From Excuses to Execution: T.J. Holloway on What It Takes to WIN By 100

In this episode of Lead The Fine Print, T.J. Holloway challenges listeners to rethink what it truly takes to achieve meaningful success. Drawing from years of experience as a leadership consultant, coach, educator, and researcher, he explains why many people fall short of their goals, not because they lack talent, intelligence, or opportunity, but because they never become serious enough about the things that matter most.

The conversation explores self-awareness, accountability, motivation, and the discipline required to turn intentions into results. T.J. introduces the MADE framework, discusses why leaders must understand how others experience them, and shares practical strategies for improving focus, setting priorities, and creating the kind of commitment that drives lasting success. Along the way, he challenges common leadership assumptions and explores the difference between wanting to win and making the decision to win.

Whether you are leading a team, building a business, pursuing a personal goal, or trying to become a better version of yourself, this episode offers practical insights you can put into action right away. T.J. invites listeners to examine where they may be settling for good intentions instead of real commitment and to consider what might change if they became fully invested in the outcomes they say they want.

If you have ever struggled to stay motivated, follow through on your goals, or maintain focus on what matters most, this conversation will challenge and encourage you. It is a thoughtful reminder that success is often less about doing more and more about getting serious about the things that truly matter.

To purchase Win By 100: https://us.amazon.com/Win-100-Confidence-Without-Powered-ebook/dp/B0GTMPSHS1

For Holloway Group Consulting Services: https://themadeleader.com/

Transcript

Welcome 0:00

Welcome to Lead the Fine Print, a podcast that looks at leadership with more depth, more nuance, and more honesty than what usually makes the front page. Here we talk with leaders from across industries, people shaping culture, guiding teams, and doing the kind of work that doesn't always get noticed, but always makes a difference. We're not here for surface level bites. We are here for the fine print. The context, the choices, the quiet truths behind how leadership really happens. The big moments get headlines, but the real insights, they live in the margins. This is Lead the Fine Print.

Host 0:44

Well, good morning, TJ. I am over the moon to be able to sit with you today. There are so many great pieces that I cannot wait for our listeners to hear about from you. And I'm not even sure where to start, but welcome to Lead the Fine Print. I'm really glad you're here.

Guest 1:00

I am very excited to be here. Like wicked happy to see you again. To see you in this space, lead the fine print. I love the name of it. And just looking forward to a really good conversation.

Host 1:10

Let's start out, if you will, when you were going through college and trying to figure out and navigate where your career might go. Where were some of the places you stopped along the way?

Guest 1:21

Wow. Okay, so college was like a long time ago. I I don't know. I I guess I kind of fell into the position that I'm in now. I did so many different things. I'm starting out working action juvenile corrections at a place called Stonewall Jackson School in North Carolina, um, which kind of paved the way for my first job when I when I finally got to Maine. 1999, the day after my father's birthday, I moved to Maine. And because of my only occupational experience being in juvenile corrections in North Carolina, I wound up doing the same thing while I was uh in Maine working at the Maine Center, Long Creek Youth Development Center, I think it is now. And then I just worked for a series of different, you know, nonprofit organizations. I had a bleeding heart. I wanted to save the world, I wanted to help every child, all the things. And eventually I decided to go back to school and get a little more education. Wound up working at Huston because somebody gave me a great tip that if you work at the university, they oftentimes will discount your tuition, which is true. And so I worked at Huston. I started working there as a resident director of uh of Hart Hall. It was good times, it was good education, great people over at Huston. They have a lot to do with um, I would say, my upbringing as an adult and as a professional. I would say the majority of the stops in my life that have been that led me up into a place of, you know, actually working um in academia and in leadership.

Host 2:50

When you when you talk about um some lessons that you learned there and probably being an athlete and being a resident director, but where would you say you came to understand leadership? Like, where did that start to develop for you?

Guest 3:06

You know, honestly, it's more in what you don't see than in what you do see. When you have a desire for something and you're not getting that, like you think about your own managers that you've had in your own life, the leaders that you've had in your own life. You know, there's a thin line between fear and respect. And, you know, working in places like a youth center or in corrections where it really is a military model where you have, you know, sergeants and, you know, yada, yada, yada. Command and control doesn't feel good. Um, it kind of puts you in a situation where if you want to pursue that as a career, you have to climb that ladder. And the way to get there is not really what leadership looks and feels like or should look and feel like. So I saw a lot of people who were leading in ways that didn't feel good and didn't really seem like solid leadership to me. And that's what I would say is really my introduction into really being curious as to what leadership is supposed to be. And that curiosity is what drove me to want to study it, want to interview people and find out what they were thinking about and pick their brain about what leadership actually should be when you're doing it right. I would say it's more or less what I didn't see than what I did see.

Host 4:28

There probably were some folks along the way that you would reflect on now, thinking um as maybe a mentor or had an impact on the growth in who you are today. Would you maybe name a couple of them?

Guest 4:42

Mentors? I got a dozen of them. I'm sure. Now, I would say for mentorship, I look for people who have a specified knowledge, specified ability. Because it did like I have spiritual leaders in my life that I wouldn't allow to touch other parts of my life, right? Um, but for that feature in my life, they're critically important. Uh Kirk Winners, love him and his mentorship. Listen to him and every word that he has to say. Um, my father, Johnny Holloway, of course I love him. That's my hero. Um look up to him, respect him, love the example that he put in my life. Great mentorship, even to this day. Dr. Chris Lee, man, like that's the first person that I would say I looked at and said, you know what, I want to be just like him. Aside from my father, right? So so I was working for Department of Health and Human Services, and they needed someone to be a part of a group, um, the Diversity Hiring Coalition. I worked as a part of that coalition pretty much as an intern. I was younger, didn't really know much about what I was doing. But first meeting, I see this guy, um and he doesn't say much. But he's listening, right? He's focused, he's pretty intense, but laid back at the same time. It's hard to describe. But then when he started to talk, everybody listened. And he he spoke in this way where you just knew that he knew exactly what he was talking about. He's very confident, and he just gave you a lot of confidence because of the confidence that he had. And I was just like, wow, you know, I want to be just like this guy. And so I began to pay attention to his moves and see, you know, what he was doing in his professional career. And I asked him, can I help somehow? What are the things that I can do to kind of help you along? I just wanted to be around. You know, if you hang around a barbershop for long enough, one day you're gonna get a haircut, right? And so I just want to hang out, hang around. And uh, he eventually took me under his wing in a number of ways, Shogun DeRoakes. And he's an author. He was a professor at Bates College. He also worked as a CHRO at Bates College. And I just got to, I got my first real experience, firsthand experience, with someone who I really looked up at as a leader, a real leader in every facet of the word. So he's one of my he's one of my favorite mentors. And then now, you know, being in this space and working as a consultant, a lot of the leadership groups and CEOs, C-suites, you come in contact with some really awesome people. And the nature of my work is we have conversations, much like this one, where people really talk their heart and they talk about who they are. You get introduced to them not just as you know corporate people, but also as family people, and see other facets of their life. And I love to see leaders who not just lead in the corporate space, but also lead in their homes as well. So I got some some great mentors. Some of you you probably read about Bob Montgomery Rice, Larry Barker, just a number of really awesome people. When I was working at Hussin, my third time, right? I was teaching in the uh college of business, and probably the favorite boss I've ever had in my life, best manager I've ever had in my life, Marie Hansen. So much love and respect for her. Just a great example of what it means to fight for your people, like a real leadership, right? And so um mentors, man, I probably got a thousand of them. I could go on forever. I hate to leave anybody out, but that that's probably a a good place to pause on that one.

Host 8:41

I know how humble you are. So it will probably come as a surprise, maybe it won't, that I consider you one of mine in the sense that we connected many years ago. We sat and had a cup of coffee because you were you were in the space where I was hoping to go in that consulting. I was just so drawn to understanding what made really good leaders good leaders, right? Much like yourself, I had seen many models of poor leadership. And and I knew that I didn't want to do that, but how do I pick apart all of the really great things that I knew were out there and great leaders and pull them together so that I could share that with other people? And you know, I I can think of a million things that you could have said to me when I sat with you for coffee. Um and I said, Hey, you know what? I kind of like to do what you're doing. Can we get in this space? And you're like, You don't need me. And for the first time ever, someone said, like, go, go do your thing. Instead of trying to capture what I was doing and bring that along and sort of roll that into whatever they were already doing in an organization. You were like, No, I mean, I'll help you along the way, but you don't need me. And and for me, it it just always stuck with me as a way to one build confidence and and teach people that you can go do the thing. Just go do it, right? Figure it out and I'll help you, which I think was the most valuable piece. Like, you didn't say no, you know, you can't be part of what we're doing. It was like, I'll help you, but you don't need me. Go go do it. And so to sit back here with you today means so much to me. And to be able to talk about your book, which I cannot wait to do. But there are a few other questions I want to get to first. I truly want to say thank you for for giving me the nudge out of the nest to say just go figure out and go do it. Um, and since then we've had many conversations in depth about leadership and motivation and career paths and all of those things. And I'm really grateful.

Guest 10:30

I can honestly say it is a pleasure. Um, I just try to do for people what people did for me. A lot of it is mindset and how you see yourself, how you think of yourself. Once you get clear that you don't always have to have perfect confidence or perfect ability. A lot of times it's just action. Tell people, you know, it's it's Nike, baby. Just do it, right? Don't try to do it. Just go out and do it. Because if you put one foot in front of the other, you know what? You're gonna make progress. That's how it goes. So a lot of times it's just, you know, it's just launching, right? It's launching and and having a right mindset and continuing forward. So I'm happy to be a part of your journey. You're definitely a part of mine, and uh, let's keep tracking.

Host 11:16

Thank you. That's great. Well, along the way with having great mentors, they're, as you mentioned, and I I have seen myself, the sort of poor behavior, poor actions, poor leadership. One example that you could think of that you'd be able to share in a story without mentioning names, of course, but in a story format of something that really stuck with you of that is not how it should go.

Guest 11:40

Yeah, you know, I I actually see it a lot. It's part of what my my job role is, is to kind of work with people to A become aware of what the issues are, B, acknowledge, okay, I have some hand in this, you know, I have some opportunities. And then C get into action and and making some changes. I think one that's most notable, uh I actually mentioned in Win by 100, um, was a leader that I came in contact with. And the first words out of his mouth just threw me for a loop. He says, I want you to fix my leadership team. That's not how it works. You know, the first thing I think every leader needs to understand is that you are a part of the team. You're a member of the team. And when you're casting blame on other people to say, hey, those people need to be fixed, what that's also saying is that I'm good. I'm okay. They're the problem. And so it just became abundantly clear that this was a person that was not willing to take responsibility or even look in the mirror. I think any leader that falls down, they fall down twice. The second one is the one that we see publicly. The first one is the mindset that they possess. The first one was the decision to do or say the thing that they said that turned the situation on its ear, right? And so um, anytime you find a leader who is unwilling to look at themselves or really struggles with self-awareness, I think you're gonna run into very poor leadership. It's impossible to be a good leader and not have excellent self-awareness.

Host 13:21

We talk about that in the book as well.

Guest 13:23

Oh, I talk about that everywhere I go. That's that because that's that's the starting point. You know, and and really being able to understand what self-awareness is. Most people have a misconception about what it is in the first place. You know, it it's not self-awareness, is self-awareness, is not me understanding myself. No, it's me understanding the way other people experience me. Not how I want to come across, but how do I actually come across? And most people are not willing to even ask those questions. Don't want to look in the mirror, refuse to look in the mirror to find out, you know, well, how does my wife experience me? Who wants to ask that question? You know? Um, or how do my kids experience me? Well, your kids know. You don't know. You think you know, and that's a part of the problem. I think it was uh Mark Twain says, it ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know for sure. It just ain't so. And that's the biggest problem with self-awareness, is that we think we know ourselves and we actually don't. Any leader that's going to struggle with self-awareness or is not even motivated to look at themselves as potentially being a part of the issue, I always struggle with those people. And I try to uh I try to be straight with those people.

Host 14:40

You went from being in the consulting world and along that way, not sure how, with a family and balancing all of the things, decide you're going to get your doctorate in leadership as well.

Guest 14:54

Thanks to Marie. Yeah.

Host 14:56

Liberty University, phenomenal program. Congratulations on completing that.

Speaker 2 15:01

Thank you.

Host 15:02

And in doing that, you also created an assessment. You want to talk a little bit about that?

Guest 15:08

Yeah, the assessment is is, I don't know, it's probably my favorite part. You know, as a part of the DBA program at Liberty, one of the things that there is a requirement is that in your dissertation, that you also include some form of an assessment. And so I got my feet wet in creating an assessment. And let me tell you, that is not easy. The people who create those where they're actually helpful to people, you know, it's not just a box to check, but it's actually helpful. It's it's a lot of science to it. It's a lot of work to it. And so our assessment is really designed to look at um the attributes of leadership that are most critical. Um, integrity. You know, at the end of the day, you see integrity on a lot of people's, you know, walls in the organization's conference room. But if you ask people what it is, they really can't tell you. You know, it it's it's essentially what we do at 2 a.m. and understanding that that matters. You know, if you look at the word integrity and you look at the word integer, it's very similar. It comes from the same root. You know, an integer is a whole number. Like two is an integer, three is an integer, 2.5 is not an integer. And so integrity means that you are a whole person. That means you're not one way when you're with your grandma and a different way when you're with your friends, one way when you're in charge, and one way when you are following, right? It means that you are the same person um all the time. And so we measure integrity in people and allow people to measure integrity inside themselves. We look at things like emotional intelligence. You know, emotional intelligence is uh, it starts with self-awareness, it ends with managing relationships. And it's no longer something that's nice to have, it's something that we must have. Those are words that come from Dan Goldman and his book Primal. Um, we measure, uh we measure things like communication, of course. Like you can't be a good leader and not communicate well. So we measure things like effective communication. And how good are we at getting the messages that are in our head out into other people's heads so that it can actually become useful and actually do the work it's designed to do. And so I won't get all the way into it, but we have non-attributes of leadership that we that we measure, metrisize, we allow people to gain some self-awareness. Um, the other thing is that it's uh it's got two, it's got two uses, this assessment. The first one is uh I call it a pure test retest. And so I can take it the first time, I can read the book, I can do the work, and then I can come back a few months later, I can take it again and see how I've grown, uh how stagnated, or maybe how I've regressed, right? But that gives me some more information. The other way I can use it is I can take it, and then I can have my friend Buffy take it as well about me. And I can compare and contrast how I see myself with the way Buffy sees me, which gives us a lexicon to have a conversation about how I lead, as well as shows any contrast in the way that you see me and the way that I see me, which gives me better self-awareness. So it's a phenomenal tool. Um, it's I'll also say it's still a tool that's in process. Uh, the more people who do it, uh the more information we get, the more opportunities to improve it. So I really see this, you know, being something that is active and in process and constantly changing more and becoming better over the week.

Host 18:32

Well, I really appreciate the ability to have other people take it. Because to your point, if leaders think they understand who they are, but how do we capture? I mean, if I just ask you how you feel about me, right, I may not get a completely clear picture, in particular if I'm your leader, right? If if you report directly to me or vice versa. And so this allows for a space to be able to provide that feedback for that self-reflection, self-understanding in in a really great way. Let's talk about the book. I can't wait. Okay. Let's let's let's get into it. I'll share the link so that folks can purchase it. Talk to me about how it came about. How did you decide this is what you wanted to do?

Guest 19:15

This has been in my head for years. It came about actually quite similar to what we're doing right now. I was being interviewed by a HR magazine. They were asking me about what it is that I do. And I did the interview, I gave the responses, and after it was done, I wish I had a do-over. Like I just felt like I didn't do a good job. I didn't do a good job of explaining what I do, which sounds ridiculous, but I know what I do, but I can't explain what I do. And that's a problem. So I was thinking about it all day long. You know, while I was grilling, voice recording myself to make sure next time I'm in a situation, I know how to respond. I'm talking to my wife about it. She helps me work out a lot of things that's in my head. And then that night, I was actually, I was in the shower, and it just came to me. Like the best way to really describe what I do. And it's like, I call it, I call it the kitchen. Like when you go into a nice restaurant, you don't get brought in through the kitchen.

unknown 20:20

Right?

Guest 20:20

They bring you through the front door. But the kitchen is where the magic happens. That's where they make, you know, the delicious meal for you. That's where they concoct the beautiful drink for you. And so I was like, you know what? I gotta, I have to expose people to the kitchen. I have to expose people to how we actually do what we do. When we're in the process of helping a leader or helping a team or helping an organization to go from good to great or to get some of the mud out of the water to clean things up. I've always had a process that's in mind. I've always had some background thinking that occurs that I don't say out loud, but I know where I'm going with this thing. And so it just occurred to me the steps that have to occur. Now, first, the person has to be motivated. That's what starts. You can't motivate anybody to do anything they don't want to do. At the end of the day, people are going to do whatever they want to do. Um, and so it started with motivation. And when a person is not motivated, well, I can incentivize them to motivate themselves. But at the end of the day, and you'll see this several times in the book, all motivation is self-motivation. And so once I have a person who's motivated, and some of my coaching clients will come to me, they'd be very motivated to do something about the reason that we're working together, very motivated. Others would not be. And the ones who are not, you know what? More times than not, that is a huge hurdle to get over. And many times it doesn't work out well. And so, motivation, after the person is motivated, we figure out a way to assess them, which is the reason why we have the assessment that we were just talking about. And so sometimes assessment, like Like a leadership assessment. Sometimes it's an emotional intelligence assessment. Sometimes it's a communication assessment. Sometimes it's just a good, strong, honest look in the mirror. Right? But it's finding out how other people experience you, assessing yourself. After a person, a motivated person has assessment data, they're dangerous. Now imagine what if an unmotivated person had assessment data? It's useless. It'll be on a bookshelf in a matter of days, and they're gonna go back and do all what they always did. Right. And so that's why the steps are so important. Motivation, assessment. Now, after the person is assessed in some way, this is a big one. They have to make a declaration. You gotta say out loud, this is how I intend to change. You gotta tell people, yeah, I've learned some things about myself, and this is what you could expect to see from me moving forward. You gotta say it out loud. Like you gotta tell people. No, when you have a goal, you don't tell anybody. Are you successful?

Host 22:59

Not usually.

Guest 23:00

Not usually. No, as a matter of fact, I always say if someone has a goal and they keep it to themselves, that just that just tells me that they plan to cheat. That's the goal. Like if I'm going on a diet, Buffy, I'm gonna call you up and say, hey, I'm going on a diet, I'm not having carbs for two weeks, right? I'm gonna tell you all these things. I'm gonna tell people I don't know. I'm going on a diet. So when they see me holding a donut, they can they can smack it out of my hand, right? It builds in some accountability. And so one of the things that I see happen a lot corporately is people will develop these goals, and it's almost like it's a secret. Like, because what if I get caught not reaching my goal? What if people see me doing something that you know doesn't necessarily match with the values that I said that I possess? Oh boy. Right? And so to keep those things to themselves, and I say, no, you have to declare, you have to say out loud, this is who I'm going to become. And so I start telling people in 2023, I'm gonna write this book right here. Before I wrote a word, I told people in 2025, I'm gonna have a book that's gonna become I start telling people. That's a declaration. And so because I don't want to look like Boo Boo the Fool, you know what it does? It forces me to start working on this thing I said I want to do. And so declaration is so important. And then E is execution. I have to execute on what you declared. And so this all kind of came to me that these are the steps that people have to take. And the fact that it turned into motivation, assessment, declaration, execution, made was was all almost by accident. Like it it just kind of worked out that way. And then it also occurred to me that if a person doesn't execute on what they declared, they're just mad, not made.

Host 24:50

Fantastic.

Guest 24:52

And well, let me clarify, mad in the sense of being delusional. Because if you think you can tell people, hey, I'm I'm gonna do better this way, and then not do better in that way, and you expect people to still honor you and keep you in high esteem, you're delusional, right? And so other people are mad that you said you're gonna do something you didn't do, but you'd be mad as in delusional by expecting people to still hold you in high regard, but not change.

Host 25:22

So many things I want to unpack that are so great in this. Um, for a moment, can we pause to the declaration you shared with me recently that you put together a group just prior to the holidays? Yeah. In trying to accomplish some things. Would you mind sharing? How did that come about? How did it work out?

Guest 25:41

It's good. So I uh uh frequently, probably once or twice a year, I'll just, and it happens so random. I'll just be sitting on my couch saying, you know what? I want to do something. Right. And so I'll just start texting a few buddies and say, hey, I'm gonna do this. Are you in? I'm gonna do this. Are you in? And before I knew it, I had four or five guys that were willing to be in on, not tell you about it in a minute, be in on this thing. And I said, no, let's let's make this bigger. And so I found 30 people who are willing to be in on my challenge. Now, we started this challenge on December 6th. December 6th. We went all the way into the end of January. I refused to start anything on January 1st. When's the last time somebody started something on January 1st and it stopped? It just doesn't. They have uh what National Quitters Day for a reason. You know, the second Friday after January 1st. Most people's New Year's resolutions are dead and buried. I had decided that it's been cold outside for a while. I need to start moving a little bit more. So I'm gonna do 200 push-ups every single day and 50 sit-ups every day. And that's what we started on December 6th. I had 30 people start, I had 29 finish. All right. I won't tell you who didn't make it with us, but you know, that's between me and him, and we'll we'll take it up another time. Right. But the first step was motivation. You got to be motivated to do it. We did the 200 push-ups, uh the 50 push-ups every day. And so one of the things that was also one of the kind of bylaws, if you will, is if you miss a day, you gotta speak up and you gotta tell us. That that really builds in accountability. And and here's the thing is that I could miss a day and tell nobody, but you know what? I have to live with the fact that I missed a day and I didn't tell people like I was supposed to tell people. That makes it difficult. That that challenges your integrity if that's where you land, right? We had a number of people who said, you know what, I I didn't make it this day. But you know what? More times than not, they found a way to make it up the following day. On January 1st, it was supposed to end. But I put up a video saying, okay, let's take this to another level. I'm gonna keep doing these 200 push-ups and 50 setups. As a matter of fact, we're gonna add one. We're doing 201 and 51 with the idea that you should always do a little bit more than you have to do. Just a little bit more. That's just a good mindset to have. And then we also added we're gonna fast something that we like. You gotta tell yourself no about something that you like, which is important. My next book is actually gonna be about that. It's called the The Four Pillars of Winning. So I can tell you about that in a moment. But we we had to fast something that we were not gonna do for at least that month. That was step two, on top of what we were already doing. And so we had some people who said, you know what, I'm not gonna drink coffee. I would never do that. Right? Those people are crazy. We had some people say, I'm not gonna get on social media. Always in the back of your mind when something has you, right? A little more than you desire for it, too. Like we know when we're scrolling Instagram just for no reason, and we feel like I'm sick of scrolling Instagram. There's nothing even on here for me to look at it. But we just keep doing it. And so the practice of being able to tell ourselves, no, it's just it's just really important. And so now we're doing the 200 push-ups, we're motivated, right? We're doing the 50 setups, we did the fast. And then step three was when we got to January 31st, the last day, is for them to turn it around and they become the leader of a new group. And so they found, you know, 10 people or so that have not been a part of this group. And I got great feedback from that. And a number of those people were actually doing it.

Host 29:35

And maybe it was intentional. But when you think about the the group that you created, that sense of community that we often get pulled apart from. And hearing you then say that the challenge at the end was to then create another community beyond that. It seems as though in the current culture that we live in, we lack that sense of community. And so good on you for creating something that not only was for individuals to make some changes and do some things to self-improve, but also to be part of a community doing just that.

Guest 30:12

Yeah, it was great. We fought we found out after the fact that a lot of these guys they knew each other all along from some some from childhood, you know, rekindled some relationships. That was it was really cool. It was really awesome. That's fun. And kudos to all those, everybody who made it through. All 29. 29. All right, not 30, all 29.

Host 30:32

I feel like you're gonna share this podcast just to let them know. You know, and now I know everybody listening knows that they did not meet the 30. The book is so great on so many levels. Again, I just want to reiterate it is win by a hundred, TJ Holloway. I really want to kick off and talking about why it is, because I myself personally feel this in why you open with talking about why we struggle to say we want to win. Upon reflection and reading your book, thought back to where did my drive to set goals and reach them and then go beyond, where did that come from? But why is it that we struggle to either not talk about it or try to rein it in? Can you talk to me a little bit about where that's at for you? And I mean, it's a great opening for the book.

Guest 31:18

Well, I can I can say I think all of us want to win. I think it's inside of all of us. Like if you don't want to win, then there's something wrong with you. We won't we have that desire. But somewhere along the way, society tells us to squash that like you can't, you just can't say it out loud because it's gonna hurt somebody else's feelings. You know, the idea is that if if you win, that means somebody else has to lose. And that's, you know, in in in some ways difficult to say out loud because it implies that you want other people to lose. Now, I I don't want other people to lose. I want other people to win too, right? It's just one of those things that's built into society, and we see a lot of it now. I opened the book with a story about my son Jackson and his soccer team, uh, second grade wreck, and they don't keep score, and it drives them absolutely crazy. And I don't blame it, right? I don't blame it. Like you want to know if you worked hard and you were focused and you were driven, you want to know that effort meant something. You want to see that it led to a desired result. You want to see that you were able to win as a as a result of it. It doesn't mean that you want other people to lose. I don't want other people to lose, but I do want to win. And so saying that out loud, I think a lot of society won't let you say it as boldly because of what it implies. It implies that there has to be a clear winner. If there's a clear winner, then there's a clear loser as well, right? And people don't want to, you know, allow that language to prevail. So I think it just we begin to naturally police ourselves, police our own language to say, you know, I really want to do well in this, right? I really want to, I want to compete hard. And I'm saying, no, frig die. I want to win, right? And you know, I I won't give away exactly where one by 100 comes from, but it's a great story, it's in the book. Um, but it's okay to want to win. But how you win, yeah, that definitely matters, you know? Like we have to win by treating treating people well. We have to, we have to win while having dignity for other people without gloating, right? Without ego, having that desire to win. I'm just trying to tell people, probably remind some people, that it's totally okay to want to win, that you should have that desire. You should go after the 100%.

Host 33:53

It comes full circle for me. Again, I don't want this to keep coming back to me, but when you say that you want other people to win too, the perfect example of that is our first coffee session with you saying you want to do what I'm doing, go do it. Not, well, you can't do that because I'm in that space where other people would say that. And and you didn't, you said, go do it, if I may. I would like to read. Talked about made and what that stands for. And I am I'm so grateful because it is woven into so many stories of the book. Why this resonated so well is not only do you share success stories from leaders in the book and your experience in working with them, but also some of the grit and grind and failure of leaders in real stories in this book. Can you talk a little bit about why that was the path you chose instead of just celebrating the success and talking about some of those losses too?

Guest 34:46

Yeah, everybody talks about being at the peak of the mountain, but nobody talks about decline. And I think it's important to pull the curtain back and to see what the whole journey was like. Um, nobody's success is a straight line, you know, vertical from bottom to the top. There are pauses in that, there are breaks in that. There's tragedy in that, right? And so if we're going to talk about the triumph, we we got to talk about the tragedy too. If not, we give people this false perception that getting to the top is easy, or it only happens for the fortuitous or for rich kids, right? No, it it can happen for anybody who's able to put the right steps in order, right? And so that's what made us really about. It's about putting those right steps in order, ensuring that you hit everyone, that you don't cheat yourself, you don't skip steps, because that never works, or rarely works, I should say never is a strong word. But it's ensuring that we know that what we desire to do is probably possible. I I do my best not to sugarcoat things in in in this book or in my conversations. A lot of cliches that are out there are just not true. Like, like your mother probably told you, you can do whatever you set your mind to. No, that's not true. That is not true. But you can do something. And you can do something really, really well. You just have to make sure that you focus your energy and your attention on the right things, right? And use your energy and attention to climb a mountain that you were designed to climb, right? And so um I think that putting that system out there for people to be able to see, okay, I'm currently at step one. This is what I'm working on. Okay, now now I'm at step two. This is what I need to do. People need a systematic approach to winning, right? Um, a step-by-step approach to winning. And that's the reason why I wrote the book, right? That put you in the kitchen, let you see how it actually works, and give you that systematic step-by-step approach that you know I'm doing the right things, I'm focused on.

Host 36:55

We have both read lots of literature on leadership, lots of phenomenal leadership books. We could spend the entire day talking about it.

Guest 37:05

Yeah.

Host 37:06

But one of my favorite things about this book in particular is that while those steps are in place, it also is an invitation to come back to the roots of that, right? It's gonna be step one, step two. Here's where you go. You said it earlier with the pretest, and then to be able to come back because the work is the journey. That's right. The work is the journey.

Guest 37:29

The work is the journey. I love that. That's good. Yeah.

Host 37:31

Well, that's you. That's not me. That's there was uh something else that really resonated with me that I wanted to talk about. In the motivation section of the book, you talk about a story, how someone brought to you talking about the difference between a dial and a switch. Yeah. Would you mind sharing that? It it resonated so much and from someone who lives in personality assessments and loves them to a T for all of the great things that they serve for us. But this just made it so simple to be able to have a dialogue with someone about that. Could you share?

Guest 38:06

Yeah, I wish the lady that that said it was here to because she said it so well. But the moment she said it, it was uh, I was doing a leadership seminar. She was kind of giving some some feedback on her. Like our leadership seminar, A, is phenomenal. B, it focuses a lot on self-leadership, not you know, and understanding yourself. And so she was reflecting on herself a little bit. She said, I'm a dial person, not a switch person. And she didn't have to explain anymore. Like, I got it instantly, right? I got it. But it really resonated with me because I've been trying to put myself um into the wrong basket for a long time. Like wondering why I can't just turn it on a little bit more for a few more people. Oh, I get it because I'm a switch person, right? Now, a a dial, think of it like like a like a thermometer or like a you know volume knob on a on a radio. You know, you you turn it slow and it has a number of places where it can um where where you can stop it, you know, what one to ten. Um some people warm up like that. You can they they turn up a little bit, they can turn back down.

unknown 39:16

Right?

Guest 39:16

They can turn up to a seven for this situation and then pull up back to a four for other situations. Me, I'm I'm 10x or zero, right? That's just that's just how it goes. I'm either on or I'm off. Um and just like a just like a light switch, it's either on or or it's off. And if you are a switch person and you are being managed by someone who expects you to be a dial, you're gonna struggle, right? And vice versa. You are a a dial person and you're being um you're in a relationship with someone who's uh who's a switch person, it just doesn't work that way. That's gonna lead to a lot of frustration, a lot of arguments, a lot of resentment, right? And so um what I'm getting at in that in that section is that we have to know who it is that we're dealing with. You have to know who you're relating to to make sure that you're you're you're thinking about this not as being a flaw, but as simply being a feature. Like I am a switch person. That is a feature of who I am. It's not a flaw. So I shouldn't look down on myself about that. I shouldn't feel bad about the fact that, you know what, when I'm done, I'm done. Most people would classify me, especially when they see me on stage or you know, doing a seminar, as being a classic extrovert. Well, I am not. Matter of fact, not even close. Right? Um, and so I can do those things, and my work requires a good deal of extroversion, and I give it. And I honestly I give it gladly, but when I'm done, man, I'm done. And it's hard to do anything else afterwards. And so I'm just trying to get people to have some empathy for um other people who don't necessarily move the way that they do, right? And uh, you'll find a lot of that. I find in a lot of love relationships, one person is a dial person and the other person is a switch person. And if there's no empathy for that, then it's going to create a lot of a lot of difficult situations and conversations. But the same thing is true corporately. If you're managing someone or being managed by someone who doesn't understand that, so it's a great conversation kickoff, great way to explain it to a person who needs to know. Okay, this is the way that I move, this is the way that I work, this is my feature. And let's talk about the best way to get the most out of it.

Host 41:35

For me, it's visual, right? I can see the switch and the dial turning up. As you say, most people will marry the opposite of them, right? My partner and I, he will say, She doesn't try to speed me up and I don't try to slow her down. And it is essentially that dial and switch, like one of us is just go, go, go, and the other is when it's off, it's off. But being able to bring that into the work environment in your team in a conversation that is easily accessible for people to understand. And I really, really appreciate that. If you would walk us into, you said your next book. You're already talking about your next book. So the four pillars of winning.

Guest 42:13

I think that's going to be the title. That's negotiable.

Host 42:15

Okay.

Guest 42:16

But it's it's the way that I see it. I just did a keynote last Friday, as a matter of fact, and I posed the question to the audience. I asked, what's the single most reason that most people don't achieve their goals? How would you answer that? Just out of curiosity. The single most reason that most people don't achieve their goals.

Host 42:39

I'm going to say accountability. And I recognize that as you were talking about telling people about the book, I realized that I had recorded several episodes of the podcast, but I wasn't releasing it because it's vulnerable to put a podcast out there.

Guest 42:54

Do it anyway.

Host 42:55

I had to start telling people I'm going to launch my podcast. I'm going to launch the podcast. It's going to happen in December. I'm launching the first. If I didn't, these wonderful conversations would still be sitting on a shelf.

Guest 43:08

You should you should pick up Jefferson Fisher's book, The Next Conversation.

Host 43:11

He's fantastic. That's how it starts. I haven't read his book, but I have read him on podcasts.

Guest 43:15

Yeah, he's a master. I love that dude. I think in very simple terms. You know, I don't think over simple, but very simple. The single most reason that people don't achieve their goals is they don't take them serious enough. That's just what it comes down to. Think about the last time that you got really serious about one of your goals. You did it, didn't you?

Host 43:37

I did.

Guest 43:38

Yeah. And so I'm willing to bet that since then there have been other goals that you've set for yourself that you didn't hit. For certain. Bingo. And so when you get as serious as a heart attack about doing something, you achieve it. You get it done. It becomes the priority of your life. There's nothing that's gonna hold you back from it. And so I'll I'll Looked at what goes into becoming serious about a goal, right? And I think I've uncovered the four pillars, like the four things that can get in a person's way. They all start with self. All right. The mountain is you, right? Every single time. You want to see the problem? Go look in the mirror. I can see both my best friend and my worst enemy just by looking in the mirror. Number one is self-awareness. That's the mountain right there, self-awareness. It's taking a time to really understand me and to understand what my opportunities are. Knowing how I can make a better contribution in a relationship. It's being willing to ask my wife, hey, listen, I'm on the quest to be the best husband I can be. I need your insight. How can I do that? You see, self-awareness is such a huge problem in relationships and corporately. Tasha Urick, she wrote a book called Insight, and she gives you some metrics on this, and it's pretty staggering. She says about 95% of people believe they're self-aware. She goes on to say the real number is more like 10 to 15%. You see how big that gap is? And so what you have is a bunch of people who feel like they understand the way they come across, they have no idea that's the problem. Now, once I do become self-aware, it's the next pillar, self-motivation. I have to be motivated to do something about it. I was coaching a gentleman, he was in a C-suite for an engineering fund, and he left them. This is the reason why. This is what he said. He says, My boss, he will go up one side of me and down the other. And he does this religiously. He told me he understands that he does this. He told me that he knows that he can be this way. And so it finally hit him. If he knows he can be this way and he's doing nothing about it, then this is never going to stop. So he can know about the problem, but not fix the problem. That's a problem. Right? And so we can be self-aware, but miss self-motivation. And we'll never change the problems that we have. So we have to be self-motivated to do something about these opportunities that we ponder ourselves. Now, once I'm self-motivated, that means I can start something. How many things have we started but not finished?

Host 46:41

I have a few on my list.

Guest 46:43

We start things, but we just don't see them grow. Jim Collins talks about how we oftentimes have a start doing list, but we don't have a stop doing this. Right? And so some things we got to stop doing to make space to do the thing that we say we really want to do if we're really serious about it. And so after self-motivation, it's self-discipline. I have to keep doing what I started. Doesn't matter what the weather is, doesn't matter how I feel. To me, motivation is just a decision. Discipline is a decision. It's no matter how I feel, no matter what's happening, this is what I'm doing. There are plenty of days I don't feel like doing 200 push-ups. Sometimes I finish my push-ups and I don't want to do those sit-ups. That's the hardest part for me. Don't want to do them. But I'll find myself. My wife will attest at 11:53 p.m. doing sit-ups to get them done by the end of the day. Right? It's discipline, right? You gotta have you gotta have discipline. If you lack discipline, there'll be a number of things that you do not see through. The last one is probably probably the hardest one for most people, is self-restraint. You gotta tell yourself no. I always say it's there's two people that you have to tell no, right? The first one you gotta tell your kids no, right? Your kids, you if your kids don't hear no from you, they wind up making some really poor decisions. So you gotta tell them no about some stuff. Number two, you gotta tell yourself no. I know it tastes good. That's not good for you. Don't eat that, no. You gotta be able to tell yourself no. You gotta be able to tell yourself no. You gotta have some self-restraint. I I make the joke with some of my friends, you know, we're really good at putting the weights up, but not good at putting the fork down. Right? So imagine this. You have self-awareness. I know what I need to know about myself. You have self-motivation. You get started to do something about those things. You have self-discipline. You can keep doing those things with longevity without quit. You got some stick to visit. And you don't let other things that are unrelated to this step over it and get in the way of you getting these things done. How can you fail?

Host 49:05

Sure, there's a pathway for people or a pull for some of those that that get in the way. But I would think the fourth one, right? I can I can be disciplined, I can do the thing. But allowing those other things to creep in, yeah, it's really easy to say, oh, well, work got busy, so I'm not gonna do that today. Or I'm too busy to cook the healthy meal, so I'm just gonna grab and go. Yeah. I mean, it's the creep in that you're right.

Guest 49:31

It's the creep in. That's right. That's a good way to put it. You know, you here's here's the thing. You know, you probably went to a seminar called time management. There's no such thing, right? No matter what you do, the clock is going to tick. But what we can do is priority management. We can manage our priorities. The way, the way I think about it, and it's gonna be in that next book, is you got about six buckets. Six buckets you can fill up 100%. We'll call that 600%, right? That's your capacity. Now, if you add four more buckets, you got 10 buckets, but you still have that 600%. And so you can get a 60 on everything scholastically, that's failure, right? And so you got to make some decisions. Sometimes you have to tell yourself no about things that you really want to do. Things that you might say, no, that's really important, but you know what the answer is? No. You got you gotta tell yourself no. So as an individual, as a leader in the family, as a leader in the company, your your first job is to define reality. That comes from Max Dupree, this book, Leadership is an art. The first job of a leader is to define reality. That means sometimes telling people, hey, I understand where you're coming from. I get it, and I appreciate that you're you know offering your insights, but we're not doing that. This is what we're doing. And I need you in on this 100%. But you got to define that reality. If not, you have multiple visions. You can only have one vision, right? You put the prefix DI, which means twice, two, or double in front of the word vision, what do you get? Division. There can only be one vision. Right. And that works in an organization as a leader. You have to be sure that you know what the vision is. You communicate that vision frequently to people. Leaders are repeaters. If it comes for yourself, you have to know what the vision is that you have for your life. And if you are trying to do multiple things all at the same time, there's no way you're going to be successful doing that one thing. There's a there's a quote in the um in the book by Confucius that he who chases two rabbits catches none. You can only chase one thing. You can set your sights on that one thing. That's your one vision. If not, that that double vision, it it won't it won't serve you well.

Host 52:01

It's such an important lesson that you make in a world in which move so quickly, so rapidly to sit at the head of an organization like yourself and to make those priorities and to coach people on how to make those priorities and make sure you're not adding four buckets. For me, that visual was outstanding. So thank you. How do you? How do you make the decision that this is where we have to say no to some things?

Guest 52:32

What's the alternative? Yeah, you can say yes to eight things, but what's your track record? Right? What's your track record in saying yes to several things and final success? Multitasking has been proven to be a joke. There's no such thing. Probably the best book on this is by Geno Whitman, Traction. The idea is to not just spin our wheels. Let's get some traction. Let's actually go somewhere. I somewhat agree. I I see some room for disagreement on some of that, but uh you have to choose what your cause of your rocks are. What are the most important things that we're going to spend our time on? And then make it short term. Not not what we're going to spend our time on for this year, for these three months, right? We're going to focus on these three to five things for these three months. I like that. I love that as an idea. And when you when you put that into place in your life, you get you get orderly. You get organized. I always say we call them organizations for a reason. They're supposed to be organized. Right? You can't be organized when you got a bunch of stuff. One of the easiest ways to organize is to have less stuff, less, less ideas, less, less things to focus on. And so one of the hardest things to, I would say, an organization to focus is the ideas. Because they're everywhere. Dr. Miles Moreau used to say the most powerful thing on the planet is an idea. Right? It's true. The chairs that we're sitting in were once an idea. This microphone was an idea one day. The lights up here, they were an idea. And people made those ideas happen. And so, yes, that we want ideas absolutely. Ideas bring about invention and creation, which is what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to be creators, not consumers. But you can't create everything all at once.

Speaker 1 54:38

Right.

Guest 54:39

And when you have all these ideas and you get over-inundated, then it means you're not giving enough focus on the one that could be the next best thing.

Host 54:48

And I see this in organizations where leaders struggle and trickle down in the organization from the teams of people that are saying, We're doing a lot, but we're not doing anything well.

Speaker 2 54:59

Right.

Guest 55:00

That speaks exactly to that.

Speaker 2 55:02

Exactly it.

Host 55:03

Let's stop doing so many things and do what we do well. Yeah. Again.

Guest 55:08

Right. Yeah. When you tackle all those things, it means that you're not serious enough about the most important one. The single most reason that we don't hit our goals. We're not serious enough. We were serious enough about hitting that one. No, we do. We would freaking hit it. That's what we would do. She's how it works.

Host 55:26

What gets in the way? I mean, it seems so simple, right? But you and I both know it's not. But what gets in the way?

Guest 55:32

I can't remember who said it, but they said all of men's problems exist because of this inability to sit in a room and do nothing. I think there's a ton of truth to that. What that leads to is the ability to just be still and to be focused, right? We're doing so many things. And you're right. We are literally in an age of distraction. Distraction is everywhere. And you're going to get a lot of ideas that sound really good. And as a matter of fact, you know what? We can do that. We can do that. Just because we can doesn't mean that we should. What gets in the way? Restraint. Not saying no. Right? I think more times than not, I see that that's the one that cripples organizations. I see a ton of people who are so motivated. I mean, the corporate structure, the idea of hierarchy, is built to, you know, dangle the carrot and get people to work hard. So I don't think motivation is usually the problem. People are very motivated. People are very disciplined. Some of the most disciplined people I know are corporate people. It's restraint. Focus. I'm going to focus on that one thing, right? Um, and when you do that, you get serious about it. I had to become maid in order to write a book because my life was chaotic. I got three kids. I love my kids so much. I had a beautiful wife. Just having a house is a lot. You know, in Maine, um, I work a lot. I got a lot going on. I was volunteering at my church. I had a lot going on. And so I had to change my life. If I was really serious about it, you know, there's a couple of ways to know if a person's serious about something. What is their what does their calendar look like? What does their pocketbook look like? Because those are the things you invest in. And so um, I had to change my life around. And so for two years, every morning, I'm up at five. I write from when I get to my office around 5 a.m. until about 7.15. Kids go get on the school bus. I come down and have coffee with Bray. That's two hours, approximately two hours, two hours, 15 minutes every day that that's what I'm focused on. I'm not focused on doing something else. That's what I'm doing. Or serious about it. When I get in a good flow, and there isn't such a thing as writer's flow, I've learned this. It's freaking awesome. It's a euphoric high that you wouldn't believe. But I will have some moments where after the kids go to bed, back in the office, right back at it. Now I'm not focused on doing several other things. I'm focused on that one thing, that one thing. And so people are far more capable than what they think they are. Just unfocused. And what is unfocused? It's a lack of restraint. To be able to just focus on this one thing means I had to tell myself no about some other things. I had to tell Netflix, no.

Speaker 2 58:40

Right.

Guest 58:41

Right? I had to tell these silly games on my phone, no, I'm not doing that. I had to tell people, listen, people that I like, people that I miss, no, I can't meet you for car. I can't do that. Right? Because I'm focused on this right now. When you're really serious about your goals, you will make it happen. You will make it happen. That's that's just that's just how it goes. Again, as long as we are self-aware, because that means we're choosing goals that we can actually do. We we I can't be Kobe Bryant, right? I I can't be Cooper Flagg. Those days are over. So I gotta be honest with myself about what I can do.

unknown 59:22

Right?

Guest 59:23

Drives me crazy some of these people out here trying to do stuff they have no business doing. Be honest with yourself. I gotta be self-aware. Once I'm self-aware, get motivated. That means uh day one, I decided I put it in my calendar. I want to start writing this book on this day. On this day, at this time. And I got up. I set my clock. I went out and I got started. I was motivated. I was disciplined. I kept doing this for over two years. I did this. And self-restraint. I didn't let other things, commitments, get in the way. Right? That means some of my other things that I wanted to do. Yeah, I really want to watch that UFC fight, Todd. I really do, bro. I can't make it, man. Because if I stay up to 2 a.m. watching this fight, what's 5 a.m. gonna feel like? It ain't gonna happen. And so when we get really serious about our goals, yeah, we'll we'll get all those selves in order. And you know what you'll do? You'll hit them. You'll hit them. So one of the assignments that I have for some of my coaching clients is to write down those four selves. Self-awareness, self-motivation, um, self-discipline, self-restraint. Now give yourself a grade on it. Just a letter grade, A plus, A minus, B plus. Like, where do you see yourself? That honesty with yourself to say, you know, I struggle here, I fall down here. That's a wake-up call. Now the question is after that, what are you gonna do about it? You get motivated to do something about it? Gonna you just assess yourself, right? Make a declaration. Say, I'm gonna get better at these things. Then you execute on it. How do you execute on it? You tell people, hey, I'm I'm working on this. This shouldn't be a secret. I'm working on this. I want you to hold me accountable. I want you to ask me how my goal is going. How am I doing in this thing that I said that I want to do? Right. And so again, if you get serious about your goals, you're going to hit your goals.

Host 1:01:21

But I really, as you're talking through this, I can't wait for it to be on paper so I can read it. But also the when I think about the target audience for that book, it's everyone.

Speaker 2 1:01:34

Yeah, right.

Host 1:01:35

It's not just corporate leaders, 100%, middle-level managers. This is athletes and anybody who has a goal. It's for everyone.

Guest 1:01:45

It's for everybody.

Host 1:01:46

I can't wait.

Guest 1:01:47

Yeah, if you can put photo on the mirror, as my mom was saying it's for you, right? Um, and so I I think it will be when it comes out, making a declaration here in 2028. When it comes out, um, it will actually mean for everyone. One by 100 is more for a corporate audience. But I felt like I left some people out. And so that's why I'm coming back with the four pillars of winning. Because uh again, we should all want to win. If you don't want to win, it's something wrong with you. Right? It's probably because you don't believe that you can. And so that's a mindset that you wanna you want to go and and and address. But if you if you have a desire to win, it's really just about addressing those four pillars, finding out where you fall down, what what you struggle with, making a plan about that, actuate that plan, and then be about your business, and you will find a way to win.

Host 1:02:41

There are two things in what you said in the declaration of the book coming out in 2028, and that this will still be happening in 2028, and that you will come back and talk about the book in 2028.

Guest 1:02:52

Oh, 100%. Whatever you need, but fantastic. Yeah, of course.

Host 1:02:55

I'd love to close because I again we could go on for days. I I just am so enthralled in all of the things that you have to say and the stories you have to share. So I'm so grateful. What would you hope that your children think about when they think about dad and his leadership?

Guest 1:03:14

That he lived it. Yeah. That's uh that's that's important for me. You know, one of the hardest things to do in life is to is to do something or be something that was never demonstrated for you. Um that's hard to do when there's no example of how to do that thing. Like most people are, you know, visual, tactile learners, you know. You learn by seeing, we learn by doing. And so um they're in the house with me. They they see what I do. I I I love the fact that my kids, like my office is about 30 yards behind my house. I got a great commute, right? It's awesome. Um I love the fact that my kids see me coming back into the house at 7.15 in the morning. They know where I've been, you know. Um I I love the fact that they have never heard a word come out of my mouth that is a filthy word. Right? Never. Because if I can't say it in front of my kids, I'm not gonna say it anywhere else. I I want my kids to look at my life as an example. I don't want to be one of those do as I say, not as I do parents. And so that's my that's my hope. And so it it it said, uh, it's a challenge. You know, it's one of the things that's important is um most people just want to look good. You know, that's reputation. We live in a society, it's all about what it looks like. Most of society is a lie. Um and so I don't want to just look good. I want to have high character, not high reputation. And that's going back to the first question that you asked me. That's where I see a lot of leaders falling down. Is that they want to say the right thing while thinking the wrong thoughts. Oh no, no, no, no, no. That is not leadership. And eventually that will come out. Or, or those are the people who struggle most with imposter syndrome because they know they are not who they're trying to portray. That's where it comes from. And so we have to focus on our character. And so I hope that when all is said and done, my kids look at me as being a man of character who lived what he talked about and um and talked about it boldly because he thought that other people should live that way too.

Speaker 3 1:06:03

I'd say you're doing it.

Speaker 1:06:04

I'm trying to do it. Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker 4 1:06:08

Well, thank you so much for your time today. I I'll put the link to purchase the book.

Speaker 2 1:06:13

Perfect. Please do.

Speaker 4 1:06:14

I'll also post the link for your website. So if those are out there that would like some help and leadership development and executive coaching, halloway group, fantastic. I've seen you in action and it is magic in a room. And to your point, no one would know you're an introvert in that setting ever. It is pure magic, the work that you do with not not only C-suite, with with all people in the organization. And I think, you know, if I had to name your personal brand, it would be that connection with people, which is what it's all about at the end of the day.

Speaker 1:06:48

It's important. 100%. Yeah, very important.

Speaker 4 1:06:50

So thank you for your time today. Looking forward to doing it again soon.

Speaker 1:06:53

Yeah, me too. Thank you. This was fun. Thanks a lot, Black.

Speaker 3 1:06:57

Not every chapter of leadership is bolded, but the fine print, the choices no one sees often defines a story. Thanks for listening to lead the fine print.

Speaker 1 1:07:11

Test, test, test.

Speaker 3 1:07:13

Not every chapter of leadership is bolded, but the fine print, the choices no one sees, often defines a story. Thanks for listening to lead the fine print.

Speaker 1 1:07:27

Test, test, test.

Speaker 3 1:07:29

Not every chapter of leadership is bolded, but the fine print, the choices no one sees, often defines a story. Thanks for listening to lead the fine print.

Speaker 1 1:07:43

Test test test.

Speaker 3 1:07:45

Not every chapter of leadership is bolded, but the fine print, the choices no one sees, often defines a story. Thanks for listening to lead the fine print.