Do you have to be ruthless to succeed in business? Graham Allcott

"Kindness fuels everything. When you're kind, you win. It's as simple as that."

When my guest said those words during a keynote in Rome, the room of 200 investment bankers divided into two camps. Team Kind, and as he calls them, Team Screw Them All and Be Evil.

That moment sparked a book, an award and a mission.

Graham Allcott is the founder of Think Productive and the author of six books including How to be a Productivity Ninja and Kind, winner of the Institute of Leadership's Book of the Year.

For my money, Graham is the UK's leading expert on kindness at work and this conversation is one I'm truly proud of. We cover:

💛 Why kindness is a performance strategy, not a fluffy one. Psychological safety helps organisations achieve more, not less

💛 Why the care sector trains for compliance but not for connection, and what that costs us all

💛 What younger generations really want from work and why we should be listening, not judging

💛 Why boardrooms and policy makers need more voices from charities, frontline services and young people

💛 Tales from Holland. Graham's deeply moving piece of writing about parenting his son Roscoe, who lives with a unique chromosomal disorder, and learning to love the life you didn't plan for

Graham brings warmth, honesty and vulnerability to every answer. We got on like a house on fire and I promise this episode will leave you thinking differently about that little word that means so much.

Music: 'Spirit of Fire' - fiftysounds.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Hello, my name is Gary Robinson, and my guest on the Unmuted Podcast today is entrepreneur, author, speaker, and podcaster Graham Orcott.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

The room divided into two teams, right? So there was like Team Kind over here, and probably 75% of the room was on my team. Team Kind. And then the other 25% of people were on team Screw Them All and Be Evil. And they were saying things like, But what about Elon Musk? And what about Steve Jobs? And you know, that it was like this whole thing of you have to be a bastard to succeed in business and all this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I've got to tell you, Graham, for my money, is the UK's leading expert in kindness at work and how to increase productivity through that very little word that means so much kind.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Damn right, those young people want some other things from work. And I think we can learn a lot from uh uh you know from listening to that and and shaping work in their direction for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

He's the founder of Think Productive, it's a company that delivers training and not just any old training, it's training that results in energized teams, increased productivity and well-being, and subsequently producing leaders who are confident, clear, and people focused. I read that on the website.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

The other thing that gets um touted around a lot is why don't we have more people from business involved in politics? Um I think that's valid, but also why don't we have more people from charities? Why don't we have more people from uh who are you know uh like regularly working in homelessness services? Like we there's so many different aspects where the people who are making policy are so far removed from you know the actual experiences that that we need to change.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Graeme is the author of six books, including How to Be a Productivity Ninja and Kind, which is out on paperback in October.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Favourite child, you know, productivity ninja is probably the most uh uh probably the most well-paid child. But like but um kind is definitely the one where I feel like the most pride and the most uh the most passion for it and the most like I just want this to be in every hand.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Now, before we do anything else, can I encourage you to go to grahamolcott.com because as you hear this interview, what I would love you to do is sign up for Graham's weekly newsletter, which comes out on a Sunday. It's called Rev Up for the Week. I get it every week. It's highly recommended by Little O'Me. And I know that this podcast is really sounding a bit like an ad, but that's because I love this guy's work so much. So stick with this for the next half hour or so. It's a great conversation. I personally am very proud of it. We got on like a house on fire. He's a great guy. Uh so here's Graham, explaining how it all started.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yes, okay, so there's like three origin moments around kindness. The first was I'd been running my company Think Productive for a couple of years. We were building up a team in the UK and then starting to branch out to build up um, you know, uh a bit of a team in different parts of the world as well. And we started to have to think about culture and what are the values of this global thing, which involves people who are spending a lot of time working quite closely with each other, but a lot of those people have never even met each other face to face because they're the other side of the world. Um and so one of the values that we set upon going back quite a few years was trust and kindness are our rocket fuel. And it really seemed to describe how we were already working, but it's definitely been one of those, you know, sort of guiding principles, really, that sort of has has just really shaped the culture of the organization and how we work. So that was really where it started. But that was a thing that I never really talked to clients or other people about. It was just how we ran thing productive, and that all changed when I did a keynote, and I was talking about my previous book, Productivity Ninja, which was you know all about how how does an individual uh cut through the noise, you know, like keep keep the distractions at bay and get stuff done. So I was giving a keynote around that, and it was in Rome, and I was five minutes from the end of this keynote, and I was thinking, God, this this is this has gone pretty well. Uh in a few minutes, I'm gonna be um checking out the hotel and walking around Rome for the rest of the day. Happy days. And someone in the last five minutes of the QA just asked me this question, which was okay, we've heard all about the productivity stuff, park that to one side. What are your kind of guiding principles in how you've built your own business? And I'd never really been asked this on stage before, and I didn't really know what to say. And the thing that just popped into my head, which I talk about in the book, is I just said, Well, kindness fuels everything. When you're kind, you win. It's as simple as that. I don't really know where those words came from, but I can because I was kind of panicked in the moment, I can still really vividly remember them coming out of my mouth, right? And um, what was quite funny about it was the room divided into two teams, right? So there was like Team Kind over here, and probably 75% of the room was on my team, uh, Team Kind. And then the other 25% of people were on Team Screw them all and be evil. And they were saying things like, but what about Elon Musk? And what about Steve Jobs? And you know, that it was like this whole thing of you have to be a bastard to succeed in business and all this stuff. And what I suppose the lesson I came away from it with, and this was a room full of about 200 investment bankers, um, was number one, isn't it amazing that 75% of a room that's even full of investment bankers is on team kind and really got it. But what was really interesting was that other 25%, and it just really made me think, wow, this is so interesting as a conversation that we should have, you know, uh just more widely within business. It's a great topic for a book because it's really good if you're writing a business book to have something to sort of push against a bit, have a bit of an enemy in the book. So this idea that there were people on team screw them all and be evil, um, and this myth around the sort of business bastards just felt like a really good thing to to sort of hit against and push against. You know, so that was where the idea from the book uh came from. And then there's a bit of a personal one, which is about uh how kindness has sort of shown up in my life, which maybe we'll get onto a bit later, but that was the that was the road to Damascus if uh if everybody got to Damascus.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

I tell you where I'm at, and forgive me for sipping coffee at the same time here. Um but um you know what you were in that room, and uh obviously people were quite audible and they gave you the views, you know, the 70-75%, and then the rest. Did you actually feel the atmosphere change at that point? Could you could you feel something?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Did you know what I'm saying? Like massively, um yeah, yeah, yeah. And and also, so that was the end of my talk, and then it went to the lunch break, and I could hear people in the room still debating it. And then afterwards, you know, as often happens, you know, people come up and chat to the speaker, and I probably had as many people come up and talk about kindness, which was this thing at five minutes at the end, as came up and talked about the productivity stuff that was an hour and 25 minutes before that. So it just felt like this. I just really felt like I'd kind of um, you know, just planted this little seed and it was all bubbling, you know, as as people went to lunch, I could kind of feel it. Um and it was um it was slightly nervy, to be honest, because you know, you're brought in as a speaker and you kind of think, well, if I if a if another topic, which isn't the one I was supposed to be talking about, seems to have got half the headlines, you know, is that a problem? But um the the guy who brought me into the company I knew was very was very attuned to kindness and emotional intelligence and all this stuff, and and he loved it and he was like, Oh, that's a really great extra little bit. But part of me was thinking, God, have I uh have I totally uh firebombed my own brief in the last five minutes there? He was definitely in the room.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

I have heard you uh you tell that story, but it's great to hear it you know in person. And and just to, you know, because I've you know have had I've had the opportunity to stand up in front of a lot of folk as well in my in my past, uh, maybe not giving keynotes like that in Rome um or Italy. Um, but certainly I was really interested about that feeling about the shift in the room that you know without anybody saying anything, you know, there's that shuffling of feet, or there's a you know, that's the you know, it's I think it's an amazing story. And that that prompted the book, which was great.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Yeah, that was definitely the light bulb moment for the book for sure. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Um so tell me about think think productive. I mean, how how did it come about? Did you start it by yourself? Was it uh was it a group of people, group like a group of like-minded people that got together? How how did the the company come about?

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Well, I think it was both of those things actually. I mean, it was originally um it was uh myself and a guy called Martin Farrell, um, who I'd worked with. He was a bit older than me, and we worked together for about 10 years before that, working in charities. Um, and uh then I had a lot of energy for it, and he didn't have um so much energy for it. So he kind of stepped back from uh being a sort of co-founder, and then I was on my own for a bit, and then very quickly, probably within about two years, I struck upon quite a few people who became fellow travelers with it. So um Elena, who's now our managing director, uh Lee, who became our first trainer or productivity ninjas as we call them, and uh, and then three or four other people quite quickly after that. So it quite quickly had this very strong sense of community around it that was felt much bigger than just me. And um, that was in 2008, 2009, and all of those people I just talked about are all still here, so we're all still part of the same journey. Isn't that a really interesting remarkable yeah?

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Interesting point though, isn't it? Because I I I I talk to to organizations and I'm I'm a big uh I'm I'm a big um advocate of the care sector. Uh I worked in care for about four years, which was completely different to what I was doing in terms of media. And it was amazing what I found out in care because uh carers have that I certainly worked with had a massive amount of emotional intelligence. But yet the sector I hate that phrase for that as well, by the way, but it trains for compliance and not for connection. Absolutely. So it's all about compliance, about making sure that we're safeguarding and all the all this stuff, Graham's really important. Don't get me wrong, but there's nothing on the agenda, on the training agenda, that talks about making connection, kindness, and you're going into somebody's own space and you're encouraging them to perhaps to take a shower, to wash, take medication, to eat at a certain time, and you're a complete stranger to those individuals, and particularly if somebody's got, for instance, a dementia, which then you know makes the situation in my mind ten times worse. But we're not we're not trained for kindness. Well, I found we're not trained for kindness in the care sector. Um but yeah, that would improve performance, staff retention. We know that carers aren't paid very well, but it just goes to show, and going back to your point about the fact that you've got staff that have been what with you what decades or over decades?

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Yeah, 15, 16 years, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

And the principles of kindness are up obviously embedded in think productive. Uh so you practice preach.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

I I think so. I'm probably not the person to ask about you probably asked them. Um, you know, because uh it's always difficult for us to know what it's like to be on the other end of us. Um, but I do think that it's it's um one of those things that when when we set it as a value, the commitment was from everybody, right? So it was definitely a there was definitely a feeling that we all wanted to work in that way for sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Love your job titles uh within uh Think Productive. You've got a director of communication and connection, and if I can read my writing, uh ahead of I think it's learning and success, is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah. I love all that. Yeah, I mean, and and also that's um, you know, that really just you know, that's uh Dion, who her role is really about working face to face with our clients. Um, you know, uh so other people will go in and actually do, you know, the learning work and the consultancy and everything. Um, but it's her job to make sure that learning is happening and also that what that's contributing to is the success of those organizations, right? So we just feel like if you um put that stuff, uh I mean it's the same as if you're to get a bit productivity geeky for a minute, if you're labeling a project, if you label that project with the sort of quantified description of what you want success to look like, it just provides that focal point that you work towards, right? So we kind of just think about job titles in the same kind of way.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

I would I was brought up um in my early days in my career. I mean, I started work in 17, 18, but I I was brought up in an atmosphere of from a boss point of view, it's my way or the highway, you will do as you're told, you know, tug the old forelock, all that sort of stuff. You didn't really question authority. Well, I I certainly didn't. Um but that was the that was the work atmosphere that I was introduced to, although I loved my work, don't get me wrong, but I knew who my boss was. Do you think those times are changing now with this sort of work that you're doing? Do you think uh I mean are younger people expecting to have a voice now in the workplace as opposed to just going, yes, uh, yes, madam, three bags full?

SPEAKER_01 14:21

I mean, I think yes, and I you know, I worked in a in a few places in the very early part of my career where I, you know, what you described there would be things that I would recognize in terms of that sort of the hierarchy, and you know, um, I remember working somewhere where uh the leader was uh I think ex-army, but certainly ex-military of some uh description, and it really felt like they were bringing those kind of military ideas um to this organization, which was which felt slightly strange and and almost a little bit eccentric. Um, but I do think there's there's definitely, and I think quite rightly, um, you know, more of an emphasis on the younger the the younger generation are bringing, which is about wanting to feel a sense of belonging and purpose and wanting to feel that what they're doing is something that is worth them spending a lot of their time on. And um, I think it's so funny, isn't it? There's so many of these um the sort of memes that do the rounds and the ideas that do the rounds that are kind of along the lines of well, this new generation are all they're so entitled and they want this and they want that and all that. And actually, I look at it and I go, but pretty much everything that you then describe is good stuff, right? Like, oh, they want um, you know, uh to work more flexibly, they want to know what they want to receive feedback on a regular basis, they want to feel a sense of belonging, um, you know, they want some autonomy, they want to be able to bring their own creative skills to bear. And I mean, this is all great stuff, right? And so I think we can often get uh caught up in a scarcity mentality around some of that, which is you know the idea of well, I had it hard, so you should have it hard. And actually, I think we could we can learn a lot, especially from a generation who, let's be honest, that generation coming through and getting jobs now. I don't know if you've been seeing on uh Instagram over the last week or so these viral videos of um uh you know Eric Schmidt, the ex-head of Google, doing commencement addresses and talking about AI and getting booed by all these young people. We can learn a lot from these young people because we are setting them up uh where many of the things that we were promised and were available to us are not available to young people coming into the workforce now. They're starting with loaded debt. It's almost impossible for them to get houses without help. You know, I was very lucky in that I had zero help, but could just about, you know, scrape together money through my own earnings to buy a house. That's not available to people now. So when all of that's taken away, damn right those young people want some other things from work. And I think we can learn a lot from uh uh you know from listening to that and and shaping work in their direction for sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Do you think it'd be beneficial for organizing and I'm sure some organizations are doing it, but do you think it'd be beneficial to have um younger people on boards earlier?

SPEAKER_01 17:30

I mean, yes, and also I've got quite a lot of experience around that and a lot to say around it because one of the things I did just before starting to think productive 20 years ago is I ran the governance training for the British Youth Council, which is which, you know, I mean, people like um trying to think about uh sort of current politicians, but all the you know, the the West Streetings and the and the you know the and and and that kind of uh era of politicians all really kind of cut their teeth through the British Youth Council and student politics and and all that kind of thing. And it is a it often is a certain type of young person that goes through that and and has the confidence at a young age to do that, not always confidence that's um uh you know come from private schools or whatever, but actually just a natural kind of drive towards uh leadership stuff. Um many of them just came from all kinds of different backgrounds, but I think, yeah, um one thing I really noticed by doing that and also by then getting involved with I was on I sat on the board of the youth homelessness charity center point for 10 years. Um and one of the main things I did while I was on that board, I was the youngest person on that board. I think I was 28 when I joined the board. I was probably the youngest person on that board by about 15 years or so. I don't imagine maybe maybe more when I joined the board. And I watched the board slowly get younger as I got older. Um, but I also helped Center Point to uh bring about a thing called the Center Point Youth Parliament, which is about bringing bringing young people who had sometimes months before had been homeless on the streets, and now they're sat there in a board meeting with you know very senior bankers and you know, the patron of Center Point is Prince William, and uh, you know, just moving in a circle that would just be so alien to them in any other way. And the sort of cultural learning from that in both directions was just absolutely huge. So I think we do need more of that. We need to open up, you know, governance and um, you know, and the the voice of younger people into you know boardrooms and you know, and and sort of expose senior decision makers to that. Because I think you can have, you know, I've I can think of a couple of clients, you know, where uh I won't say what industry they're in, but they're in an industry where everybody ends up being quite privileged, and you just get the sense that they can go years without talking to someone who isn't really in a very similar lifestyle and financial position to them. And I think that's I think that's a worry. I think we need to uh open these things up and um you know, show and and I think that will that, you know, for me will really help people to sort of think in a re in a much more humble way, I think.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

I think it'd be really cool if you and Rory Sutherland were uh hired uh by number 10 uh just to do some real I hate the word consultation as it were, but just to sit down with a couple of decision makers and go. Because it it you know, I listen to you and I listen to people like Rory and and other other people who aren't necessarily in positions of power, but talk so much blumming sense. And to me, it's like the obvious Adams book, isn't it? It's like I suppose it's well down to political will.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah, I think so. I mean, um, yeah, I have to say I've never met Rory Sutherland, but um that's I take that as a massive compliment that you'd uh lump me in with him in terms of his his thinking. Um I think I am due to meet him at something uh towards the end of the year, actually, but that's another story. Oh, that'd be great. Um yeah, I I and you know, I think it the other thing that gets um touted around a lot is why don't we have more people from business involved in politics? Um I think that's valid, but also why don't we have more people from charities? Why don't we have more people from uh who are you know uh like regularly working in homelessness services? Like we there's so many different aspects where the people who are making policy are so far removed from you know the actual experiences that that we need to change um and and some of the and some of the problems that we need to fix. And I think that for me is uh just a big frustration. Like it's just it it yeah, it it really frustrates me that there's there are so many people who have ideas and who who really care, but it they just They get swallowed up somehow by the system, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Um I I get in my inbox, I think on a Sunday evening, or it's there for a Monday anyway, Rev Up for the Week, which is your newsletter. I was like, Sunday 405, it goes out. Yeah, 405. Brilliant. I love it. It's highly recommend it. Um because again, it's that it's that we dose of right, okay, up and atom for the week, um, which is really good. Uh what didn't come with that, but it came up in the research, was um some writing that you've done in your blogs, and there was one that hit me really hard and and left me with a lump in my throat, and that was Tales from Holland. And that was a piece of writing that you'd done that was in connection with your son Roscoe. Um I mean, I'm I don't want to no spoilers on this because I want people to read it um without giving too much away. But it was a fantastic, it was a fantastic piece of writing, obviously from the heart. What what what prompted that? I mean, it was it was very it wasn't raw as such, but you were very honest and open in it. Um and I think there was some to me it was um there was an element of bravery about it. What what led you to write that piece without giving too much away because I want people to read it?

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Oh thank you. I mean I I feel like I should explain why Holland and uh and all of that. So I so I will give some spoilers um because it's quite a it's quite a long piece. I'm really proud of that writing. I've never been asked about it in an interview, so um thank you for picking it out. Um so that came about because I should start at the beginning. So my son is unique. Lots of people say that about their kids. Um, but my I can prove it with Rosca because he has a unique chromosoma disorder. So there's literally no one in the world that they've found that has the same uh genetic makeup as him.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Uh so he has a what's called a trisomy mutation, um, and it's a mosaicism, which means it doesn't occur on all of his chromosomes, but on some of them. And so to cut a long story short, uh we've just done seven spinal surgeries in the last three and a half years. He's had 10 operations uh by the age of 12. Um and uh he has developmental delay and autism, and you know, his life's pretty challenging. Um, he's also a massive inspiration around the work I've done on kindness because he's the vessel for kindness, right? So the beautiful thing about uh parenting him is that everybody around him wants to make him smile, and he's he's really kind of positive, and and you know, his outlook on life is so positive that he's got this kind of sunny disposition, and everybody kind of loves to be around him. But it means that everybody shows up, you know, to his old school, they'd bring their old sort of Thomas the Tank Engine comics that they've sort of grown out of, and he still just loves trains and Thomas the Tank Engine and all this, and so he's this vessel for kindness all the time. Um so that's you know, that's for me like he's just such a huge privilege in terms of uh in terms of um you know being his dad because I just get to witness kindness all the time. But the thing about Holland, so Holland was this um there's this poem called Welcome to Holland by Emily Pearl Kingsley. And you know, over the years I've I've been put in touch with lots of people whose kid gets diagnosed with a rare chromosomal disorder or gets diagnosed as autistic or uh finds out their kid has some kind of special educational needs. And you know, it's like, oh, Graham's been through that. Like, can you help? And I'm always really happy to help. Uh, but the first thing I do is I always send them this poem, Welcome to the Holland to Holland. And the idea of it is you are uh packing to go on holiday and you're going to Italy, right? And you're sort of imagining going to see the Colosseum and you know, going to see the Linear Tower of Pisa and all this stuff. And and then um when the plane lands, the uh flight attendant comes on the PA and says, Welcome to Holland, and you're like, but this isn't what I planned, you know, and you've you've learned the language for Holland, for Italy, and you've got the guidebooks for Italy. Um, but actually you're in Holland, and so it's this really weird, indescribable thing where on the one hand, uh you are grieving Italy. So, you know, Roscoe is in a mainstream school for his entire primary, and I think he got invited to two birthday parties, I think. And then you watch all the other kids, all the other parents know each other because they're going to they're on the birthday party circuit, right? And they're, you know, they can take their kid to the school disco and I can't. And so there's this whole like world that's going on, and they're all in Italy, and then you're in Holland, which is a different world, and so you're grieving Italy, and then at the same time, you start to realize that like Holland has its own beauty, right? So it might be a bit less flash than Italy, but there's Rembrandts and windmills and tulips and all this beautiful stuff, and that really was something I'd been thinking about for a long time. Um, but in COVID, the interesting thing about COVID was every it was the first time everybody else was also in Holland, right? So it was this moment where everybody was grieving the parallel reality that they thought they were gonna have, but they weren't having it because we were all you know grounded in in many senses during that time. Um, and that's really what the piece is about, and um it really kind of flowed out of me when I I just made this link and it just kind of flowed out of me, and it's and it's quite long. Um, it got an incredible reaction when I put it out there. Uh, it did feel very brave because I've probably spoken, you know, in in sort of Q ⁇ A keynotes and stuff about about the experience of parenting a kid with with um high needs uh before. But like I'd never really written it down, and I was very conscious that I don't get once I put that out there, and I put it out there originally I think it was on Medium, but once you put it out on one of those platforms, it's not really yours anymore. Like it's it's gonna have its own legs, and so I had to really think quite hard about the the person who hates me the most in the world or the person who wants malice for me in the world, is gonna read that, and they're gonna read the the personal vulnerability within it and stuff, and maybe use that against me. So I kind of had to be aware of that. I'd probably about a year before I had that had an experience with a stalker. Um and so that was in my mind when I was putting it out there. So it felt really brave to press send on it and put out that out there into the world, but it really did touch a nerve at the time, and um yeah, I'm I'm proud of it. So yeah, thank you for bringing that up.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

How is Roscoe these days?

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Is he uh well I was just gonna say at the end of that, which is maybe the answer to that question, I love Holland, like it's um, you know, so you can grieve Italy, but um yeah, he's a gift every day, man. And um, yeah, I'm still uh yeah, very in love with Holland. He's he's just started a uh a school in September. So we've gone from being in mainstream school and kind of being surrounded by Italy all the time to being he's now in a special school for secondary and is totally surrounded by uh by Holland. And so I he never used to let me go to his Christmas plays um in the old school, and with this school, he did. So I went to his Christmas play at Christmas and I came back, and uh my partner was like, How is the Christmas play? And I was like, It was batshit, like in the best possible way. Yeah, because you've got all these kids who are just like, you know, they're really anxious, and uh one of them's just you know, just stands up in the middle of it with his headphones on, is like peering round, and like it was just everything that a normal you know, mainstream school uh Christmas play would not be, but it was all the better for it, and um yeah, just experiences like that are just um it just always really makes me smile, all that stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

See what I'm curious about, right? I'm curious because this is an audio podcast, by the way. So, you know, I I very rarely do the visual stuff, although I've done one recently anyway. That's another story. But behind you, behind your shoulder there, do I spy um a turntable? Oh yeah, I do. What do you stick on there?

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Um tell me tell me about what's in your collection.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Well, I got records down here. Um we've got a bit of uh Idris Mohammed here.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Oh wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Not a few with that word, but it's um called Florence Adoni, which is uh sort of uh African electronic meets funk meets uh other stuff. And uh yeah, um yeah, so I uh one of the things I don't talk about very much is uh my alter ego is I'm also a DJ. So that's um just uh a thing that I do in Brighton. Yeah, and um the particular thing that I have sort of fallen into is uh organizing uh a Sunday afternoon day party. So it's like once a month and it's uh multi-generational. So we literally have like three or four generations show up and dance to dance to everything from jazz to funk to drum and bass.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Is it outdoors? Like an outdoors gig, is it?

SPEAKER_01 31:45

In the summer it's outdoors and and then it's in Brighton, and then in the winter uh it moves indoors. Yeah, it's called Brighton Sunday if anyone's um in the Brighton area and wants to look it up, so it's once a month. Um, but yeah, it's a thing that I I started with a friend of mine a couple of years ago, and I'm so I'm one of the resident DJs for it, and we DJ out at a few other places around town.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Well, it's not Norman, but yeah, because it's always been a big fat boy slim and all that, is it? No, Norman Cook and Fat Boy Slim. Well, he's the same, isn't he? He's that's not his neck of the woods, is it?

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Oh, it totally is, yeah. So um yeah, I've met him a couple of times. I don't know him uh at all, really, but um yeah, you he's around all the time, so you do just bump into him. So you just be at some comedy thing at the dome, and you're like, all right, Norman, he's like, All right, and uh he um yeah, he goes to a lot of the Brighton matches as well. So yeah, he's just he's just kind of everywhere around Brighton and he's a bit of a bit of a local hero for sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Yeah, I love all that. And the fact and when you sort of the DJ and you sort of you're sort of mixing, you know, uh, you know, yeah, music and so on. Yeah, brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

And yeah, so some of it's vinyl and then some of it's C DJs, so you know just stick your USB in and you know it sort of does does a lot of it for you. But um, yeah, it's all about DJing's all about the tunes that you bring rather than the technical skill these days, really.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yeah, it's quite cathartic, is it?

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Is it you know, once you if you've had a busy week, you just lose yourself in that I mean it's my it's my happy place, music generally, you know, whether I'm watching live music or um you know clubbing or DJing, like just just being around music is just an absolute joy for me. Like uh I used I actually used to sing in a homelessness choir as well, like as a volunteer um a few years ago. Uh so yeah, I've got quite a long history with sort of music of all kinds, but um yeah, when when I'm kind of DJ mixing, it's like that's my flow state. Do you know what I mean? It's like the thing that the two things that really make me get in a flow state one is writing, and the other one is like mixing and what records next, and like what journey are we taking people on, and all that. Like, I yeah, I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Oh brilliant. I'm loving this interview. We're nearly there because I'm I'm conscious of your time. And the the interviews that I know that are going that from my point of view go really well, go really quickly. So just to get towards the end, what's next? So uh you know you're very accomplished. Uh you what what do you think you, your organization, you know, the team, what what's what's next? You're spreading the word of uh kindness to humankind, to businesses, uh to individuals. What's what's next on the on the quest if there is one?

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yeah, it's a funny, it's a funny question. I had um so I know the comedian Josie Long and uh had coffee with her when she was in Brighton um a little while ago, and she asked me that question. She was like, So you've just done kind, right? And so and the thing with kind was at that point it just won it won uh the Institute of Leaderships Leadership Book of the Year. So it won these two big awards, including Leadership Book of the Year. And then Josie's like, So what are you doing next? I was just like, Well, I just need to do lots more talks and tell people about this. And she was like, Oh yeah, that's such a comedy question. What's next? Um, because obviously, if you're doing Edinburgh comedy shows, you you know, you sort of there's a whole rhythm of the year to that where you sort of build up, you do a one-hour comedy show, you put the whole thing in the bin, you start again, you get to the next August in Edinburgh with another hour comedy show, and then you know, that's kind of the rhythm of um creativity. Um, and actually, I think for me, with Kind, it's kind of been like it's been quite a sort of slow burn of a book, really. So it got it did really well when it came out, like good sales figures when it came out. Then it sort of lulled for a bit, and then it's really picked up again, and the interest has picked up again um in me coming into organizations and speaking about it after it won that award. So it won this Leadership Book of the Year award. Um, and so I really feel like I'm still surfing the wave of that, really. And I always used to say that I think people who do the kind of job that I do, which is, you know, uh, some people would call it thought leader. I think that's too arrogant a thing to say about yourself. So I would just call myself an author and speaker. Um, but I think people generally people are either more comfortable being an author or more comfortable being a speaker, and it's very remarkable that someone is equally as talented and equally at home in both. Yeah, and I am definitely more of a lock me away doing the writing, and you know, the author part of it is the bit that is my comfort zone, and then the speaking. I think I'm really good as a speaker, I've been doing it long enough, um, and I get you know very good feedback when I'm doing it. But it is the thing that feels very out of my comfort zone even now, like still, I still get really nervous. I still, if I'm doing a keynote on a Thursday, um, I my calendar is dead on the Friday because you know, literally nothing. Um, because I just have this adrenaline dump. You know, I can only really do, I can only really be out there doing like two to three client engagements a week. And if I can get away with it being one, then I'm happier because it just takes it takes a lot out of me. Um, and what I realized, my own kind of self-awareness was every time I'd finish a book, I would start to go out and do the speaking around it, and then I would very quickly retreat back to right, what's the next book? And it was just like it was like a comfort blanket because it's like, oh, if I'm writing a book, I don't need to be out there doing so much of the talk. But of course, it's really you know, it's really the the speaking that pays you any money. The the books don't really um, even when you have a bestseller, you know, you know, if it's a business book, you probably don't make um huge money out of it even then. So um yeah, I've really had to sort of hold myself to that with this book, that it's like there is no like the next is carrying on with kind and you know, kind for leadership, getting it out there. And if I start to go, what's the next big idea to focus on? Then really I'm sort of doing kind a disservice. And I realize that I'd done that with some of my other books. It's like I'd sort of abandoned the follow-through on the books, the speaking and the workshops and everything else too quickly. So um, yeah, I try and just not ask myself what's next, to try and keep to try try and keep to, you know, really what's next is taking this, taking these ideas from kind, which really is all about helping organizations to develop psychological safety and collaborate better. And it's a it's a performance-driven message um with kind, you know, it's not about it being fluffy, it's about organizations being able to step up and and actually achieve more because they're kinder, kind of cultures and kind of environments. Um, but there's an awful lot of businesses that are A, interested in um exploring this and doing this work, and B where I where I just know it's it can really help. So I just yeah, I want to give it as long as um as long as there's that interest there, I want to kind of keep that going really. So that's that's what's next.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

My very well, I'm in two minds now whether to ask you this question because it wasn't prepared, but yeah, and you should never have a favorite child. Like you should you should never have a favorite child. Um, but if you know I suppose you know where I'm going with this, out of all your writings, um and if you were willing to share, um do you do you have a secret favourite child in in those books?

SPEAKER_01 39:36

It's funny, isn't it? So uh so Productivity Ninja was my first book, and I wrote that in uh 2012-2013, um, which is a long time ago now, and that book has uh opened up a lot of doors for me and really helped the business expand. People still write to me about it saying, Yeah, I really love that thing in Productivity Ninja. So it's had this like huge impact. Um, but it's a little bit like you know, when George Michael left Wham and he went solo and um he wanted to release songs like Jesus to a child and faith, and everyone still wanted him to sing Club Tropicana, right? And so it feels like that to me, where you know, I I pick up Productivity Ninja, I mean very rarely, but when I do, I'll start to look at the writing in there. And the writing, honestly, like the ideas, cool. I think a lot of the ideas in Productivity Ninja are still equally, if not more, valid today as they were when I wrote them. But the writing, I look at it now and I just think, oh my god, like I'm so embarrassed by my writing. And I think that's good. I think we should all be embarrassed by our earlier work, and we should all be able to see a kind of you know tangible development in the skill level of what we're doing. So um if I'm asked favorite child, you know, Productivity Ninja is probably the most uh uh probably the most well-paid child, but like but um kind is definitely the one where I feel like the most pride and the most uh the most passion for it and the most like I just want this to be in everybody's hands. So the paperback of it comes out in October, and I think that's a big moment because you know, when a book's in hardback, it's you know, it's 20 quid. It's a it's a big ask for people if you like if you don't, if you're taking a punt on a book, and I think to get that down to a tenor, which is what will happen in October, is uh yeah, it's a moment I'm looking forward to because I really feel like there's there's a lot more people that and it also just makes it easier. A lot of people buy kind to give it to people they work with, either people who they're they're sending a message of I see you, you're a kind person, or they're sending a message of please see me and understand me, and can we be a bit more like this? Um, and again, gifting it becomes easier when it's a 10 and not 20 quid. So um, yeah, I'm looking forward to uh to to hopefully spreading that one much further in the next few months.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

This is a podcast curated and produced by Unmuted.