How To Burn Your Team Out, with Brett Sams and Michael Hasson (Ep 1)

Michael Clark (Mr Growth) and Ward Sheehan (Mr Ethics) discuss the easiest ways to burn your team out and how to not do that- while trying to decipher the problem all while having a profitable business. 

Some of these issues are also brought up or answered by our guests in this Episode - Brett Sams (The Self Care Zone) and Michael Hasson (Complete Health Group).

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the show, Ron. I'm Mr. Ethics, the good guy in the industry, and uh this is Michael, Mr. Growth.

SPEAKER_03 0:06

I'm the bad guy in the industry. There we go. And today have we got a show for you? We've got good stuff coming out, don't we, Ward?

SPEAKER_02 0:11

We do, mate. We've got heaps of stuff coming up. So many people to talk to about good things in the industry, bad things in the industry, and all in between.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

Welcome to the podcast again. I'm here with my friend Ward. My name's Michael, and we're here to have a bit of a chat. What are we going to be talking about, Wood?

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Oh, I'm here to talk about ethics in the NDOS space, mate. Um, and that's what that's what I'm all about.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

Okay, and I'm here to talk about not going broke in the NDOS space, and that's what I'm all about. So there's a bit of a clash that happens when you start talking about okay, what's good for these people is not necessarily good for those people. Uh, and that's what we're gonna explore. What are you most looking forward to today?

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Mate, I'm looking at how we can explore to to meld the two together so we can work in an ethical framework, but also be profitable at the same time. Love it. Everybody, welcome to today's topic, how to burn your team out. In the industry that we're in at the moment, people are wearing so many hats, doing so many things, overworked, underpaid for what they're doing. That's the space we're working in.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

True. And that's not even the directors. Because I know directors who are earning less than their less than their support workers, and and they're burned out too. And so the idea of how do you burn it how to burn your team out, well, you can burn your team out by what? What are the things that it that wear a team out?

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Too many hats we're doing too many roles like uh BD, uh rostering, intake work, all in the same person. Why aren't you getting referrals coming in? Why isn't this person being on boarded? The shift's being missed here. Too many files to put out.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Yeah, it's pretty hard to enjoy your work when your work is chopping and changing. Okay, I get that. All right, we're going to special guest world now. Let's see, who do we have today? Today, Ward and I have decided to call in an expert. We've called in Brett that from the self-care zone.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Okay, Brett, you you work in the behaviour support space and you're there supporting people. And as we know, the NDIS don't give out a lot of funding for for these sort of things. And you get to the end of someone's plan, but they're still going through a bit of crisis and need a bit of support. Where do you stand on actually giving them the materials to actually support them to get through to that next stage?

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Do you go home mid shift or do you actually like stay beyond the call of duty and do free work? Like is that what you're saying, Wood? Pretty much, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

So as a behaviour support, you've got the option of the you know, if there's behavior support funding, the specialist behaviour support funding, and then the behavior management funding. But also too, if you're running out of funding, you can go to the support quarter and say, Hey, I've got this little crisis coming up for the family. Can we take a little bit of funding from core supports, say 10 hours to get through? I'll provide these strategies and this work to get them through while we're going for a plan review.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

What happened? We all know the plan reviews take forever to get through. Yep. And and someone else might be saying, well, those core supports are uh for for wards home services that provide support on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

I think the question's going down the path, Brett, whichever way we want to take out of, are you going to work for free if it comes down to it?

SPEAKER_01 3:22

I have done a couple of times.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

A couple of times, like 1% of your working life as a BSP or 0.1 or 10%. Like, what are we talking about?

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Uh, so I had a client this year who is on the pace system where you go the family have to go into the NDIF portal and say, we allocate behavior support funding to this service. And they hadn't done that, but there was a crisis where they needed it. So I went and did a home visit, which was 40 minutes away, plus the hour and a half for the home visit, plus the 40-minute drive home, where I couldn't bill for it. So would you do that again?

SPEAKER_03 4:00

Like where do you do the one?

SPEAKER_01 4:02

If they need it at the time, then and there's no other options, then yeah, I'll do it.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Do you get paid later for it or you just don't get paid for it?

SPEAKER_01 4:10

You don't get paid for it.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

So it's like a it's like you go to, you know, you you crash your car and you go to the insurance to the panel beaters, and then they do the assessment and they go to the insurance company, oh, this is gonna cost eleven thousand dollars to fix. And they go, Yeah, okay, here's the funding to go do that, but then they didn't assess that properly, and it's gonna cost fifteen thousand dollars. Well, they can't go back to the insurance company and say, Hey, can we have another four thousand dollars to cover this? They've just got to find a way to cover it. The insurance won't pay it.

unknown 4:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

So if the funding's there and they haven't actually allocated that funding, can't you access that at a later date?

SPEAKER_01 4:54

You can. What you can do is you can backdate your your uh notes to so to show that you attended on the 22nd, 7th of June, but funding wasn't available until the 30th of August, and you just backdated that way. If that's been approved by the family and support coordinator. You're right.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Okay, so how often would you accept that as normal? You obviously do it as a one-off for a family because you care about them. How often would you accept that as normal? And then where would you draw the line, and then how would you communicate when you're drawing the line?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

I've been doing behaviour support for almost six years, and I think in that time I've done maybe five home visits that weren't paid. Um, just because the funding wasn't there, there was a crisis and was needed. Um, but I think it's also important to say, hang on, what are the guidelines for the company that you work for that say when you can do this? Because otherwise you're just gonna get taken advantage of. So you need to go, well, the company that you work for needs to have guidelines around do we do this or do we not do this? And stick to those guidelines.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

And and you work a lot with businesses in the self-care zone. How many businesses do you speak to that they have their staff working for free in various aspects because they're fun the participant funding's run out?

SPEAKER_01 6:18

I've spoken to a couple of the that do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

And where do you stand on that, Pratt? Like if that was 50% of your your work life, you'd have a problem, right? Is it a problem at 10%? Is it a problem at 5%, is it a problem at 1%? Where do you stand on that?

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Um, I think it depends on what your costs are. If you can weather that storm for maybe a week or two, you're kind of pushing it beyond that, where you know you want to stay profitable so you can continue to provide the supports that you are. Because if you haven't got that money backing you, uh a business that doesn't make a profit is a closed business. If you're not gonna charge if you can't charge, you can't then make a profit for it.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Okay. So in in five or six years, you've done this five times. If this had been let's imagine in the next six months, you're you're called on to do this five more times. Where do you stand on that?

SPEAKER_01 7:18

I'm not sure I would.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

Um because I flat out wouldn't. But I'm not you and I'm not Mr. Ethics over here. Like, what what what what factors go through your head?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

The risk to the participant. Um but then also to is there like is the funding coming? If the funding's not gonna come, then you you're not gonna do it either.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

But are you gonna do it if it's a high risk for the individual to or the the staff that are working with that individual?

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Well that also comes back to the staff, the the company that that staff works for. What are their procedures in terms of this? Do they um you know, what's the process? Do they call an ambulance whenever something escalates? Uh, which most places will do? Do they, you know, have an extra person that they can call in and have three people on the shift when they need to? Um does Oncall then step up and go, hang on, I need to go and cover a shift.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Yep, but are businesses putting themselves at risk if they don't have those BSPs in place?

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Um, and and the potential of a higher worker comp bill and all that sort of stuff. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 8:32

I think I I think if we want to call a spade a spade, I think it's off the planet that we work in a government-funded industry where it's normal for people to do free time. I just think it's bizarre. And I think that a lot of people are are foolishly stepping into a trap set for them of giving free time because oh, the system's not providing. The system could be providing, they're choosing not to. So the more you enable that system, the more you're just giving the government its budget cuts by doing free free work. I don't see how it helps anyone. I don't see how it solves the system-wide issue. If you've got an individual who's got a problem, like you're saying, you could call an ambulance, but I don't see why anyone should be abandoning their own family to go and provide support for someone the government's deliberately set systems up for in such a way that the money can't be accessed. I just think that's baffling. I don't understand why. And like Ward, I know to you that's like, well, what Brett's doing is the right thing to do. I get that. But as Mr. Growth, I'm like, I don't think Brett's doing a good job for anyone because it's not good for him, it's not good for his family, it's not good for the the system doesn't need to change if people like Brett just keep rescuing it, rescuing it and stuff like that. It doesn't, it doesn't take away from the fact that Brett, you're doing a great thing by that. But I I I just don't think it's right. You know, that's just where it stands on.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

What about the individual that's behind all of this that that needs these things in place to actually live a life?

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Well, what if I have a hamburger shop and you're hungry but you didn't bring your wallet? It's the same thing. I'm not going broke. Very good blokes. You you you'd see me. I would do it for you once. I wouldn't do it for you a second day. Uh would like because at the end of the day, people are responsible for their own funding. And in the same way, people in in this industry, we act like we're serving people. We're actually here working for the government. The government's what pays us. And for as long as we allow the government to not have to pay you for your services, we're facilitating this. Now, I'm not saying as a provider I didn't sometimes work for free. I did, just like you do, Brett, just like we all do. But I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying I'd be willing to do it at the level that I used to be willing to do it. You see, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

That's insane. So what what are your thoughts then when the NDIS do a plan review without speaking to the individual and then cut the funding?

SPEAKER_03 10:44

Well, I think we all know our thoughts on that. We're like, what the hell? How is that even legal?

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Like But then also to take that a step further. You've you know the practitioners have supplied the evidence to say the work they've done, the plan there for the next um the goal for the next NDIS plan. But then the NDIS has come out and said, but they don't read those reports anyway.

SPEAKER_03 11:06

Yeah, I know. They literally said that the head of what? Yeah. What one, how could that be true? Two, why would you say that if it was true? Yeah. Three, what does that mean for every document that they're paying people to do? Like we all feel b b baffled by it.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

As like a functional capacity assessment from an OT can cost, you know, five, six thousand dollars, but you're not going to read the report that they've done, so what's the point of paying for it?

SPEAKER_03 11:31

They could have skipped getting the report done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

That's right. And I want I'd love a burger, mate. But the thing is too, the people that they've got in the NDIS doing these plans aren't trained professionals. They're they're not an OT or they're not a um psychologist or they're they're not in that that uh industry. They're they're more of an admin person that's ticking a box and and making sure that that every step is taken to to get through the the plan review. They're essentially a customer service role.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Yeah. Yeah. Wouldn't that be like someone designs a bridge that goes over a river? And then me as a non-engineer turns up and goes, nah, nah, you've done it wrong. Nah, we're not paying for it. You're like, but we spent all the money on the engineer to design that. It's like, nah. Trust me, nah. Is that any different or am I missing something?

SPEAKER_02 12:28

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

But that's the system, that's how we're working. It's crazy, guys. It's crazy. But again, we we as Mr. Growth, we're like, hold on, well, what can we control? What can we do? Let's do that, and let's not even think about the stuff that's outside our control. We're not even we're not responsible for the decisions NDIO makes. We're just responsible for doing our bit well. So glad to get to introduce you to Michael Hussen. Michael, what do you do and why do I think you're famous?

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Well, I'm an outlight health manager in Sydney. Uh we provide services in the home to older people and young disabilities. We're mainly in the support at home space, formerly home care package. Um but our NDIS clients are growing. Um I just have a huge concern about providers. I mean, in in my business, I'm metropolitan. All my staff live you know beside the beach or in the inner west of Sydney. They love their you know, fresh avocado and coffee and all of it, smashed avocado and all of this, so they've got lifestyles and all of that, and it's just kind of trying to you know keep the you've got rising costs but decreasing revenue, and when those two lines meet, you're like, Why am I doing this anymore?

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Um Yeah, you that's a conversation I think I've had with people uh ten times in the last month that they're saying to me what you're saying. Like, hold on, how am I supposed to win? It's like you're trying to play Monopoly, and the amount you can charge when they land on your property's gone down, but the cost of property skyrocket, you're like, I don't I think I need to play this in game.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

So what would be your advice to people finding themselves in that spot?

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Well, I guess like I I'm not there's I don't think there's a clear answer here. Uh what to do. Like, I guess in terms of business models, you've got to be lean and mean, you've got to kind of strip out all the fat. And um I mean, in terms of like in terms of my business is mainly physiotherapy. So I don't have a commercial lease, I'm not leasing a building, and thank God I'm not, because if I was, I mean, that's a huge cost. Um, so we do get to put that kind of revenue into staff through um podcasts and or not podcasts, through subscriptions and and vaccinations, parking permits, all things like that. So my advice would be really to try and kind of get your business to a more lean model that's sustainable in the climate that we're going into.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

Okay, big thank you to our special guests, and uh we always appreciate the guests who take the time to come and have a chat with us because we don't know all the answers, but we're open to learning from people. So I guess anyone can get together, Ward, and be like, oh, we should be nice to people, okay? Which I mean, that's more your job than mine, if we're honest. It's like, but the uh the the thing that people pay me to do is to not let them go broke. So what what happens with the whole short-term versus long-term don't burn your team out, but uh, how do you how do you have revenue for payroll day, you know?

SPEAKER_02 15:22

It comes not from the mo. What happens is if if you have the right people doing the right jobs, everything will run smoothly. What's wrong with getting a bit of AOI to support those people in the roles to to reduce their tasks for that day? To to support them to actually do the right thing by the individuals.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Well, that makes sense. Okay, so what what do you see uh good teams doing with AI to prevent their teams getting burned out?

SPEAKER_02 15:50

I think what you need to do is look at every specific task and see what the the gaps are in that uh work role, and then uh try and work out how to best support that person to fill those gaps with with a bit of AI, whether it's a virtual assistant or if it's a uh a software program that supports AI through that that system.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Okay, that makes sense. So I remember years ago I had a staff member who was like the worst speller I've ever seen. We bought him Grammarly, and I think it was for 20 bucks a month. Grammarly stopped him embarrassing the heck out of us, okay. I guess your AI could be that simple, or your AI could be a lot more complex. You you can have you know ChatGBT basically writing emails for your junior staff, okay. But how does that stop people getting burned out? Because I mean, all that happens is that people become more productive, is they get increased demands put on them. So how's that the solution?

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Well, I find if you get it more streamlined with what the the tasks are that we need to be doing in the industry, then we can we can make their their role more drawn out for the day. It's it's able to be planned for during the day, and you get an odd spot fire that comes through that you need to to put out or to to look after. But if you've got things in place to support those people, if there's a spot fire, then you know that everything else is going to be taken care of as well.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

All right. Maybe that works. I don't know. Here's one for you. Okay, Mr. Ethics. How do you handle it when a staff member turns up who's performing at an average level and says, hey, I haven't had a pay rise for six months or 12 months? And we sought that. What what are your thoughts there? Because you don't want a burnout team, but the reality is that lack of pay is a factor in people taking time off and burning out.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Well, I think you've you've you'll have evidence to say that they're not performing at a higher level, and you can discuss that role with them and say, look, maybe in in three or four months' time we'll have this conversation again. But you need to meet these KPIs to to do that.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

Fair enough. I wonder how that would go down with some of our 22-year-old BDMs who are immune to negative feedback. I mean, how do you have that conversation?

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Well, I still think you have that conversation. However they take it is up to them. But you need you need to have that conversation with them. You can't just say to them, sorry, you're not meeting those roles, see you later. You need to give them the opportunity to to rectify their behaviour.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

Yeah, that makes sense. Fair work would have some words about if you didn't follow a process, I guess. But coming back to this, really, if we were to play the roles, like obviously you and I live in a normal world where we live a balanced life, but if you were to only advocate for staff welfare, and let's pretend I was to only advocate for business growth, why is there such a clash here?

SPEAKER_02 18:34

I think that every person is an individual. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Like I know I'm a morning person, I can get so much done in the morning. Whereas come two, three o'clock in the afternoon, I start to flake and I I don't do my best work at that period of time. So if I had my ideal world, I'd start work at seven o'clock in the morning and finish around about two, two thirty, three o'clock in the afternoon before because that's my optimum time. Whereas you might start work at 10 o'clock in the afternoon and go right through six. That's your optimum time that you can get the best out of you. Why why can't we do that in this industry?

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Maybe we can. I don't know. I know plenty of support workers who'll uh send a text. Sorry, my alarm didn't go off. Um how are things going there at the seal house? Uh yeah, good luck with that. Okay, so you're talking about not burning people out by giving them hours that work for them. That makes sense. Okay, and just being real with you, my perfect hour starts at 5.30 in the morning. Uh and you're talking about basically treating people with honesty, like we were talking about if someone hasn't earned a pay rise, they haven't earned a pay rise. Here's the thing that goes through my head. Even if someone has earned a pay rise, I don't see how they can be given a pay rise lately. When was the last time support coordinators were paid any extra by NDIS? It's like six or seven years ago.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Yeah, yeah. And this is the thing we're working in. We need to value the people that are working for us, but how do we do that? When we don't have the scope to actually increase the wages for them. And with the cost of living kicking going up and up and up, cost of fuel going up and up and up, cost of rents and uh mortgages going up, how do we how do we how how is it sustainable?

SPEAKER_03 20:17

You're trying to get more out for less input.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

Alright. Well, I'm sure, Mr. Ethics, you've got thoughts on that. All I know is that we're all going to lose our best staff in the next year or two if something doesn't change massively.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Well, I was just talking to a support coordinator this morning who's feeling burnt out in the industry and she's looking at leaving to go to another sector because she feels more valuable in that. She can earn more money and doing less responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

Well, if the only thing I'm thinking of is growth in this caricature that I'm playing right now, I'd be I'd I would encourage her to do that. It makes no sense to stay in an industry where they can't increase your wages while your mortgage hasn't got cheaper, your petrol hasn't got cheaper, your food certainly hasn't got cheaper.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Yep. But what are we doing to encourage people to stay?

SPEAKER_03 21:07

Well, I wouldn't be encouraging people to stay. I'd be encouraging people to do what's right for them.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

But then we'll get people that aren't suited to this industry to come in just because there's a s uh a labour shortage and they'll be using the disability sector as a stop cap to what they do instead of actually being in it for for the right reasons.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

And how's that any different, Wood, from the childcare industry? Because the childcare industry, you've got completely underpaid staff who there's no incentive for equality people to want to join that. The only people who join that are people who just love working with kids and they're poorly paid, so they stay for a while, then they go and get a good job somewhere else because they've got a mortgage. Really, that puts us back into that sort of category. And we it it means we'll have that level of staff.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

And you look at the the turnover rate with support staff, you look at the turnover rate. Over rate with support coordinators. You look at the turnover rate with team leaders at the moment, BDs, that you always see on LinkedIn Ward starting a new role with ABC support coordination. Six months later, what's starting a new role with GEF support coordination.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

It's true, isn't it? Jumping to jumping to next one. Yeah. Alright, so Mr. Ethics, what are you proposing as a solution?

SPEAKER_02 22:28

I think we need to look outside the the the normal of what what is deemed of the normal in this industry. I think people should be in charge of their own calendars in to a certain degree.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

I know a lot of support coordinators are in charge of their own calendars, trust me.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

But but also too in in a way that suits the best for the individual that they're supporting as well. So if you've got an individual that has a stakeholder that works retail Monday to Friday, nine to five, and you set up a stakeholder meeting on a Wednesday afternoon at two o'clock, they need to take that whole Wednesday off just for that meeting. And nine times out of ten, it's cancelled because the physio can't get there, or the OT can't get there, or well the SEAL provider can't get there. So that person misses out on a thing. Whereas if you could book it in for a Friday afternoon or a or a Saturday morning where it's available for that person to be part of that person's input, then why not do that? Give the support coordinator a bit of time off during the week.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

It makes sense. So basically you're you're arguing, Mr. Ethics is arguing for flexibility for people to do all things, flexibility of their shifts, just being organized, stuff like that. Yeah, that that meeting sounds like a nightmare before we even start because it's not going to happen anyway. You know, like you're saying. Okay, and then if we can't increase people's pay, where does that leave us? I mean, what's the ethical approach there? Give them a piece of cake. Like, how do we have a future if we can't increase people's pays? And what's wrong with coffee and cake me? Well, I don't know. It doesn't pay my mortgage. I can't stick it in my car. It probably wouldn't work out so well if it did.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Probably not. But the the thing is, it's all about how you treat your staff. Like, it's what why do people leave a job? It's because of the person above them that's looking after them 99% of the time. It's not because the company has great or has terrible ethics or values or a work culture or anything. It's it's how they're treated in that in that role that they're working in, whether they feel valued or not. If you can make someone feel valued and they can pay their way through life, they've they've joined up with that role because they know exactly how much the pay is, they know exactly what shifts they need to do, what what work needs to be done. So then not no one's being forced to to do this role that they're going into. If if they can have someone that supports them to do that role, then they'll probably stay.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

That makes sense. It makes heaps of sense. And from a a growth perspective, I think part of this how to not burn your team out or how to burn your team out is put the right people in the right spots. Like there's a lot of a lot of people, like in this industry, they'll start out on with with as support workers. Next thing you know, they're so-called managing other support workers. Yeah. Where the hell did you learn to manage people? You didn't. All they are is glorified rostering machines, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Or or the person's been there the longest, so therefore they're the team leader.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

And that's nuts because leadership skills or management skills or even rostering skills are different from the skills it takes to be an awesome support worker. And I mean, when was the last time you saw a person in their early 20s who came pre-packaged with those skills? Yeah. It takes years to learn that. So I I I worry that we're causing a lot of burnout by putting the wrong people in the wrong spots. And that happens because it's either that or the director steps in and does it.

unknown 25:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

And the director doesn't have time to do that because they've got to look at the whole business as a whole. Yeah, the director's trying to work out how they're gonna do payroll next week.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Yeah. Because their payments haven't been paid for the last six months from the NDIA.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Yeah. Or because after six months they'd already be gone. Or it's because they're uh they haven't even got the invoicing done because they've got such rubbish systems for invoicing and the systems are slow and they're waiting on playing minute just to actually hit reply to an email. You know, good luck with that. I I don't know, it's a hard industry, but what we can't do is burn our team out. For you, you don't want to see our teams get burnt out because that's not really ethical for me. Same. But also, I don't want to see our teams get burnt out because then we don't have a team, and then without a team, you can't make money. Do you know what I mean? Like you you're done.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Exactly. Yeah, and you need to be sustainable in this industry to provide that continual service to someone. And that's and how do you do that if you're advertising for staff every three months or every six weeks or whatever? Because all that money costs ten times to onboard a new staff member and to keep someone.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Yeah, it's like we're talking thousands of dollars to onboard a new staff member. But you put the C C out on, what's that, four or five hundred bucks? Then don't quote me, but something like that. And then your own internal staff time to train them, that's so much time to do shadow shifts, only to lose them anyway, because to be honest, they were only half-hearted because the money they they make isn't really worth it for them unless they're hitting those penalty rates. It's a tough deal. It makes me worry about the future of the industry, but at the same time, childcare centers still run. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

And it takes three or three at least three months to get used to a rot new role anyway.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Until then, you're just treading water. Exactly right. So, Mr. Ethics, let's go. All right, if Mr. Ethics was going to propose one solution that says obviously staff burnout's a multifaceted thing. Let's pre- one thing one action step, what would it be, and then we'll see if Mr. Growth has got one.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

Okay. So what what Mr. Ethics would like to see in this industry to support staff not to burn out is have the right tools for them to access. The the the right people in the right roles, not wearing too many hats. I think that's probably the three things that I would make comment on that we need to do in this industry.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

And how would you suggest people do that?

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Or there's there's providers out there that actually support people on how to uh have self-help um within not burning out. Uh have the right tools, the right programs, the right software, the right equipment to to actually do it. Um and the right people in the right roles. I'd be terrible at rostering. Because I'm not not that's not my forte, but if I was linked with B D, fantastic. But if I had those two roles together, BD would be far outweighing the rostering component. And I'd be letting everyone down doing that.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

Uh what time is it? Oh, time to go and meet our special guest.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

All right, so Brett, what what would you do in this situation? So you you're trying to balance boundaries and and well-being without putting it in a too hard basket. Right? And especially over a long weekend or or like over a public holiday or or or things like that, and you get a call from someone that's quite difficult and you know that it's gonna um take quite a few hours to sort out. So people just put it in a too hard basket and try and fob people off, or how how do you find it in?

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Yeah, I think sometimes they might, but also too, if you're there on Encore for the weekend, you go, Well, I'm getting public holiday rates for this. I can take a bit longer than I have to to get this done. I get more knife myself.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Yeah, but um but I'm having a barbecue with my friends and my family that have come over to the long weekend and his phone keeps ringing.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

I don't think I don't think Orde, you're getting it. Two and a half times the usual rate. Barbecue, let it burn. We'll like we'll order dominoes, we're fine. What are you thinking, Brett?

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Well, I'm going back to something that I experienced where I had to call my own ambulance on Easter weekend. I had a dislocated knee, and when I called on call to let them know what was going on, I actually got abused for it because they had to go and find a replacement for me at short notice. So, you know, you've got this, you know, potentially difficult person calling you, but you know, I've I've then got to go and call all support workers that are available in the area to see if they can go and fill in for a three, four-hour shift rather than viewing it as I need to get this sorted so that the person is safe.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

There's so many layers on this. Everyone gets paid the earth, they're gonna say yes. Sweet. I mean, did you use your knee to phone the ambulance? Is my next question. Three, why is someone hassling you for asking them to do their job, which is to organize a support person? None of this makes sense to me. Nope.

unknown 30:59

Mr.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Anderson makes sense to me either. All right, so what's our take on this? For me, I'm like, why is this an issue? What what's what's going through your head, what?

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Well, what's going through my head is we again, we've lost the sense of why we're here. Like we're here to support people. And whether or not that takes five minutes or five hours to sort out, that's what our role job role is, and we need to be there for our staff and support them through through the times that they're going through, whether it's good or bad, and we need to to be there for them no matter what day of the week it is.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

That's all well and good till you've stuffed your knee and you can't get someone there, and people don't want to get paid double time. Um that that's a bit tricky. I I I see that these things they come in multi-layer. Okay, like that that guy who f you phoned and he didn't want it to be his problem, like he's probably got his wife telling him, Can you stop working? Like, this is we're supposed to be at the in-laws' place, and you're there with your sore knee going, um, I don't have a lot of options here. I need to solve this. What's the procedure? You're trying to follow the procedure, and then the other support workers, well, find me a support worker who answers their phone anyway, you know. So I don't know how we win this. Like, Brett, what where do we stand on this one?

SPEAKER_01 32:14

I think it's important to remember in their situations that your product is the support workers. If they're calling you in you know on the floor with a dislocated knee, they need your support. Your product needs your support. Your job is to support that product to provide the quality service that that participant reserves.

SPEAKER_03 32:37

So the bottom line is your middle manager didn't do his job.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yeah, well. I was gonna say, do you do you think, Brett, that the larger larger organizations sort of lose their sort of reality in regard to to on-call and overtime and and all that sort of stuff, where they just say to their managers, you need to minimize your calls, you need to to to reduce the overtime, and um we're we're only gonna pay you a certain amount for those weekends.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

I don't think it's necessarily just the big organizations that do that. I think a lot of services are trying to cut costs, and you still got to pay that person to be on call because they've got the the the phone. But I think it comes down to the leadership of the business that determines whether they're supported to, you know, go the extra mile and and be that on-call person. Because like there are large organizations out there who, you know, following an incident, seem to not reach out when they need to, but then you've got small organizations who then, oh, that's not my job. I'll pass it on to someone else. But as I said before, that your product is your support workers, you need to support them.

SPEAKER_03 33:50

Hmm. That makes sense. Well, I think let's call this one what it is. It's a crap storm that happened because someone obviously had a bad day, but they had a bad day and they're allowed to because the system let them have a bad day. From Mr. Growth's perspective, is like, well, fix the system, make sure everyone knows what their job is, and make sure everyone knows the procedure. How hard would it have been for that guy to just get someone else to come in at double time? Easy, everyone's gonna say yes, and also like Brett, yeah, good luck at the hospital. Like, solved, you know, it's it's like Mr. Ethics, where do you land on this?

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Well, I think it comes down to to self-care for the staff member, the person you're supporting, and also the the individual that's on the on-call. Like they might have had 50 other phone calls from staff that just haven't turned up because everyone went away for the long weekend.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Yeah, drama. All I can say is drama. Fix your systems. They they need Amy Gray. Amy Gray is a system fixer. There are times where you think that there is a heavy weight on you when you are running a business. How do you carry that weight? What do you do, Michael?

SPEAKER_00 34:56

I totally get that, and uh, I'm going to answer your question. I was gonna comment about first, like we used to we would take family holidays back to Ireland. I would work until I got on the climbing, I'm on the steps on my phone, sending emails, having to switch the phone up. And then I would arrive in Ireland and I just had a work brain, and it was just like I'm walking around for seven days like Joe Biden, you know, not really present. And I'm just like, you know, you're not you're it takes me seven days to kind of completely switch off from that and actually be present and be yourself. So I think you need to have so it might not take other people seven days, it kind of takes me seven days to completely just remove myself and be present, and it's a sad way to live not being present. So I guess it's self-awareness, it's knowing yourself, knowing what you need to do to switch off, be present, have that downtime, and it's a constant balance. Um, I I think you need to make a point of doing those things that work for you. So I go for a one-hour full-body massage once a week, it's a non-negotiable. I don't know when I'll do it, I'll do it when my work and family life suits. It's not the same time each week, but it's like, okay, there's an opportunity here to go for this. To the point where one time I went, like, Selena came back from work and she was absolutely exhausted. I I was hammered at work all day, and I'm like, oh my god. And she came in the door complaining of a sore neck, and I was like, I've already booked the appointment and a physio. She obviously wants me to give her a treatment, and I'm like, Oh well, I'm off, and I just I just went straight out the door, left her there for an hour, and I was I was getting this jibber jabber on the way out, but when I came back, I had more to give, you know. So you might some people might say, Oh, you're so shelter, you're so selfish, you should have stayed. But had I stayed, I just would have been an able. I just would have been angry and I wouldn't have been the right person. But I went and I came back like energized and able to give my cup was full and I was able to give more. I love that. Uh take uh take the hit. My brother, my brother-in-law says, take the hit.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

What planet is at Ward where people are happy to give us their time like that and just jump on this show. Thank you so much. Wow, that makes sense. Okay, got it. And then I guess if I was looking at this with just my growth hat on, right? A business growing, I'd say that if if I want a team to not burn out, I have to give them the tools, which is what you're saying. Give them good tools. You don't ask a plumber or an electrician to fix someone's house without giving them A-grade tools, do you?

SPEAKER_02 37:30

No.

SPEAKER_03 37:31

And yet we've got staff members using Excel spreadsheets to do rostering. What the heck is that? You know? Uh so there is so much that we can use tools, we can use automation or whatever for in the admin where you can't charge billable hours anyway, it makes sense. But really, I'm like, until a business fixes its systems, the staff will inevitably burn out. Because it's your systems that that keep your expenses low. Okay, if everything you're doing is oh, it's a brand new email instead of a template, if everything you're doing is text messaging into a phone, that's a very slow way of doing it compared to just copying and pasting from a template on on your computer on the net that sends out a text message for you. I think it's like the solution to staff burnout is have enough profitability that you can look after your stuff. And a solution to that is to make sure your systems are actually efficient and effective. Yeah. Oh, we agree on it. I didn't think we would. How round's that? All right. And this episode, Mr. Ethics and Ace to Growth have come to an agreement. I like it. Good work.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

That's how it should work in this world, shouldn't it? Business and ethics should be together.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

Well, this was an experiment. We didn't know when we first started doing these podcasts if we'd end up with highly divergent perspectives or or or whether we'd come to the same conclusion. I think we've come to a conclusion. Obviously, there's a lot more to staff burnout than this. But I think it's very reasonable to say that if you want to solve staff burnout, you can do that in a way that's profitable and looked after people. That would that be accurate? Yeah, 100% agree. Awesome. See you in the next episode. Cheers, mate. Well, that was certainly one of my favorite shows. Again, Ward. Uh thank you, Mr. Ethics from Mr. Growth. Uh, what have we got next week?

SPEAKER_02 39:18

Mate, we've got a heap coming up, and look, it's gonna raise some eyebrows, the stuff that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

It's gonna be incredible. Okay, let's hope it doesn't give people nightmares. Let's find out in a week, yeah? Cheers, mate.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

See you then.