Episode 13- Caroline

In this episode of the Grief and Gratitude podcast, Caroline shares her deeply personal journey of love, trauma, and resilience. She recounts her relationship with her husband Jonathan, who has bipolar disorder, and the challenges they faced when he experienced a severe manic episode that led to a life-altering accident. Caroline discusses the emotional turmoil of navigating her pregnancy during this crisis, the birth of their son, and the subsequent challenges of adjusting to their new reality. Through her story, Caroline highlights the power of love, support, and the importance of mental health awareness. 

This podcast is dedicated in loving memory of Declan Shaw ONeil and Jennifer Lynn Barry <3 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Grief and Gratitude Podcast. We are here today with Crystal and Caroline. I'm going to hand it over to Crystal so she can introduce our guests.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Yeah. Hi everyone. We are here again for episode 13. We are speaking with a very, very good friend of mine, Caroline. We met over 20 years ago in a college course and have remained very, very close friends over the years. And Caroline is here today to share her story. Caroline, good to have you here. Feel free to get started when you're ready.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Thank you. Well, Crystal already knows my story. We've been married now for, well, since 2019, so I guess almost seven years. And we met in December of 2014. So it was almost 2015. And we dated for, you know, a few years and and got married in 2019. Just while you were there at the wedding. And I so so Jonathan, I knew when we were together before, of course, getting married, that he was diagnosed with bipolar when he was in his early 20s in college. He had his first uh depressive episode when he was first went to college. He went to Berkeley and he had to go home because he he just was too depressed. And that was the first sign that they realized he might, you know, was bipolar. And then he had a manic episode in New York when he was visiting cousins. And so I knew about those episodes, but you know, since we were together, he was medicated and had done a lot of therapy. And when you met him, when you meet him, you would never know that he was bipolar because he managed it really well. And when we were together, he never had any episodes. Um, and so it felt, you know, it's a it's a difficult thing for someone to have to experience, but it felt like it was really well maintained. And I'm a therapist, and so, you know, I at the time when I first met him, I was in grad school getting my master's in counseling psychology and in-depth psychology. And so I was very well versed in this stuff and you know, have a great deal of empathy being a therapist. And so I felt like his diagnosis made me love him even more. And even though I was concerned and worried, you know, about having children, it's can be hereditary. I still was not willing to not be with him because of it, of course. So that's a little bit of the backstory of his bipolar. As I said, we got married in 2019. We had an amazing honeymoon in New Zealand, also in 2019 in November. And it was just like the most amazing honeymoon you could ever imagine. We're there for three weeks. We did the most adventurous things. We went bungee jumping, we went, you know, ziplining, we just did all these amazing things. And then when we got back, you know, life got more serious. I got pregnant, which was very exciting. You know, that's what we we wanted. And we got a puppy, and we were moving into a new house, which was, you know, more money. And so Jonathan and I were both working really, really hard. I remember I was working Saturdays all day just because we wanted to save money and you know, get ready to have the baby and all the changes. And I Jonathan started getting really stressed out in a way that I'd never seen him before. And now looking back, there were a lot of signs, but at the time I just thought he was anxious and stressed. Um, but it got it got really bad, and there started to be pretty clear signs of paranoia leading up to the the accident that I'm gonna tell you about. Um he we were signing a new lease with this landlord, and he started getting paranoid about the landlord, thinking that they were trying to scam us in some way. He didn't want to sign this paperwork. You know, there were just lots of signs like that. And in retrospect, I it was so obvious, and I should have done something about it. Even then the night before his accident, he was he was really, really paranoid. And we had plans to go see his psychiatrist together that I think it was it was a Friday night that that I'm talking about, and we were gonna go see his psychiatrist together on the Monday. So I just kept thinking, okay, we'll hold out, you know, till the Monday and we'll talk to his psychiatrist. We both had busy, busy work days that Saturday. Um, I had eight clients in a row, which is like, as you know, so much, like the most anyone should ever have, probably too much. Um and then I rem remember I had a um uh training after that. So I was supposed to go to a seminar, and so I was really busy. But that morning we woke up and I could tell he was not in his right mind. But he would go in and out of being in his right mind. One moment he felt like really manic and I was concerned, and then the next minute he would talk about our dog and needing to take the dog for a walk. And I felt like, okay, like he's got this. He's okay. I have to go to work, he's gonna go to work. I told him, just keep checking in with me. I'm gonna keep checking in with you. And again, in retrospect, I should have just immediately taken him to the hospital. But I went to work and he did as well. And then throughout the day, in between clients, I kept checking in on him and realizing, like, wow, he's not himself. Something's really, really wrong. Um, and you know, I was scared and I told him at one point, just come. He went to his parents' house a few times. He kept going to his parents' house, which was near my office, my work office. And I said, just come come to me, come to my office. And he said, Okay. And then I was waiting for him and he never showed up. And I was terrified and called his parents, and his dad said, you know, he was just here. I don't know where, you know, where he is. And then his phone was shut off. And I've never been so scared in my whole life. Like I knew something bad was happening, but I, you know, was hopeful that that I don't know, I that he maybe he took himself to the hospital. I I just I didn't know, but it was I was really scared. And so I finished my day. I didn't go, I finished all of my clients miraculously, but then I didn't go to the training and I went home and my best friend came over and I just kept calling and calling, and it kept going straight to voicemail, and it was so terrifying. And I was crying and talking to his parents on the phone and sort of screaming and crying and just being like, I don't, I'm so scared. Like, where is he? What's going on? And eventually got a call. His parents got a call from the emergency room, and then they called me, and I was hopeful that like he had turned himself into the emergency room because I knew that when he had his manic episode back in it when he was in his 20s, that he did go to the hospital and he was, you know, he was okay. And so I was thinking, okay, hopefully that's what happened. And then I talked to someone on the phone in the ER, and they I asked them, like, is he okay? And the woman said, Well, he's talking. And I just remember thinking, what does that mean? Like, well, of course he's talking, you know, and just so scared. And so his dad, I think, came over to pick me up and we went to the emergency room together. And I'll never forget, I mean, it was just the most awful time I've ever experienced in my life. It was also COVID. So this was March 2020, March 7th, 2020, which I don't know if you guys remember, but that week soon after is when the shutdown happened. So this was right before the shutdown. So I was also, keep in mind, pregnant and just terrified of COVID, but also just so distracted by what was happening. But there were so many people in the emergency room, and I was just just couldn't have felt more awful. It was so scary. And they were making me wait. You know, I got there, we got there, and we're like, you know, what's happening? We we need to see him. And everybody was just kind of looking at me like in a like they were nervous for me to find out what happened. I remember one of the ladies said they called him something. I forget. They made up some different name, it wasn't his name, but then they said the trauma unit. I was like, what's trauma mean? Even though, of course, I know what the word means, but in that case, I was like, what does that mean? And I was just panicking, and people were not giving me what I needed and not telling me anything, and I had to wait for way too long. And eventually they said, We're gonna send this the social worker down to talk to you. And so I was just like, What's happening? And finally they did, and then they explained to me that, and this is really hard to talk about, um, even six years later. Um, but they told me that he had jumped off of an off-ramp on the freeway. And he was, you know, likely paralyzed. I don't remember exactly what they told me, but something along those lines. And I just remember falling to the ground and crying, and his dad was like, What? You know, we were both just in complete shock and like just so distraught. And I said, But that that can't be. I'm pregnant. Like, what? No, I'm pregnant. What? It just didn't feel real. And I remember calling my parents immediately and telling them what happened and saying, My life is over. And they were saying, No, it's not over, you know, and we'll jump on a plane. They live up in Northern California, so I live in LA, and it's an hour flight. And they said, Okay, we're heading to the airport right now, we'll be there. And then I saw Jonathan, they wheeled him in. And I mean, I don't want to even get into the details of what I saw, you know, it was just so hard to see. And he seemed like he was in his right mind at that time, and he was just kind of crying and saying to me, like, I'm so sorry, I ruined everything. I ruined everything. I'm so sorry. And, you know, I just felt like so much love for him and just hugged him. And um, again, you know, still really unclear of what's happening, and everything happened so fast, it's hard to remember everything. But then they had to wheel him into surgery, and he had multiple surgeries, and I just remember waiting. Well, also, one thing that really stuck out in my mind is that his mouth was really dry. He couldn't have any water because he had to go into therapy, and so he just was begging for water and they couldn't give him any. They were giving him like wet sponges or something. I don't know. He couldn't have any liquids for surgery, so that was awful to see. And then they wheeled him away, and I had to go sit in the waiting room of the emergency during COVID in just shock and fear. My I called one of my my best friends, and she or no, she was already with me, I think. I can't remember, but she one of my friends waited with me, and you know, we were there for hours, and different doctors and nurses kept coming in and checking in on me. I was pregnant and I didn't want to eat, you know, but they were telling me you really need to eat. And my friend went and got me food, and I was just trying to take care of myself, but it was so hard. And then I remember finally going home because they said, you know, he's gonna be in surgeries, he's gonna be out of it, like you need to take care of yourself. You're pregnant. So I went home, my parents, you know, got there, and um, then I tried to get some sleep. And I just remember saying, like, to the doctor or whoever was gonna call me when he was out of surgery, like I left my phone on and they called me. And you know, a lot of those memories is are are sort of hard to remember. That, you know, that was kind of that part of the story. And then I remember actually I think before I forgot to tell this part, which was just so horrific. Before he went into surgery, he asked for me. And so I remember going up to see him. A doctor came down to get me, and going up to see him, and you know, he just looks so upset and just of course, like how could he not be in pain, excruciating pain? And I had to sign some paperwork and remember asking one of the doctors, like, is he gonna ever gonna be able to walk again? And you know, just like not believing that that was true, like ha having, you know, wanting to have hope, and and they were saying the guy said, No, it's it's very unlikely, and I maybe a f less than five percent chance. Um, and I just could you know, just couldn't believe it. It was so unfathomable to me. And so then I I had to go back down to the emergency or to where I the waiting room where my friend was, and I got lost in the hospital. And I just remember walking in these hallways, like these blank, you know, white walls, hallways, no one was there, and trying to find the elevator and like just feeling like I was in a complete nightmare, like the worst situation of my life, which I mean it really was. And so then finally, you know, I went back and found found my friend. But that that part really stuck out with me because an already bad situation, and then I was lost and alone and just so scared. And then, you know, the days after that were just really, as you can imagine, he was so many surgeries, so many calls with the doctors, you know. I was obviously in the hospital every day with him trying to figure out what to do as far as one of the really big so he fell when he fumped, he fell onto his legs. And so his legs were just completely shattered. And also I want to say, because a lot of people when they hear, just when they hear that he jumped, they assume that he wanted to commit suicide. But I think it's really important to to clarify that he with his bipolar, he was in a complete psychotic state. So he was not himself, he was not in his right mind. And he did not, I mean, people you know I've talked to after the fact are like, well, but he jumped and he knew he could could die. So he did want to kill himself, right? But he he didn't. He thought that he did it because he thought that people were after him and that he was gonna be killed, and so he was trying to escape these people, whoever they were, and so he just wasn't in his right mind. And when he woke up and came to, he, you know, felt so regretful and so obviously like not what he wanted for his life, but he was grateful to be alive, and I mean, you know, I, of course, was really grateful that he was alive. It was a miracle that he was able to survive that. And I'm trying to think, I mean, there's so much to the story.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Everything so go ahead. Caroline, if you want, because I believe from your story, right, there's there's kind of layers to it, right? With even being pregnant. But just to settle on what you just said, I think is really important for people that do not have a good understanding or grasp on what psychosis is and the reality of mental illness. And it's hard for people to fathom unless they have like a direct link, right? If they if they've seen it, right? Where we can understand someone who has a medical diagnosis or our need that makes sense, but it doesn't necessarily make sense when it when it's a mental illness, but that that's what it was. And I want to be sure those listening and knowing you so well and knowing Jonathan, like I do, this is a man who so much loves you and loves the family you two have created, and what has really stuck most with me is the power of love. Like even in that moment of being in and out of his state of mind, that he asked for you and that he gave for you was really beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Well, and I think too that as you were saying, people that don't understand it, that Caroline did, and even though she knew he was diagnosed with bipolar, that she still wanted to be with him, and I think that's pretty amazing too.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Yeah. I, you know, I really loved him and I still do, of course. And you know, there was it was one of those things where I just couldn't imagine my life without him, and I didn't want to not be with him, and so but of course, one of the biggest parts of grief here is that I imagined, even you know, despite his diagnosis, like we still had a normal life leading up to this, beautiful life, and we were so excited, you know, being pregnant and moving into a new house and you know, having a puppy, and there were so many things that we were excited about. And I'm someone that, you know, is always been romantic and like dreamy about like finding my husband, and you know, I've wanted that my whole life. I've searched for it. And the one of the hardest parts was just like that dream felt like it was shattered. Um and when it first, you know, happened, I couldn't imagine having a normal life at that point. It felt like I said to my parents, you know, my life is over. Like the the dream that I, you know, was imagining for myself is over. Um, and I'll get into that, I think, a little bit later more about how my life is now. But I want to add the part about my son. And so I uh when the accident happened again, it was March 7th, 2020, and my son was not due until October, supposed to be October of 2020. You know, just so that during that time that when Jonathan was in the hospital, I was able to see him for about a week. And then the shutdown happened, and they would not let me see him anymore. And it was just absolutely horrific. You know, he's alone in the hospital and I can't see him, and no one can see him. And so that was a huge, you know, part that was really hard. And then COVID, I had to move into the new house on my own, and again, COVID, so no one could really help me. My parents were supposed to um come in to help. They were on their way to help me. They were driving from Northern California. About an hour into the drive, they got a call that they had been exposed to COVID, and so they couldn't come. So they had to turn around because I was pregnant. Of course, they can't risk me getting COVID. And so they had to turn around. And I had one friend, luckily, that was able to stay with me and just help me. Because, you know, I had other friends that were either, you know, they were worried that they could have had COVID or been around it, or I had a friend that just had a baby, you know, all my best friends like wanted to be there for me, but they literally couldn't. And it was just, I mean, as you can imagine, just so, so hard. Again, you know, people on this podcast have described when you wake up and you just can't remember, like, is this real or is this a nightmare? It feels like a nightmare, and you just wait, you wait for it to wake up and hope that it's gonna end, but it it doesn't. You realize, like, no, this is real. It's that's just such a hard feeling every morning to wake up to that. But so that, you know, all that hardship, Jonathan in the hospital, then he was in they moved him to a rehab facility, and I didn't see him for a whole two months, I think, because of COVID. Um, yeah. And then I remember when he finally came home, you know, it was just so hard. Like so everything was just hard, adjusting to his new life, you know, in a wheelchair. And I, you know, I was I was trying to to manage taking care of him, but also taking care of myself being pregnant. Remember, it was really hot, you know, it was summer and just having breakdowns, just like melting down like a toddler, like screaming and crying, just in such despair. And because of all that stress, my water broke at uh 29 weeks of pregnancy. But when it happened, I didn't realize that that's what it was. And just so, you know, couldn't think that that would be possible. But I was gushing, gushing, you know, water, and I thought I just peed in my peed in myself. Okay. But I remember then I told my mom and my sister, and they were all kind of concerned, of course. And the next morning I emailed my doctor, and the doctor in the morning called me right away and was like, you need to come in right away. So I went in, you know, and thinking like I just parked my car in two hours, thinking, okay, I'll just they'll tell me, they'll do whatever they need to do and then send me home. But it ended up being that my, you know, it was amniotic fluid and that my water had broke, and I was at 29 weeks, and I again was just so shocked, couldn't believe that that was a even a possibility. And COVID, again, so no one, you know, no one can really be there. And I I was worried about Jonathan. I remember saying, like, no, again, like, no, this can't be because I have a husband at home that I need to help take care of, and I have a puppy, and like, no, my car's in two hours, you know, just wanting to will it away. Um, they were like, sorry, but you have to stay, you're staying here in the hospital until the baby's born. And this was July, and the baby, you know, wasn't supposed to be born until October. And so I had no idea, you know, that babies could survive at such, you know, such a young age. For me, it felt like if the baby was born, it wouldn't wouldn't survive or it wouldn't be possible, um, or wouldn't be healthy, you know. So I was just terrified. Then my one of my best friends was able to come and my husband was able to come. And they were there with me. And I stayed, I was in the hospital for a whole week before they eventually had to wheel me in for emergency C section. And that, you know, in itself was just another extremely traumatic event. I was asleep in the middle of the night, and I woke up to just about like it felt like 10 nurses and doctors. Um, It was probably fewer than that, but it felt like so many people just rushing into the room, waking me up, ripping off my clothes and wheeling me into surgery. I was just, I remember begging them, like, please, please make sure my baby's okay. Like, is everything, you know, asking them, is everything gonna be okay? And I remember praying to my grandma who had passed a long time before, but um my mom always told me, you know, anytime it has to do with babies, pray to grandma because she had nine children herself and loved babies. And so I prayed really, and she was, you know, she was Catholic, so I I'm not religious myself, but I prayed really hard to her and I said, please, grandma, like whatever you do, I just need my baby to be okay. I just need my baby to be okay. And then next thing, you know, I woke up so out of it, so in so much pain. I'm just like screaming in pain because I think the anesthesia, the local anesthesia after my C-section didn't work or wasn't working well for me. And so I was in so much pain, but right away they told me my baby was okay. And he was three pounds, nine ounces. And yeah, I mean, he's now just for the listeners, like he's okay, he's healthy, he's now he's five and a half, really healthy. Like you would never know that he was born as early as he is, and you know, talk about gratitude. I'm so, so, so grateful for that. Um, but again, you know, just a really, really hard time. And I remember at that time when the first day after he was born, you know, he had to stay in the NICU for two months as well. And but that first day, just crying in the hospital bed, and my best friend was there with me, and she got in bed with me, and I remember just saying, like, I can't handle this. Like, and at that time I still didn't know if he was gonna be okay. Like he, you know, they said at the time he was healthy, things were okay, but you just don't know how you know your three-pound baby is gonna develop. And so I remember saying to my friend, um, I I I could handle this if Jonathan's accident hadn't happened. Like, if Jonathan were here and healthy and standing by my side, I could handle this, but I can't handle this on top of everything. And just crying and crying, and um, she, you know, held me in bed, and she's such a dear friend. And so then, yeah, two months, you know, visiting him every day in the NICU, and Jonathan and I both would have to take a handicapped Uber to the hospital because I couldn't drive after surgery, and Jonathan couldn't drive, and so it was just a whole ordeal with COVID, and but we got through it, and here we are.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

It's amazing for you to say the fact that Jude is five and a half blows video of him dancing in the afternoon. He was so, so little, and he really all of four pounds. I mean, he just developed beautifully, and it really did about gratitude. It's so amazing that he made it through. Can you tell us a bit about you know what life how you got here? Like what is is life like now? How have you created your world in a way that's meaningful to you?

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yeah. So life, of course, was really hard in the beginning, but thank God for Jude, our baby, because he was such a healthy, happy distraction. And, you know, even though the NICU was hard, it gave us purpose every day. You know, we'd get up, we'd go there, we'd spend all day. So that structure was really good for us at the time. And, you know, his the early, the early, you know, months, well, Crystal came to visit and help as well, which was a lifesaver and just so healing and helpful. But yeah, just because of COVID as well, you know, we were home. And so that gave us the time to adjust to Jonathan, you know, being in the wheelchair and heal from all of his, you know, from the accident and the surgeries and everything. And um, that was just, yeah, that was a time where we were able to just be together and focus on Jude. I think he he brought us so much joy in those early years, and he still does, of course. But that, you know, that he just became the focus, and we were able to spend the time together at home because of COVID. And so, in some ways, even though COVID was awful, it was being able to be home, all of us together was a blessing in disguise. And then, you know, I'm I have my work, which has always been really meaningful to me, and I've continued to do it the entire time. I remember still working right after Jonathan's accident. I don't know how I did it. I took some time off, of course, when I had the baby, but my work has has helped me and having, you know, just amazing friends and family as support. And, you know, of course, Jonathan went to did, you know, physical therapy and rehab, and um his attitude has been absolutely amazing. People always ask me how's he doing. And, you know, I have always said, all things considered, pretty well. He's never, you know, fallen into a depression since everything, which is really surprising and, you know, hard to to fathom. But um he is he has a good attitude. And, you know, I mean, of course, he's takes his medication and he hasn't had any episodes since. And so he's been stable in that sense. Um, it's been a huge, you know, huge life change, of course, but there are ways that we've been able to maintain a somewhat normal life. You know, we we try to just do as many things as we can. First trip we took, well, we've we've taken a lot of like small trips, you know, traveling to local places. But um, we went to Hawaii a few years ago for my 40th birthday, and that was really special. And just learning all the, you know, ways. There's things that we didn't know on that first flight that, you know, we'll we'll next time we'll know. Learning how to to manage everything with him being in a wheelchair. Um but I would just say, yeah, I mean, his attitude is is what makes it work. I would, you know, if he were angry or I mean, not to say that we couldn't work through that. And of course he has his days where he's um, you know, he's he's sad and he's he's he's in a lot of physical pain. His legs, um, he meant he has to deal with a lot of pain. Things are, you know, of course, still hard, but we just really try to to move forward and do do what we can.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

So I've I've never heard your story, and I was gonna say how inspiring you both are, because it's not the life either of you thought was gonna be when you decided to get together and get married and have a child, but you're still together and you're still pushing through, and you have this beautiful baby, and it's just amazing.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Caroline, can you um tell us how you know I know Jonathan? I met him before, right? A few times and met at your wedding and after. So I have seen Jonathan throughout, but would you say in terms of your relationship his you talk to right his his good mood kind of in personality, but has that changed much? Your connection, would you say, you know, what you went through together, did it make you stronger? Did it what did it require for you two to go through such so many changes together?

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Right. Yeah. I mean, of course it's made us, you know, closer. How could it not? Like we're we've been through so much together. And every time, you know, even after there were a lot of other things, you know, nothing of course as big as those things, but we've we've had some other difficult events, and every time, you know, we just kind of look at each other and say, like, oh my God, we've been through so much together, you know, and the love is always there and we're always supportive of each other. And it's yeah, I mean, it definitely makes us closer. It's not, you know, it's not easy. I'm not, I don't want to make it sound like everything's, you know, just oh, the you know, it's love and rainbows, and you know, it's hard. It's our lives are harder than they would have been, obviously, if this hadn't happened. But I have to, you know, I have to just believe in the depth that we've grown because of everything. I don't know if that answers your question.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Yeah, and would you say it does. Would you say for Jonathan, even it's I find it's I'm also I'm a psychotherapist, and so the majority of clients I work with actually have a diagnosis of bipolar or schizophrenia or depression with psychotic features. And I found through my clients that there's this shame that they can have around their diagnosis. And they've often said to me, like, listen, I just wish like I broke a bone or I wish I was diagnosed with cancer. Like, I wish I had something that was explainable because there's actually millions of people with a bipolar diagnosis, right? And as you explain for Jonathan, you absolutely can have a combination of things from medication to good therapy to a good support system. Right. And you wouldn't know it, right? But have you found that for Jonathan? It has been that has he received, you think, kind of the love and care, not only from you and those close to him. Do you feel like it's been understood, or has there been shame too that he's had to work through or that you two have had to work through together?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Thank you for asking that question. That's a really important one. And, you know, so before the accident, he was very secretive about his diagnosis. He didn't tell anyone, any of his close friends. No one knew. I didn't tell any of my close friends because it was his his secret or his his diagnosis. It wasn't mine to, you know, share. Of course, my family knew and you know, super close friends, but or maybe not even my super close friends, because he didn't tell his friends. But then after the accident, there was no hiding, right? There was no hiding it. It was he was his he had a physical manifestation of his mental diagnosis. And so he had to be open about it. And he did, he had to tell his close friends and people in his life tell everybody that we meet, but um he's much more open about it, and I think he's just come to terms with like this is who I am, and this is there's no hiding it, you know. I mean, I think it's I think at this point of his life, you know, he's accepted it because what else could he do? Right. But there there definitely has been shame. And I think because he was in the past, you know, he would he presented as normal and put in quotes, you know, and was a he's a handsome guy, and you know, he would he would get get through life. But now people see him, he's in a wheelchair. I think it's been a journey for him as far as his acceptance of the diagnosis. But um, I will say that some people we have some really close friends that are have always been supportive of us, and nobody has said, you know, I shame Jonathan for being bipolar or for being in a wheelchair, but he has lost some friends. And part of it is, you know, just life goes on, you know, people move on, and he he's some of his friends have moved to other states, have children, things change. So I'm not saying that people are consciously discriminating. His friends are discriminating against him in that way, but I think there's an unconscious part of people that can't handle it. Like it's too much. They didn't know that about him, now they do, and it's it's painful, you know. And so that that does make me sad. And again, you know, I don't blame people. I that when that when his accident first happened, I did have a lot more anger, and I sort of projected a lot of that anger outward, especially with COVID, because you know, everybody was dealing with a crisis at the time, which was, you know, it was a global crisis, and so everyone was freaked out about COVID, and obviously understandably, but for me it felt like how could they be so worried about COVID when I'm dealing with this? But again, the anger piece, like I was angry at some of his friends or some people, you know, at that time that felt like they weren't really there for him. But I also understand that people, you know, I think you've talked about this, Crystal. Like people have a certain capacity, and you know, I can't that's their path, and I can't blame them. And I again, I don't think it's conscious. I think for some people it's like they don't realize it, but they just they can't handle it. It's too much.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Yeah. No, I you ex you explain that well. Like it is unconscious, at least not conscious, right? But someone who finds out something then feels different. And because it feels so uncomfortable within them, they kind of they just shift away. Um, even to think of Jonathan now, granted, him being in a wheelchair, right? Experiences occurred. So his life, anyhow, our life changes if we go through any experience. But Jonathan, whether or not he was in a wheelchair, is Jonathan. Right. He was his wife, you know. Me as someone who cares so much, like when I see him, I see him for Jonathan. But there are individuals that see someone in a circumstance, and for some reason it it just like feels too sad to them. So they then think differently. Um they might not be able to really sit in that discomfort, right? Or move the discomfort.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

And I'm so grateful for the people that can. You know, people always talk about this, you know, when you've been through something tragic and you know, you see who's really, really there for you, and you see who those close friends are. And I definitely have, you know, a good, good group of of friends that can handle it and have been there and are supportive, you obviously included.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Thank you. Yeah, I love I love you guys. Can you tell us how you've changed you as a person, whether it be, you know, your your personality, your goals, your wishes, how are you different from before?

SPEAKER_02 36:31

Yeah. I will be honest because I was thinking about when you asked the question about Jonathan too, and I talked about his attitude, you know, being positive and everything. There is a spark, you know, that I think is missing from both of us. I hate to say it, but it's the truth. You know, we're not as silly and playful and lighthearted as we once were. It's like, how could you be? And I think you got you guys can probably relate, you know, when you've been through something so traumatic and tragic, it's like you're you're not gonna see the world the same. So I, you know, I feel like when it first happened, I kept saying like nothing, nothing matters. Like the small, you know, the small stuff doesn't, nothing matters like other than the love that you have for the people in your life that are really close to you, you know, and your health and all the cliche things that people say, but it's so true. And so I think, yeah, I have less capacity for for BS, you know, and for people that aren't don't have depth and don't aren't aren't there, you know, aren't willing to to talk about really important deep things. But as far as, you know, I'm trying to think of other like positive ways. I mean, as I said, with my career, I continue, I feel like it's made me grow as a therapist. And you know, I always keep striving ahead, you know, with my career and wanting to be the best mom I can be. And friendships are so important to me. My, you know, relationships, I just continue to work on, and um, yeah, I think that that's how I would answer that.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

It really stops you in your tracks, right? When something, when a significant loss or tragedy occurs, it can kind of just like wipe the life out of you for a second, right? And I remember when I I first got to you, Jude was baby baby. How old was Jude?

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Like It was a couple months, like two months.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

Yeah, like baby baby, and us going on a walk with Nelsie, Nelsie Newsy, your dog. And me asking you, like, how are you? And you're like, I just like things will just never be the same. And you speaking of that heaviness and that light, and then I remember, I mean, days, days later, but I was like the light, it's there, right? It's right, it's we're in you, and I was just because that was how I remember Jonathan too, right? His funny dance, the dance you would do right at the wedding and at the end of it. And he can still do it in the wheelchair just differently. Yes, yes, and him doing it, and it's like you just it's almost like the light, it's like say it's a candle, like the candle doesn't stay on as long, but it's there, right? And it's really hard to access it when you when you've gone through so much, and you just, I mean, it was the perfect storm for sure. I think with all of the changes at once, good or bad, that were happening, right? From a wedding to to pregnancy to an amazing honeymoon and all the things, it was just like the combination of things occurred and that things went went south for quite a while. And you're you're still here and you're still doing it. And I believe um your your clients are very lucky to have you.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

Oh thank you. And yours are too.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

I was just wondering with all of the heaviness and like why is this happening with Jonathan's accident and then the baby coming early? What how did you get to the positiveness that you are now? Or was there something that just made you think that, or was it a journey to get there? How how did that happen?

SPEAKER_02 40:19

Oh, I think time obviously, you know, people always talk about time heals, and that's that's true. I mean, I never wanted to let Jonathan's accident, you know, completely destroy our lives. So even from the beginning, I remember, and it was COVID too, I keep saying that, but such a significant time. I remember having a Jude, a new baby, and we still would travel to local, you know, we went to Santa Barbara, San Diego, stay in nice hotels because hardly anyone was doing that. And, you know, just still living life, uh, still trying to do, you know, everything I can to have some normalcy. Just again, the friends being surrounded by people that we love. I just remember too, like really good meals, food. We've always been foodies and we had a lot of good meals during that time. I don't know. It's I think it's just there's no real significant answer to that. I think it's just a matter of, you know, time and finding, you know, finding parts of ourselves that keep, you know, come at keep coming back. And I wish I had a more like eloquent way to explain it.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

But well, I guess the gratitude for your son surviving and thriving makes it kind of easy to be like thankful for this life. And like you said, the cliche, the little things and right.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Definitely Jude was the number one reason that we, you know, found happiness in our lives and still do. I yeah, even in the, you know, the the times when which were soon after the accident, when Jude was there, I do remember feeling just like the ha some of the happiest times of my life too. It's interesting to have like the most tragic and the happiest at the same time. Crystal, I know you can relate to that with having your baby right after your sister's passing.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Of course. I mean, within days of finding out I was pregnant with Casey, Jen passed, and it was right the most difficult time, and also it saved me that I was pregnant, right? It that got me through that, and then having her. And I guess that. And I remember being with you and Jude, me, you and Jonathan, didn't we go out for his birthday? Yeah, yeah. And us getting back, you know, and it was I think his first maybe time out, and we did dinner and it was nice, and getting back, and we were I think he was changing Jude, and it was just like really stinky, and him just like laughing in such a way, like everything about Jude made Jonathan smile. Every little right, like change of his face or coup, like it was such a hard time and also such a beautiful time. And I imagine it gave him hope to get up and go through. It is not, I can only imagine, but not easy having to manage a new life like that. And he would just get up and do all the things.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Right. Yeah. There was something I was just gonna say, and I completely lost it. It was important.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Was it about Jonathan? I guess even the hardships. I don't know if you were thinking of that, because when I was thinking back to that time too, I'd have to say I I don't know that I would have understood the weight and challenges someone has to go through, newly handicapped, right? Partially fully paralyzed. All that he had to do to get through every day, talk about strength.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Okay, that helped me remember what I was gonna say, which was you know, again, a cliche thing, but so grateful that he is alive. You know, that is what has helped us through, too, because he really I I hate to say should have died, but I mean everybody in the hospital was saying like it's a miracle that he's alive. And so that miracle, you know, just holding on to that miracle. And I remember, Crystal, when you were visited, you know, when Jude was newborn and soon after Jonathan's accident, maybe on that same walk we've talked about, you saying, you know, I would do anything to have Jen back. If she were in a wheelchair, you know, I'd be so grateful. And that really helped me put things in perspective too. You know, it's like he's here. And I still get to talk to him and I still get to laugh with him and still get to love him. And I'm grateful every day, you know, that he's alive. And of course, like as life goes on, you think about that less often, you know, but it's that's that's a really powerful part of how we've gotten through all of it.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

To have each other, right? It may not be what you dreamed up, right? Or saw for your life. I mean, and I and not to take that lightly, right? Like you've known you for 20 plus years. I mean, your love of traveling, certain things, right, that require a lot of movement is part of who you are. And still, you and Jonathan and Jude have managed to stay together and stay strongly together to to love each other here and now. And I just think it's beautiful. I'm honored that you were willing to do this and and to share your story here. I believe, um, especially around mental health and mental illness and diagnoses, we really need to normalize the reality of it. Um probably a lot more people than you realize have these diagnoses.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

Or go undiagnosed because they are afraid to go to the doctor.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Right. Yeah, absolutely. So thank you. And we look forward to um sharing this and maybe doing a part two someday. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thanks for listening.