Lost Our Way? The Purpose of Showpigs - Part 1

A 2 part series discussing a basic principle question - WHY? This began from a listener request, and kind of took off from there to another level. In this episode we explore the purpose of and for purpose-driven selection in the show pig industry, addressing questions about industry standards, genetic diversity, and the balance between function and appearance. Hosts Josh  and Carrie Brockman discuss industry evolution, judging criteria, and the importance of purpose in breeding and showing pigs, and what the vibrant showpig industry has become and their thoughts on it. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:14

Welcome back again to Show Pick Central. I'm your host, Josh Brockman, alongside my lovely bride, Carrie. And we're glad to be back with you here for another episode of Show Pick Central. We're going to try to continue this every two-week model, bi-weekly drops of the podcast. So that's the that's the foreseen plan for now. So if you're looking for uh this one uh and the next one, uh we'll drop them every other week as we go. So that's the plan as as we roll on, but we're glad however you found us. Uh again, always on the front side. If you're listening to the podcast and you want to watch it, uh the only place you can watch the video of it is uh on YouTube for now. So if you're listening to it and you're happy with that, go ahead. But if you'd rather watch the podcast, go over to our YouTube channel and you can find it there uh video as well. So it's been a fun summer so far. A lot of rain in Montgomery.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Farron episode went well. Uh Farron's going well. And uh so today we wanted to, or this week, uh wanted to jump back into uh some of our listener requests. Uh we're we're we're glad you so many of you have have taken the opportunity to send us things that you would like to hear. And uh so we're gonna take that uh this opportunity again just to tell you uh if there's a podcast that you would like an episode on, um shoot that to us in an email uh showpig uh showpigcentral at gmail.com. Shoot us a text, Facebook message us. Uh there's a place if you're listening on Spotify to uh just uh to direct messages through that. However, reach out to us if there's something you'd like to hear. We'd love to hear from you guys that makes it fun uh for y'all, makes it fun for us, um, and so it so it all keeps working. So today uh we're gonna we're gonna go to a request and I'm just gonna read the question to start out with uh to open a discussion and then uh then we can kind of just uh jump right into it. So uh this listener said uh in his text to me was why why make and feed show pigs to be what they need to be? Stout, athletic, etc. Why do they have to be cool looking from the side and in their appearance? And and that was his question. So we kind of took that and uh and ran with it a little bit. That's what we're gonna do today, as you can see in the title of the episode, um, have we lost our way, have we lost our mind? Um, what what's the purpose behind show pegs? And this is probably really timely, Carrie, for a lot of reasons. Uh I mean we just sold a million, or we didn't sell him, but uh Keplinger just sold a million dollar boar um uh that PBG bought. That was that was quite the quite the thing to see and hear, and then really to see and hear the aftermath was maybe as as interesting.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yeah, no, for sure. It um No, it was, and and you know, um I guess not to get on a soapbox like right out of the gate, but man, I saw some posts. I saw um some posts that were just really discouraging um and and were shared on Facebook by people that I really respect in the industry. Um and you know, I just it just bothers me when when I hear like everything's upside down, we've lost it, you know. Um I don't know, it just bothers me.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

Right. No, I yeah, well the the wonderful thing about social media is is you can you can find out everyone's opinion usually quickly and and sometimes probably more of their opinion than they even wanted you to know.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Well, and that's a good point because what literally what we're talking about today at the end of a day, at the end of the of a day, a show pig at a show is one person's opinion anyway. Definitely so like if you like them big, tall, long, and gaining two and a half pounds a day, if that's your priority when you judge, by all means. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Um well, uh yeah, I and and we're gonna get into that a lot because uh and maybe we'll just jump in on the front side of that and then we'll we'll circle back to all of this. But it it is like that is what makes well there's a lot of questions that roll through my mind, what makes somebody qualified to judge a livestock show? Um, and then what makes them right or wrong in their determination? Well, at the end of the day, if they their name's on the check, then that day they're they're at least in that setting, right, whether you agree or disagree. Yep. Uh, but but at the same time, from you know, the argument already from the from the back side of the production side and and that, and I'm not even talking about commercial and and the tie between the two industries, we'll get into that too. But you know, I'll just take for me, there's certain things that I like, but n but also the longer I do this, the the r it's becoming more clear why I like them. And it's what we do over here day in and day out, and and what works for us. So uh no different than than the reason that an automaker likes this specific because because it works for him. If he lives in the mountainous region and stuff, oil drive pickups or ranch ranch area, well that works for him. If he lives in downtown Houston, you know that's a weird analogy, but it's the same. And uh and this is the same, and you know, uh uh that that's what makes the world go around. There's and it's you know, it's a positive thing, really, when you can see advances in industry, whether it's a million dollar bore or whatever, uh you know, a feed that that actually uh the technology catches up to to mold and shape and do things that we want to do. Um, you know, th there's always in every conversation, always, always regardless going to be a two sides of that. That makes the world somewhat garbage. Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

No, and that's fine. I just um I don't know. I feel I feel like, yeah, we are doing a lot of extremes right now as an industry. And I probably should have done some research on this. I don't know when livestock shows started. I mean, I know like on the cattle side, I think it was in the Adam and Eve were setting them up out there. No, I don't think Adam and Adam and Eve were uh were setting them up. But I mean I think in the early 1900s, I don't know, I some sure somebody um Tell us that in the comments if you know the answer to that question. Um But I mean since the inception of shows it's a comparative thing. I mean and we'll get to that, you know. Um but I mean if they all look alike, you can't compare anything.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

No, no, it's you quite literally have to have something to measure.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

This is a this is a somewhat of a poor analogy because there were still differences, but I will never forget judging that county fair in Maryland, and the first uh there was I don't remember how many classes of showmanship, plenty. And the first set of first set of kids came out, and I mean there's obviously differences, especially in showmanship, but they uh I felt like when when they just kept coming, they all had 280-pound Yorkshire guilts, they all had a cane, they were all in their 4-H uniforms, where they were dressed identical, and it was like, man, you gotta have to hone down. You know, normally if you're judging and if you're listening, you judge, and and if you haven't, even if you're sitting ringside and you watch, it's like, okay, I like that one. And then that kid's wearing a blue shirt, that gilt's this color or barrels, whatever. There's memorabilia to it, and not that there wasn't in that setting, you know, you do you break down the kids, but it's like my first instinct was this is a sea of the same, you know. And um, I'm sure anybody's felt that before, but yeah, it makes it it and and that goes for the same thing of of the fact of if we all liked the exact same thing, it would be really boring very quickly.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Right. And I do think we have to go back to at the end of the day, what's the purpose of a show pig?

SPEAKER_03 8:17

Yeah, that's the title of the episode.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Yeah. Well, maybe. But I mean the purpose the purpose never once when this was all set out was it to just like make it all average. I mean, I'm sure somebody listening potentially might say, you know, well, the purpose was to teach a kid about the industry and um, you know, all those things, and a hundred percent, okay. But that doesn't mean that it has to mirror the industry. So when we talk about, you know, we're so far away from the commercial thing, well, yeah, yes, we are, because yes, we are.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

You're not denying that.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yeah, and I think that's fine. A commercial pig has this purpose, a show pig has this purpose, and it's teaching a kid, you know, how work we always talk about, you know, work ethic, working hard, determination, all these things, but it also like how to set yourself apart, how to get an edge. Wow, this sounds like things that you have to do when you get out of college to get a job.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

I mean, you know, and yeah, how to make a plan, how to, you know, yeah search for a certain goal, whether it's to show every weekend at the beginning of the or are you targeting a specific date on Green Shavens in March. Like there's a there's there's that. So so let's let's just jump in. We've got this broken down into about six or seven different categories, and we'll see if we get through them all before uh before we run out of time or y'all get tired of listening. Um but um so the first one, Carrie's already kind of jumped us into selecting for a purpose, or what what is the actual purpose of any industry, but specifically of the show pig livestock industry. And I thought the neatest analogy, and I got this from ChatGPT, but it was a good analogy, I'll give it to you. It is just like looking at the horse world. There's thirdbred racehorses, there's quarterbred quarter horses, racehorses, take quarter horses, take third breads out of the way for a second. There's quarter horses, and there's ranch horses. There's quarter horses that are racehorses and ranch horses. Sure, I'm sure I'm not familiar with either really all that much, but I'm sure there's some some overlap, but I guarantee you there's a lot of difference.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yeah, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Well, that's I mean, if you yeah, if you pulled your ranch horse out and went and ran him at the track and delta downs, I was gonna say Riadosa, but I guess that's a thing of the past for the moment. But yeah, he's gonna get last, most likely.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

And so the same thing. If you take your commercial pig today and you bring her to the show, he's gonna get it, don't matter who's judging. If you pull a commercial pig out, he's getting last.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yeah. Now, does that mean that the kid doesn't learn if if he treats him like a show pig, that he wouldn't learn a lot of the same things?

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Right, I'll say it the other way. If I loaded up the Grand Bear at Houston and took him and dropped him up and said, What do y'all think about this? Well, first off, they're gonna say, Well, what's his average daily gain and what is his feed consumption ratio? And they're not really gonna care what he looks like. Right. And they're gonna wonder why his tail's not knocked down shorter, and why has he got ear notches and why is he belted black and white? Yeah, like others yeah, or blue, or yeah, I guess they could be irregardless. There's not gonna be a lot of a lot of Passover.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

So yeah, and maybe that's a good thing. That might well, I think it's a great thing.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

But you can teach that is just as teachable Well, no, I I think both obviously both are are are very relevant, very good. Yeah. They're just not the same, in our humble opinion. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

And Well, it's quite factually that they're not the same. That's not even an opinion. Our opinion is that it's okay that they're not the same. Yes, no, it's you know, we're gonna have kids at the TPPA um deal this next weekend, and and they learn about show pigs and they learn about the commercial industry, and the fact that they are that different, they they learn more, they see more commercial.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Well, and and and just to peel back, and and again, we're just kind of unfolding purpose here. You might you might say, Well, I went to the the steer show, which is also different, but say now they talked a lot more about marketability and cut ability and some similarities. Well, I I could take a hundred cows and go out here and and raise commercial cattle and make a living. If I took our hundred salves and tried to raise commercial pigs, I would be broke very soon because the the vertical integration of the way our country is set up. And I know there's many of you in the Midwest that's listening that that that contract out, and and that's not completely the same as it is in this part of the world. But as a general rule, yeah, if I wanted to go out and raise commercial pigs for a living the way I do now, I don't not not possibly no, you'd have to find a niche market. And that's often a niche market where you'd have to get contracted in under yeah corporations that are already going. And so again, I think that drives a little bit, just for me, a little more of the wedge of the separation. Right. And you know, some may say, well, he's still going to the food chain and that. Yes, all that's but that's not the point of the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

So the person's just which to some people it is, again, I go back to purpose. Yeah. You know, of it it's developing kids.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Developing kids, the developing industry itself. Now, I mean, we just talked about a million dollar board, and there's many others, but even if there was a if if there's people have been making a living doing this for a long time, long before.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Well, no, and I think there's those people out there that'll say it's not supposed to be an industry. And man, I just have a hard time with that. Like, what's wrong with that? That kids can can grow up showing pigs, cattle, sheep, goats, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

And many of those people watch professional football or baseball or basketball.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

I mean, I'm not picking on you, I'm just saying No, and then you get they can go and work in that industry. I think I I just don't see a problem with that.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

You know, no, it's neat now too, like with technology, the explosion of and I'm thinking of like Kennedy's and and and there's a million different people that was just the one that came to my mind, particularly Blake. I mean, he's kind of keeps developing, and I know there's lots of pieces to that, but you see all of these different options to go in. It's not just raising them in the production side, or it's not just working for a feed company. Working for a feed company, or it's not just let me go have a board stud. There's you know, uh photography and videography and all of this stuff. And now I you know, don't get I've sat in the house at times and thought this is really getting a little overboard because uh I feel like every waking second I should be doing something else to you know, it's not good enough just to have a pig cell. I need to I need to be sure we capture the moment so I can show everybody else what a great time they missed out on and that they should have been here. I get it, I'll get that. But still at the same time, i it it's building industry, it's building you know, they talk about on the news all the time about building creating jobs. I mean, it's it's it's happening. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

No, and that's just gonna be where some of us differ. Some people don't think it needs to be an industry. Um Well it is, so there's there's no and if that if that's your if that's if you truly believe that, then I challenge you to go find another youth anything that's not an industry.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

Yeah, or at least developing into that. Yeah, baseball.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah, I mean some.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

So you can watch it on national television if you want to. Right. Yeah. It doesn't just happen without industry. So, you know, does that make it worse? D do you lose some uh I don't even know what the word is I'm looking for when you grow that bit, maybe, but that's in anything. I mean that's in life.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

That's what I was gonna say is that it's literally we we are talking about things that prepare kids for real life. Like to me, that's the point.

SPEAKER_03 15:56

No, and that and that's the other neat thing now. Let's just so back to the the thing. You you can sit down this the the week we're recording, this not the week it drops, or next week is is the exposition. You can sit down from anywhere in the world and watch watch that all happen. Whether you go to Des Moines or you stay at home or you're on a beach somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Which is where we'll be.

SPEAKER_03 16:18

Yeah. Uh good. For the first time ever. Um But you you could take part in that. If you're if you're a grandparent, if you're a whatever. You know, I talked to a guy, again, we're it's just fresh on my mind about this million dollar boar selling, and and he said I went to work the next morning. People don't even know anything about show pigs, and they're talking about this boar that's sold. And be real honest, if it wasn't for all these boys that worked for me, I probably wouldn't have even known it happened until the next day. So um, but it's such a I I guess it's really neat to participate as a kid. No, I'm not a kid, but for our kids and your kids and the kids across the country, that they're gonna be at Des Moines and and it's gonna be a nationally recognized event. Yep. Not only even just within the little close sector of of Showpick World, but it's gonna overflow out to that. So that's just that's kind of neat. And and again, with the growth, there's always growing pains of is this sustainable or is this good or this bad, or you know, and and and I hear the and we'll do episodes on this too. I I hear the well if it if it's getting expensive for you know this, that and the other. And um and we'll we'll talk about that because we've got strong opinions on on on that too, because again, this is what we do for a living, and it does have to be sustainable, and there do have to be and I'm getting ahead on the board already, but well it's always been expensive.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

It's it's the most expensive now that it's probably ever been.

SPEAKER_03 17:47

Well, and and and and that's somewhat the industry being vibrant and growing and competitive, but that's also just just the the the state of our country, the state that we're in. I was at this meeting and I mean you can't go to the grocery store for less than a hundred or two hundred dollars if exactly no, I I was at an industry meeting and people were just kind of dogging on breeders about how expensive show pigs are.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

And I'm like, have you booked a hotel in Houston? Have you have you bought food at Houston? I mean, it is expensive to do any of it. Yeah, not just buy the pig. Like, we probably spend more money the week of Houston than we do any other year or any other week of the year because of what things cost. So, I mean, yes, show pigs are expensive. I'm not, you know, and that has been a generational debate. I remember when the first show steer brought 30,000 and people were just like, Oh my goodness. Here's the deal in life, when you're an adult, there's gonna be people that can spend whatever they want to spend on whatever they want to. Part of it is you figuring out what you can spend and making that work.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

And making it work, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Exactly. I I I I love that part of it. I think that's awesome. My family, we were never the ones that had a whole bunch of money to spend, but they knew they were gonna get taken care of, they knew they were gonna get shown good. So we got better cattle than what we would have ever been able to afford because people knew that we were gonna be a good home.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

I love that. I I I think that's great.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

No, and that still happens all the time. And and I mean, I can think off the top of my head of at least two or three pigs that have won the toughest shows, that's my opinion, in the world.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Super Bowl.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Super Bowl of Varis shows that haven't been just about three and a half hours right over here. Super Bowl. Thank you for correcting me on that. And uh and I mean some of the cheaper pigs that would have sold that year in retrospect of the whole deal. And that I would say 95 I I won't put a finger on that, but just the point being, it can happen. We just won the toughest show in Louisiana and and arguably one of the toughest shows in the country. And that pig sold right back here for $700. Yep. And there were pigs that sold that day for much more than that. Some maybe sold us, and I don't really remember. But I can tell you that $700 pig won that show.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

And so But $700 worth of effort was not put into that pig. That's exactly right. You know, I one of the comments on this post that got shared that just bothered me a lot about how upside down the industry is.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

Maybe we should title the episode this 700 to a million.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Um one of the comments that I really appreciated was, you know, I don't think it's the uh, yes, it's expensive. Everybody realizes that. But at the same time, are people willing to go beat the bushes and find the ones that they think can make work that work for their budget?

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

You know, and it's not even about like, are people willing to, which a lot of them aren't. That's a whole nother subject, but it's true.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

We'll get to that one.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

But ag teachers right now are almost like if they have the desire to go look for pigs, their schools are not gonna monetarily support them to go do that, a lot of them, especially down here where we live. So I just, you know, people just want to throw this one thing out there and say, well, it's too expensive. And that well, okay, it's expensive, but there's a lot of other stuff that goes into that.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

Right. I mean, they're building a six million dollar football facility in Huntsville SD.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Exactly. Yeah, and I'm not even saying, I mean, that's not my world, so whatever, but it's not just show pigs and show livestock. That's it, that is expensive.

unknown 21:32

Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

So yeah, it it's it's uh yeah. We've we've we've covered 20 minutes on point one.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

So um Yeah, we need to get to why do they need to be unique?

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Yeah, no, what what what is yeah, sorry that we haven't got to your actual question. So so welcome. That was our our cold open for the day. And uh, but uh, you know, obviously you can tell something that we've thought about and think about constantly because again, there are, and we'll get to this. Towards the the end of the the episode of that there are those discussions to be had. There are I mean and and again, whether it's the show pig industry or anything else, if you want to put your your chest up and out and bow up or your head in the sand, either one, uh well, negatives come from that. So you you've gotta be realistic and you've got to be forward thinking and you've gotta, you know, I mean, be progressive and conservative and all those things. And yeah, be a good steward at the end of the day mostly and and think it through. And and you know, I think we've got a lot of people in this industry that do do a lot of that in different ways.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

So Right. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Um But bottom line, it it's it's even in the last ten years the expansion and explosion of it is is wild and and you know, yeah, it looks different than it did ten years ago, and that then looked different than it did ten years before that.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

And it's well that's what I wanted to that's the point I was trying to make when we talked about where livestock shows started in the early 1900s or whenever it was, uh they continued to progress. Like that was the point. And that that leads us into like why do they need to be unique?

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Um Yeah, we'll go that way and we'll circle back in another episode on on the like we talked about. But yeah, so so so the second the second section, uh uh again, so the the request for this episode was was yeah, why why do they need to look like they look? Why why do we need to feed them to maximize them in this way or the other? And that's a good question. Like what why? What's what's the point? What's the purpose? So we've kind of started that as as the first part of why do they need to be unique, and then we'll follow that up on on actual physical traits and this, that, and the other. So yeah, go ahead and jump us up.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Well, it just kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier. If they were all solid white and had shortcut tails and no ear notches, and they all look the same and they were all extremely uniform, how do you judge that? Um, regardless, like maybe you like that. Maybe you like to look at it. But if you could just go and look at a pen of commercial hogs and you said judge these, like how how would I mean, you know, there are some differences, I'm sure. Yeah, that but on the show pig deal, it number one, you have to have a difference.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

Yeah, you gotta be set apart, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

You gotta be set apart, but it not I'm not even saying like set yourself apart. I'm saying there there has to be differences to judge, to evaluate, right? You know, um and it goes back to opinion. You know, uh you and I are known for liking balanced, real neat looking ones. And somebody's gonna say, well, neat looking doesn't you don't eat neat looking, you don't eat bone, it it's not worth anything.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Again Well, in our industry it is, and that's again like that that this is all gonna circle back every time when somebody says, Well, yeah, shit. Well, no, circle back to the purpose. Like what's the what's the purpose? If I if I have if I raise fast growing tall, so and say fast growing, they can be we we won Houston with one that was barely six months old, so I they've they've grown plenty fast. But if I target the same principles that the commercial world world does feed efficiency, average daily gain, only those are my two main priorities. Yeah. Um and we could even talk about food quality from that standpoint. Like that even gets set to the side in our current pork industry because we're we're focused on making the most for the less.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Well, you mean they want they went to extremes.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

They went to extremes. They're they're making they're making the most they can for the least that they can.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

And and kudos. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Yeah, that's fine. But if I have that same mindset, I'm gonna starve because that's just not that's not customer base. That's not you know, at the end of the day, we all it's like any other industry, we have uh producer and a and an end user. And if you don't make what they want, they're not gonna buy it. Or they're gonna buy it at a significantly lower rate. So so what what are you what are your decisions? There, what are you gonna do? And again, so trace that back to well, what wins? Well, the guys, and I'll just put myself, I won't speak for anybody else. When I step out in the ring, I want the one that comes out that that makes it work for me. I I want to s the the pig that's gonna win is gonna be one that if I made him here, he's gonna help make our living, and it's the kind that I like and the kind that you know that works. So same way Glenn Martin um got on his deal on I think he judge Indy maybe, and he said, you know, th these kind die at my house.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

That's why he likes them the way that he likes, because that's what makes them work for him.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

And and and I don't want to say I don't want anybody to say, well, y'all are just y'all want extremes and y'all have taken function out. Believe me, there's nobody sitting on this place that function affects more than me.

SPEAKER_03 26:45

Right. No, that yeah, and so we're in the in the heat of it in the summer right now, and that that was the other thing I was coming to people would say, Well, yeah, you're you're just sacrificing well, yes, what what I want my sales to look like and what a a commercial guy wants his cells to look like aren't the same. But there's still the the lines that are drawn, they're just drawn in different places and for different reasons, because if they can't go through the fairing house and have their pigs and me get them out, regardless of what way that is. Well but uh if you weren't watching the video, you missed that. But uh then yeah, it doesn't work. So so so for somebody to say, well, all y'all care about is making the the freaky unique and and you you care less about function and production. Well, uh they're nothing further from the truth because if I can't get them to that point, then it doesn't matter. Right. If if we can't if if they can't breed and they can't conceive and they can't survive in a salot with 25 other ones, and they can't survive in the in a fairing crate, or they this, that, and that well the the yeah, so it's so anybody that says, now yes, if I laid down there and I had one fairing house full of my cells and one fairing house full of PIC sows or seaboard or whoever, yeah, they're gonna smoke me down if you just want to talk about numbers born, number weaned, how you know, weaning weight, which I we wouldn't even have a way to weigh them around here. Um and any of that. But again, what's the purpose? Their purpose is different than than our purpose, and that's fine. Yeah. And uh, you know, if if you're if you're sitting here listening and say, Well, I don't like the kind that that Josh and Carrie make. They're they're too stout and hairy and dense or whatever, that sounds kind of arrogant. But uh only if you like it. If you don't like it, then it's well yeah, they they don't make the kind that I like.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Great. Well that's the deal.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

There's people in this industry that are successful, that make a living, that raise show picks, not commercial picks, that make picks that I don't like. And they do very well, but they their customer base is different than mine, their goals are different than mine, their where they show them at is different than mine, but they make it work, and I respect them just as much as I do the guy beside me that's trying to make them the same way I'm trying to make them.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Yeah. No, I mean, if if you if you believe um and you think the priorities need to be average daily gain and and growth and all those things that you mentioned, um if you live in the Midwest, they have derby shows. And I'm not like throwing rocks, I'm saying that's great, focus on that.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

If you're in Texas, oh I can remember Brent talking about that. Like I'm gonna spank them at the Derby show. And so average daily gain had a per, you know, him and Mary got used to that like and I thought it was awesome because it doesn't matter if if you know we're throwing rocks, I'm gonna try to figure out how to beat you. And and that's the same thing. So in that, yeah, there was a little more. I mean, again, that was a different the pig that won the derby show wasn't probably gonna win the, you know, they had a different person.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Okay, and in an ideal world, you know, let's say like you brought up the Garden of Eden, maybe in the New Jerusalem. Um anyway, regardless of your thoughts on what that is.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

In a per let's go back, in a perfect world, would they all be you know, um possibly pushing extremes from phenotype and pushing extremes from production? A hundred percent. I mean, if I could have sows that were big big and stout muscled and giant-legged, and they'd have giant-legged pigs that were stout muscled on their own in the middle of the night, I mean, yeah. Sign me up.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

It just you gotta balance those things, and it's like you said, you've got to draw that line. And it's like we were talking about earlier. Why do we want these? Why do they need to be neat looking, um, big legged, hairy, all that stuff? Well, you know, uh professional pitchers or even kids today, they throw baseballs faster than they used to. You know, we we do extremes and all these things because it's harder. And as a you know, uh culture and as a people, that's what mankind has done for ages, is continue to develop.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

And there's good with that and there's bad with that.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Right. And and nobody's denying that. We're not sitting here denying that there's you know, you've got to figure out where the lines need to be drawn for that. Again, that teaches kids something.

SPEAKER_03 31:04

And no different, and and we keep bringing this back to the commercial industry, and that wasn't really the goal, but but it's just the common conversation, and especially when you get into the social media clickers and and commenters, and hey, on this, y'all comment all the way because I want to see I want to hear what you have to say. Um, so yeah, let us know in the comments. I'm gonna say that a couple more times as we go. No, it it's I I and and when we laugh, but it truly, because I I meant what I said a while ago of like there's there's different ways for different people to make it work for them, and you know, all those things. But another instance here of of why are they I was thinking back to our our specific question we're in now, of why are they why why do pigs have to be unique is uh another instance is what you you're showcasing different people's genetics and what they're trying to build and make. And so you you can see that that this guy has built a sow herd that looks like this, and and you know their pigs as a general rule. And and there's something to that when you when you um at least as me as a breeder, like when you have this consistency because you've you've had a vision of what you want to look like and you've just stayed true to that and built to it. And and you can see a lot of the times, like I you know, I I I can tell what what Lender's pigs look like. Most of the like if they come out, sometimes I'm wrong, but that looks like one Luke raised.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. But but whether it is or it isn't, genetically there's probably a tie there because there's a pattern that's built there. And whether it's Heimer or Lackey or Platt or Keplinger or Brenning and so on and so forth, and those things change. Our pigs look different now than they did, you know, five, eight years ago, I think for the better. Um, and and then there's, you know, I I can think back to the Roy D days of like man, they look like this, and then all right, we're we're lined up this tight, now we gotta shift and get some fresh air and go this way. And for a second they look a little different, and then all right, now they look like this. Uh or Mike or Kyle or a lot of those guys. And it was it was neat for me as a kid because when you saw them when they when they got it back right and they just spanked you for a few years, and then you can say, like, all right, now we need to unfold and do that, and and you know, could we see Kannoth do that, you've seen a lot of people do that. Yeah. And so why do they need to be unique? We've got all of these different patterns, and then people kind of I need that. That the you know, these guys make that more that's that genetic piece. Let me push it across and and so and you gotta respect the guy.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

If somebody steps in the ring and they say, I just want you know, as good of a pig that's not messed up. And uh the word average will get thrown out there. And if that's what you like, then that, you know, I mean, it it's his opinion that day. I mean, we would not probably agree with that. Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

No, and we've all sat around rings. I didn't seen that. Like the the the the one with no extremes, no big problems, and you set off on the side. And I'll be honest, I mean, there's I mean, anybody that knows me knows that I I mean I like them as unique as I can possibly. And there's been times that just the the one that I could live with was that pick. And and you know, I just you you don't always find that outline piece where you within the line that you have drawn. And I guess that's that's the other difference of why are they unique and where it could be the negatives of that is like you you're drawing lines of is this acceptable or unacceptable. And it's the same thing in anything else. It it doesn't matter if it's frame size, like at some point there's a lawn dry, and like, okay, he's tall enough that it just throws him all out of proportion.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Or or he's small enough that he's too quick, and usually with that comes if they're that tall, they're probably flatter, or they need to weigh 350 and they can't, or if they're yeah dwarfs, then they're probably fat and ugly. And I mean all of those so you you kind of draw back to those those deals.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

But well, and you know, the other thing that a lot of our kids are involved in, and our our son right now is absolutely obsessed, literally obsessed with livestock judging. You quite literally have to have differences in livestock judging place for him. You know, I mean, yeah, they you know, like he was talking about performance Angus Bulls or something that they judged as well.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

Sometimes the difference in those are just on the paper.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Right. Well, that's what it was, because he was saying how good the OSU camp was, and it taught him how to read EPD and scenarios and all this stuff.

SPEAKER_03 35:36

And so, you know, even with that, I mean Yeah, there's some different let me tie back to the commercial industry one more time. Most of the differences are on the paper.

unknown 35:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

And that's fine. Yeah, their their world in extremes is just in a different part than ours. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

So um, so we'll just talk about uh physical traits itself and and so again, what why do they need to be, and we'll just try to kind of break this down the best we can, but why do they need to be neat looking? Why do they need to be this frame size? Why do they need to be this length of body? Why do they need to be this heavy duty or this wide or this muscular or this fat or whatever? Well, there there's always an underlying foundation to why, right? Like uh anything to do with length of front end, uh frame size in general, length of body, length of the hip, all those all of that pretty much falls under the umbrella of maturity, right? And kind of back to that same. You've got the extreme on one end that you've got little midget dwarfs that even in in a commercial setting aren't gonna make weight, you get get to weight quick enough for you. They're not in the commercial setting, but let's just take that foundation principle and just let's just let's just say that that's based from that. Well, why do they need to grow? Well, if you take it back, sure that's why they need it. And then you've got the other side of where they again in the show pick setting, if if their maturity patterns are very late, they won't get mature enough, stout enough, uh, muscle-wise, to and if they do, they're baked all long, and they've got to weigh 350 and they can only weigh three ten. You know, I I can think of a lot of the times thinking about looking at boars and that. There's lots of boars when they hit 350, 360, 370 that look very, very good. And then you see their first pig crop, and it's like, man, those are really I mean, they look a lot like they just didn't get quite stout enough.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Yeah, yeah, at at Barra size, they're not stout enough.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

So so um, you know, you kind of have that, that's a whole nother conversation. But so that there's always an under umbrella, so that was that one, you know, muscle. What's the what's the deal? Let's just take about um feature and bone. What's the what's the umbrella that that falls under? Well, it falls back up to that one we just talked about of uniqueness, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:49

Now, there there's durability that goes into that. Frail legged straight ones, they don't do very good any any facet whatsoever. It doesn't matter if they're on a commercial kill floor or if they're running around in my dirt cellborn out there. Um there's there's negatives to that, right? Um like that there's there's you know there's practical problems in the Ferrand House. Um, but so so what would you say if you said uh or what would be kind of your big picture of why are we take a trait, doesn't matter, and and what's the point?

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Of any trait?

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Pick one, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Um I guess I'll go I'll you kind of skipped muscle, and I think that's one thing that we probably do need to educate our kids a little bit more on, is because muscle is really emphasized, and there's not a show pig in the world that doesn't have enough muscle from an a food chain food industry standpoint. Actually, they have too much.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

Yeah, yeah, the lightest muscled pig would have more than than a commercial ideal.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Yeah, and so I can show pig I I can get on board with the fact when people say like they're too stout, why do we need them to have chests this wide and and butts that wide and backs that big, and you know, I was having a conversation with with the kids when the carcass uh contest results came out um from some of our major shows about cattle that have two bigger ribeyes. Well, if the ribeye's too big, you know, that's inconsistency at the restaurant, you got to cut it too thin to be the same ounce, yada yada yada. And they had never thought about it that way because you know, our our our kids here all the time in the ring, they need to have a big back, they need to have a big shapely back, they need this, they need that. Yes, we like it how it looks, but it it you know, that's one of those things that I do think, you know, I I loved where Brian and Andy were at Houston on width. It was like it had to be enough. Yeah, you you know, your knee needed to be square, but it didn't have to be like a Mac truck like this, you know.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Right. No, and I think that that's again, so let's just draw that delineation because you gave a practical commercial example. Ribis are too big, carcasses are too big, so on so forth. And and you can see that now in the cattle deal where it it keeps shifting. Like what were the steers that you won with, what they weigh?

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Uh my steer that won Fort Worth weighed 1239. Like a baby. Yeah, class two.

SPEAKER_03 40:17

Here we go, class two. Uh not class two, but uh well well, six probably small, yeah. Not winning. But it's it's interesting how that's and then you know, like it seems like when I was I was in college, like if you were above 1330, like sorry, yeah, it's not gonna happen. Yeah, and now it's yeah, they're large and in charge. But you you see somewhat, maybe the commercial industry drives with that. I'm not educated in that, but certainly there's there's a little more disconnect there than there was from what you just said. Right. So you draw that line, and it's the same thing in the pig deal. Like, yeah, the the the ideal from a muscle standpoint, if you just want to talk about sheer fundamentals, even I would argue a lot of the guys that would say we need to be toned downward would say that's not enough in a show pick standpoint. And here here let me tell you why I think this right, wrong, or indifferent. Let me know in the comments. Um not if you think I'm right or wrong. I don't want to know that. Just I want to know your opinion.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

Uh that was a joke.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

Even even we we analyze everything visually. That's that's our only option, right? And that you know, there there's Washington County and Brenham used to have, I assume they still do, uh a I don't know what they call it, carcass pig contest, basically. And that that was it. Like kids raised them, fed them, brought them up. I don't think they brought them up there, obviously. But anyways, harvested them, and that was the show. That was it. So that makes sense. We're visual, yeah, we're making indications, but in the in the pig deal, ex especially just making the comparison, that much muscle is extreme in the commercial industry, and it's also extreme in the pig industry, just it's extreme on the high side, and the the show pig industry is extreme on the low side.

unknown 42:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

And so th there's a just a disconnect drawn there of and again eye appeal and that.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

I mean Yeah, no, and I mean again, it it's what's the purpose? Well, the purpose, you know, we're using this animal to develop young kids, and and um I th I think that's just one of those things where it's a conversation piece. I think it um getting too extreme in muscle uh affects function as much as anything. Definitely there's negatives, you know, uh in both industries. So, you know, I to me that's one of the ones that I think we don't ever really talk about enough that they can get, you know, in my opinion, too stout.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

Right.

SPEAKER_03 42:46

And and and again, there there's you know, we could take shoulders setting cattle or and we could take a lot of things in the pig deal, but there there are still those limits and those lines to be drawn of well what what's the extreme, what's too much.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

And that's that guy's opinion that day.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

That's that guy's opinion that's basing it in a ring on form and function. I I can I can uh I can tell you this. We're out of time looking down here. And we're gonna make this a part two episode and we'll pick up back back right there next time. So let's just let's just we'll answer the yeah, we'll pick back up and cover the other side of the board on the next episode of Show Pig Central in uh two weeks from today is when it'll drop. And we'll keep doing that. So let us know in between the two what you think in the comments. If if you're on YouTube, it's not really comments, I don't think, on on other places, but if you'd like to, it will be on our YouTube channel. Uh, we'd like to hear your thoughts uh of this conversation and um you know again why the purpose of show picks, if we lost our way, if we lost our mind, whatever the title's gonna end up being.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Yeah, I knew the physical trait one was gonna kind of and and that one set off.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

So we'll we'll pick up back right there next time. Thank y'all always for listening to us. If you haven't subscribed to the YouTube channel, um we we've appreciate you doing that. Follow us uh wherever you listen to the podcast. And if you like it and have enjoyed it, share it with somebody else. And we will see you next time.