Alcohol: Do You Want to Say No? (Busy Brains, Booze & Taking Back Control)

Ben welcomes his first guest James Hansen, addictions counsellor, ADHD life coach and founder of the Escape the Chaos programme: 

https://www.escape-the-chaos.co.uk/

In a powerfully honest and raw episode, Ben and James discuss the complexities of alcohol consumption, from the role it plays, to societal expectations, the damage to our mental health, and the importance of connection. 

James shares his personal journey with alcohol, the impact of his family background, and how he navigates social situations without drinking. 

They emphasise the need for self-awareness, planning, and support in making healthier choices regarding alcohol. The episode provides practical advice and support in navigating our lives with or without alcohol.

busybrain, somethingforthebusybrain, goodtothinkdifferently, boundaries, mentalhealth, selfawareness, alcohol, sobriety, connection, adhd, adhdcoach, lifecoach, bencook, addiction, support, ADHD, recovery

Takeaways

Connection with others is crucial for mental health.
Alcohol can serve as a depressant, impacting mood.
Planning ahead can help manage alcohol consumption.
It's important to set healthy boundaries around drinking.
Self-awareness plays a key role in making choices about alcohol.
The societal expectation to drink can create pressure.
Support from friends can help in social situations.
Understanding personal triggers is essential for managing alcohol use.
Creating a life worth living involves developing healthy habits.
The opposite of addiction is connection, not sobriety.


Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
04:54 James Hansen's Journey with Alcohol
10:02 The Impact of Family and Environment on Alcohol Use
15:01 Understanding Alcohol's Role in Mental Health
19:49 Navigating Social Situations and Alcohol Consumption
25:03 Strategies for Healthy Boundaries and Support
29:58 The Importance of Connection Over Alcohol
34:56 Planning Ahead for Alcohol-Free Experiences
40:00 Final Thoughts and Encouragement for Listeners

Transcript

Ben (00:04)
Good morning and welcome to episode three of Never mind the buzzcock, so I was going to say that. Welcome to episode three of something for the busy brain. This morning I've got my first gift, my first gift, my first guest, James Hansen.

James Hansen (00:13)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

Ben (00:29)
We've had a bit of a giggle because the podcast software wasn't working straight away. ⁓ had so we started about half an hour late. I thought everything was going to be fine. ⁓ road tested this yesterday with my 13 year old boy. ⁓ my 11 year old daughter, Molly could not have been any less interested in helping daddy ahead of today. So let's, let's blame the technical issues. had first thing on Molly, shall we?

James Hansen (00:57)
Yeah.

Ben (00:59)
So my first guest on the podcast, James, has actually become one of my very closest friends. ⁓ I would actually like to take the opportunity to get James to introduce himself.

James Hansen (01:15)
you Ben, know together we can right, is certainly a good example of this morning and this of many occasions this year actually you know where you know we've been there to support

Ben (01:24)
it certainly is.

James Hansen (01:33)
connect you know and become friends. ⁓ I'm as you mentioned I'm James I mean it says my name there doesn't it actually. I'm James Hansen I'm a specialist.

Ben (01:43)
It does, but some people will

be just in audio, so they might not see James Henson.

James Hansen (01:50)
No one likes a clever soul. ⁓ Okay, so yeah, for those listening to the recording today on audio, I'm James Hansen. I'm a specialist addictions counselor and also an ADHD life coach and the owner of Escape the Chaos program. Wonderful to join you this morning, ⁓

Ben (01:53)
Hahaha

and wonderful to have you here. Now we've got the technical bit out of the way. I'd just like to start by saying who James, who you are to me. So we met three years ago now at ADHD conference in Liverpool.

James Hansen (02:33)
Mmm.

Ben (02:39)
James has become a close friend. We try and speak to each other every week when we're in good habits. Occasionally I let James speak on the calls as well.

James Hansen (02:52)
Fucked off. ⁓

Ben (02:58)
The

James Hansen (02:59)
Brilliant.

Ben (03:01)
reason why my relationship with you is so special, mate, is...

I think we can relate to each other, the struggles, the busy brain. We use that time together to decompress from some of the shit that's been going on in our own heads. As a fellow coach, it's critical for me to have that confidential space where I can offload and share things with you.

And I know that works in return. But I've also been the listener and the spectator when you've been speaking at conferences and events. And I have to say that you are someone I completely admire. And I'm very lucky to have you ⁓ as a friend.

And I know one of the things you said when you first started talking was about that support for each other. And I think all those things that you represent for me are around the word support. And I know that works both ways. But I think really interestingly is despite your area of expertise, we've never actually spoken about

James Hansen (04:15)
you

Ben (04:37)
alcohol, like fully. And I personally don't think that's right because I don't always have the healthiest relationship with alcohol. Quite happy to say that. But I think it would be really, really interesting to hear a little bit about your backstory and your journey that involves alcohol, just to give people a, you know,

James Hansen (04:54)
Ahem.

Ben (05:05)
a flavor for where you were at.

James Hansen (05:08)
Yeah, beautiful. Thank you for your kind words as well, Ben. It means a lot, And yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure connecting with you, and sustaining that relationship as friendship, as friends, and that additional support ⁓ for each other. ⁓ It goes a long way, doesn't it? It bloody really does. You know, when we're struggling, anyone struggling with poor mental health or mental illness, you know.

Ben (05:19)
Mmm. Yep.

Yep.

James Hansen (05:37)
that connection with others is so important. It's very powerful actually turning the meat upside down to we. Relationship with alcohol, yeah, it's a good question and what a perfect time to discuss it. Just for those that are listening or watching, isn't, you know, there's been no questions that have fired out, you know, there's no prepping this, what we're discussing, so it's coming straight from the heart, hopefully and not the head, maybe a little bit from the head.

Ben (06:04)
Yeah, it's real

and raw. It's the only way we roll, mate.

James Hansen (06:07)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

So I've got, you know, I have, as you know, you know, I've got quite a bit of experience with addiction, addiction, behaviors, unhealthy, habitual behaviors. And if I look at my personal, my personal experience with alcohol, it's, it's, it's varied in a few different ways. So my relationship with alcohol from myself, but also my relationship with alcohol in

certain environments growing up. So what I mean by that is, know, my father, know, ⁓ mum and dad divorced when I was very young. My father's and, you know, big drinking culture, you know, and, you know, I didn't really have a relationship with my father growing up. He was never there really for me and my older sister.

And when he did decide to sort of turn up and try to do what, you know, I guess an expectation of a father is, he was unable to do that. He was unable to meet that expectation. And I absolutely, you know, I absolutely get it now. You know, that doesn't make it okay though. I want to say that. It doesn't make it okay for someone not to be there for their children. Because that was really important for me and my older sister. And that really had a massive impact on us.

and that was a result of him having an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. So eventually he started turning up, but, lo and behold, the place where he felt more comfortable, where my mum used to drop me and my sister off, strangely enough, was at a pub.

My mum was a manager of a pub in East London. There was almost like an expectation that to celebrate, to have a good time on one hand would be to drink alcohol, to enhance the experience. Even though alcohol is a depressant, it's actually the environment that is the stimulant and the people that you're celebrating with. That's the stimulant. That's the real good feel factor for me. But...

Ben (08:12)
Mmm. Yep.

I think just interjecting briefly, I think that's really critical in people understanding things, that it's the environment that's the stimulant. So thank you for saying that.

James Hansen (08:22)
I had it.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

And then you've got, know, so on one side I've got that where society's belief or expectation is that alcohol use in certain environments goes along with having a good time, you know. ⁓ And then on one hand, on the other hand, I have obviously the relationship with my father that has more of a relationship with alcohol than me and my sister. So every time we see out that.

Ben (09:01)
Hmm.

James Hansen (09:03)
he would have a kind of tenants or he would be in the pub, you know, and I remember being a young guy in a young, a young age, you know, looking at him at the bar, you know, drinking ⁓ a pint and a wee, a wee cherry vodka. Yeah. And, and seeing him at the bar, know, looking at my dad and, and, and seeing him smiling and he was a popular guy, you know, back in the day, in the end alcohol killed him.

Ben (09:19)
Ha ha.

James Hansen (09:29)
let's have it right, know, eight years ago it took his life, you know, ⁓ and that's the difference between, you know, someone that can drink and stop one, two, three in and someone that can't stop. They have one, it sets off a phenomenon, craving, an urge of wanting to continue like my father, like my experience with alcohol too, you know, and, and ⁓

Ben (09:29)
Okay, yeah.

James Hansen (09:56)
you know, seeing my dad up there and seeing him laughing with friends and things like that. And I associated that with the alcohol. And I thought, you know, in a weird way, I want to be like my dad, even though he wasn't there really. He tried his best, you know, with what he could, what he was shown, I guess. But that doesn't make it all right. You know, and I want to make that important because, you know, it's almost like, you know, we get, you know, in the recovery sector, it's like, you know, forgiveness and...

Ben (10:02)
Okay, yep.

Hmm. Yeah.

James Hansen (10:26)
acceptance and compassion and that's okay, that's all good and well but when you've been brought up where your father's just not been there, that's gonna have massive impact on anyone, any child. yeah, a bit of both there, I can sort of gauge a bit of both of them areas. But anyway, so my intention was never to be like my dad, which was an alcoholic. I thought, because there was times I'd sleep with him and...

Ben (10:49)
Mmm.

James Hansen (10:54)
⁓ I'd sleep at his house where he had us, right? And I can remember seeing a can of tenants next to him in bed. And now I understand that at some point he crossed the line and he'd become dependent. So what I mean by that is he got to the point where he believed in his mind and physically.

Ben (10:58)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

James Hansen (11:21)
for physical reasons. If he stopped drinking, he was going to go through states of withdrawal. So he had to maintain a certain level of alcohol use. So that was my father. But I started using substances, including alcohol from the age of 11 to 20. I really tried my best to control staying away from the alcohol as much as possible because I didn't want to turn out to be like my dad. In fact, you know, my father ended up in a rehab

Ben (11:34)
Mmm.

James Hansen (11:52)
⁓ In fact, you know, before me, before me. And, you know, I guess the consequences outweighed what I believe the pleasure was with the alcohol. I soon got to the point where I couldn't have one of anything, not just alcohol, but, you know, let's stay on track of, you know, the alcohol lens for a moment. So, you know, alcohol and drugs went hand in hand for me.

Ben (12:05)
Yep.

Hmm.

James Hansen (12:21)
You know, sometimes I did drink alcohol on its own, but quite often it was, you know, it got in the way of my inhibitions when I started drinking alcohol. And soon enough I was ended up, you know, on the phone looking for other things like cocaine or cannabis or other stuff. ⁓ So my drug of choice quite often was more. Whatever it is, I want more of it. And if it meant it was that particular thing that I was doing at that time, including alcohol.

Ben (12:30)
Mmm.

Yeah.

James Hansen (12:51)
it was always a drink to black out. And what that means for me, and what I understand it to mean is that if you can't remember the night after, when you wake up in the morning and you can't remember that night before, you've blacked out. You've experienced blackout. And I thought in my brain, ⁓ is that that was a successful night. ⁓

Ben (12:53)
Hmm.

James Hansen (13:20)
I mean, nuts, isn't it? You God, yeah, it's like, that must have been a great, that must have been a great night. I can't remember anything. I woke up with no money, you know, who am I upset? What's gone on? You know, and I suddenly realized, you know, after being in recovery.

Ben (13:22)
You laugh about not being able to remember it. Did you have a good night? I must have done, I can't remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Hansen (13:40)
you know, over 25 years that that wasn't a healthy way of drinking, you know. You know, and this year will actually be my 26th year of not drinking at Christmas.

Ben (14:01)
How does that make you feel?

James Hansen (14:07)
proud.

Ben (14:08)
Mmm.

James Hansen (14:09)
proud and it makes me feel good you know that I don't associate Christmas no more with alcohol use you know and I get it you know some people do but if you can drink and there are no consequences fair play that wasn't my journey you know and

Ben (14:13)
Mmm.

Yeah.

You know

what? Sorry, you were still talking. It's highly unlike someone with ADHD to interrupt. So yeah, you say your bit. You've probably forgotten now anyway. I'll steam in then.

James Hansen (14:42)
I have. I have. Yeah. I have, yeah.

Ben (14:52)
I... often listen to you.

I'm not going to glorify you too much and big you up too much because that's not us. often, is envy the right word? Yeah, think it is. Let's go with it. I'm often envious of you not having alcohol in your life.

And where that comes from is it's very rare that I wake up after just having had two or three drinks, that the doom isn't there when I wake up. And I'm self-aware enough to know that why I might feel like having a drink. ⁓

And I'm self-aware enough the next day to know that actually that doom, those negative spirals, that shame, that beating myself up, I know that will pass. And I know that's the depressant element of the alcohol working on me.

James Hansen (16:17)
Yeah.

Ben (16:20)
But because that can be so harsh the next day, and I have this conversation with everyone as you will.

What are the stats now? Like one in five people don't drink?

James Hansen (16:33)
Hmm. ⁓

Ben (16:34)
And I think it's very, very normal. I think anyone listening will know that it's far more normal to be talking to friends these days who say, yeah, I just don't drink. And there's no stigma with that. I don't drink. I think everyone can relate to the mental health challenges that alcohol can present. I think I'm...

guilty as guilty as a lot of people who during Covid it became it became a bit of an unwanted comfort blanket but it became it came the ugly friend that I didn't then want to have with me after Covid but but the rot had set in the bad habits were there and and I know I can be going to a night out and there was

There was a night out last week. So I work in serviced offices and we had a night out last week and I'd got the drinking fear. I didn't want to... ⁓

James Hansen (17:49)
Bye.

Ben (17:53)
I didn't want to feel like I needed to have a drink. didn't, you know, I was going to be recording a podcast episodes and working on the edits the following morning. And there was something that I was saying to myself before I was going out. I need to know what message I can take out there. What I can tell people, how I can ⁓ feel okay. Just having, just having two and then going home. And I think.

In Christmas time there is a real societal expectation. ⁓

But I think a lot of the time we put that on ourselves. We really, really put that on ourselves. And then, you know, I find myself in a cycle now where, okay, I didn't have a drink last night, but more often than not, I could have a drink in the evening or a couple of drinks in the evening. You know, tis the season and all that. A couple of drinks in the evening. Maybe don't get.

the best night's sleep because it's alcohol induced. You wake up the next day and then you caffeinate yourself through the day. So you've just got, you're just up and down. And when this time of year it's a hundred miles an hour and everything's all consuming and you've got to cater for everyone, you're going to be running on empty. So when you finally stop, you know, when does your brain and body get to catch up when you're just surviving on booze and caffeine?

James Hansen (19:29)
Yeah.

Ben (19:29)
But

I think talking to you James, know, it's how do we normalise these conversations around...

around alcohol and alcohol consumption.

James Hansen (19:49)
Yeah, well, you know, I do think that we put ourselves under pressure as well, like what you said there, but I do believe that society puts pressure on us to, you know, to justify their drinking, right? We're gonna name it, man, you know? So, ease off. If you want to drink, drink. But please don't encourage others and respect what they're saying and the healthy boundaries they're putting in place when they say they're not drinking.

you know, because some people push, to justify them wanting to drink. Now there's also two different clusters here, and it's important to mention this, because...

I mean, you've heard of the, some people may have heard of the phrase an of a specific type. What that means is if you have one of alcohol, one bottle or anything, you are not able to stop. You lack the control to make that decision. And you don't know how long that's going to happen, but how long that one is going to, what that's going to lead into. Is that going to lead into one day?

Ben (21:00)
Okay.

James Hansen (21:02)
one week or years before you suddenly realize that you lack the control and all of a sudden you become physically dependent. You're unable to stop right so when that person an addict of a specific type stops, abstinence is the only way. There is no days off you know in over 25 years I've been clean and sober there is no days off I cannot afford to have that one right so that's that cluster over here.

Now, if you are a cluster where you can have a couple on occasion and, you know, it goes a bit pizza on, you know, from occasion to occasion, you know, who am I to say that that's not something I'd, you know, I'd recommend it's down to the individual to identify the negative impact that's having on their life when they do that and how consistent that's occurring, you know, because if there's no physical withdrawals, then what for me, either way, you're looking at it, there is unhealthy habitual behaviors.

Ben (21:32)
Mmm.

James Hansen (22:02)
So what that means is, is the tape being played is like the un-normal becomes normal. You know, so it's like, you know, and then that expectation comes in on ourself. Like we go into these environments and we expect that we've got a drink. But, but, but at some point we need to record over the old tape, over the old unhealthy habitual behaviors till eventually the tapes playing a different tune. There was no expectations for me to drink in different environments today. I don't even think about it, you know.

Ben (22:26)
Mm.

James Hansen (22:31)
I have healthy boundaries. When I've had enough, I've had enough. You know, back in the day, I'd be the last one at the party because I felt like I'd missed out or, you know, or like, you know, people would judge me for leaving early. You know what? Fuck it. Fuck, fuck it. Right. It's like, you know, you've got to take care of yourself. Right. You know, when you've had enough, if you're able to, and you're not an addict of that specific type that I mentioned before.

Ben (22:40)
you

James Hansen (23:01)
and you're able to leave when you need to leave, leave. It's okay. Do you know, and sometimes no one really gives a shit. That's how it right. You know, if you just beer, right? If you just disappear without even saying bye, you know, there's like 30, I remember like, you know, even like now, you know, when I'm not drinking, if I'm out with people that are drinking, when I've had enough, I've had enough. And there's like 20, 30 people there. I'm not going around saying bye to everyone. You know, a lot of the people drink, are drinking in their environment, so I'm not drinking. So.

I'll just disappear. know, people are like, what time did you go? They don't know. They don't really care. Right, exactly.

Ben (23:36)
in their own world.

think there's one thing there, well probably a couple of things.

Some people will feel...

they can do that. Some people will feel capable of walking away and just going, I've done my bit. Other people...

will benefit more from having some of that accountability. ⁓ Or maybe someone, you the word we both used earlier is support. And I think, I know I've done it and sometimes we can make things easier for ourselves if we don't always trust ourselves.

James Hansen (24:15)
Mm.

Ben (24:28)
to maybe have that conversation with someone else beforehand and just say, look, I don't want the doom in the morning. Whether you have two or whether you decide to not drink at all, going in there knowing that there's one other person who's got your back and you've said to them, maybe not keep an eye on me.

but you're holding yourself accountable to yourself. If you know that you don't really want the train to run away, sharing that with someone beforehand, I think is good practice. there's always going to be other people that don't want to drink. Always going to be those people who've driven there, ⁓ or those people who just don't drink. So I think there's something to be said for...

James Hansen (25:03)
Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

Ben (25:22)
If you're going into those situations and you are feeling uncomfortable, find that point of support.

because there is going to be someone else that doesn't want to drink as well. So, you you can look out for each other.

James Hansen (25:36)
Yeah, absolutely. And the more you

do that, the easier it gets Ben. The more and more you do that, the easier it gets. That's why, you know, I go out and it doesn't end in my psyche. You know, having a good time and drinking alcohol isn't in hand in hand for me. But going back to what you were saying there, it's a crucial part is that we can plan ahead. You know, if you're, you know, if you don't have a drink during the week or whatever, you go out with friends, we can plan ahead. If you're not.

Ben (25:40)
Yeah, absolutely.

Mm.

Mm. Yeah.

James Hansen (26:04)
It's also about what mood you're in before because if alcohol is a depressant right and you're you've had a busy week You know, you're feeling low in mood. You're not in a good space You know, there's been a lot going on for you and you're going in that notion of drinking alcohol, which is a depressant Guess what it's gonna do, right? So so that is also important to bear in mind if you are in low mood and that is the case then if you're going out Absolutely connect with a friend. So look, this is what's happening with me

Ben (26:13)
Hmm.

Yeah.

James Hansen (26:33)
you know, I'm happy to come out, but you know, I'm not going to drink, you know, cause I don't think it's going to be good for me, you know, put them boundaries in place and put a time for when you want to leave. don't put a time when I'm leaving because I leave when I want to leave when I've had enough. But some people find that difficult. So the other way around that is to put a cap on it. Right. I'm going to leave at 10, 11, you know, make you excuses, get out, you know, it's like, you know, like a salesman, isn't it? You know, when you're walking through town, okay.

I heard this bloke share about get yourself a watch, okay? You don't have to work, okay? Don't have to have a battery in it. You know, if you're walking through town and two salesmen come up to you and they're selling you something, what do you do? You make your excuses and you keep walking, right? Well, in that environment, it's the same. You know, you set your time, you know, right, I'm gonna leave at 10 or 11. If someone's with you, you can go, my God, I'm late. I've got to take an important call. I've got to go.

and then bomb, get yourself out the door or even if it gets too overwhelming, take small gaps, go outside, take some time for yourself, you know.

Ben (27:40)
you

Self-awareness is everything, isn't it? It really is. And I think...

James Hansen (27:45)
Absolutely.

Ben (27:54)
I think there are probably a lot of people that will be listening that...

sit in those two camps, particularly this time of year where you're... and I've sat in both camps, you know, we've got stopped over, we've got dry January. These are times when as a... and they've been a cultural thing that have come in, you know, to try and...

James Hansen (28:05)
Mm.

Mmm.

Ben (28:27)
help people form better habits, stop for a month.

I know.

I have been that person that's gone, okay, I'm going to stop drinking for a bit, or I'm going to challenge myself with not drinking for a month. And then...

And then you sort of reach that point where you're like, do I want to give up completely and have alcohol out of my life? Or do I want to just have a healthier relationship with alcohol? And I can't say which way I'm going to go. But I think it's the fact that you don't need to hit rock bottom to decide something isn't working for you.

And I think the word connection you talked about earlier, but I think it's often thinking about the role that alcohol plays for us. What job is it serving at that point?

And I think understanding...

What else could do that job instead of the alcohol? And maybe if we have a wider menu of options.

think about what might be missing in our lives that we can build in instead of alcohol. And a wise man once said to me, the opposite of addiction is connection. Think that might have been you, James. But that's the thing, it doesn't necessarily mean sobriety.

But...

think there's a very fine line, I think if you lean into the connection and the really deep human connection with people.

rather than the alcohol.

I mean, give people some...

You live a life of sobriety.

Can you tell me and anyone listening how you've lent into that word connection as a result of abstinence?

James Hansen (31:21)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, in ways. the thing is the difference between someone that's drinking alcohol in them environment running out to Christmas and someone that isn't, not myself. You know, I had no option but to stop. Right? If I could take one now and again, I'd still be doing it better. Right? That's the truth. Okay. We are experts of our own world. We know the truth.

Ben (31:21)
What does that look like to you?

Yeah.

James Hansen (31:49)
of what's happening when no one's right? And to what depth we're going to to drink alcohol. Now, the only difference between myself and someone that is drinking in these environments...

It's I'm not drinking, right? So let me just simplify this, right? It's that... this is a gem, this is, right? The only difference between me and someone that's drinking in them environments or around families this year at Christmas time, or anytime for that matter, is the fact that I'm just, I'm not drinking. And the person is. So what I mean by that...

Ben (32:09)
⁓ Say that again, I just coughed.

James Hansen (32:35)
It's that I still experience connection, laughter, love, and I have a fucking good time, man. I'm up there dancing. I'm probably the first person on the dance floor, right? Right? I'm still having a good time.

Ben (32:54)
How do you do that

without alcohol?

James Hansen (32:59)
It's developing patterns, it's developing new healthy habits. know, like, I got to a point where I don't drink anymore. I want more to my life than not drinking. I wanna create a life worth living.

I didn't stop all that stuff to be boring, know, and unstimulating and not have fun. I wanted a life that was away from that expectation, that societal norms. So obviously, you know, through fellowship, you know, you've got mutual aid support groups and things like that. You've got Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, all the other anonymacies there that are able to give you support. But the thing is, again, it's so important.

you know, because there's a lot of people that go through, you know, a maintenance process where, like you say, you know, they'll stop for January for 30 days to have that maintenance, to re-plemish the spirit and then they drink again, But that's not this cluster over here. They can't afford to do that, right? But if that's the cluster, there is a cluster over here that absolutely I work with both clusters, right? Because

Ben (33:55)
Yeah.

Mm-mm.

Alright.

James Hansen (34:15)
It's still trying to change unhealthy habitual behaviors, know, and urges of wanting to do it and developing healthy boundaries, you know. Now, that cluster over here, I would say you have your evidence. You are the expert of your world, not me. Right? So you know the negative impact ongoing that alcohol can be having on your life.

Ben (34:35)
Yep.

James Hansen (34:44)
So what the consequences of drinking versus consequences of not? And you weigh that up. What would be the benefits of short term abstinence or long term abstinence? What are the positive gains? What are the positive gains from continuing to drink short term and long term? And what that is, that's called something, it's called a denial matrix. Okay.

Ben (34:56)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

James Hansen (35:13)
then questions that I've just asked there derive from something called a Denial Matrix. know, also any behavioural change that we're looking to ⁓ implement in our life, you'll find yourself in a place of ambivalence.

Ben (35:33)
Mm.

James Hansen (35:34)
one side of the mind is telling you this isn't a wise move maybe you need to have a break here however the other side so that that has caught that that internal dialogue is called change talk it's looking at the benefits of you know what would life be like without it what would be the positives right and then the other side which is where a lot of people end up trapped in where the unhealthy habitual behaviors lie

which is the opposite of contemplating change is pre contemplating change. It's that internal dialogue that's keeping us stuck time and time again, not just around alcohol, lots of different things like going to the gym, eating healthy. There's lots of other factors that we have this internal dialogue that says, do you know what? Sounds like a great idea, but at the moment I'm not going to change it just, just, just now. Right. That's the only condition I'm going to put on it is I'm not going to change it today. I'll change it tomorrow.

Ben (36:15)
Yeah.

Bye.

James Hansen (36:32)
Next week, next month, we'll look at it next year, you know? It gives us unjustifiable reasons of wanting us to stay in the same old behaviour. The problem is, that avoidance, that heightens. That becomes an unhealthy habitual behaviour. Does that make sense?

Ben (36:40)
Yep.

It does make sense, it does make sense. ⁓ Excuse me. ⁓ Festive coughing fit, bet that sounds lovely. There you go listeners, drink that one in. ⁓ So I think...

this time of year.

There were going to be people sat around with family and friends.

reflecting.

Just thinking of situations like myself. So this is kind of how can you help me and in you helping me. ⁓

Hopefully that will help other people. So we've had Christmas dinner. We're stuffed.

We've had a raucous time at the table. been brilliant. All the family retired to the lounge to decompress.

and

Someone says, should we open another bottle of wine? Or does anyone fancy a port?

I will be in two minds.

and it's sort of, it's that vital pinch point where if I stopped at that point

I'd feel, I feel proud of myself. I would feel genuinely proud of myself. Well done. I'm investing in myself and I'm investing in how I start the next day. However, I could have one or two more.

wake up the following morning, feel like shit. And then I'm in that shame spiral. I'm beating myself up. ⁓ I shouldn't have done that. I'm rubbish. I've got no willpower. I'm getting in my own way. So there's that point, that tipping point. And I think that's probably the point that a lot of people are going to relate to.

It's... You've got... You and you said you've got one in the tank, maybe two in the tank. It's... How can we help ourselves stop at that point when we... when we know in our right minds...

that we probably don't want to another one but we feel that we should have another one. What advice would you give?

James Hansen (39:57)
first thing should is an expectation. ⁓

Ben (40:00)
Mm-hmm.

James Hansen (40:04)
Yeah, I'm not too fond of the word should in any sentence, if I'm being honest. ⁓ It's an expectation, isn't it? You know, on ourself and society.

Ben (40:08)
Yeah, well, I used it because it's an expectation. Exactly.

James Hansen (40:20)
when a train hits us.

Ben (40:23)
When I what, sorry?

James Hansen (40:24)
When a train, a train, a true, train, right? Yeah.

Ben (40:26)
⁓ yeah, you did say train. Right, yeah, carry on. ⁓

James Hansen (40:30)
When a train hits us, it's not warning us of the fifth or sixth cart that does the damage. It's the first cart that hits us that's gonna do the damage. So maybe on that notion there, it's staying away from that first one. If you're not wanting to go down that road and you're not able to control it, because the thing is, I'm not here on a personal or professional level to control someone's drinking.

That's not something I'm able to do, right? I'm not that powerful, right? ⁓ But it's that decision of plan to take forward. Where is this gonna take me? And refusing to pick that first one up. If you're the specific type of person that can drink a couple and stop, obviously, if you're in the other cluster, you stay away from the first one no matter what. You get yourself out of any high risk situations to reduce the risks of doing it.

Ben (41:02)
Yeah.

James Hansen (41:29)
You phone up people and say, look, I'm not drinking. When I come, I'm happy to come. I'm happy to join you guys. You put the boundary in. But you know, we can't expect people to, yeah, we can't expect people to respect that. look, know, my stepfather, I haven't drank for 25 years, right? And now when I go down there, he'll go, do you want to drink, And my mama go, he don't drink. What's the matter with you?

Ben (41:38)
like that, yeah. Forward planning.

James Hansen (41:59)
Right, I don't know. No, no, it's just, know, it just thinks it's all right, you know, it's okay, you know. I can't expect everyone to not ask me, you know, but it's that firm boundary in place. But I'm a cluster of the people over there, right? However, if you're going into Christmas and not wanting to drink or limit that and you're able to limit that, then look at the occasions of where you're going.

Ben (41:59)
Does he do it on purpose?

James Hansen (42:29)
who you're with, connect with one person, plan ahead and if you're not drinking refuse to pick up that first one and you won't get drunk.

Ben (42:34)
Yep.

You know what mate, I think...

I'm really glad.

that we had this conversation this morning because it feels like...

You you know I drink. I've been to venues with you. You we stayed overnight in a hotel, ⁓ not in a bromantic way, but we stayed, we stayed, you have seen me with a towel around my waist, mine, you know, I'll say that much. You're lucky man.

James Hansen (43:22)
I've been about that.

Ben (43:24)
Alright, alright, hang on. It's Christmas time, mate. Be kind, be kind. But I've been... You you invited me to a ⁓ LinkedIn networking party in London. And it was great. And I think just briefly sort of dissecting some of the things that you've said this morning.

James Hansen (43:40)
Mm.

Ben (43:53)
⁓ where we stayed was ⁓ rooms above a pub and we came downstairs to the pub and I, know, I was sensitive enough to say to you in advance, is that going to be a problem for you? Is that going to be okay? You're like, no, no, I'm cool because the only difference was you drink. I don't, this is just the environment and it's the people. But then

James Hansen (44:18)
Yeah.

Ben (44:23)
We went on to that LinkedIn event and that LinkedIn event itself was like a neurodivergent party. was incredible. That party was all about connection and you and I both made some incredible connections there.

But also the number of people I met that night, probably more so than anywhere else.

there was such a high prevalence of people that did not drink.

James Hansen (45:01)
Absolutely.

Ben (45:03)
Right from when you walked in through the door, was you had the non-alcoholic options. The non-alcoholic option was there in front of you at the same time as the alcoholic one. And it was just normal. And it was lovely. And I think whether we're talking neurodivergence or mental health,

I think a lot of us who identify as neurodivergent or people who have a busy brain, we tend to feel our way through life. So we'll probably experience higher highs than other people, but also lower lows. And I think that self-awareness should tell us where we're at in terms of whether we should or shouldn't.

James Hansen (45:55)
Hmm.

Ben (46:05)
given a certain time if we're on a bit of a negative slide.

Maybe don't because your low is gonna be considerably lower than everyone else's.

And then I think sometimes if you're on the up, sometimes you can think, alcohol is just going to enhance this. So what you said there about the forward planning, knowing how you want to be on that, you know, on that night. And if you don't want to drink and you want to be that better version of yourself or more in control of yourself, I think it's just, there's a lot to be said around.

self-awareness and if you feel that you may succumb to peer pressure as you said find that person plan in advance and find that person who you know doesn't drink you know is has chosen sobriety or that person who you know can also support you

James Hansen (47:01)
Mm.

Yeah, absolutely.

Ben (47:16)
I think it's

about that knowing yourself and knowing that I think probably a nice way to, a really nice way to sort of wrap things up this morning is that thing you said about, well, I think, you you know the line and I'll ask you to, I'll ask you to deliver it as the closing point on this morning's podcast.

about the difference between the person who's drinking and...

and the person who isn't.

James Hansen (48:01)
my ADHD brain's gone, watch which line's that. I've got many lines.

Ben (48:04)
⁓ Yeah,

it's alright, was probably my ADHD vagueness. you said the only difference between the first... Yeah, got it. There he is, there he is! ⁓

James Hansen (48:20)
Yeah, yeah, I've got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, connection. ⁓

Yeah, so the only difference between me and someone else is that I'm not drinking. I'm still in some of these environments. And remember, if you're going to an environment where there's alcohol and you're not expecting to drink and you find that really difficult, then maybe it's a decision at this early stage is to not go. You know, because look, if we keep going to barbers, eventually we're going to get our hair cut. Right?

You know, we expect not to. You know, but I'm in these environments, okay, when I'm feeling, I'm feeling okay within myself to be in these environments and make a decision to be in these environments. I still have a bloody good time. fact, I believe I have a better time than I used to have when I was drinking, right? And, you know, I wake up in the morning, you know,

Ben (49:02)
Mmm.

James Hansen (49:20)
I've remembered the night before, I've not upset no one because I know I haven't. ⁓ I haven't blacked out, I've woke up with money. I've woke up, you know, intact, trust me. There's lot of occasions I weren't intact. So the only difference is, yeah, exactly, yeah, if I was lucky, yeah. ⁓

Ben (49:37)
without half a kebab across your face.

James Hansen (49:46)
or woke up somewhere else like, you know. I wake up and I'm safe.

Ben (49:53)
Mmm.

James Hansen (49:54)
I'm safe. ⁓

Ben (49:56)
And

you're safe within your own mind as well. I think I love that. It's, you're waking up in a better place.

James Hansen (50:01)
Hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and if you are gonna, you know, if you are gonna drink this, this, this Christmas, plan ahead, stay safe, you know, and if you're an addict of a specific type and this is your first Christmas, know that you're not on your own, that I'll be there with you. I'm doing the same and it's okay. You know, let's reprogram that, that societal norms to being.

Ben (50:08)
Yeah.

James Hansen (50:36)
the norm that actually to go out to have a frigging good time that don't involve alcohol is absolutely 100 % okay too. And the more and more you do that, the more and more you're gonna build more healthier norms.

Ben (50:52)
that. I love that. And just to close things off here, if anyone, when I go back through the recording from today, if there are any useful links or links to James or myself and people want to pick up the thread of things, I'll make sure that, and I'm speaking on your behalf now, mate, James and I are available.

James Hansen (51:22)
Hmm.

Ben (51:22)
You know,

we want to support, we do what we do because we want to make a difference. So any useful links will be included in the description ⁓ from wherever you listen to your podcast. Now in typical ADHD ⁓ planning fashion, I have a client in a few minutes.

So I guess I'd better go. But you know, that's the raw authenticity of the kind of conversations that we want to have here. know, it's like things don't go according to plan. They really don't.

James Hansen (52:06)
And sometimes they flow as they need to.

Ben (52:10)
Yeah. James, it has been an absolute bloody pleasure and you have yourself a wonderful Christmas. ⁓ I can understand you having your own boundaries and saying no to recording the podcast on Christmas Eve. Well done, mate. Well done. I know it's hard. I know it's hard to say no to me, but ⁓ well done, mate. Well done.

James Hansen (52:40)
Absolute pleasure to join you today, my man.

Ben (52:42)
You're a beautiful man, buddy. Take care, mate. Bye bye.

James Hansen (52:45)
See you later,

bye.