Eric Orner on Queer Comics, Ethan Green, Capitol Hill & Barney Frank’s Legacy

Hey everybody, this week on Dukes Downloaded, I’m sitting down with someone who has truly lived at the intersection of queer culture, politics, and comics — Eric Orner.

You might know Eric as the creator of the iconic LGBTQ comic strip “The Mostly Unfabulous Social Life of Ethan Green.” Or maybe you know him from his graphic biography “Smahtguy: The Life and Times of Barney Frank.” Or maybe — plot twist — you didn’t know he also worked on Capitol Hill, AND at Disney Studios out in Hollwood. 

Yeah. We get into all of it.

Eric tells me how he went from being a political cartoonist in conservative New Hampshire (yes, really) to becoming a major voice in queer comics. We talk about how Ethan Green was born out of his own dating disasters — because honestly, what better source material is there?

We also reflect on Barney Frank’s legacy following his recent passing and what it means for LGBTQ political history.

This episode is really about how art and politics collide — and how queer storytelling shapes culture in ways we don’t always see coming.

If you care about:

• LGBTQ history
• Queer comics
• Barney Frank
• Capitol Hill stories
• The evolution of the gay press
• Graphic novels and political storytelling

You’re going to love this one.

Follow Eric on Instagram@EricSamOrner

You can write to us at: Questions@DukesDownload.com

And follow us onInstagram: 

• @jamesdukemason
• @PrideHouseMedia

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Welcome to Duke's Download, my new weekly podcast. I'm Dude Faith in here. And each week I'll bring you can't stop provoking conversations with incredible guests in the worlds of politics and pop culture. Together we'll explore stories, ideas, and moments that shape our lives and drive change. I'm so glad you're here. Now let's get started. Today we're diving into an extraordinary conversation with someone who has lived at the fascinating intersection of queer culture, political power, and visual storytelling. My guest is Eric Warner, acclaimed cartoonist, author, lawyer, and former Capitol Hill staffer. Eric created the groundbreaking long-running comic strip, The Mostly Unfabulous Social Life of Ethan Green, which brought authentic, funny, and unapologetically queer stories to newspapers around the country for 15 years in the 90s and 2000s. He's also the author of the 2022 graphic novel, which I'm currently reading right now, Smott Guy, The Life and Times of Barney Frank, which is fantastic, by the way. And is a deeply personal insider biography of the late Congressman Barney Frank, who has been a longtime hero of mine and uh for whom Eric worked for over a decade in roles, including staff counsel and press secretary for the House Financial Services Committee. Um, with Barney Frank's recent passing, um, the conversation feels especially meaningful to me. Um, you know, Eric brings a rare firsthand perspective on one of the most influential figures in modern American history and politics and LGBTQ history. Um we'll talk about his career in comics and politics, the making of his acclaimed graphic novel, and the challenges of balancing art and public service and uh much more. Eric, uh apologies for the long introduction, but you are a true Renaissance man. Uh, so there's so much to so many massive uh achievements to uh to uh to highlight. But thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Well, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you so much. And it was uh very sweet of you. I don't know whether I I recognize any of it, but but thank you.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Well, you know, it's it's so funny because obviously um I've been aware of you and your work in you know as a cartoonist for a long time now. But I actually uh you know didn't know, which to me, I mean, aside from your massive success as a cartoonist, the fact that you also had this incredible career in politics and just simultaneously, and obviously I'm assuming it informed your you know the the narrative of of your work and um and Ethan Green, but uh because there's so much to cover, I wanted to say maybe we could start chronologically and uh because it is it is a rare combination to have you know work in the sort of the creative realm and also to have a you know normally like in my case I have no creative abilities whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Well, I I don't believe that because your your show is great, so and and it's you know, and that takes a lot of uh creativity. You might not be you know painting a still life, but it it's creative.

SPEAKER_03 3:11

Well, it's just you know, some people have like that, you know, they're good at writing or they're good at, you know, so it's like it's two different parts of your brain. But how how did those two sort of main components of your life story sort of uh how do they begin and how do they come together?

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Well, it I mean, it is a weird combo. I you know, and a lot of for a long time it embarrassed me, um, because all I ever wanted to be was an artist. Um all I ever all I ever wanted to be was a cartoonist. Um but being wanting to be a cartoonist unless unless you're you know, unless you and it happens pretty regularly, but for some people, um you know, the the chances of hitting uh uh a jackpot and getting uh you know a big syndication deal or um or an animation deal is is pretty rare. Um and I needed a day job. So um so going way back to when I was uh uh you know a lot younger in the 90s, I was uh publishing cartoons in the Boston Phoenix, which was like a a strong weekly, you know, when it back in the back in those days there were these great sort of uh genre of newspapers, alt weeklies, independent, alternative weeklies. They covered they usually had two um they covered the arts, um much with much more thoroughness and column space than the big dailies did. Um so and they covered politics in a much more independent m muck.

SPEAKER_03 4:54

Like a local local beat kind of thing, like that. Totally. That's not totally that's a big reason why you know media is so screwed up now, is because you have these big national outlets as opposed to local outlets that really were like giving people the real news on what's happening in their community, and like you're right. That kind of uh, you know, those are few those media outlets are kind of few and far between now, at least the way they were.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

It's true, although like I've I've thought a lot about this lately. It's a little segue. Um, I I do think that, you know, there's a lot of hand-wringing about the loss of local news, but I just I think people always got their news from organs that were other than you know, the three networks and the big city dailies. I grew up in Chicago. Chicago Tribune was a right-wing rag, you know, in in the 70s and 80s when when I was a kid. Um, and so we read the Chicago Reader, which was Hipper and Younger, and and I think people I I think it's the same impulse that causes people to listen to to your podcast. People find their news in these alternative ways. Yeah, podcasting is kind of a an example. You're right, it's a perfect example of that. Yeah, it's but it's but it's still early days for um for receiving news via podcast channels or or or be or or or YouTube. Um 30 years from now, I bet it'll coalesce into in the same way that nobody, you know, people in 1949, I don't know who was reading The Village Voice, but by the time I was in college in in the 80s, everybody was. So I I don't know. I like I I well anyway, long story short, um I was I had a uh I had started to draw Ethan Green, and it was uh running um in the local gay paper, but also on a kind of irregularly in the Boston Phoenix. And uh Barney um uh saw that some of these cartoons. This is these are the days of uh um uh a very hostile um Catholic Archbishop in Boston, uh Bernard Law, who eventually got in trouble with the you know spotlight team and the sexual scandal. Um I don't think he he only got in trouble for covering it up.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

I don't think he, you know, I I don't think pedophile goes under his under his maybe uh uh you know accomplice or uh yeah or um um yeah willing uh yeah willingly turned an eye.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Right. And so he I I wrote some cartoons that were very Cardinal Law is very hostile towards um uh HIV uh support and education work in Boston. Um and uh so the gay community, including myself, you know, uh I mean it was in the middle of a crisis, and and the Catholic Church was uh in Boston, which of course the Catholic Church is very important in Boston. Anyway, I wrote a series of cartoons kind of lampooning him. Um and uh uh Barney liked those. And uh somebody introduced me to him at some point, and he said, if you know if you ever need a job, I I I think I can tell you can write. Um and and that was sort of um we can talk about this later. You know, he was a he was a uniquely creative person. And and well, I shouldn't say that. He was in a uniquely um um iconic. He had a unique voice. But he also didn't, he didn't look at things the way most people look. Most people would say, like, what does a cartoonist know about politics? You know, I mean, unless they want to be a political cartoonist. But you know, but Barney was like, this kid can can synthesize an issue in in, you know, yes, he's drawing it, but what difference does it make? And so he offered me a job, and he was right, and that cartoonists is a little bit like being a poet, you know, it it it's it's you know, unless you're very lucky, you know, you might need some financial help along the way. Um and so I uh uh over different periods in time in my life uh when I needed work, I would I would switch um to uh uh working on a congressional staff. And the thing is, I I I came from a political background in Chicago, so I you know it's a little bit like I tell people it's like um you know, the kid who wants to be uh, you know, uh I don't know, an Olympian bobsledder, but his parents ran a Pontiac dealership. So even though his passion is bobsledding, he knows how to sell a Pontiac. I grew up in a political household. I I learned this stuff early, and you know, I was competent at it.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

And so that's where the two of the most sort of like it's hard. I mean, especially, you know, I would imagine, you know, I mean, still to this day, but like Boston and Chicago are two of the most like politically, you know, like, you know, those are those are tough towns. Like if you're raised in that environment, you know how politics works. Right. And you're right, I never thought of it that way, but it's so true that not only do you have to be able to synth synthesize and sort of you know make a punchy uh whether it be political uh point or otherwise, but it but it's true when you do when you do a comic strip or cartoon, it's like within a few sentences, you know, you have to come up with something that's really and you know incisive and and uh you know and that has some some.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Something with a you know, let's say uh a thesis, something that's funny that draws people in, um, something that's you know that hits them hard, you know, so that it calls action.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

I mean, he certainly knew uh he was a master of uh making making his point. Absolutely. Well, that was the first time in a funny way, usually too.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

The first time I ever heard him, like I say, I did meet, you know, I was introduced to him at some event in the south end of Boston, and that's how our weird affiliation happened.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

But Did you work for him in his district office or in in Washington or both?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Uh both at different times. When I was when I was younger, I worked in um to you know, not to give you like the long no, I'm I'm interested. I worked for him for 10 years in Boston, and then I said I was meant to draw, to make, you know, to make a living drawing only, and I am moving to Los Angeles and getting a job in animation, which I did. I actually got a job storyboarding at Disney, um, which was uh I learned enormous amounts of technical artistic skills, but boy was I miserable because I don't care about drawing Tinkerbell, you know, and and that's and and if you're in that building, that's what you care about. And so, and during the recession, during the Great Recession, I got laid off, and um, and then I went because I needed a job. I went back uh to work for Barney and this time in DC at the for the financial services.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

What a what a time to to I know I'm jumping around a lot. No, no, no, but I mean believe me.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

I mean, I said, are you I you know I I had called him up because I was upset, not because I was, you know, I I guess I wanted a job storyboarding on the Simpsons, not but he said leaving the country out of finance of financial calamity. Well, that's the thing, and then to to be the press secretary, yeah. So which, you know, and then to to suffer the you know, I I'm a hard worker, and I and and you know, dur from when I have a job like that from nine to five, I'm not I'm not drawing. So, you know, like I uh so eventually I won this my fellow staffers over, but those first couple of months, you know, they expect, you know, they're in the middle of like cran trying to create Dodd Frank, the Wall Street Reform Act, and he hires uh an ex-cartoonist to be uh the press secretary. They wanted to kill him, um, and they weren't all that happy to see me, but it's all worked out fine.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

And and how many years were you there? Uh, when did you did you leave in 2000? I left.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

I left when he I left. I worked for Maxine Waters for a little bit after Maxine became the um the the the chair after Barney uh retired. Um so I was in DC about four years in that in that last dent.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

Was you know, because yeah, I know you mentioned that uh Ethan Green started during you first started for a gay newspaper. It was first syndicated or you know, printed. Was was there ever uh uh first of all, what was the the genesis of the story and of the character, but also was it a conscious consideration whether to were you just like I'm gonna be unapologetically, you know, queer or gay, you know, in terms of the the the themes uh from the vic from the get-go, or did you ever consider, you know, maybe I should consider the time, like maybe I want to do something that's more uh you know uh uh less less taboo, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Well, the answer to the question, I at risk of but I this is how I spend my life. I spend my life apologizing for the the the like the completely scrambled nature of my professional trajectory, but you know, at some point you get old enough, you're like, I own it.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

And no, you did it, you've done you've you you're like you've done it your way, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Well and and let me let me jump ahead of my the point I was gonna make to answer your question. What's nice is a lot of people who uh do creative things, whether they write screenplays, they write fiction. Um you know, if they if you're just sitting in your house creating all the time, my day jobs, which I was always embarrassed about having to have, because I thought a real artist, a successful artist, doesn't need a day job. But oddly, my day jobs have uh turned into wonderful material for my creative work. So it's worked out. But but in answer to your question, um right out of college, uh I got a job, a dream job, as the political cartoonist, the daily editorial cartoonist for the newspaper. Uh Concord, New Hampshire had a daily newspaper. Um and it was a great job, but this is late 80s, and uh New Hampshire is a hostile place for a young gay guy to be.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Umservative.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

It's changed a lot. Uh you know, there's still pockets of of the old granite state, live free or die, kind of, you know tremusly Yankee kind of. Um, but now it's Q. At the time it will it was threatening. And so I I did it for about six months and I quit because I wanted to move back to Boston and find a boyfriend. You know, they that's you know, I'm under a boyfriend.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

I didn't care about making a living because when you're 22, you're you know, you you're you know, that's kind of like what you want is a you know a boyfriend or you know, or yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

And so you prioritize your your personal uh personal life. I just couldn't um well I'll tell you the story of what what prompted it, but but when I did that, I you know, I started like like you do when you're that age, then I mean now you would you would be swiping more and online more rather than going to bars like I was doing, but it it it struck me as I was meeting every creepy guy on the planet. Like I, you know, each one was um, and I mean they probably thought the same thing of me. I'm not you know, no offense to them. It's just like I but I thought it was funny, so I started to draw them up. I started to draw the experiences up because it was like, oh my god, this you know, this guy can't get a date, and the dates he gets are like like the worst. Um, and he makes the worst decisions. He goes home with the absolute worst. He goes home with a guy that you know that at at 10 o'clock at night, he was like, I would never, but in in boxing, which closes early, you know, last call at 12:30. 12:30, he finds himself going to some horror department in Kenmore Square with the same guy that he would have, you know, he said. Right. You know. So I started to draw, um I started to make notes of all that. Then I it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Like it was like that things, you know, massive successes like that often come from something like, you know, it's just something totally organic that one day it just occurred to you that this was, you know, all the all the yes, you had to deal with some creepy dudes, but in the end it actually, hey, it was worth it.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Oh my god, you know, now I cherish every one of them. I wish I could find them and thank them. But but the thing, um it it it was so in answer to your question, like were you looking, you know, did you make a conscious decision to draw something dicey? And it's kind of like yes, because I had given up my job. I had no prospects, no, you know, I was just a young guy trying to uh being working as a paste up artist in Boston. Um, and so I was drawing these for uh I they I was being they were honest and they they were funny in their horrid details because I was really drawing them for myself. Um and then and that that built on itself. Um you know I got I got dumped by a a boy that I I was madly in love with, and then I started to make fun of me moping around for six months. So that that it added this other element to it. And it it it did the whole the whole cartoon had kind of a lonely heart, you know, like the old-fashioned lonely hearts kind of mostly on fabulous. Well, that's the thing, right? Yeah, and and the and that was in reaction to, you know, I look around Boston, some of these other guys are like, you know, I mean it's the 80s, it's still preppy, and you know, they're nodding their their sweaters, you know, wearing, you know, sh no shirt with their perfect torsos, and they're taking the, you know, they're taking the and they all have great jobs somehow, and they're taking the ferry to Provincetow. Um, so Unfabulous was very definitively like, and it somehow it you know it resonated with people.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

So absolutely. I mean, I know it it's I mean it continues to be in the in the zeitgeist, but I mean it was, you know, at over a hundred LGBT uh you know media back, you know, but especially also at a time when, you know, I mean, I I I remember uh seeing it. I mean, you know, as a because I used to go in when I was a teenager, yeah, uh I tried to get my hands on any, you know, on you know, all the LGBT uh gay rags. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

I mean I say that I say that lovingly because I to me the the gay press doesn't get nearly the credit that it should. It's it also left a lot of people, a lot of people poured their, including myself, um poured everything they had in into giving the gay community uh uh like uh uh a media, you know, a house of work.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

People couldn't go online and read, you know, uh um you know uh the advocate website or whatever. Oh, you know, it's just that was literally you were lucky if you could go to a bookstore or a newsstand and find one of those. Absolutely. Yeah, one of those.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

And the thing is, the advocate was one thing, like I mean, because you know, this is I wasn't this was the nineties, so the uh the the like the websites started to show up towards the end of that decade, and people could do that, but I don't know that that's and and you know I thank out for for for the advocate. But if you were living in uh um Montgomery. And you know, and and s some godsend you found like the weird mimeographed little Alabama gay newspaper. That meant the world to people. And I still, I mean, you know, I still get um uh letters from people about you know how much how much all that meant to them and it meant something to me too. I mean it meant a great deal to me.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

So well and then for it to be turned into a feature film too, um which doesn't that doesn't happen very often.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

I mean you know it I can't say it was the world's greatest film you know but I but I tell people what I usually say is that one it's I like it better now but I also the fact that it didn't die in development you're you you're in Los Angeles right I mean I mean everything just dies on some development shelf.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

The fact that it actually got I probably cumulatively spent years of my life trying to develop projects that uh no none of which ever like you know got past the it's hard it's hard or whatever and I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure you will but I but I I do yeah so as at this more advanced stage of my life I I'm I'm more appreciative like my god they actually got made it you know I've got a DVD right here I don't have a DVD player anymore but goodness it's it's drawing you though you against the odds I mean you know uh you know you you you it it uh you know you you achieve what very few uh were able to achieve it's true yeah um but would you say that but like even though I know you said the politics and working in politics was sort of not necessarily your initial um you know priority would do you still does politics something that you still like after you left working for for Barney was it still is it still something that you that you are drawn to or are you uh totally and I and I jumped over I kind of buried which uh the only person that's better at burying I mean I know you have a great relationship with your mom the only person's better at burying the lead than me and I'm pretty good at it is my own mother who's like oh my god it's all interesting but what are you trying to say um I wanted to be a political cartoonist and one newspapers were dying like it was but it by the by 1994 uh you saw the writing on the wall like they were and then I had you know I I I had to so to begin with I'm a I'm a political junkie like I care about politics I I I'm I I it's it's what I'm most passionate about.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Um the the the gay comics trip which became you know so dear to me was was um not something I started it always made perfect sense to me I draw well um and uh and I I I care about politics.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

Well if it was 1960 right you know there'd be a lot of job prospects but in 1995 um uh they were going away and Ethan Green suddenly came out of nowhere and provided sort of a a really nice um consolation prize it but and by the way what's it just occurred to me that yeah because I I was gonna mention to you how I met uh Barney because well I was a it just occurred to me that we were there I granted I was only there for a month but I was there while you were working for for Barney because I was a page in Congress oh really and in 2008. And who who did you do you work when you were a page you get you get appointed by somebody right or I it's and it was the the the circumstances were super random because I mean I this is may this may not uh this may not sound the best but I admit I had my there was some there was some string pulling because I had nothing to do with the district it was a great nice guy Dave Camp although he was a Republican from from California from Michigan. That's right right right okay but long story basically I've never not that anyone would care I've never said this publicly but I admit the the chief of staff his chief of staff was a big go goes fan really he invited us to on a my mom and I on a tour of DC of the Capitol and then like a year or two later he was like we stayed in touch and he was like hey you know Duke if you're ever interested in being a page um you know what we I you know the congressman could maybe nominate you. Right. And and so I mean long story short I was a political junkie from when I was like 12 and you know when pages have the opportunity to request a meeting and a photo with you know any member of Congress. And so anyway I'm got to meet Barney or Congressman Frank and we have a great picture together that he signed to me. Oh and he gave me a tour of his office and uh so but I mean that yeah that was continues to be one of the greatest most meaningful but probably of all the people if you said who have you met that like was the most special and meaningful to you have that moment with him you know absolutely he was and I I just remember I mean I got to sit on the house floor and watch him you know come on like doing his tie you know right right always always uh you know I I don't be obscure and actually it's funny you say about that because sometimes he would and Barney was not the kind of boss that you know you didn't hold his coat you didn't hold the door open for him you didn't make his dinner reservations he seriously disapproved of all that um you were there to work on policy and to do your job not to be any sort of personal assistant but I was always nervous about stuff like this you know they'd say it's in Longworth 124A 5 and I and I'd be like where the hell is that and um and and he wouldn't keep track of details like that so I'd be running in front of him when I run in front of him he'd always be very critical of like my collar was screwed up in the back and I'd be like you're you're making these I mean I you know I don't I don't want to I I obviously like idolized him this is not a this is not a no no it's one of the endearing things about it I just remember his collar being all like up like this totally and his like one of the staff members like doing his tie as he was walking to the floor absolutely which you and then well that makes me then I have to tell you this one story um about him that and I I was I was young I was maybe 23 um and a lot of people like he would like to work in the car so he would have a driver a volunteer driver um but he was the world's meanest backseat driver so he would make people cry and they would quit um I can I can imagine I could see that I could imagine and so he had no no time for BS he was just like except unless you were talking political history and I remember like so you know we would be driving along and he would he would you know he liked it he liked a quiz like um I would read something and then I would test him on it like who did Mayor LaGuardia run against um for his first term and he would say Johnny Walker you know like and he'd be right but but on on one occasion I came to his house it was it was a Sunday morning and uh we'd be in a uh uh an event in New Bedford um which is uh coastal Massachusetts an hour south we had to be there in like 45 minutes he came out wearing like uh you know uh like a an undershirt a sleeveless undershirt and um his shirt his his white shirt was dripping wet in a ball in his hands and he and he and I'm like I s I remember saying like what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Your shirt's wet and you have to be at the event in 45 minutes. Yeah and he said uh he said I said um get a new shirt and he said oh my shirt so I'm washing it and he said we'll take it to the cleaner and he said it's Sunday Einstein um and then he proceeded to like roll down my back window and and yeah like and I said um I you know I could get a ticket if I drive this way and he said you could lose your job no I said I could lose my license if I drive this way and he said you could lose lose your this crappy job if you don't and so so we didn't and I've I I I've always thought about drawing that because you know the big shirt is billowing off the off my Chevy cavalier. Anyway it's it's very uh it's it's a it's a it's a uh very it's a cinematic moment you know it's funny uh and I hope I was speaking of I hope I hope this gets made into a movie well you know I really think it could and your story I'm grateful and the thing is if you it's funny you say that because you know because it's happened to me before I realized that it's lightning and you know and certain things you know Hamilton sat on a on a shelf for 25 years I owned that book that just the book you know so you never know but if it did that scene of you know it's the it's the it's the middle it's high summer in Massachusetts and it's a Sunday so there's nobody on the highway and we're you know like the you know the like the goldenrod is you know in the background and Barney's shirt is flapping off the you know like a like a high you know a tall ship we'll see.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

It would make for a great scene. Well thank you well no and you know I I I could talk to you for hours but you know I do hope if people haven't read the book yet and haven't seen it that that they uh that they do purchase it because you know I was uh I I've been thinking about him a lot and uh and so when I think it's funny I think um my our mutual friend my producer Josh when he I think he talked about you coming on uh you know we were we were excited about the possibility of you coming on months ago but then when Congressman passed away I was like you know I was already super excited but now I was like what a I couldn't think of a more timely uh uh conversation and and I hope people will go and read the book it it one nice thing I mean obviously I'm you know like he's he's gone and and that's his um but it's it's it's uh lovely to me to see the reaction of people over the last month where um their appreciation of his because he wasn't you know a lot of our a lot of our heroes come more in the form of civil rights heroes you know even Harvey Milk who actually held office for a while but they were up from the street activists and Barney understood that you know like that you know that wasn't he was willing to do the awfully sometimes you have to you have to work be uh you have to you know be you have to play the game in order to and and the grunt was you know the the the the m mind-numbing detail of of pushing legislation that eventually helps lots of people and the and the terrible compromises you have to make in order to do that which which has everybody mad at you I get I get letters to this day of people who are frustrated with him about the Employment Non-Discrimination Act you know about um uh about about because at some point you know the only way through for for a period was to to to exclude uh trans people which is very painful um but that's legislation you know the like you and and I think the current era is crystallizing the the I you know in people's minds what it means when the Congress of the United States is not active you know um if only I mean that's the thing I was also thinking like if only he were still there because you know if uh you know and I and I appreciated uh I mean I'm sure you did see it you know even the his final interview and and the politico interview he did it just made me think God like I you know you know he he was uniquely he would have been a uniquely suited uh person for for this time that we're living in you know and it's a tragedy that he wasn't 40 years younger but uh you know but nonetheless um I think your book does a great uh service and testament in terms of you know preserving his legacy and and your your role in it and um and I I believe me I I I'm I don't want to take up too much of your time but I literally I I I would love to talk to you more about politics and about uh well this is the thing I mean I read your what I look like I said and I don't want to I'm cognizant of the time too so I don't want to over talk but um you know your analysis of the California governor's race um uh you know is really uh really perceptive with I I was uh I mean I thank you I was a Californian for 10 years so I still um you know in those 10 years that I worked at Disney and other studios right um and uh I kind of think that all all Americans should have like a stint in California it gives you a very different um view of the country you know yeah it's it's a it's a it's its own you know weird weird world I love it I love California but it's there's nothing like it that's for sure no definitely not definitely you full time in Boston now or New York no no i i live in New York now full time yeah yeah well i i couldn't be more grateful thank you so much for taking the time thank you to the and it was i love it i'm a i'm a new fan of the podcast so uh you know i need a i don't know a cool cool t-shirt or something that's a good idea i'll make some idea maybe you know i was i was gonna make it i was like maybe you can design them i you know what i'm gonna say you know if you decide you want to build something confusing you know where to find me i didn't mean it like that you know what i mean it i'd be happy i uh but i'm just uh humbled and grateful and uh and i couldn't be more excited that we got to talk thank you very glad duke thank you for joining me today on duke's download this podcast is part of pridehouse media hosted by me duke mason produced and edited by josh rosenswike original music composed by nell baliban if you enjoyed this episode please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts while you're there leave us a rating and review it really helps others to discover the show I'd love to stay connected with you so join the conversation by following me at James Duke Mason on Instagram and X or by emailing me at questions at Dukesdownload.com