they're that you have that confidence right at the beginning that they will be able to help you. Um don't I guess there's you know, like anything in life, if it sounds good too good to be true, then you probably need to do a lot more research or find more of a vetted, trusted source that is impartial. Um and I guess from a you know, a clinic point of view, if they're not willing to offer kind of some sort of statistics or medical, full medical report, um, you've all you've got your gut, so I think you can rely, especially if because there's so much information out there, and a lot of it can be misinformation, especially with social media now and sales pitch and marketing strategies. I think those kind of using your gut to say, oh, it just doesn't feel right, then it probably isn't right, and going to a source that you feel a lot more comfortable with.

SPEAKER_09 37:21

Good. That's such um helpful guidance there. When you talk about stats, are you um talking about the stats, for example, that it's a uh a proven successful um surrogate from before, or more about that they've had um the stats of how many um surrogates they've perhaps dealt with in um a particular destination or in uh in circumstances of your own family situation?

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Is it all of that that you're referring to or probably more uh wider than that and broader, or just like facility stats, so like number of like would they transfer one or two embryos? For me, I think if there's an agency or clinic that is transferring two embryos, I think again that is I wouldn't say it's a red flag, but it's probably an amber flag, you know, and there's discussions that people can have about their choice of you know, having double embryo transfers transfers versus two, I think uh versus one, sorry. I think from a professional point of view, I think uh an ethical, sensible, reasonable agency and fertility clinic will only offer single embryo transfers because it means that it's safer for the surrogate and the baby and less complications. Um and so in terms of the fertility clinic its stats, it's just that they're open around the success rates, their um, I don't want to say failure rates, but just what their maybe medical processes are, just so they're kind of open and transparent about how they operate and and what information can be public and things that you can research and find out. So you so you can see that to are they regulated, who are they regulated by, is that an official governing body that that more of the higher brow of things?

SPEAKER_09 39:06

Yeah, that's brilliant. Thank you. Um and I just wanted to really kind of finish off where with going back to kind of the story of your children's birth. Um so certainly from the court's perspective, um, in in England and Wales, it's important that they uh that children uh know where they come from, um, they understand their own journey and how wanted and how special they are. Um Have you discussed um your children's journey with them? Um the story of the conception and their birth, um, how important do you feel that it is um with a sufficient guidance to support you with this? Can you talk about that a little?

SPEAKER_01 39:41

So yeah, we we talk about it like I say all the time, as often as as we can with a busy life of three young children. But we have photos of the surrogates on our fridge. They know that you know Tomas was in Auntie Diana's tummy sleeping, they know where they were born in South America, they they they're bilingual in Spanish. So for us, it's very we've got kind of like books around sorrogity and two dads, and so we're very open and proud of their conception and and that they were born via Sarrogracy. Um and I think like anything, it's always best to be as open and as transparent um using age-appropriate language as early as possible. So they just grow up knowing, yeah, I have two dads and my surrogate was Judith, you know. So you're not it's it's something that's they're like, yeah, that's that's how how life is and it's like neutralising it. And I think we're we're very proud of their story, and we want them to uh share and learn that they're proud of their their story as well. So we were on holidays last summer, and it was our older son who would have been just under three, he was, and he was telling the whole plane he's got like two dads, and then there was another uh boy who had two dads as well, and he was almost out how he had two dads because he put unique having two dads. So that sort of like normalization. Um we've talked through that you know, some some children have a mummy and a daddy, some have a daddy and a daddy, and some have a mummy and a mummy, and some might only have a dad or a mum. So again, it's just learning, especially when they're going into kind of I guess like childcare settings of crushes and nurseries and schools, and they're gonna see different family types, and so they have an awareness.

SPEAKER_09 41:33

Yes, absolutely, and the confidence to to and the confidence to be proud of their family um as well.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Um I'm sure when they get teenagers, they're gonna be like shouting and and causing chaos. But it's it's no surprises where they're they've come from sort of thing. We're gonna get those hormones and whatnot, but it it's not we're we're telling them uh as early as possible, um like I say, in an appropriate language for kids. So when they are growing up, it isn't.

SPEAKER_09 42:07

They know, it's accepted and then they're confident about it, which is so important. And also from the court's perspectives as well, it it forms part of a very important part of the witness statement. The court wants to know um how the whether the child, you know, what they want to know that the child is going to be told and how they're going to be told. Um and that's an important factor. And that they, you know, they part of it, you know, it's it's going out without any frame around it. It's um it's got to be very much normalized and supported and um uh an exciting part of how special they are to have arrived by this journey. Um that's brilliant. Um I think that probably brings it to that for today. Um, thank you very much for your input. Really helpful guidance for any kind of parents out there considering um going on this embarking on this privacy journey. And I think it's really just make sure that you seek early advice for both the um not only the legal advice at an early stage, but also the emotional and practical support as early as possible and that's early going to help uh parents kind of plan ahead and be prepared for the journey that uh that that they're going to go into build their families.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Absolutely. That was a pleasure. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_09 43:17

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_06 43:24

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