Episode 17- Marlon

Marlon shares his inspiring journey from a challenging upbringing in Brooklyn to becoming a community leader and advocate for fathers. He discusses the impact of family, systemic challenges, and the importance of resilience, mental health, and community support.

Marlon is the cofounder of Dad Guild: https://www.dadguild.org/

Marlon’s a comedian: https://www.bigfishcomedy.com/

Please listen with an open mind and heart to the many layers of each person & the life they lead. We are grateful to Marlon for sharing. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Welcome everyone to another episode of Grief and Gratitude. We are here with my co-host, Crystal, and her longtime friend Marlon. Crystal, I'll hand it over to you so you can introduce him.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Great. Thank you, Mandy. Yes, we are here with Marlon Fisher, who I have known back 2019, right? Seven, eight years. We met in the criminal legal system. Marlon is many things. He is a father of two young black boys here in Vermont. He is a single father. He is the founder of Dad Guild. Yeah, Dad Guild. Co-founder.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

I'm a co-founder.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Co-founder of Dad Guild. He is a community member. He is also a veteran and a huge advocate for community members here in Vermont. So Marlon's going to share with us a bit about his upbringing in history, relationship with his mom, and also how that's translated to uh as a single father raising his two young children. So Marlon, take it away.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Um on this. And I just want to just right off the bat, just uh say this was this was a really difficult one for me to um to share because for many things. So here's my disclaimer is that like my disclaimer is that like people have faults and I understand that. And um, but I've also learned a lot from uh the perfections and imperfections of of uh the our loved ones and and caregivers and everyone that has been in and out of my life. So um so I'm gonna talk a little bit about my mom uh uh and a little bit about my uh uh my and and after that. So my my mom, my my mom had me at the age of 16. Her and my dad uh went to the same high school. Uh he was a like an outstanding basketball player and she was an outstanding track star. And at the age of 16, um, you know, after you know, I guess catcalling my dad out of the window, uh, I was conceived. And so that was uh a a fun little story to hear from my mom about how that all incurred, but my dad was not as involved in my upbringing. Um uh, you know, he was in and out of the picture, and some and my mom went on, they went on to having another, my brother, who I'm two years older than, um, and it was my mom all the way. My mom, my mom all the way. And so I'd like to just start by saying like she's an incredible uh human being. Uh I don't think I would have uh without her, I wouldn't be where I am today, um, emotionally, mentally, like all the things. Um, and also with her, because of her, I've learned a lot in terms of you know navigating relationships. So, you know, she's a a strong woman. My mom uh is a very strong woman, and and I that's how I saw her. Um from when my youngest brother came home from being born, well not youngest brother, might be younger, but my brother was born, and I remember saying, Mommy, what's that? Um and she's like, That's your baby brother, uh, to um her teaching me how to dance, her calling me shunky, go shunky, you know, all the time. Um, you know, and then and then also just like teach, like when I say teach me how to dance, my mom's from Jamaica, so like I had to learn how to move the hips, you know. So like that was really a good thing. But she was a young mom, and I remember like she would always throw back then, like there was no studies on television and all that stuff, but I watched a lot of Mr. Rogers, a lot of Reading Rainbow, um, all those things. And uh the the dreaded question from a toddler growing up is mommy, what's that? You know, so I remember her saying uh a lot, like, mommy, what's that? Mommy, what's that? And I was asking her all the things that you know curious kids ask for. Um, and I also just remember her being really fast, like super, super like fast. Um and this is in the, you know, now, you know, in the in the 80s, right? In the early mid, mid to late 80s. And um, what I saw in her is that she was constantly making sacrifices for both uh to make sure that my basic or my brother and I's basic needs were always met. Um, you know, we were on public assistance, you know, we, you know, things were really hard. Um and I remember specifically my mom uh was dating, uh had dated two men that are two men that I had known was, you know, with two men that had eventually moved into my my my living living with us at, you know, for I don't know, I would say years, and they weren't great. They weren't great examples for me. Um and you know, when I look back and think about their behaviors and actions, like I like, you know, had I been me today then they would be they would have been out of my uh our lives. Um but like despite all of that, like one thing that my mom did really well is she protected me from the external influences. So again, I I grew up in uh you know, we lived all over, but living in New York City, uh, I remember living in Harlem and being exposed to uh with one of these men, uh, you know, being exposed to like the drug game, uh, you know, um and and seeing all of that. But my mom really worked hard to not allow me to fall into that. And I remember, you know, one guy in particular would always like buy me things and and give me money and all that stuff, and that's kind of like the grooming thing that you know drug dealers would do. And and my mom did a really good job of of not allowing me to um fall into that. Another cool thing is that you know, we we grew up poor, and our I and this story sticks out in my mind because it's probably the most several things, but this sticks out in my mind because at one point we had no food, no food in the house. And I remember collecting pennies, going to the corny stuff the corner store, um, and it was a there was an individual who was always out at that corner in front of the store doing their thing, and that person always bought us, like would always buy like the quarter waters, the bag of chips, the the the sandwiches, uh, and that person um is we all know it that individual now as Fat Joe. And you know, he he wasn't Fat Joe then, and now he's Fat Joe, and I you know I guess if he ever listens to this, I just want him to know how much how grateful I am for those those those moments of of him providing for for us. And um and again, like I said, collecting pennies, and we were collecting, using those pennies to collect mint, to eat mint balls. We were eating mint balls uh at one point in time. Uh they don't sell them anymore, but they were like the big fat peppermint balls you can get for five cents. But yeah, we were living with one of these men, and I I remember we got some spaghetti and pasta sauce, and my mom made a huge pot of it, and this dude would come in and eat all of our food all the time. And I remember my mom hiding a pot of spaghetti under the bed so that we can eat food. These are the these are just one of the many things that she's done to make sure that we were taken care of. In 1988, uh, in the first grade, I was awarded an opportunity. I was one of 250 students around the country in 10 different inner cities, a scholarship to college through Merrill Lynch and the National Urban League. That really opened up a lot of doors and opportunities, not just for me uh and all my classmates and the other students around the country, but it opened up opportunities for our immediate families, our siblings, and we got to do so many different things like ring the bell on the New York Stock Exchange, have breakfast with like the mayor of the New York of New York City back then, who happened to be uh Giuliani, and I remember sitting in Gracie Mansion doing that sort of thing. Um uh, you know, uh college tours, mentors. My first computer was uh from Merrill, tutoring sessions, we were giving mentors, all these things, jobs. My first job, one of my first jobs uh like on the books was working at Merrill Lynch as a, I don't know, 15, 16-year-old doing global global remote access solutions. And like that, it was so cool to be in a financial district and and and and do those things. That opportunity also allowed my mom to go get get find work. And my mom ended up working at Merrill Lynch for for uh up until probably I would say just around uh a little around post-9-11. Um we moved from Harlem to Brooklyn and she uh we and she was still working, but I remember like we didn't have furniture and we were sleeping on bags of bags of clothes. Um, but eventually like that all changed, you know, that all changed where we had had the things that we needed. Um and I just want to just I'm gonna kind of fast forward here to, again, I'm still in this uh, you know, at w at one point I wasn't the best kid at times, right? And so I remember my mom sending me to go live with my grandfather and his uh and his wife for some quite some time, and that was really difficult. I think I was 12 and I had to walk all the way to school, you know, like not I mean I'm saying this in Vermont, like, you know, but I don't know, kids, kids get bust now, but I remember walking all the way to school and it took a long time. Um and I, you know, that that taught me a lesson, right? Like I I was being I I was disrespectful towards my mom, uh, and you know, and she would and she didn't she would she didn't want to have that. And so, you know, she sent me with my grandmother, my great my stepgrandmother and her his wife and my grandfather. Um again, like the the scholarship had all the all these opportunities. Um and in 1998, um, around that time, uh I mean I also went to summer camp. That's the other piece, too. So like this opportunity another opportunity that came along with the scholarship was I got sent to summer camp uh in upstate New York as a 10-year-old. And so that was really interesting because I got a lot of, you know, gained a lot of skills. And um one thing that stands out is another thing that stands out is like I was I became really responsible. And I feel like my mom leaned on me a lot for things. So when I became a teenager, um, I I I'm not gonna say I was the man of the house, but I was, you know, pretty I had a lot of responsibilities. Um and in my junior year of high school in Brooklyn, uh, I stopped going to school. I I, you know, I just felt like I didn't need to go to school. And part of that was because my mom, I had gone away for that my 16, when I was 16, I went away for the summer of 1998. Uh, my both my brother and I, and right before we left, my mom had met this guy. Um, and you know, right off the bat, she's like, I don't like this dude. Like, I never I don't want anything to do with him if he if he calls the house, like, say I'm not here, blah, blah, blah. You know, so I remember like he would call a few times, I'd say, she's not here, and then and then my brother and I went away for the summer. And that was two months. We were gone for almost two and a half months, and we came back to this individual living in our house. And and I just I didn't like him. Um I didn't like him. And the reason why I didn't like him mostly is because that the strong, you know, uh initi like showing initiative, the community oh my mom's a huge community person. Uh the strong woman that I that raised me, uh, I suddenly started to see her become weak with this man. And so it went to the point where I also just should say that, you know, there were with the scholarship, there were a lot of white people who who came into my life and were very great and and were great people, and I still know them today, and they became family to me. But this guy came in and was uh not a big fan of of white people. He would always just trash talk and and say all these things, and um, and that's not the world that I was living. That's not what I was experiencing at that time, right? You know, like because I wasn't around a lot at that time. But again, he's it all of his his messaging really took a toll on on the this woman who was so strong and made lots of sacrifices, and um I ended up dropping out of school. I ended up dropping out and leaving school for some time. And uh one of the mentors in the program, you know, found out and decided to me, decided that um they would send me to boarding school. And I went to boarding school. I went to a a very um prestigious, well-known like prestige prestigious school in Connecticut, uh, and I did really well there. I ended up graduating, got into every college that I applied to, um, and I actually repeated my junior year. I was originally in a class of 2000, and I repeated my junior year. Um, and I got into every college I applied to, colleges that I didn't even think I would even get into, right? Like top 20, and some of them were in the top 20 in the nation, and that was really awesome. Um around the same time, you know, we my mom, this is now three years, three, four years later, you know, this this man, you know, had not only moved in with us, but also convinced my mom to like somewhat leave to leave her job because she had been working at Merrill, leave her job. We were not getting any money. Uh he wasn't he wasn't providing much. And when I graduated from uh uh wasn't providing much, and we had to like leave, we we were had to leave our apartment before getting evicted, and we ended up leaving and moving into my my my grandfather's one of uh they had a home, but they had an apartment. We ended up moving in there with the living living there with them, and he moved in with us. And I'm like, what is going on? This is this is crazy. Um and that's around the same time where I dropped out. Um it was it wasn't fun. It wasn't it wasn't fun to watch this happening. Uh and I ended up, you know, again, I ended up going to boarding school, I left, and and and um after I graduated, the the other opportunity before I graduated, my brother, my younger, my brother, who's two years younger, also got an opportunity to go to boarding school as well. And I remember graduating in 2001, and uh I I went to uh went off to college and um I didn't I didn't even complete, I didn't even get make it halfway through my first semester of college. Uh I ended up moving back home, living with my my mom. Uh this and this is post-9-11 now. So post-9-11, and I think I should also mention this about my mother. My mom was in was on the 97th floor of the World Trade Center in the 1993 bombings, had to walk down all those flights of stairs. I hadn't known, I was in the fifth grade at the time, I hadn't known my mom was taking the train home and she passed out on the train and ended up in the hospital. In 2001, my first semester in college, uh, that 9-11, uh, I that morning before anything happened, I called my mom and I said, Hey, I need you to take my printer and bring it to this office, which happened to be in this in the World Financial Center. Uh, I need you to bring it to this office. Um And then I went off to class. And the next thing you know, I'm like seeing my classmates, uh, students like talking about all the things that are, you know, the the attacks. And I'm like, oh shit, my mom is down near. What my mom decided to do at that time is she took her last $20 and sent me the printer instead of going downtown. And so like she missed it. But again, like that's so deep, like that like the first experience, you know, the in '93, this like seeing this thing and that potential. And so I didn't make it through that first semester and I ended up moving back home. And uh my brother um was still in was still there, was still in high school. And this one moment stands out to me in particular where I was preparing to go back to col go back to school uh for the s for the f for the spring semester uh to a different school. And I was I was making my rounds around New York City saying goodbye, and this man uh assaulted my mom. I found out that he assaulted he he had physically assaulted my mom. And um I remember like getting getting back getting in touch with my mom, and we had to get escorted by police into our apartment to make sure that he wasn't there. I I I know that this wasn't the first time. I also knew that I got to a point where I felt big enough and strong enough to speak up and and and say and and and speak up to this individual when he would get loud and disrespect my mother. I remember I did that one time and he called some friends over to intimidate me. And so that was a that was a big, a huge point for me, a huge turning point because at that point someone I said to my mom, We we need to get you out of here. Like this is not gonna happen anymore. And so I used my network, I didn't use my network, I reached out to my network of mentors and friends and figured out a plan to move my mom out of that situation and put her into a different situation. And we ended up moving into moving in with some family, and that's a whole nother story, that stuff that came up through there, but she ended up moving in with some family, and we're preparing for my now this is you know 2003, a couple years later. My brother is preparing to graduate from from high school and um uh actually this did 2003, so she had lived, sorry, I'm fast forward, I'm going too fast. She had lived with these, my moved to a different city within New York and had lived with these family members, and she and my brother was getting ready for spring break. Yeah, my brother's getting ready for spring break, which in boarding school is a long time. You know, it's like a whole month. And I remember uh calling my mom at the pla at the family place and asking her, like, hey, like, are my brother's coming home? Are you gonna be, is he could he stay is he gonna stay, like where is he gonna stay with you where you are? And she said, I have something to tell you. She told me that she had moved back with this dude. You know, and you know, that's what victims do. Sometimes they there's a cycle of there's a cycle, and she had moved back in with him that that March of 2003, and my brother graduated in June, and I remember like getting all the things ready, getting her up to my brother's graduation, and you know, it was a great celebration, and we were one of my mentors had paid for it, got us a car to take us back to Brooklyn, and we stopped at 125th Street, right 125th Street, right where the the Metro North stop is, and it was like a little restaurant or diner or something. We sat down, the three of us, and my mom had something to tell us, and she said, I have to tell you something, and we were like, Yeah, what's up? And she's like, I'm pregnant with so and so's baby. And that was fucking hard. And I remember like all the stuff that this guy had put it put her through over the years, like moving in, you know, the abuse, all these things, and I remember just getting up and saying, Fuck you, mom, and walking away. That was really tough because I again I I saw this strong woman caregiver succumb to someone who wasn't providing any no no added value to her life. No value added. And so uh I I I I decided and made the decision to to not communicate and to keep my mom at a distance, a a really far distance. Uh she ended up having uh uh my brother um who is now almost 23 and um I've slowly slowly when I became a you know I didn't I didn't even invite my mom to my wedding. Um and I and my mom slowly uh and oh and I've slowly let her let her back in because I had children of my own, two boys, um, and I thought it was felt it was really important for them to know their family, uh know who where I came from. And uh it was you know, I and again I would I would invite my mom up to meet to to see the boys, I would let the I would talk to them, and uh I would say over the last you know ten years, uh things have gone okay uh and well. Uh I feel like a lot of the conversations I have with my mom can be uh superficial at times, right? Always wants to tell me the things that are going well, going well. Um, but we know that like they aren't, right? She's still living with this individual who doesn't inter even interact with uh my brother, who just graduated from college uh several days ago. Um and and like she's still in the same living situation. And and part of me is like, I need to I want to get her out there. But that's those are her those were her choices to make, and I couldn't do that. Um that being said, my mom also is a very involved in the community. Like, you know, she's she's interacted with city counselors and and creating, you know, and and and you know, she has this thing that she created uh years ago for girls' basketball. I used to play in basketball tournaments as a kid, so she created like the the the girl ver the feet for girls, like called It's Our Time. And so she does events for for kids and girls and women and all these things. Um but the other part to this too is in 2008, before joining the army, uh my mom uh had some some um health issues uh with her heart. And uh that was hard, you know, because now because she's young, she's still young, and to watch over the years to watch my mother's health deteriorate to a point where like these things are preventable, like it's preventable stuff. Uh but and then I think about like the environment that she lives in, right? Like we think about like I'm like, oh, like food deserts and all these things, they like still exist. They they exist in a place like Brooklyn, New York. They exist where you're not getting the good food, or you're not even providing people the options to make good choices to get good food or good, you know, good things. And and again, that's the choice that my mom has uh has made. Um and so yeah, so like that's it. So I saw my mom on Friday, on this Friday, it was great, you know. Like it's just hard to see her health go go in a direction that um is preventable, and I've and that and it's not my it's you know, part of me is like, hey, take care of yourself, it's not my place. So that brings me to uh the second part of my story, um, which is uh I got married in uh 2015 uh to an amazing woman. Uh so I thought, I'm gonna just say that. So I thought we had two amazing children. Uh with my firstborn, I was a stay-at-home dad for about a year and a half, and then we had our second son, um, and they are, they like to say they're 18 months and 28 days apart. Um, and they are the most amazing children one could ask for. Um and over the last almost six years, gone through uh separation, divorce, and now we are almost two and a half years post-divorce. Um one of the things is I was awarded full legal custody of uh of my child of the boys in primary physical custody. And so we've been doing this 50-50 split, which for me was really important because growing up without my father in my life, if we are going to raise two children, having both parents, especially at a young age, is super important and really important for their development, their love, relationships, like all the things. And so that's where I'm at. But once our divorce was finalized, that didn't, that that was not what my ex-wife wanted. And so she appealed that decision, and we went to the Supreme Court, and uh the Supreme Court upheld and affirmed the lower court's decision. And that was in 2024. And throughout the entire divorce, I've experienced things that I would I'd never experienced as a kid growing up in Brooklyn in Brooklyn, New York, in New York City. I just say New York City because it was all over, but I'm from Brooklyn. Um my previous police experience prior to uh what I'm about to share was I think I did some police athletically thing as a kid. Um I the the the cops going into my apartment and clearing the house when my mom was doing, and then and then like most recently, I like most recently, but then at one point I was an embedded social worker uh or you know, community outreach worker with um a local mental health agency up here and worked closely with the police. Um and so that was like great. Those are great things. But during my time, uh throughout the divorce, is what what ends up happening is my ex-wife makes a lot of you know a lot of false um police reports, reports me to DCF, I don't know how many times, uh all the things that that that are harmful, that are harmful, especially being a black man in Vermont, using systems that were built to, I feel like I know, systems that were built to to to to like keep people down. I'm not just to say black people, but just people who are like not educated, because when you when you see these things, when you get on the other side, I used to, you know, when I used to be a probation officer, all these things, but when you see the other side and how difficult it can be for people who you may not may not even be able to read, but starts using these systems to cause harm to me. Uh, and not only using the systems, but then a lot of false allegations, a lot of lies, a lot of lies to the point where we have to go to court and then there's no evidence presented. Uh this this narrative that I'm this abuser and all these things, like all of this was just took such a huge toll on me. And then it got to a point where I'm like, oh, this isn't me. This is not about me. It's about someone who's hurting and not happy. But then it becomes harder for me because my two children are living this experience where I'm really focused on their health and well-being and trying to do its best and fostering a relationship that is positive with their mother. While on the other hand, I don't know what's being told to them, but their experience is opposite of what their experience with mom is opposite of what their experience with me is, right? So I I've learned that mom had them interviewed by private investigators without an adult present, without my knowledge or consent. I learned that mom had them living in shelters by with this narrative that I was stalking and harassing her. Also, a lot a lot of that untrue. So she created this world. I learned that mom uh flew them to a different state to be assessed by some part of an assessment without my knowledge or consent, and then try to use that in the courts to like to take custody, like she does to take custody. And to hear the mother of our children, the mother of my children say that none of that, none of the things that she's done over the years is harmful or has a negative impact on our children is extremely difficult. Now, my the boys are at a point in life where I like to tell them that, you know, we could all look at the same picture and see it differently, right? And if I see if I see it differently, I'm not gonna push what I see onto them. What they see, smell, hear, like that's their experience. And so they're living in these two worlds. One of them is one of them is like I'm like my world, right? Community, loving, like, you know, all these things that I'm trying to do. Where another world, I don't know. Isolation, you know, they're they're being told one thing. I I have no idea. But what I what I've established is uh a strong bond between me and them. And so what's really hard for me is that these boys may get to a point where like the they're gonna research this stuff. They're gonna see all these things in a public record now about me, about their mom. And it may come to a point where they make a they make a decision. A decision that I had to make for someone who who I loved and cared for and and and someone that protected me and kept me safe and did all these things. And they're gonna have to at some point make a choice that I don't want them to make, right? A choice to like step out of step away from their mom. Like that's not what I want for them. And it's really hard for me to say all this here because this is gonna go out into the world. And everything that I've done in my life, everything that I've done in some way or another, has been has been used against me to to like modify custody or or you know, some report or some DCF report that I'm I'm not aware of that in right. And so I walked into this interview, this this story, knowing that this will be heard by my ex-wife. And what I want to say, if if she's listening, is like what we're doing is in the best interest of the boys, should be in the best interest of the boys, and like they are loved by both of us. And I don't and my goal is to make sure that that they respect, care, do all the things for their mom, just as I did for mine. But at the end of the day, when they find out and see which they're which they're already experiencing, when they see the truth, when they see the things and experience those things, they may have to make a choice. And that is an extremely difficult choice. And so that's the loss, right? The loss is when I when I what the thing I think about like you know, the grief part is like I'm grieving on one side with where like I'm trying to repair and doing the best I can to like have a relationship with my mom today so that my boys can have a relationship with her, their grandma. And at this other same point is like making sure that I set them up to be loving, caring black men for their mom who continues to like do this stuff to me at their expense. At their expense. And it hasn't nothing's manifested now, but I I guarantee it, I guarantee at some point they're gonna have to get to a point where it's gonna be really difficult to say, I need to take a break. For it could be from me too. Like that could it could be for me as well. And to make a choice to like leave a caregiver, to move out, to like step away from someone who you care and love about so much is not an easy choice. And so um that's kind of my that's kind of my story, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Well, thanks for sharing.

SPEAKER_04 32:57

Um I just had a couple questions, um, but I wanted to start with your relationship with your mother. Um, it sounds like it was a toxic relationship growing up and even as an adult. Um and you said you repaired that so your boys could know their family. Um But I'm just curious if if you know that it's a toxic relationship. Um, what do you think it's a good idea to um let them know her because she's your mom?

SPEAKER_03 33:44

Or um like how do you feel about them being involved, knowing what you know, and they don't know it, but you know what you know, and um I'm not sure what I I could I yeah, I I I got I kinda got it.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

So I would I would just say like it was toxic at times. It became more it was toxic at times, like like you know, at times, but what was really the the the toxic piece for me in our relationship was the external influence of this in of this person coming into our lives. That person was toxic. That person was so toxic that it broke my that that their they broke my mom down to to to what she to they broke my mom down a little that they broke my mom down that impacted our relationship. And so, you know, yes, that I you know there's always I was a teenager, things, all that stuff happened, but like I know that like deep depth, I know that my mom always loved me and again always put me first. And and her relationship with my children, with her grandchildren is is outstanding, right? You know, they like they we we talk to her a couple times, you know, maybe once or twice every other week. We got to we get to get to call her and speak to her. Um, um, so I'm not I know no at no I'm not uh afraid of them engaging with her. I mean I do the same for my with with my with my dad, you know, they they call him once a week and they speak to him and you know they ask to speak. So they have a relationship. Uh because my relationship with my mom is gonna be is different than their relationship. One thing I should have said too is like my brother, my youngest brother, the one who's who's I'm I'm you know who's about to turn 23, like he grew up in a completely different mindset of my mom, a way different mindset. And he had it, and he has a physically present father, and that's it. They pat they like pass each other, maybe go into the bathroom, and that was it his entire life to this day. And so like that was that's that's the thing. So yeah, my I would say, so that if that answers anything, like I I'm like, I will foster any relationship with my children, if even if my relationship with that person is, you know, that's when again, my my relationship with my ex-wife is is little, is is there's no way. I mean, I can't even co-parent. And so my my butt, but but still, that is who they love, that is who loves them, and and it loves them in their way, and I'm going to work my work my butt off to make sure that they remain respectful, that they remain loving, and that and all those things. And that's all I can do. And however that relationship ends up is how that relationship ends up.

SPEAKER_04 36:39

Well, that's great that you um really gave her a chance and that it it seems like it's working out. Um and then I just had another question um about you said perception and how perception is everything really. Everybody has different perceptions of things. Um do you worry about your children um hearing things that are untrue about you and believing them? Do they ask you, hey dad, did you do this or how do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_00 37:19

Yeah, so they don't ask me anything because I think they're told not to I think they're being coached. Um and so that's the one thing. I don't, I don't really, I don't ask them anything about their um mom other than like, how was your weekend, how was your day, like, you know, that kind of stuff. Um and so so their perception, so so I I am where I am today because of one good, one one parent. Even though we had our moments and all that stuff, like I'm I'm here. I'm I'm I'm a good father, I'm a good person, I have faults, I've made mistakes as well, like, but it just like everyone says it just takes one. It just takes one. And so uh I'm not uh worried uh at all because again, like their experience at some, well they'll they'll yeah, their experience is their experience, and they'll figure it out. They'll see that.

SPEAKER_04 38:08

That sounds really really difficult. That um to grieve that relationship that you had, unfortunately, that you can't ask, how was your weekend at mom's? Or you know, that seems very difficult. Um and I don't know, I just I hope it gets better for you someday.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Yeah, I I think you know, Mandy, is uh in the beginning of all this, when the the the the fault, the lies started happening, and I was like, hey, and I and I still have these text messages, like, hey, like at some point the kids are gonna see this, like don't don't go there. And then when it got to the point where like, you know, police are being called because I because you think that I'm in the house and they're the police are walking through the house with their guns drawn because you're telling them I think it's my ex-husband or that kind of thing. That's just when I find that out, like that's scary. That's scary. Like this person is willing to send police to my door when they have my children because of a missed phone call. Like that that is crazy. If I had a dollar for every time I told somebody I was gonna call them back and not call them back, like I would be, you know, I would have 10 podcasts. I don't know. I would be sponsoring a podcast, I don't know. But like that's that's crazy. Like to to do that and put your children in harm's way, right? Like, not I wouldn't say harmless way, it doesn't have to be harmless way, but like to expose them to that. Like at this point in my in my children's lives, they've had more police interactions than than when I was at almost 10. That's nuts. But that's not that's just them, and it's unnecessary. Like there are lots of kids out there who've had multiple police and all that stuff, but like these are things that were not that were not necessary. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:49

Well, it also sounds like she's grieving the relationship and just doesn't know how to handle it.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Uh we will never know, man, Mandy. We will never know.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

That's a very true another podcast, but I would say into perspective.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

I don't have my MD yet, but to put it in perspective, though, for Marlin, for you to say your sons have had more police interactions than you, you grew up in Harlem in Brooklyn as a black man, and your two young black boys of eight and nine, right? One almost ten have had more interactions because of a divorce in Vermont. There is not a concern, right? Like with all of these things you've done to provide safety, that still existed, right? And that still exists for them. Um, I do want to go back and just touch upon your mom and the thing what is was amazing to me was to hear you really humanize your mom as a human, right? Moms aren't just moms, just like dads aren't just dads. Your mom's a human, she's a person. She comes from a story before her, right? Whether it be generational trauma or experiences, she came in not just as your mom, and you identified she did her best. Um, you also identify two things can be true. You can choose not to have, right, an intimate, connected relationship with her. And also you can identify that she can create and hold space for her grandchildren in a way that gives them that layer of family. And so doing that, right, you've allowed them to have an extended family, but you've also had many years, right, to create to create kind of that separation for yourself and to protect yourself.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Um, and when we fast forward to co-parenting and co-parenting where you don't have um wait, what is co-parenting? Right, yeah. What where you don't have the capacity to co-parent, right? You the two of you can't come together and have conversations and meet up and discuss all the things. You I guess I'd wonder what you've been able to do for your mental health when you recognize where you do not have control, because that will literally eat you alive. That will put someone in a position to not be able to parent because you are in such grief of the inability to co-parent. What have you done now that it's been a few years? What have you learned that could be useful to someone else going through such an experience?

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Yeah. So I can control only what I need, what I what I can control. That's it. Like there are things that are outside of, you know, that that are outside of me that I can't control. Um I can't, you can't control people. You never that's never a that's never been a thing. Um, which is why I think I'm in this situation because I didn't realize that. Uh anyway, you can't control people. Um what I what have I done is I I've leaned heavily on my friends and family and community um in a way that um doesn't burn them out. Uh, you know, uh doesn't burn them out. Uh I, you know, also therapy and uh, you know, uh, you know, up until recently I had this amazing partner who was always present and um all the always present. Uh it took me a while to get here, get there, but like I remember in the beginning of of the this divorce stuff, like I was I was so reactive. Like, I have to respond to this right now. And so now I just I mean, I I'm not going to respond to your messages immediately. Let's just say like I won't even I won't even look at them. So just um you know, unless it's an emergency. Um, but like putting myself In a place where I can prepare for what I'm about to receive, what's about to be done. I mean, it could be many other things. Like, um uh again, there's uh, you know, again, there's a therapy, there's, you know, now just sitting a l sitting alone, right? Sitting alone, uh, taking care of my physical health, which has been great. You know, I feel good. Uh um, and then like, oh, and then like being prepared. Like, I, you know, I remember uh there was a point in time in my life of like feeling feeling really depressed. Uh I think I was like, you know, I don't know, I forget I forget, like 18, 19, probably, 19, like, and my room was always a mess. My room was always a mess. And like, like now, the I I I you know, it's it's not a mess, right? Like it's not it I I can look around my my space and be like, oh yeah, like everything is in this place and this walking into that. So taking care of things that you know could get things like hygiene, that's super important. Like all these things that like uh could could could could get you in a rut. I'm I I I'm just aware of that for myself. I'm just more self-aware, I think. That's that's that's it. You know, you uh you I'm I'm more mature. My frontal lobe is fully developed.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

You brought up counseling, so right? I think that's something to normalize as well, not only as a man, but as a black man to ch not only choose it, to give it a chance and to commit to it. Um did you do that on your own or did you have people kind of in your support group that got you there?

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Yeah, no, I've always been in uh I've always have had therapy, um, especially working in the field, right? Like, you know, again, like if you're working in human services, you're taking on all these people's trauma, and so you're gonna need you need to figure it out. Um at one point, though, during the the like my divorce process, like I was going to therapy and just like sharing, like, oh, here's the latest email, like here's you know, like that thing, like searching for validation um and not doing work. And it took me a moment because I remember uh specifically sitting in a circle of of men and and and like um uh they were sharing their stories, right? And I was I was crying for them. I was like, oh man, like I feel for that dude and I feel for that dude. And then when it got to my story, I'm like, yep, this is me, and realized like I wasn't feeling because all I was doing was seeking validation because everything that I've done was was being used against me. And like it's like don't be angry, don't do this, don't do that. And so like I was like just shoving shit down, you know, to not I was just shoving shit down. And so so the only thing that was doing therapy was like, oh yeah, here's this email. But now, like, in you know, I've I've is it's like actual work, you know. This is actual work, like understanding like, oh, this thing is happening in my life, how how does it connect to this, this, and this part, and like figure and doing and doing that work to solve it? And I think that's where that's where I'm headed, where where what I've been doing, which has been great. Um, and I shared that with a bunch of men, a bunch of fathers. I'm like, listen, like, let's not just come to this group and share it. Like, I I think somebody, I mean, everyone does this now in the cliche, right? Like, if you're pointing at someone, there's three fingers pointing back at you. Like I've known, I've been doing that for over 20 years, plus years, you know, in the being an outdoor educator and stuff. So yeah, like accountability, right? Accountability to yourself about what's going on. Like, let's not like you can't control what that person's doing. You also can't control what baggage they have. Let's start, let's just let's unpack your stuff, right? It's okay. You can say like this person did this, but let's really like it takes two. In relationships, it takes two. It takes two to destroy them, it takes two to make them great, it takes two to like make them work. And so, you know, I'm sitting in the battlefield at a table waiting for this person to show up so that we can so that we can just move move forward. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 47:44

So um I'm curious about Dad Guild. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Oh, yeah. So, Dad Guild, we are Northern Wing's largest fatherhood community, and we offer our mission is to support and empower fathers by offering opportunities for connection, education, and community engagement. So that's our mission. Uh we offer, we have four different program areas, uh Dads Only, which is our peer support network, um, dads and kids, whole family events, and then caregiver education. So we do that all looks different. We offer over 300 plus programs a year throughout events a year through all those four program areas. And uh what we're doing is addressing mental health and lonely and male loneliness and uh gender equity and equality, um, vulnerability, modeling it in ways that is uh uh taking a less formal approach. Most fatherhood programs uh are geared towards uh are punitive. And so this you know, when I talk about it's funny because when I talk to somebody like, oh yeah, I know this person who was just this, I'm like, no, no, no, this is open for any dad, anybody, it could be an uncle. If you are if you're a caregiver, a male caregiver, right? Like your grandpa's. And so um uh, you know, these things are informal events where we can start stop in the middle of of a of a board game and say, hey, like, let's do a quick rosebud thorn, you know? Um, and uh, or you know, and then they and then conversations about what's going on or happen happening organically. So like some men haven't been to the doctor in a really long time. Some men haven't been to a doc to the dentist in a really long time. And so when you have men reaching out in our our social media saying, hey, like I'm looking for a therapist, or I need uh what medical doctor do you go to, or I'm looking for a couples therapist, like we know that it like we're having an impact. Um, not only on on those individuals, but also on their children and their partners and their wives and their and like it's generational. Like when kids are seeing their fathers asking for help or being part of their lives in a way, like it's it's making a huge impact, which is why like I'm so passionate about this work, about this work. It's like, man, I'm going through all of this. Like everybody else is, we're all going through something. I'm going through all of this stuff, and still being able to show up for like other dads and their families and their children, it just it's it's rewarding. It feels good. Like, why would I be doing this work if like this narrative is happening? Like, I'm not doing this work to like counteract the narrative. I'm doing this work because like this is in my heart, right? It's in my heart, and I love the people I work with, my team, what we're doing, uh, all the things.

SPEAKER_02 50:15

When brilliant to create something that allows you to include your children, right? Like what your children are involved in your work.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

Yes. In what you do. Yep. Yeah, like we did a we did a podcast. Like we I I happen to have cop podcast equipment. We did a podcast because they were homesick. And I'm like, you know what? This might be a good opportunity because like I'm not the only parent who has to stay home with their sick kids. So like they had a great time doing that. Like, or you know, every Tuesday night evening, we play basketball and I bring the boys and they're like interacting with these other dads, and like they know all their names, and I can't never remember their names. They're like, Oh, I'm like, who's that? Who's that? And so, and they're like, I'm like, maybe I should be tossing the ball at my kids. But like, it's fine if they're tossing with other men, dads that they trust and that I trust and all these things. So, yeah, it's it's fun. It's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_04 51:02

And how do we how do people find this? Is it a website or something we can put in our show notes?

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Yeah, so you can find dad guild at dadguild.org. We're also on uh we have a what's we we have um a Facebook group uh called at Dad Guild. We are on Instagram at Dad Guild, um, we have a Discord, we have a WhatsApp, uh a WhatsApp community in different like different things, like if you're biking, biking, running, games, like Dungeons and Dragons, like we have subcommunities within our WhatsApp communities, so anything that anybody wants to be do or be a part of, right? We can have, you know, you can sign up for our newsletter. You don't have to go to an event, you can be a flying wall and watch from afar or listen to our podcast. Uh it's called Dad Pod at Dad Guild or a Dad Guild Podcast, and that's almost all streaming platforms. Like there's edge, there's uh, there's and we cover a wide range of topics, right? From from from being home at Sick with Dad to uh we just released an episode on um on mental health and mental health urgent care. Uh we have an episode being released soon on um IVF, um sex after related sex after children. Like there's just a wide range environment stuff, uh consent. Uh yeah, so this there's uh a lot going on there that people can access and not actually that people can access.

SPEAKER_04 52:21

And how do you have so much time in the country is crazy?

SPEAKER_00 52:29

No caffeine. No caffeine.

SPEAKER_04 52:31

Oh my goodness, I would not survive.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

Well, yeah, I'm uh I Mandy, I am a veteran, so like you know, we that's that's part of it. That's that's it, too. We didn't even talk about that stuff. So yeah, that that's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

And yeah, looking at time, I wanna be sure to well one what is s some advice you may give to someone who is you when you were 16, 17. I think what you shared, you had to be very grown and make some really big decisions. And you were also provided opportunity, right? The boarding school, um, the scholarship and so forth. I hear your your gratitude and growth within your experience, but also for just a young person, 16, 17, what could have been given to you at that time that would have been more helpful, or or how could we be helpful for a 16 or 17 year old presenting with kind of the same circumstance?

SPEAKER_00 53:39

Yeah, um when I think about that um I would say it's okay to like it's okay to mess up. It's okay to mess up. You know, I had I had some expectations of of like going to college and doing well, and you know, I would remember I was like, oh yeah, I'm doing great, knowing I wasn't going to class in some cases. So it's okay to like mess up and but just be and just be honest about that stuff. Um I would say um it's okay to say no and and and and there's always people willing to help. There's there's always someone willing to help. Um you just don't, you know, that's that's it. Like asking for help, it's it's not a a big deal. Um I ask for help all the time. Um and I think more importantly is like as a 16, 17 year old, like your brain's still developing, you know. You don't you don't know who you you don't you still don't know who you who you truly are at that point in time.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

Not to give up, right? Not to go inward.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

Yep. Don't give up. Uh never give up. Uh this is my one of favorite one of my favorite songs is never give up. Um and yeah, and just and just and and things are gonna be hard. Like nothing is easy. You know, I I could have given up and not have my kit my children. I could have given up and succumbed to all the the the narratives. I could have been like, you know what, like I can't take it anymore. I could have given up by by reacting to all of that and that and I didn't. And so I it's it's just really just staying true to who you are and um and and oh another thing is like you never know who's watching you, right? You never know who when I say who's watching you, in a way that you're inspiring them. Like you never know. Like there are people like, oh yeah, like I really like how that person flip kicks that skateboard, you know, and you don't know that or if you're doing whatever. It's it's so you never know. So like that's I think that's a big part. You you you you inspire people even though you don't you don't think you do. If you may not think you do, but you do. You know. So yeah. Well, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 55:43

I love that. And you are inspiring, Marlin. I've to watch you over the years kind of push through, persevere, and also create amazing spaces for men and individuals uh who are doing amazing work. I am also so glad for both your boys to have you as a father and to have you as an example. Um and it's been a pleasure having you here on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 56:08

Thank you, Crystal.

SPEAKER_04 56:09

Can I echo Crystal? Thank you so much for being here. Um It was really great talking to you.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Thank you, Mandy.