The Reality of Nice Vs Kind - Zoe Egerickx

“You don’t have to be liked as a leader, but you must always be kind.”

Those are the words of this week’s Unmuted podcast guest, Zoe Egerickx, a leadership and team coach who spent 30 years in the NHS. 

Zoe began training as a coach at weekends whilst still working as a nurse to help others find what she had discovered herself: that real, lasting change at work starts with how we relate to each other.

We cover: 

• Why moving into leadership can be so overwhelming and why nobody warns you it will be
• The difference between being nice and being kind and why it matters more than you'd think
• Why "clear is kind"  in the relatives' room, the boardroom, and everywhere in between
• How burnout is spreading at every level and what we can actually do about it
• The power of reverse mentoring and why your most junior colleague might have the most valuable perspective in the room
• Why we need to stop outsourcing the responsibility of our own wellbeing

She believes everyone is born with the potential for EQ but not everyone fully develops theirs. It can be grown through experience and self-awareness, and it underpins everything from clinical care to executive leadership.

Whether you’re an established leader, new to leadership and management, or simply looking for inspiration to grow your own emotional intelligence for the workplace - this podcast delivers a masterclass in how to hold space for others whilst taking care of yourself.

Music: 'Spirit of Fire' - fiftysounds.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello, here's a quick spoiler alert. If you work in any organisation, particularly in the care world, including the NHS, if you're new into leadership or feeling particularly overwhelmed if you're in leadership already, this edition of A Meeted will be of particular interest.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

When you move into a leadership role or a managerial role, there's nobody to hand over to. It was transformational in that I learned more about myself, I learned more about how to be a better leader, I was kinder to myself, I knew how to separate work from life so that I could take a break physically but also emotionally.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

And is an organisation made up of high-performing teams always the best approach?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

I I work with teams and they're struggling to uh build the relationships or get the results that they're there to achieve, and yet there's no time to for connection.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Hello, I'm Gary Robinson. Welcome to this edition of Unmuted, and here is Zoe Egricks.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

I am a leadership and team coach. That's my so I describe myself, that's my title. What that means is I work with uh leaders and teams, mostly in the NHS but also um in the charitable sector, to help them to work better together. I think we um don't often consider that aspect of what we do, how we work, the relationships we have with our colleagues. So my role is all about building those relationships, building the foundations for people to do their best work in the best way and to be happy and to get the best results.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

And you worked in the NHS, didn't you?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

I did, yes, for many years. I think about 30 years, which makes me feel old, um, but also gives me a bit of kudos in that space, hopefully. Um so I was a nurse uh initially, that was my my role. I worked um in pediatrics, so with children in intensive care mostly in the operating theatres, um, so a number of different roles. I loved it. Yeah, it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

And what are the differences? I mean, obviously you were you were on the front line um when you were in the NHS, and now you're I don't know whether the phrase is above the line or below the line, I don't know. I did you know all that sort of phraseology that comes in, but you're training now. So what differences um in terms of culture and in terms of the type of work that you do have you seen? So have there been any changes? Were there any people like you around to support you 30 years ago?

SPEAKER_00 3:59

No. No, no, this is a relatively new um form of support or intervention, I suppose. So coaching's been around for a long time, and I came into coaching because when I was working clinically and struggling, um, you know, working really hard, staying late, on call at night, coming back the next day, you know, it was it was I was in a really busy environment. There was a lack of nurses with pediatric training, so I was covering those um those aspects of the role whilst also leading a new department, leading commissioning, developing uh a new department. And at that time I was offered coaching to support me to maintain my work-life balance, to continue leading well at times when I felt really stressed and tired, um, like many others. And I remember concluding that that coaching experience and thinking, I want to offer that to others. This is something we need more of in the NHS, in the world, actually. This is it was transformational for me. I don't know that my coach actually knows that. Um, and so I decided then to train as a coach. So I was still working full-time and I had to do that independently. Um, so on weekends I remember going off to London to do my my coach training, and that's where it started. And that then went into um working from one-to-one with one-to-one sort of coaches, uh, individuals who I worked with, um, and then into developing my own business, setting up my own business and working with teams.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

So you mentioned the word transformational, which is a brilliant world, a word. Um, but in in what ways or in which ways?

SPEAKER_00 6:03

I would describe it as at that time when I was working clinically and leading a team in a new environment, I was overwhelmed. I think as we develop into leaders and and move into more senior roles, we're not often taught how to do that. We find ourselves there. We're really good clinically, and so then let's let's manage that team or department. And so I I was quite young as well. I think I was 30 when I was a matron, which now wouldn't be considered young as a matron, but in those days it was. And I I don't know, I just I I found I found it overwhelming. I wasn't doing the best job, and certainly it was affecting my as I say, my work life balance. And so I it was transformational in that I learned more about myself, I learned more about how to be a better leader, I was kinder to myself, I knew how to separate work from life so that I could take a break physically but also emotionally. Um I developed lots of strategies which I I think I still practice now to keep me well, effective in my role, happy, able to have good relationships at home. And and that was really transformational. So it would it had, I would say it had more of an impact on the relationships I had with people both at work and home, perhaps more so than learning new skills. Um it's a real there's a real distinct difference in that. I was able to grain uh gain perspective, and I I guess that's how I describe what I offer people now.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Do you think that part of it is when you're starting out on a career that you that you love and you want to impress and you want to be the very best, there's something going on inside us. So there is that, and I'm speaking from a personal and professional angle here actually, there's that need to please your paymasters, uh, and there's that need to prove to yourself that you can do the job, um, which then can lead to that overwhelm, that overwork, um, the the extremely long hours and everything that you put, you tend to put your heart and soul into a career that you really, really have wanted and you finally got your foot in the door. Do you think that was part of the uh the reasoning behind your uh work ethic and then leading to the overwhelm that you mentioned?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

I think it it's not so much about pleasing your employer or your boss. You know, my purpose has always been about doing a good job because it mattered, because it made a difference to people's lives. That's it, full stop. There are certain roles when you when you're nursing, particularly, where you you hand over, you're on shift, you work clinically, somebody comes and takes takes over after 12 and a half hours, you hand over your patient the workload, and the care continues. There's no break in that in that care provision. When you move into a leadership role or a managerial role, there's nobody to hand over to. So I think there was that uh pressure and obligation and commitment to do things well, because no one else was going to pick up what you didn't get done that day. And the the drive, the motivation was entirely about uh providing the best care, making sure that you know what I know is that if this if the people that you work with, the people who provide the care are in a good place, are well cared for, are valued, are recognised for their contribution, um, they'll do a better job. And patients ultimately get a better outcome. We know that there's research and evidence that supports that um, you know, they will do so much better in the long run. So it works for everybody. It's it's a no-brainer. There was there was no other option. So the job had to get done.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Yeah, I've just had a light bulb moment because I was thinking about my next question as you were talking about that, and I thought, well, you know, if there was no nobody for you to pass on that managerial responsibility to after those 12 hours as they were when you were nursing, is there something lacking within organisations?

SPEAKER_00 10:47

So I I work with senior leaders now, um, executive teams, and the overwhelm, the stress, the pressure, the expect expectation is immense, far greater actually, than when I was in you know senior roles. There's just more to do. The expectation is is just so much greater. People are close to burnout. I'm not sure how that will change because there's resources are being cut, there are fewer people to do the roles, jobs are not done, expectations are not reducing, they are increasing, you know. So there's this whole mismatch, if you like, of um workload and expectation and resource and availability of people to do that. People processes, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

So do people need to find the resource within themselves then, Zoe? What I mean by that is things that you talk about in terms of things like self-regulation, being grounded, being present, being in the moment, all that sort of stuff that you touch upon. Um do we need to find more reliance within ourselves then if it's not going to be there externally?

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yes, I think that part of what I do is supporting people to grow and develop um awareness of how they can um be their best. And sometimes that is working most effectively, that is taking care of themselves. Um the greatest emphasis is working as a team, being greater than the sum of the individual parts. And of course, when people are under pressure and stress, they tend to silo, they you know, look in, they uh perhaps don't have the same capacity or ability to reach out, to work more collaboratively, to work together, because it's just do, do, do, do, do. I think working with your team, working well and effectively as a team is quite a creative um skill, you know, because you are having to adapt, you're having to learn how to get the best out of each other, you're having to find time even to be together. I work with teams and they're struggling to uh build the relationships or get the results that they're there to achieve, and yet there's no time to for connection, to relate to each other, to connect at a human level. It's all about the task and the job in hand, and and and that doesn't work. Um, so those are the conditions I guess I try to create with teams. You worked, you you mentioned earlier on about that line, my top bottom around. I work alongside teams, I partner with teams, um, and I help help help, or the aim is I help them to do the same between them with each other.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

My view is I think we get a really good service out of the NHS. I mean, there's no two, there's no two ways about it. We are blessed with the NHS. Um, and I think sometimes we lose sight of that. With some of the guests I've had on the program, I suppose one of the thorny questions has been around this reliance on state. And while, you know, I'm a you know, like everybody in the country, I um I'm a big believer in it. Well, most people, I suppose. I'm a big believer in it. Um, I think you know, we need to contribute to it. I think people need to benefit, and I do see people people do benefit from it. But do you think there is there is there is uh too much of a reliance on the state and not so much on the family and the community anymore? Are we expecting well because I hear it a lot on the media, in the media, well, the government should be doing this, the government should be doing that, the government, whoever they are, of which political persuasion should be doing more and they just can't give more. Um should there be more self-reliance on on our families, on and you know, and on our on our communities.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

My personal view is that we are a society who outsource such a lot. Now we take far less responsibility for ourselves. So actually, it starts with us. Our health and well-being is determined by what we eat and drink, the exercise we take, the decisions we make. Um, yes, there's uh, you know, family support, community support, all of that exists around us for some of us, if we're if we're fortunate enough or able, have the know-how uh to access those things. Um but generally I think in all things we outsource responsibility, uh truthfully.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

I find it I find it really interesting that in in the world of care, let's stay with care for the time being, that we train more for compliance than we do for connection. Um I've certainly found that and it drives me crazy because we're expecting people to build a connection, to identify their EQ levels, if you like, and then go in and give a talk to a stranger a shower, for instance. It happens millions of times right across the country. What's your view on that? Do you think we we we train more for compliance than we do for connection?

SPEAKER_00 16:32

I think we train for both.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Do you think we're all born with EQ? It's just how it's developed and how it's shown to us.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Oh, that's a good question. I think we're all, yes, I do believe we're all born with the potential to have emotional intelligence. It isn't always developed in people, and that's uh perhaps because of life experiences. Um, you know, that's the then it's a nature-nurture thing, isn't it? It it doesn't grow in all people, but I think the seeds of it are there at the beginning, of course. I think that's important actually to have that belief to do the work I do.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

It's an interesting, I was watching uh Simon Sinek the other day um interviewing uh gosh, I always feel very disrespectful when I can't remember names, but I've even I've looked out the chap's book uh on the on the shelf in WH Smith. There are other book suppliers around, by the way. Um anyway, they were talking about niceness versus kindness. It's a really interesting concept. I hadn't thought about it in this, and I said, and the chap who uh was being interviewed said nurses in the main aren't nice, but they're very, very kind. Would you like to just go into the weeds on that one?

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Kindness is very important. People and people confuse or use the word interchangeably, don't they? Nice, nice and kind. I think it's probably I'm more aware of it now working with leaders as opposed to clinicians. Um so I considered myself both nice and kind as a nurse. But if you're having to um well, here's an example. I worked in uh on a renal unit where children's uh their kidneys weren't functioning well, so we had to really restrict their fluid intake. You'll be familiar with this. We had to really restrict their fluid intake. Now that didn't feel nice when a child is is crying, is desperate for a drink, absolutely desperate for a drink. It didn't feel nice to say no, to restrict them, to not even allow them into the bathroom unsupervised because they would drink fluid from any source. Um that was heartbreaking, but it was kind because it kept them safe and well until they had their next round of dialysis. So there's the distinction between niceness and kind. But I so I was being kind and I tried to do that in a nice with a nice demeanour. Um we talk about being nice and being kind as leaders, and we make a very clear distinction. You can always be kind as a leader, you don't have to be liked. You want to be respected, you want to be a role model, you want to um create positive, constructive relationships, but you might have to have difficult conversations or conversations that are difficult. Um I think that's a I think that's probably the distinction. You don't have to be liked, you don't have to be best friends with those that you lead, but you always need to be kind, always.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

When you were having those conversations with parents, particularly about the mortality of their children, I imagine that your communication had to be very clear and very direct.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

And how do you get the balance with that clarity and that directness and with kindness, or are they all the same?

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Oh, that's such a difficult question to answer. I think I I trusted my my instincts, my intuition in those moments and my emotional intelligence. Although I didn't know it was that, you know. Um every parent, child, family in that situation needed something different. You know, we are all different, we all have different needs, we all respond differently to um devastating information to trauma. The consistent need is empathy, compassion, kindness. Um, and that's about being with somebody in those moments. That's not I I talk a lot about being and doing, and that's the coach in me, I think. And we were talking about mindfulness practices, weren't we, before? Um, you know, and it is there's something very special and very powerful about being with yourself and being with others.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

That clarity, uh, in terms of being really clear and the communication about a child's future, or sadly not as the case. Maybe as opposed to going around the houses about a certain subject. In your world, was that the kind thing to do?

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yes, you had to be absolutely clear because you were giving information that nobody wanted to hear, nobody wanted to say it, nobody wanted it to be the truth. And so you you had to be very clear because otherwise there was would be room for misinterpretation or misplaced hope. And that's not helpful to anybody in that scenario where you know they're taking on such very important information. So clear, clear is kind, you know, that clarity was so very important. And again, that would look different for different families as it is for all humans. You know, you have to gauge how much can how much information can somebody receive, what language allows them to understand the message that you know you're trying to share, how you pitch it, uh, your pace, whether you give uh all the information in one go, or whether you give small bits of information so that people can absorb it slowly when they are in shock and you know um not in the best place to receive such important information and sometimes devastating news. So, yes, clear clear is absolutely kind and the right approach. You have to be.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

So let's take let's take that out of the the relatives' room in the hospital into the boardroom. I take it that you know, whether you're talking about that type of very, very sad situation or something that can be equally as, depending on who you are, life-changing, let's say it's a round of redundancies or there's some sort of change happening within the workplace. I take it the rules of the game are exactly the same.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Absolutely, yes. And I pride myself in taking that approach to my work. Um, people choose to work with me because I am clear, I will create the conditions where people can speak honestly and openly. So in team coaching, this isn't sometimes it might be me offering my perspective, my experience of a situation, a scenario, or how somebody is conducting themselves, how they're behaving and the impact that has on me. But equally and more so, it is about creating the conditions where others can be really clear in order to have their voice heard. That's very much why I do the work I do now. And um I have a reputation for being able to create those conditions where people can be really honest and open and share things that perhaps they've never shared before.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Do you do you see elements of when you were younger and how you've built your resilience and how you've built your world and the people that have that have come in and out of your world over that period of time have made you the person that you are today and uh and the direction in which you're going uh in terms of your professional life and your personal life.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

So many things contribute to who we are today. But I mean, you couldn't list it on on your on two hands, could you? There's so many different things that contribute. Part of my story and experience that have led me to where I am and who I am and what I do is that I was one of six children. Um, I was brought up on a farm. I was um, you know, my experience as a child, and I was interesting, I was talking to my sister about this only last week. We were we were having a conversation about politics, and we were both sharing that we've had to learn this stuff in our latter years, really, because as children, we didn't sit at the dinner table and have conversations about current affairs. We didn't have what we would just, I think we used the word grown-up conversations. They weren't conversations that prepared us for the adult world. I mean, they were more really, I don't even know what we talked about, but it was just head down and eat and um you know get through. So I even quite recently, my my internal narrative is that I didn't have a wide vocabulary, a grand vocabulary, um, the ability to articulate myself well or clearly or intelligently. I didn't feel I had a place at the table. I didn't feel as though my voice was heard. And there are lots of things that have contributed to that actually, and it is only in my adult life where I have really been able to have my voice heard, and that's that's been successful for me. That's you know, that's been I've been able to do that well and with positive outcomes, and so I offer that to others now.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Let's say you've got somebody who's in a leadership position who's quite entrenched in their 30, 40-year career, and they've been brought up professionally in a certain way, and then younger people are coming in with a different outlook, with a different view on life, on culture, how they want to be treated in the workplace. And you've got somebody who's been brought up under that it's my way or the highway style of management. And I know that you're working with enlightened leaders, so I get that. But do you think that there is a yes, that well, listen, I'm gonna answer my own question here. Yes, there can be a clash, but do you think that the leader who's entrenched in their own culture needs to understand this new culture that's coming in and not just label somebody, I can't stand this phrase, but let's use it for the conversation. This person's a snowflake, right? Can't stand that. But to get rid of that mentality and that thinking, does the person that's the the adult in the room, just to use that phrase, do they need to understand who and what is coming into their organization?

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Yes, of course. Absolutely. Um, because that's true of all differences, isn't it? You know, we the if you're leading a team or an organization, then you need to understand who uh who your workforce is, who are who are they, what's important to them, what matters to them, uh, what culture will enable them to thrive. Absolutely, and that's achieved through reverse mentoring, where you will have um people who are quite senior in an organisation connected very intentionally to somebody who is in a very different role, and often that that's a more junior role, and they will meet for coffee, or uh those people might sit on the board and contribute their perspective at board level, you know, so that they're bringing in their perspective genuinely, you know, not a tick box, let's listen what to what the young people say, but let's genuinely hear their uh contributions, their perspectives so they can help us to work together to work through you know whatever the challenge might be. Um, so absolutely, but I I think that's true of all everybody in the workforce. We all need to understand similarities, differences, the opportunities that brings, the challenges. Um, yes, and there are mechanisms that can, you know, that can support that. Fortunately, forward-thinking organizations have got that.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

I love that about the board idea. I love it. It reminds me of something uh many moons ago that a colleague said to me, and it was said, if you want to know about the organization or the culture or really what's going on, your first point of contact is whoever sits on reception.

unknown 31:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

And and that was quite enlightening, really, um, because they are the front, they are literally the front line of your business.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

They are the front line, but they are also part of the culture. Yeah. So actually, you know, we we take the perspective um in the work I do of actually, well, you as a visitor going in and setting foot in that organization and paying great attention to what you see, feel, hear, you know, actually that's incredibly insightful. Um, so yeah, I think both sources of information are valuable.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

I'm really interested in some examples of some tangible results of your work. Um, or I'm sure you've got many. When I ask that question from time to time, that old British thing does come in of, oh well, you know, we're a little bit hesitant to put our head over the parapet to say how great we are. Uh, but I want you to forget all that. I want you to forget all that Britishness, and I'd love to just hear a couple of examples of how your workers helped um in the environments in which you contribute.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

I had a lovely email this morning from um the director of a charity that I worked with last week, and we spent the day together, and this was you know, the introduction or the brief to me was this was this is a uh a well-functioning team. We go on brilliantly. Um, this is an opportunity for us to have our annual get together, check in, see how we might be able to improve our you know how we work together. Um, and the response this morning, so it's a thank you email acknowledging the day and expressing her appreciation and gratitude for letting the day unfold. So we you know, you can go in with a very strict agenda, or you can go in and just see what emerges, and that's really where I feel most comfortable and think you gain most value. And we had some really good quality conversations. This is a team who um work in the care environment, let me say, and are kind, compassionate people, and they are kind and compassionate to each other. And we also know that teams need to express differences and have those constructive, challenging conversations. Um, and so we we created the conditions where they were able to have different conversations in the room, and and the feedback this morning was you know how useful the session had been, and that even since that day, which was Thursday last week, this director had had a one-to-one, and the conversation had been very different and so much more useful because of what they had learnt about themselves, learnt about each other, how to connect more effectively. So the outcome had been really positive. So that's one very recent example. Um I hear about executive teams who are very process-driven, who are very focused on the doing, getting the job done, paying attention to what's measured, and not paying so much attention to the relationships, how they engage with each other, and so while we often get invited into those spaces, you know, we have this team, they're high performing, but there's something missing. There's something in missing in how they relate and how they connect and how they communicate, and of course that sets a tone, doesn't it, for the culture? Um, and how their teams then work together. So lots of examples of um executive teams who build relationships to have different conversations.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Uh my final question is uh again linked to emotional intelligence, and one of the aspects of EQ is that of motivation. You clearly are very motivated in what gets you out of bed in the morning is very, very clear and very, very evident. Um if you if if you had a professional epitaph, it hasn't gone very dark all of a sudden, hasn't it? But if you had a professional epitaph, what is it how do you want to be remembered, you know, when you finally decide to you know put your slippers on and retire, which is a long way off. How do you when people are speaking about you fondly, Zoe, how would you like to be remembered? What impact do you want to make in in your particular world?

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Lovely question. Um I want to be remembered for making a difference and at on quite a human level. Um what really matters to me is that people feel seen, that they feel valued, and that they are given the opportunity to be their best. And that's what I do, and that's how I wish to be remembered.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

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