How Morris Kight Helped Build the Modern LGBTQ Rights Movement

This week on Duke’s Download, I’m joined by writer and former TV producer Mary Ann Cherry, author of Morris Kight: Humanist, Liberationist, Fantabulous — a biography that took more than a decade to write and was created with Morris’s personal blessing.

Mary Ann didn’t just research Morris Kight — she knew him. Their ten-year friendship shaped this book, and her reporting took her deep into the untold parts of his life, including multiple trips to Texas to interview his ex-wife after she had a stroke, uncovering the double lives and hidden chapters that history almost lost.

So who was Morris Kight?

Before he became a leader in the Gay Liberation Front in Los Angeles after Stonewall, Morris was a Depression-era Texas kid with a fierce moral compass. As a young man, he helped women in a brothel access medical care — an early sign of the justice-driven activism that would define his life.

From there, we trace how that same instinct led him to:

• Organize underground STD treatment when queer people were denied care
• Build housing networks and bail funds during LAPD entrapment
• Help launch early Los Angeles Pride organizing
• Lead bold boycotts like Coors and Barney’s Beanery
• Use street theater and “fantabulous” tactics to demand visibility

Morris believed activism wasn’t just about protest — it was about people. One-on-one conversations. Coalition building. Working with unlikely allies. Sometimes even working with your enemies.

We talk about what made his strategy different — and why his approach to money, compromise, incremental progress, and resisting purity tests feels incredibly relevant right now.

We also dig into:

• Post‑Stonewall organizing in Los Angeles
• Early gay rights activism before marriage equality
• Coalition building across movements
• The loneliness of long-term activism
• AIDS-era unity and unexpected allies
• Why visibility was revolutionary
• Lessons modern LGBTQ activists can learn from Morris Kight

This conversation is a reminder that the LGBTQ rights movement didn’t happen by accident. It happened because people like Morris Kight were willing to be bold, strategic, and yes — sometimes “fantabulous.”

And maybe most importantly: they were willing to stay in the fight.

Click below to order Morris Kight: Humanist, Liberationist, Fantabulist NOW

https://feralhouse.com/morris-kight/

https://maryanncherrywriter.com/

https://www.morriskight.com/

You can write to us at: Questions@DukesDownload.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to Duke's Download, my new weekly podcast. I'm Duke Basin here, and each week I'll bring you candid, thought-provoking conversations with incredible guests from the worlds of politics and pop culture. Together we'll explore the stories, ideas, and moments that shape our lives and drive change. I'm so glad you're here. Now let's get started. Hey everybody, welcome back to Dukes Download, the podcast where we download real stories, real struggles, and real lessons that shape our world. Today I am beyond excited to welcome Mary Ann Cherry to the show. Mary Ann is an LA-based writer, former network TV producer, and the author of the definitive biography Morris Kite, Humanist, Liberationist, Fantabulist, a story of gay rights and gay wrongs. She didn't just research Morris Kite, she actually befriended the legendary activist in the last decade of his life, got his personal blessing to tell his story, and spent years capturing the unfiltered truth about one of the most colorful, controversial, and consequential figures in the American gay rights movement. From his wild Texas childhood at a brothel to co-founding the LA Gay Liberation Front, building the Gay Community Services Center, and turning street theater into a weapon against oppression, Morris Kite was a true force of nature. Marianne, thank you so much for joining us. We're about to download one hell of a story. Thanks, Duke. It's nice to be here with you. Thank you. You actually became friends with Morris Kite in the final years of his life and wrote this book with his explicit permission. What was it like earning the trust of such a larger-than-life figure? And what surprised you most when you started digging digging in to his personal archives and memories?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Um, well, knowing Morris for the last 10 years of his life, and I was I didn't realize he was a larger-than-life figure, even though I had heard about him before I met him. Uh I moved to Venice, California in the late 70s. And I always heard about this old man who had a house where he would have yard sales, and if you knew, you knew that he also had a doctor in the back room who would treat you for STDs. Because in those nasty old days, if you had a sexually transmitted disease, you were immediately reported to the Board of Health. Often your name uh ended up in the newspaper, your spouse was in was informed, your employer, everybody. I mean, it was just, and so Morris saw that as a public health crisis, which it was. So he and he got doctors. He got legitimate doctors to work off the books and treat people in the back room, and they got the medication somehow. So I'd heard about this man, and then when I had the opportunity to meet him, I thought, oh, wow, this is the guy. This is putting together all the dots. And he was lovely. He was just a regular, lovely older man with a lot of stories to tell. And I became his ride, amongst many other people, who would become the ride to take him to an event or to go shopping. And we would always have lunch at the French market on Santa Monica Boulevard. He loved to go there because he loved to be seen. And there was one thing I knew about Morris is he was not shy. Um, but he also read people really well. He was very astute in how he observed people. And I knew under the hood that there was a story there. There was a bigger story than even he was telling, because there were certain gaps in his history, as he would talk about being in New Mexico during the 50s, and then suddenly he'd leap ahead and he's in Los Angeles in the 60s. So I think what surprised me the most, and and this is true for any of us, anybody who's gonna live 83 years, our lives don't happen l in a linear way. They go up and down. And some of his uh peaks and valleys I think stunned me. And um he was we I figured out that he was married in the 50s, which I knew from him. He had two daughters, um but I never knew the circumstances of how that broke up. And it wasn't really until I went to Texas, I had to travel to Texas three times to meet with his former wife, the lovely Stanley Beth. Now she was very willing and happy to tell me her whole story, uh, except that she'd had a stroke right right before I visited her for the first time. And her mental, her mind was still very acute, but she did not have her um speech abilities were were belabored. So that's why I had to go back two more times to make sure that I got the story correctly. Now, mind you, I'm now now she's 80 years old when I'm talking to her. The last time I saw her, she was 83. And I'm probably ripping open the wound of one of her most painful wounds of her life in her 20s, because she was very naive when she married him. And she came from a uh a moneyed family in New Mexico, and they had connections, and they were very happy to start grooming Morris for a shot at governor of New Mexico.

unknown 5:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

And what struck me was the harshness of the times that they lived through. And by, you know, at that point looking back, I can say, well, he was kind of cold, but it he was cold in a cold world, is really how I view it now. And there was a big scandal, and because he she came from a family with a big name, the scandal was even bigger, and she was so naive. She had no idea, and he had he had been living a double life the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

It's fascinating. Out of curiosity, I can be I could talk about this stuff for hours, but out of curiosity, when did you start writing the book? How long did the process go on where you first start? I know you were friends with him, but then when when you went how long into the friendship or the did you start working on a book and meeting his ex-wife?

SPEAKER_01 6:17

And I was first offered to do an oral history with him. So this was came about in like maybe September, October of um oh uh 2002, and I said, no, I don't want to, um, because he'll he will turn it into a a 200-page press release. He's that that's where Morris was at. And so the day before he died, he called me and we talked about me doing a legitimate biography of him, and he talked about some of the papers that were lost and where some of them that was sent to UCLA and one archives at USC. And he told me about papers that he had sent to a nascent archive back geese and he never heard from them again. Yeah, I'm so sorry, Mary Ann. I said, don't worry about it, Morris. I did end up finding those papers. Um, but in that conversation, that last conversation with him, he had no idea how far I was going to dive. I didn't know either myself at that time. I knew I had to go to New Mexico, which was my first stop. So he passed away, I think, in uh January of 03. I was in New Mexico probably in May or June. And uh so I knew when I got there I had some dirt under my fingernails digging around. And I knew I had to meet Stan Lebeth. It just was the whole that whole story wasn't gonna make sense to me. His daughter, his youngest daughter, Carol, uh was very supportive. She really wanted to see this. She she loved her father, even though, you know, looking back, he abandoned that family, probably out of need, but he had to walk away. Um so I then it took me another couple of years. It took me over ten years to finish it because I would do a whole bunch of writing, then I'd have to step away and do some of my own work, and then I'd do some more. And then in that time, my mother was passing away. So there was a lot of things going on. And um also I wanted to make sure that I dotted all the I's and crossed all the T's because I know this community and they're gonna, and I was told they're gonna go over this with a fine-toothed comb, Mary. You better know your stuff. So I was, you know, I was prepared for my finals.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

No, I mean, it is such an unbelievably not just in terms of how I mean he lived to a, even though he passed away now, what, 23 years ago, he he lived till a quite advanced age. I mean, he had a very full, very, you know, prolonged life. Um, but uh, you know, in terms of figuring out like really what was at the core of this man, I wanted to bring up the fact that, you know, he began his life in the 1930s in a Texas brothel where as a teenager, he secretly helped the women there get medical care and escape violence in the 1930s. Uh so we already had from a young age a very strong sense of like moral righteousness. And um, where do you think those early experiences, or how do you think they forged the fearless and justice-obsessed activist that he became?

SPEAKER_01 9:18

I think um Morris was a voracious reader. He always was to, you know, for his entire life. But growing up in this small town in Texas, he his access, he you there's only so many times you can read um Rebecca of of Sunnybrook Farm. And so he started sending away to the univers when one of the libraries in Chicago he got a hold of, and they started sending him material. And he'd have to write a book report and send it back, and then they would send him more books and comments on his previous book report. And I think he was mostly self-educated. Of course, he did, you know, end up going to the uh uh Texas Christian University and then later Austin, the University of Austin. But Morris is from a very young life. Now, this is where Morris and I really had in common. He lost, his father died when he was seven. Mine died when I was ten. So we could compare those notes. And his mother was absolutely horrified. She was frozen when when he died, when her husband died. And that's really where her attentions were, was were on her husband. His older sister and his older brother soon left home. So it was Morris and his mother fending for themselves through the depression. And she was a hustler. When she emerged from her grief, she was a full-on hustler, um, bootlegger, and she ran a little brothel. They they bought a motel in the um, I guess they call it the red light district out of Fort Worth. And he would Mark uh Morris helped around the grounds, and he also would sometimes help in the kitchen if if need be. And that's where he got to know these young women who were prostitutes. And he got a car, he was like 14, 15 years old, and he was driving an old jalopi. He found out a better place in, I think it was Tennessee, and he would drive them to Tennessee to be treated and then bring them back. Now, when Morris's telling of the story, he never mentions his mother being the the madam of these women. I got that from his wife, from his former wife and his daughter, because they knew more of his family. So it was it like they the two of them were really uh a little bit like Paper Moon, that movie with uh Ryan O'Neill. They look like Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Mm-hmm. No, absolutely. I can it's it's very cinematic. I mean, I can I can totally I mean, hopefully, I mean, I know the reason we connected was because there's going to be a documentary about Morris, which I was honored to participate in. And I know it's it's the genesis of that was your book, and um, and uh, and so I'm very excited to see it on the screen. And who knows, maybe it'll even turn into a movie at some point. Exactly. The story is there, the story is yes. I mean, talking the no no one exemplifies larger than life, uh, the more the morris. I mean, for real. The guy was was unbelievable. I mean, speaking of like jumping, because there is so much we could talk about in terms of his life, but you know, 1969, which was really, you know, the moment in history where both on the East and West Coast, the gay rights movement really converged on both coasts in LA in New York City. And he helped launch the LA chapter of the Gay Liberation Front here in LA and later co-founded the Gay Community Services Center, which we now know of today as the LA LGBT Center, which is, I think the LA LGBT Center might be the largest gay nonprofit in the world, I think. Maybe certainly in America, but but I think it might even be in the world. Um, I mean, that in its in and of itself is an unbelievable achievement and an unbelievable tool, unbelievable and an unbelievable legacy. Um I wanted to ask you in terms of, I mean, there's so much that he did, but uh what were some of the most bold and most theatrical tactics that Morris used that actually moved the needle on gay rights in LA in a city that was still deeply hostile back in the 1960s?

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Well, um going back to the center for a minute, which I think it it definitely was the first of its kind, a a service center, a community services center by and for gay people. Because you couldn't get any psychiatrist to come in and treat a gay person holistically. Um so they would have peer counseling. But that started even before there was a sign that said Gay Community Services Center. I think one of the bolder things that Mars did, I talked about the backroom STD treatment. He also had an underground bail fund. He would put his phone number on walls and bars and on the prison walls if you need help, if you need counseling, because he knew that the only way to build a community was one individual at a time. And he was up against the Los Angeles Police Department that also knew the way to destroy a community was one individual at a time. So the arrests for entrapment and uh solicitation were just off the roof off the charts. And he had attorneys who would help you get out of those those charges. He also had ways uh to find you employment. So one of his bolder tactics, and I know people like to do a broader sweep saying we'll just bring all these people together and have them do it, Morris was one-on-one, one person at a time, and then you take what you learn and you bring it to the next person. And he he had a uh collective in the house that he lived on in on 4th Street, and then later on McCadden Place in Hollywood, and nobody slept outside. Everybody had a place to sleep if you knew Morris Kite. So that was, I think that was definitely one of his bolder moves. Now he was not an above-ground gay rights activist until 1969 when Stonewall happened. So the post-stonewall movement, as we call it, was the opening door for Morris. Prior to that, he was very well known and he and he laid a lot of groundwork in the anti-war movement. He founded what was known as the Dow Action Committee, which was the first successful corporate boycott in America. And it boycotted the Dow Chemical Company, really just one product, which was brilliant, rather than trying to say, don't buy any Dow products. No, they just focused on their most successful product, saran wrap, because that's what was funding uh the creation of napalm to be used in Vietnam. It was enormously successful to the degree that President Nixon then ordered a white paper on how did how did this happen, why is it so successful, and how we how can we prevent this from happening now? And it became known as the uh Lewis Powell Doctrine. You can still find it online. And it is really the blueprint for what we're living through today. They've they've laid the groundwork, the work was done, and now we have this. Um in terms of it, but as far as the gay rights, again, going back to his individual movement, he started the Gay Liberation Front, co-founded it, I should say, with uh Don Kilhefner and a few other people. And he they took a vote. What, you know, amongst all the people that were there, what's your first focus? And they almost unanimously voted was to take down the faggot stay out sign from the Barney's Beanery in in West Hollywood. And that turned into a, I think, two-month uh boycott. They did a sit-in. It was a lot of fun. It it looks like a lot of fun anyway. And Morris, for the rest of his life, he had that sign hanging over his his sofa like a like a trophy prize. Um so there was he and he also he had a lot of isms. And he would tell people, don't just do something, stand there. And he wanted you to own your place in the world as a gay person. And he knew walking down the street holding hands, that was that was a sign of revolution. And he also, when he first came to California and he met the uh Harry Hay and the Matachine Society. Now those guys were still meeting behind drawn curtains and locked doors and talking about gay marriage. And he said, This is silly. You you can't even walk down the street, you're not gonna get married. So he timed it. He he knew the timing, he was a great strategist. And I think that's what he contributed to the gay movement, not just on the West Coast, but on the East Coast, on across the board. Because he he definitely was in daily communication with East Coast activists.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Wow. No, I mean, no, without a doubt, his his effect and his uh impact was made around the country. Um but uh, you know, I think it's I thought it was interesting and and amusing uh that the book calls him a humanist, liberationist, and a fantabulist. Um I mean, break those down for us. Uh how did those three sides of his personality clash? And I mean they fueled each other too, and ultimately made him such an effective activist and organizer.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Well, he was a humanist for sure from through and through. He couldn't identify with, I mean, he would show up for, you know, Troy Perry with MCC Church invited him in in time. He was always very respectful and showed up. But Morris was a humanist. He he took the human, the holistic side of the human, and that and that's where he um I don't want to say he prayed because he didn't really pray, but that but that's what he believed in, is in the is in the betterment of the human. Um a liberationist, I think we have a whole generation, took two generations of people to speak to his how how he liberated people. Um and then there is the fantabulist, and that goes into the people who liked Morris absolutely loved him. And the people who didn't like Morris abhorred him. I mean, I just I mean, I would sometimes come across somebody and I'd be like, whoa, you gotta calm down. Because he would barrel over things. And and that, and so part of the fantabulous is there was always a little bit of bull bullshit in his spiel, but it was also he's also building it up, make making it as fantastic as possible to get you excited.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

I mean, it's true. I mean, okay, I'm not making a comparison between the two at all. But on the other side of the aisle, or the other you might say that we've seen what being a fantabulist, you know, in a sense, granted, with very different uh goals and very different, but you know, being, I think maybe, but maybe without referencing Donald Trump. I'll use the example of, for instance, other gay activists like Larry Kramer, who, you know, I remember reading about him and reading that, you know, a lot of some of the things he said were not necessarily always true. Or if even if they were to lie, they were maybe an exaggeration, or he expressed them in an over-the-top way to either garner attention for the cause or to make it to build a case, you know, for there was always an underlying uh principle, of course, and a pr and an underlying uh motivation for the for good. But um I do think that that also is a, as we've learned, for better or for worse, but you know, in terms of Morris, we learn we being a fantabulist and being a good showman and knowing how to put on a good show, in a way, is an important part of building a political movement. And I think uh I think our side of the aisle, you know, or our you know, whether it be the gay rights movement or other civil rights movements, that's an important lesson that I think we we uh sometimes we need to remember that for better or worse, theatrics and knowing how to garner and galvanize uh people and attention is an important uh component.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yes, sales, saleshift really important. And you gotta sell people their own liberation. He saw that. And I I see it in a lot of that I did, you know, way back. Um the older gay people, they were they felt safe in their closets. They they they knew what was in there, they knew what to expect. And so when Morris was like throwing the closet doors open with the first gay pride parade, the first legal gay pride parade, the fact that he got a permit for that on Hollywood Boulevard in 1970, and that was to celebrate the anniversary of Stonewall, that was huge. I mean, we just I can't even I can't I can't express that enough. And yes, there was some fantabulist put into it. And you had to convince people to show up for themselves, and he knew that. And also because he just he knew that gay people had been so royally screwed over in every way. Every, you know, it just it just takes one little arrest and you can lose your job, your family, your home, everything. And it could be an entrapment, even. And that didn't matter to anybody else.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

No, absolutely. Um, you you kind of referenced this earlier, but I think it's so important because I I, you know, I think these days people don't necessarily think about things or coalition building politics this way that often anymore. Everybody's so siloed. But Morris had you know connections and it was came out uh out of the labor movement, the civil rights movement, the anti-Vietnam war movement before he turned his energy full energy to gay liberation. You you mentioned that. But you know, how do you think those earlier fights shaped his understanding of coalition building and why he believed that gay people had to be out loud and visible and unapologetic?

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Yeah, but he never wanted to force anyone to do anything before they were ready for it. Um there was the there was strength in numbers, and he never wanted you to out yourself at work if it wasn't safe, if it was going to cost you the job or even your health. So there was timing, and I think by the early 80s, by the time AIDS was really heating up, um, there was the the whole community was forced to coalesce behind themselves and to be strong in who they were. Um there was there was AIDS was a double-edged sword for sure. And um, but yes, coalition building was very important to Morris. Because, you know, and he got a lot of straight people to come on board. He got um uh Wallace Albertson and her husband uh Jack Albertson, the actor. They were the first hetero couple to appear in the gay parade. So that was a big deal. And he got um straight uh councilwoman Peggy Stevenson. She was definitely pro you know for gay rights, but she just didn't know what to do. And so Morris led her along. Said, here, we we need this pass. Can you support this? And whether it passed or not, her support meant everything.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Wouldn't that the term intersectionality is something that we heard so often, you know, watch whether it be you know, watching or reading your book, watching documentaries about Harvey Milk, or uh, you know, I mean, you know, or the milk, the film Milk, which you know talked to showed him, you know, the sort of the clash between, you know, with the whole Prop 6 battle, the people who felt that we should either the people that said we should work with the straight politicians, we should work with the Civil War African Americans, with uh the Chicano movement, you know, but there were in other words, there were so many different people with different ideas about what the most effective way to achieve change is. And Morris had to deal with you know all sorts of different people, betrayals, ego clashes, gay wrongs inside the movement itself. And so, what would you say the hardest internal lessons from his story that modern modern activists uh still need to hear?

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Oh, that's a that's a loaded question.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Um I know.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Yeah, I think you know, Morris was a bit of an enigma in that he was a he was all about community, but he also liked to be alone. He he worked best solo. He really like joined Briggs, I think is a good example because there were different um pockets of the of the Briggs initiative. And Morris was kind of a solo player with that. He would definitely cross paths with Harvey Milk and everyone else. But and they would call him and say, Hey, we're you know, we're doing this, we're doing that, and he'd say, Well, we're gonna, you know, march up. I'm going with Steve Berman, and he's the guy that walked along, uh walked up the uh California and raised consciousness and uh raised funds for breaks. So um I think what we have to remember is that this can be very lonely work, and you also have to be uh fearless and standing up for what you truly believe. And sometimes you're gonna be the only voice in the room saying, No, that's white. That's it, you know, and everybody else saying, No, it's black. And you say, but I see it as white. And so there's it, there they can be very lonely. And uh Morris didn't mind that. He could, and he knew so many people that he just walk around the corner with him, and you're gonna, it's it's like it really walking down the street with Morris was like being with the mayor. You hello, hello, hello.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

He was I mean, they say Harvey Milk was uh the mayor of Castro Street. I think you could argue that that uh Morris Kite was the L mayor of L Gay LA. I mean, you know, that's actually this. I mean, you know, they both were probably the two most influential gay rights leaders in in California back then, certainly.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Yes. And then they had the thing that they had most in common is they weren't afraid of their enemies. And Morris would always, you know, be very respectful with uh Chief uh Davis, when the chief of police, and then uh Daryl Gates. They were awful people, they were terrible to the gay community, but Morris would always show up and say, This is what we need, and this is why we need it, and thank you very much. And so he was able to make strides to the point that Daryl Gates even called him at the end at when he was leaving office and thanked him for working with him.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

So it was Daryl Gates who who left office, you know, arguably, well, not arguably, left office in in this cloud of what wasn't he police chief during the Rodney King riots? Was that Daryl Gates? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Yes. Oh, he was awful. He was like and it was like so at least now we know his his target wasn't just the gay community.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

It was everyone.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Yeah, but I mean that's a for me, that's a perfect example coming back to that whole topic of intersectionality. And look, I'm as big of a Democrat and you know, gay, you know, longtime self-proclaimed gay rights activist, you know, which I know seems a little highfalutin, you know, but uh, you know, I do think about, you know, I feel very strongly and very principled about these topics. Having said that, you know, I do think part of that anecdote right there about Morris working with Daryl Gates, who was you know one of the most conservative, bigoted police chiefs in LA history, I think sometimes, you know, there's a because we believe so strongly in these principles, not just in the gay rights movement, in the progressive sort of movement in general, political movement, I think sometimes people can be a little bit uh wary of the the notion that sometimes you have to work with people that you don't necessarily agree with, and that somehow working with people, even if you have very strong, even if you really don't like them, and even if you have really strong differences, that that somehow makes you uh morally compromised in some way. And I think that's been a big sort of clash in the progressive movement these last this last decade is you've got the people who believe in, you know, if you even, you know, if you if you even talk to the other side or you even, you know, compromise even a little bit in order to get you know to achieve your your main goal, that that somehow makes you know, should makes you a traitor or means that and and those those sorts of clashes have always been there. I mean, I know watching The Normal Heart with Larry Kramer. How do you even work with Ed Cott because you know he's a closeted gay man, and you know, and his his administration has been silent. So, you know, there's always been this sort of clash between the people that are like, you can't even talk to the other side because then you're a traitor, if you do, you're a traitor. And then the people who are like, you know what, we may have differences, not just the other side, but even within our own, you know, with the black leaders or the Latino leaders, there's always going to be differences and divides that need to be crossed. But sometimes you have to talk to people you disagree with in order to achieve uh your goals.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Absolutely, and Morris knew that he, I mean, this this purity test that we put people through today is just it's so destructive. No, it's inhuman.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

It's uh and it's arbitrary too, because not not to get not to not to get the weeds, but like, okay, don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things I love about Bernie Sanders, but you know, with Hillary Clinton, I was a big Hillary supporter back in 2016, and I was just like, So, of course, nobody's perfect, like, you know, sure, were there things, you know, there were that she could have been better at or whatever. But this no shit, first of all, all the people that okay, now I'm really getting off topic, but like people that were like they were criticizing Hillary for you know speaking of Goldman Sachs or whatever. I'm like, wait a second, Bernie Sanders, who I I love and respect in a lot of ways, by the way. Bernie Sanders voted with the NRA for 10 years, you know, when he was a you know, because he was a I know this is really off topic, but to the point that I don't understand where all these people that came up with these litmus tests or purity tests about, you know, Hillary Clinton not being sufficiently progressive, I'm like, this woman, you know, has spent her whole life, you know, fighting for feminism, for gay right. You know, in other words, this notion that who gets to decide who is a true progressive or a true, you know, principled activist or to me, as long as you're on the on the team towards trying to get to the eventual goal of a better, more righteous society, then you know, even if we don't see eye to eye on everything, to me that's good enough. You know, if somebody's willing to work with you.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

And I think, you know, speaking of the Clintons, I think a good example it would be um Bill Clinton's don't ask, don't, don't tell. Now, this was big, it was very big disappointment when he did that. Um now, mind you, Morris didn't want any gays in the military. He didn't want anybody in the military. He, you know, Morris came at a school of thought where he thought all gays were pacifist. Well, he got a rude awakening.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Well, if that's a right, that's a perfect example right there. People are saying Bill Clinton wasn't liberal enough on Don't Ask Don't Tell. Morris was saying, you know, we didn't we he was even to the left of those people saying that we shouldn't even so it just shows there's so many different uh factions.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

But Morris set my wagon straight with that. We had a talk about it, and he said, Well, the problem is expectations. Did you have the expectation that he was going to allow the openly gays in the military at this time? And he he he rationalized that it was a step towards where they wanted to be. Which it turns out to be true. Um so he understood they're little steps, uh little increments. And we're gonna have to go through a lot of this again in different areas. Um so yeah, it's it's uh the people who didn't like Morris was mostly because Morris would shake the hands of the other people they didn't like. We get we're we're not getting anywhere with that.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

No, if if you if you want to achieve I think that there's truth to the idea, whether because it I mean there's it's proof, there's proof, whether it be, not to bring them up again, but Larry Kramer, Morris Kite, almost all of the most successful activists in the history of politics, really, uh made it had enemies and had people that you know said they were they either sold out or they were you know gadflies or curmudgeons or you know, I mean that that's just if you're actually gonna achieve something, you're always gonna piss some people off, you know, or and that's just the otherwise you can sit there and just try not to offend anybody, but ultimately that's not gonna achieve anything or get you anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

You have to offend people, you have to be willing to offend people. And then if you are like Morris Kite, you can be polite enough where you'll offend them and then they for immediately forgive you because they see your point. And it's not about going personal, it's about being a principal. Right. Um, and I think he understood that. But when he when he questioned like what were your expectations, and that's the only reason why we really get disappointed is when our expectations are out of balance.

unknown 34:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

That's why, you know, you hear and then I'll move on to the next question. But it's true, like this whole debate of incrementalism and how sometimes, you know, people are like, that's not good enough. You know, we got to go all the way. And and it's always been, you know, for what my my opinion's worth, for what it's worth, I I've always believed not that we shouldn't have big aspirations, but that ultimately, you know, the only way you're gonna actually make a difference is by being okay with making these steps towards. I mean, look, you know, gay, gay marriage, it took 20 years, basically. Or no, maybe no, yeah, 93 to 2015. That was about when the first Hawaii case, I think was it was uh before the longer than 93, it's just longer. Right. Well, Baker v. Nelson back in the 70s. I mean, so it was a long journey. Um, and you gotta be okay with that sometimes. That even though we wanted gay marriage 40 years ago, it took, you know, it took a while to get there.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Um you have to be comfortable, and I'm I'm at the age now where I'm seeing this where I have to be comfortable with the idea of planting seeds for a tree of which I will never enjoy. I will never enjoy the shape, but that's okay. Song that that that tree will come up someday.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Morris knew that. Um, and you know, he he never stopped working right right up to his last day. He never stopped making phone calls on behalf of what needed to be done and addressed, and that was him.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

I guess yeah, there were two or I guess two final questions, but I guess I could sort of wrap them all into or wrap them both into one. Um one of Morris's biggest achievements, and one that I always really looked to closely, is sort of a roadmap. Um, because I was involved. I was one of the leaders of the uh Beverly Hills Hotel boycott and the Dorchester Collection when they passed Sharia Law and Brunei, and about 20, this was 12 years ago now, but it I was involved. I worked with Cleve Jones on the boycott, and uh and I looked to the example of the Kors Beer Boycott with Morris Kite and with Harvey Milk and a lot of other prominent gay rights leaders at the time and labor leaders. Um, but what would you say on that specifically, on the coors boycott, but also sort of more broadly? Um what would you say are some of the big lessons that we can take away in terms of tools that activists can use now as a means of fighting this uh this administration and this authoritarian movement that we're seeing around the country? I so I would say sort of more specifically in terms of the boycott, but then more broadly, just some from his life and his his work during his lifetime.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Well, I think what we can learn from the Kors boycott, and this is where Morris became very unpopular, um Corz was was it and probably still is an awful company, not just to gays, but to women, to any minorities. They have they have different levels of pay, and oh, they're just terrible. And but they started throwing money at the uh gay pride parade at West Hollywood, big money. And so now in the early 80s, mid-80s, there were there was a lot of money in the gay community. And a lot of that was because of AIDS, you know, there was it was being distributed in different ways, but it was also because there were a lot of double income, no children households. So it is it's the same thing that we're gonna it it and I have to face here. It's the lore of money. And it's not just the power of money, it is it is the comfort of money. And so they were they were arguing with Mars saying, but they want to give us all this money and we can do this with it and that with it. And Mars said, there's a price tag on that. And and he felt that the gay community was being used and abused by the KOS Corporation and the KOS family specifically. And they didn't want to hear it. They didn't want to hear it. So I think the risks that we have is um there's always gonna be differences of opinions in in rooms. I go to a lot of meetings, I'm on Zoom a lot, and we have to be able to listen to someone that we don't agree with and try to communicate in a much more open and honest way. We're not gonna always get what we want, but if we can at least stay on the path of of liberation, then I then then we're gonna be on the winning side. And um The Coors thing was was upsetting. It was, you know, and I saw how they treated him was terrible. There were a lot there was a lot of disrespect, not not just because he was an elder of the community, um, but because he was an elder. He was an older you just don't talk to old people like that, I think to myself. Um and Nancy was involved with that as well. And it was complicated. It could be very complicated, but it all comes down to one thing. It's about money. We need money, but we can't disabuse ourselves for it.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Absolutely. No, I there's some I think that's why I wanted to talk to you was not only uh not only did did uh did I enjoy getting to meet you and getting and being honored, honestly, to be part of the documentary, but you know, I when I when you gave me a copy of the book and I've been reading it and uh really enjoying it, I I already had a you know a good base of information about Morris's life, but I it occurred to me that I can't think of a more timely and more important subject to discuss, not just Morris and and the lessons that he left behind um for for our generation, for the next generation. But I think um, you know, if I I as I said in the interview for the documentary, I so wish he were still with us, you know, and that people like, you know, we need people like that more than ever, but at least we have you and this incredible book um as a way of memorializing that information and that legacy. And um, I encourage everybody to uh to take a look at it. Well, do you have the link so people can buy it in the caption of this video?

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Um you know what? I'm gonna put up on the ferrell house link and Amazon. And that's uh the best places to get it for now, and then we'll have more going down the road. And you can also go to my website, we'll have www.morriskite.com and also mariannecherry.com will be a good place to get the book as well. I hope you all stay in touch.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Absolutely. And you know, I I look forward to seeing it in person, but I loved, I saw the photos online of the tribute of the memorial to Morris that they put up at uh Hollywood Forever Cemetery. And I saw Maxine Waters was there. Was that right?

SPEAKER_01 41:33

She showed up. She was there on a Saturday afternoon by herself, no, no security detail. And she was great, she loved Morris. She knew Morris for many years, and we had a standing room-on only um crowd on the rooftop of the new building at Hollywood Forever. And she looked out and she said, You could bring out all these people 23 years after you're dead. That's pretty, that's pretty good. That's saying something.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

It really is. It really is. Well, thank you, Marianne. I'm so grateful for your time. And please, yeah, everybody, please buy the book and stay tuned for the documentary, which hopefully will be coming soon. Maybe a movie one day. Maybe a movie.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Oh yes, yes, there will be. Yeah, there's something in development now.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

So oh, cool, very cool. I can't wait. I'm excited. Thank you, Marianne. Thank you, Duke. It was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

It was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Thank you, Mary Ann Cherry, for joining us. Thank you, everybody, for watching. Please like, share, subscribe. If you have any questions, you can email us at questions at Dukesdownload.com. And please engage in the comments. This is a two-way conversation. So um, please, we want your feedback, we want your comments, we want your support. Um, just please keep coming back and thank you for tuning in. See you next week. Thank you for joining me today on Duke's Download. This podcast is part of Pridehouse Media, hosted by me, Duke Mason, and produced and edited by Josh Rosen's Wike. Original music composed by Nell Balaban. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're there, leave us a rating and review. It really helps others to discover the show. I'd love to stay connected with you, so join the conversation by following me at James Duke Mason on Instagram and X, or by emailing me at questions at Dukesdownload.com.