How to lead anti-racism work your team actually wants to do

Nonprofit leaders often dread anti-racism work. It's a two-day retreat, a book club, a list of behavioral expectations — and it leaves us feeling raw, anxious, or stuck in our heads. What if that's not a personal failing, but a process problem?

In this episode, Hillary Frances makes the case that anti-racism work gets derailed when we treat it as a problem to solve rather than a future to imagine. She shares what she’s learning about collective liberation — an approach to justice work defined not by what it dismantles, but by what it dares to envision.

Then she sits down with Ben Garcia, Executive Director of the American LGBTQ+ Museum in New York City, who has spent 25 years building cultures of equity across museums of every size — and who brings both a practitioner's rigor and a science fiction reader's imagination to the work.

• Why intellectual self-policing makes anti-racism harder, not easier — and what has to shift
• The role of spirit and imagination in moving beyond anxiety
• How Ben has led equity work with teams of 8, 60, and 250 — and what changes at each scale
• The specific question Ben asked his startup team that seeded their entire workplace culture

Guest: Ben Garcia (he/him) has worked for 20 years to help museums become places of welcome and belonging for all people. He started as a gallery guide and educator, moved on to exhibition development, and then served in middle- and upper-management administrative roles, before joining the American LGBTQ+ Museum as Executive Director. He has presented and published regularly on creating structural equity in museums through transparency, accountability, fair labor practices, and by adding missing voices and perspectives.

Prior to joining the American LGBTQ+ Museum, Ben worked in various roles as an educator and administrator at the J. Paul Getty Museum, Skirball Cultural Center, and Hearst Museum of Anthropology. He then served as Deputy Director of the Museum of Us, and as Deputy Executive Director and Chief Learning Officer at the Ohio History Connection. He is versed in museum interpretation, operations, management, and fundraising. Ben led initiatives to return Indigenous ancestral human remains and belongings in San Diego and Ohio. He serves as a board member at Equality Ohio, working to get the Ohio Fairness Act passed.

Ben graduated from the University of Massachusetts at Boston with a B.A. in Art and from Bank Street College of Education with an M.S. Ed. In Museum Leadership. He has shared his life since 1999 with his husband, Scott Fabianek, a UX/UI Designer and comic book artist. Ben is the child of a journalist and visual artist. He has six siblings, thirteen nieces and nephews, and a great-niece and nephew (as well as many beloved in-laws). He is a proud fantasy and science fiction nerd.

Mentioned: brown, a. m. (2019). Pleasure activism: The politics of feeling good. AK Press.

Transcript

My name is Hilary Frances, and one of the things I've been thinking about is how we rehabilitate our confidence to work on anti-racism in our organizations. It's become a tenuous project. For some of us, it has become an off-limits project for fear of losing funding because of our administration's crackdown on DEI, or it's an HR project. It's a two-day retreat with a consultant. It's a book club or a working group. It's facilitated. It gives us homework. It's contentious. It leaves us feeling raw or anxious or embarrassed or angry. So what's happened here? 
 
Today's episode, how leaders can shift the essential work of building an anti-racist culture from a project that triggers anxiety to collective effort that inspires imagination. Today's episode has two parts. Part one, I'll share what I'm learning about the difference between anti-racism projects that we dread and anti-racism work we can look forward to. Part two, I'll bring you pieces of my dialogue with the executive director of the American LGBTQ+ Museum, headquartered in New York City, who shares how he has learned to love equity work 
 
So part one, how leaders shift anti-racism from an HR project or a list of behavioral expectations to something we all look forward to. I'm gonna refer specifically to anti-racism for a few minutes here because I think this specific topic is the hardest for nonprofit leaders to tackle, but I acknowledge that there are many areas of equity work that you're all addressing in your organizations That being said, I want us to move away from thinking about anti-racism work as a project to be completed or a problem to solve. This has led to discouragement. This mentality also led folks to associate anti-racism with wokeness, or to associate anti-racism with shame, or even to associate anti-racism with anti-whiteness. I think part of the reason this happened is because anti-racism is a framework to dismantle racist ideas. I'll be honest that I get intimidated by this. I get overwhelmed by the idea that until we stop benefiting from racism, we will never eliminate racism And that much of how I benefit is unexplored. So I get overwhelmed by the idea that I'm complicit in ways I don't even know, and I get overwhelmed by thinking that I have to radically change my life in order to be part of the solution, otherwise I'm part of the problem. And while that's probably true, and while I need to work on that, you can see that leaving me to my mind and intellect is only part of the equation. So I believe we need to be careful not to camp out in the landscape of our minds. 
 
And now is when I tell you that I've recently discovered another ingredient to this work that's helping me. It's truly the missing piece for me, and that is the role of our collective imagination. Imagining, hoping, dreaming, fantasizing about the world we might have ahead of us. I'm learning that this is the driving spirit, the spirit of anti-racism work. I've noticed that the concept of collective liberation adds this layer of hope and imagination to our anti-racism work. Collective liberation begins with the idea that justice is intersectional, as in we need to fight for the liberation of people with disabilities, people of color, people who identify as queer, the liberation of our ecology, et cetera. But it goes beyond just talking about intersectionality. Collective liberation is an approach to justice work that is in praise of something rather than extinguishing something. If we're fighting for collective liberation, we have a clear vision of what the world could look like without white supremacy. By nature, this work requires a vivid imagination that feels like science fiction, because it's impossible to see with the social and economic technology we have today. I've been a student of adrienne maree brown for a bit now, and she is a student of Octavia Butler, who is known as the mother of Afrofuturism. Afrofuturism being art and literature celebrating what power and liberation looks like for the African diaspora. It's speculating an alternative future. Think Black Panther. So adrienne wrote, "I believe that all organizing is science fiction, that we're shaping the world we long for and have not yet experienced. I believe we are in an imagination battle." 
 
So leaders who want to build an anti-racist organization, all I know is that your work must include an imagination of what's possible, even if it feels sci-fi, and it must be infused with joy. Now, I'm eager for you to hear from a leader who has experimented with leading teams through anti-racism and collective liberation work for teams of eight to teams of over 200. Ben Garcia is the executive director at the American LGBTQ+ Museum, which is headquartered in New York City. For 25 years, Ben has helped museums become places of welcome and belonging for all people. He worked in art, history, and anthropology museums in California and Ohio before joining the American LGBTQ+ Museum. He has presented and published regularly on creating structural equity in museums through transparency, accountability, fair labor practices, And how to add missing voices and perspectives. Ben led initiatives to return indigenous ancestral human remains and belongings in San Diego and Ohio. Ben has several impressive degrees. I've worked with him at the American LGBTQ+ Museum for eighteen months as a consultant and coach to his development team and board development committee. I consider Ben an activist in the true sense that he has a track record of systems change that reverses oppression. I've been compelled by Ben's ability to lead his staff and board through tense conversations, and I wanted to ask him how he has navigated culture building at the various organizations that he has worked. Ben is also immersed in the world of the imagination as he's married to a designer and comic book artist. He's the child of a journalist and visual artist, and he himself loves science fiction. So he's the right person to ask about the intersection of anti-racism and the imagination
 
So I've been struggling a lot with the intellectual work of anti-racism. It feels intellectual to me because it's about eradicating the beliefs that we hold without knowing that we hold them, and it feels like it requires a really astute, shrewd amount of detective work and self-reflection, which is in my head and hypervigilance that for me results in some anxiety. And what I wanna ask you is how you keep yourself engaged in anti-racism, if that's your experience of it as well.
 
I think that this work often will start in the head and unless it really moves into other spaces within yourself, it will be effective and more anxiety producing. Right? Because I think. A lot of people approach this work. I think if people are white or white appearing and, benefit from white privilege as they think about how to be accomplices or allies in anti-racism. A lot of it is sort of the kind of self-policing that you, that you describe, and that is anxiety provoking. like any. Anything. This is a practice and the more you do it, better you'll get at it. I think that you're doing this. On your own. It is much more difficult to move the intellectual sphere into more of a somatic, spiritual grounded, sphere around it because basically we just all have to get really comfortable with being unexpectedly sort of caught up in a moment where bias. Comes out. And something that makes everybody, most everybody feel uncomfortable. And at the heart of this work, you just have to get comfortable saying, oops, ouch. Sorry. Nope. Um, let me just. that back in. And, uh, what I really wanna say is this right. And I that's, that's the hard thing. And I think if each time we get it wrong, we are punishing ourself in some way we will feel anxious. Or if we believe that we have to. Know the right way to think about or speak about something before we address it directly with a person with a different lived experience around race than or ethnicity than we have. it is going to be just very inhibiting. And so I think this work is hardest for people who, have succeeded by studying hard. Um, you know, I think it's, it's hardest for people whose success is mostly around, know, an an intellectual engine.
 
That's so interesting. This work is harder for people who've succeeded by studying hard. Are you someone who's always studied hard and did you have to unlearn that?
 
 So that has not been my experience.
 
 Okay.
 
Um, I am someone who, uh, I think that I navigate most situations using, instinct EQ by reading social clues and context. And. By really paying attention to, of the way I feel than the way I think, and that has disadvantages as well. However, see colleagues of mine, friends of mine who. Always worked very hard to learn what the right answer was and apply that. I think that that is just not the right set of skills for really moving into a comfortable place around our unconscious bias, around our privileges, whatever they might be. because. When it comes down to it, this is gonna be about interactions with people, to avoid those because you're afraid that you'll do something wrong or you'll step into them. I think there's two ways some people step into them cluelessly, you know, that's an expression of privilege, right? Like, I have the right to say or think I want or to say what I think at any moment and that is. A path to micro-aggressions. but I think that the fear of doing it wrong stop you from engaging just reinforces the otherness. Also I think many people feel like it's better not to engage than to engage in the wrong way. But I think depending on where you're positioned in the world and what your gatekeeping and what your work is in the world, that is not going to be an effective way navigate this for many people. So those of us who work in nonprofits or in service agencies or in public facing agencies or in educational spaces, we can't afford to not engage because, work is about the dial toward, greater comfort with. Strategies and tactics to undo structures of oppression.
 
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you mentioned a minute ago that. This work has to move from our head to other parts of ourselves. And I'm thinking about leaders who are deciding how to guide their teams through anti-racism work or collective liberation work or equity work. And typically what I've seen is that it really starts with the intellectual. Stuff. It starts with studying a book, having a training. what do you think about the idea that the intellectual work by itself is not as effective as work that includes imagination or dreaming or spirit or the other parts, including other parts of yourselves that you alluded to earlier?
 
I mean the, the intellectual, the conceptual piece, the intellectual piece is important because it's one of the ways in which we sort of place and process our understanding of our relationship to structural racism, to white supremacy. And, so it's been incredibly helpful. learn the definitions of microaggressions, learn what they are, to understand what privileges, to understand the difference between, racism and p right, so intellectual concepts are helpful in understanding what you're encountering in emotionally, you know, when you work with people or when you're, to move an organization, Greater understanding, greater self-awareness, greater equity and all of that. I think it starts there, but ultimately you need to go to the places that help you find the courage, that help you navigate embarrassment or awkwardness sort of. Help you do something that doesn't feel comfortable to you, whether that is step back, if you're a person who tends to step forward or listen if you're a person who tends to speak. And so the only places that really have ever taught me to be different are places where I engage Spirit you know, I think psychology is one of those spaces, there's a piece of this work that isn't about intellect, that isn't even about psychology and sort of self-awareness, but that is about your relationship to something greater than. You a part of, but that also exists outside of you. Right? And is not to say that if you're an atheist, you can't effectively be anti-racist. That's not true. That idea of something bigger, that what I call spirit, it's really whatever it is you believe in that motivates you decisions that are. Ethically or morally, comfortable or, you know, preferable in, in your mind. And so for some people that concept is just a concept of human kindness. For some it's about the design of universe. For some, it's about the randomness of the universe. But feel like all of us, at a certain point, um, consider. What that is for us and for me personally, this work is only effective if there's space for that in your organization, in your training, in whatever that might be.
 
Mm. Mm-hmm. Is it safe? To summarize, the core idea here is that we can't just police ourselves. We have to have something we're dreaming about.
 
Yes. You have to be able to imagine for yourself, how you might navigate the world differently. You have to be able to imagine the experience of other people and what it would feel like if you were in their situation. And you have to be able to envision, it might look like if White supremacy, misogyny, we're not so deeply embedded in the human experience of the human psyche.
 
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've been learning about the concept of Afrofuturism lately, which is aligned with our need to dream of something better, which might require science fiction because it's, it's a world that we can't even fathom right now where. White supremacy is, is gone and, and oppression is gone. I'm curious in your experience, what the queer version of Afrofuturism is, or is there a genre of literature, music, or art that imagines a world that does not yet exist for the sake of hope?
 
Yeah, I think what's so powerful about science fiction, certain kinds of fantasy literature, is it has allowed. Artists, authors to imagine that and to help us see what that could look like, right? Like whether that is the left hand of darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin, for me it, it, it tends to center around literature because I'm a reader and I'm a science fiction and I'm a fantasy reader. And so I think about that. I think that, if we think about what adrienne maree brown said, which is that, our work is. To change the world into science, fictional behavior, right? being concerned with the way our actions and beliefs today will shape the future tomorrow and next there is, it is that there is a leap of faith. That we have to believe the incremental steps that we are taking today will create a stronger platform for people to take bigger steps in the future. The previous generation walk so that we can run kind of idea. And I do think that we're in a very challenging moment right now, because there are dominant cultural forces at work in the United States, that are impacting cultures around the world are pushing back against. A particular dream, right? A dream of an anti-racist future. And so for those of us who are alive right now and trying to take those steps will allow future generations to run, I think that looking at. Storytellers and looking at artists is going to be the best way for us to that. 
 
Um, I think, again, you, we were talking about the role of intellect versus the role of. Imagination and dreaming. This is very much a place where, intellectually there will be a million reasons why we could, envision a trajectory that does not lead to, a queer future where queerness is the norm. We have real evidence in the world around us, especially in this idea of sort of a queer ecology, this universe or this, planet has relied on queerness on non-binary nest. Um. In order to thrive and grow. I mean, this, the universe is queer. that the biological world is a mix of sort of binary and non-binary, that helps us imagine, if we think about. The natural world separate from the ways in which people have tried to shape it, shows us a baseline queerness of sort of non-binary and binary, impulses coexisting a way that. Led to evolution and led to the development of this incredible biodiversity on this planet that humans have taken firmly in hand and shifted, in the same way that have taken firmly in hand sort of notions So superiority, white supremacy, misogyny, which is at the heart of homophobia, So, we have it all around us. That's what can feed our subconscious. but I think you're right. It's, it's dreaming and imagination have to be a part of this work because, um, it's the only way that we will stay. Motivated, hopeful, optimistic, energized.
 
Yeah. Yeah. And your beautiful reference to the fact that the earth is innately queer and that we have that as a baseline to reference for our imagination is so interesting. Let's bring this from a really poetic level to a, working with our teams in our workplace level. So what ideas do you have for leaders who want to facilitate this type of work for their teams in their workplace?
 
I think that a couple of things. One. Leaders need to make sure that they have their own practice in this. They need to find separate from their team, a group, path, a teacher, with whom they're doing this work, right? I think you are not doing it for yourself the most, you know, learning together is gonna be incredible value. And valuable as part of this. And I have some very specific thoughts about what that path to learning together as a team is. But the most powerful thing a leader is going to do to help shift culture is to model it. So this is gonna be in unguarded moments, not when everyone's gathered together to think about this together, but in another moment when your team is looking at you and noticing you actually walk the talk in all parts of your life, and when you stumble, how you. Deal with that moment, right? Your comfort around, oh, that was a piece of my bias coming out right there. I'm, you know, I'm sorry. Let's like and do something different. So you need to have your own practice. You need to have your own community and your own support so that. You can really walk the talk as you bring this into the organization. So that's number one. number two, as you do this in the organization, it has to be facilitated. This is not something that should be the labor of anybody within the team, including you. You really do need to bring someone in. To help facilitate a path. And I think that, the elements that I have found to be effective in moving a staff and a board a learning journey, around oppression, whether that is colonial mindset. Whether that is white supremacy, whether that is misogyny, and homophobia is, you bring someone in who is able to share sort of the core concepts, can facilitate conversations where people who are at different points on their journey can, Say things without being, jumped on or punished for, for where they are on that journey.
 
And so you just need a very expert who has the emotional intelligence and the wisdom to structure things in a way that. Allow everyone to grow, because group of people will be made up of who are at a different point in this journey and who come from a different set of lived experiences. So I think, we have to just know that as we go into this work with a team, they are gonna be responding to what's happening, outside of the workplace as much as they're responding to what's happening inside. our job is to try to say, listen, we don't have control, um, or as much control as we would like on changing national, the statewide, the global dynamics, but we can try to create a place in this organization where we dream together. And imagine together, a future where, and then finish that sentence, I think. What you can do is address the powerlessness that people will feel invite them into a co-creation process for a space where they maybe can be a little less guarded when they come to work or when they engage with this group. You have to help them dream or envision of why that would be. Desirable for them. So yeah, so I think, do your own work. Bring in an outside facilitator, because this can't be the labor of people, within their own system. Make sure you're addressing the larger context of the world, and really think about why you're doing this because. What's so damaging about the current, attacks on. Anti-racist work is that, this idea of woke or the sort of mockery that has become much a norm in certain parts of the cultural landscape for any organization that is trying to make space to address reality of structural oppression. Those messages have really gotten under our skin and into our brains, and so it takes a different kind of courage as a leader right now sort of quiet the ways in which. the mockery of, DEI or woke, as well as, the legitimate, critiques any sort of overcorrection that has happened in institutional, ways, there's a lot to quiet have to really find the core. And if the core is about, I think, I love the way that you talk about this, about dreaming together and imagining this future, and that the core motivation is about trying to create a place where the people who are part of this organization are subject to, bias, harm, from people who haven't thought about their relationship to racism and white supremacy, or to misogyny and homophobia. If that's the goal. It really takes a lot to both quiet within your mind and quiet within your organization. All of the current attacks on people and organizations that are trying to do that.
 
Mm-hmm. Okay. So I really wanna circle back to the part where you talked about folks on your team might be feeling powerless, I really liked how you said the answer to that is to sit down together and dream of a way we interact with each other. That represents the world we hope exists outside of this place. So we model here what we wish to see out there. Is that kind of what you're saying?
 
 Yeah. Yeah, I think so.
 
Okay. So how would you do that? Like brass tack, like would this be a dream board or just a chit chat during a staff meeting? Or
 
I've worked with a staff of about 60 and a board of about 25 at one organization. and I've worked. With a staff of 250 and a board of, a smaller board another. And, and now I'm in an organization where the team is, fewer than 10, and the board is, larger than that. It's 30 people. What we did in my current organization is we're a startup, we sat together and I invited everyone to share things that they had experienced at other workplaces that they would hope. They and others would not experience in this workplace. and so it did start by people talking about things that they had experienced. As queer people, as people of color, as fem presenting, other organizations or just things that they saw that. That were really inequitable. It wasn't always about sort of identity. Some of it was about, we were never able to see the budget at this place, or, we had no idea what was going on, with the leadership. You know, we'd never heard anything about it. And so, the container for this was, we're building a workplace culture together. Let's stream and imagine what that could be if it didn't default to some of the norms we have all learned in work, which is, connected to hierarchy, connected to capitalism and connected to basically. Mistrust of workers. So that was what, what we did. And we ended up Approaches, policies, preferences that have really seeded the way we work together in this organization. And we're about to double the staff this year. And so we'll be working with an outside facilitator, kind figure out how, as our systems become more complex, because there will be more areas and layers within them than there were when we were just four or five people. how can we make sure that that complexity doesn't lead to us defaulting to those sort of corporate or workplace norms that we don't believe in. We're trying to queer the form, of the museum as well as interpret queer history. So yeah, so that's one way and. That worked with this small team.
 
I was working in the team of 60, what we did was that was an organization held large collections of indigenous ancestral human remains. So the literal bodies of indigenous people that had been taken from their burial sites and cemeteries and brought to the museum for, for study by earlier generations of archeologists and anthropologists. were holding the belongings or the cultural items from, um, from many indigenous cultures as well. And we were looking to shift. The relationship of that organization to indigenous communities, in the immediate area and across the country and the world. So we embarked on a process to create a set of policies that were called the Colonial Pathway policies and. The way that we did that was to bring a group of staff and board members together. So it was about six staff and six board members in an ongoing working group. And that group did a lot of learning together about history, that group included three indigenous people, on the staff one indigenous person on the board. So, in a group of about 12 four were, shared lived experiences as indigenous people on this country. Um, and over the course of six months through biweekly meetings, we came up with some baseline. Changes and approaches that sort of informed the development, in between the meetings. I and our, director of decolonizing initiatives worked together to like draft actual policies based on the conversations. so that was the pathway there. So it wasn't like the full organization sitting together to co-create, it was a representative group, but they came from all different parts of the organization and sat in different sort of levels of the organization. then we took that work of that group We shared it with the full board and we shared it with the full staff through a series of trainings and conversations, again, led by an outside person. And so, that was the model that we used there. 
 
And then when I worked in a very large organization, with about 250 people, 58 sites around the state, in that situation, we were looking to do a couple of things. One was we were on a similar process around changing the culture. There to be one that was collaborative with indigenous communities, but we also were trying to change the culture there around, some economic inequity that had. Become set in there. We had people who were making very different salaries different parts of the organization for effectively the same job. And I think the fact that we were addressing economic inequity, which hit all people in the organization, and also addressing this sort of decolonizing. Context and a shift to move indigenous belongings and bodies away from the organization and back to communities, which impacted people professionally, but personally impacted, More external stakeholders than internal. I think it was great because I think, those processes happening together people see that this was about a larger context of equity and structural, oppression. And that one piece of it was. sort of imperial settler mindset, that led to the collection of indigenous, ancestral human remains and belongings. And another facet of it was, ways in which different parts, different skills are valued. In different ways in an organization and how unfair that. is because, it's just rooted in an idea that people who have greater levels of education should get paid more than people who have less schooling. Or that certain, you know, occupations within an organization have an inherently higher value than others.
 
 Right.
 
We were trying to show is no, everything is equally important for us to be able to make this whole enterprise work. just because you work in fundraising doesn't mean you should get paid higher than someone who works in education or in operations. If you have the same level of responsibility, or just because you're a curator doesn't mean you should make more, than someone who's working the front desk. If you have the same level in the organization and of responsibility so those are some different examples of the way that it worked in different organizations.
 
It's so helpful to hear three different case studies from three different sized organizations. So if I could really brutally boil it down, it would be your experience on a very small team like a startup is involve everyone, mid-sized team. You get a working group, large team, choose the most systemic challenge that will create equity the most, which it was your pay scale. Is that, uh, is that an accurate, brutal way to summarize?
 
That's absolutely right.
 
One more quick question, Ben, and it's gonna be about policy because you said something really interesting when you were giving the example of your small team sitting together and saying things that they hope exist in this workplace. And then you said, we took those and created policies. I'm wondering if you can think of one or two policies. That you all created that are working really well for you, that you really like, that you're proud of.
 
I think one thing that I am proud of is that we have transparency around the economics of the organization. our budget is visible to every single member of the organization. knows what everybody is being paid, the fact that it is available and that, we have established these just very clear equity based lines around compensation is great. We also. Established a spread in the organization that the higher paid of staff, wouldn't, there wouldn't be the kind of inequity or imbalance around salary scales. So we have set the highest salary in the organization, which is mine. We have set. Split up so that that will never be more than three times the salary of the lowest paid person in the organization. So that's the spread, and that will always be the spread. And so if I feel like I should earn more or I wanna earn more, I need to bring up the salary for every other person in the organization. I can't make a side deal for myself. 
 
You know, I think those are things that I hope will inspire other organizations to follow suit. The other thing that we did, I'm really proud of is looked not at what the sector pays in New York City. For salaries, we looked at what the real cost of living in New York City is, for people. At different levels of professional experience. So our entry level compensation is $87,000. So that is the amount of money that we believe, allows you to work one job in New York City. In, in an entry level role, like our goal is that people won't have to get a second job to be able to afford to live in this city. And New York's very expensive. And so, I'm really proud that, we didn't do what so many organizations do, which is like, oh, we'll do a salary survey and we'll make sure we're in the top 75th blah, blah, blah. So, you know, that just shows the problem in the sector. It doesn't. not actually the problem. So we pay out of proportion to many of our very, large, long, established peers. What was important to me was to establish it when we were small. What I said to the board is it is better to grow with. All of like our comp and benefits in the right place than to try to grow quickly and then like retrofit, e equity into those areas. And the board agreed. And I'm really proud that happened.
 
Like adrienne maree brown, I believe we are in an imagination battle. We need leaders of organizations like yours to lock in on the images of the world you are creating through your equity work, your anti-racism work, your collective liberation work. Let's start with our imagination more than our intellect, even if what we imagine feels like science fiction right now. 

Tailwinds is a production of Flying Whale Strategies, a consulting firm that is equipping teams to solve impossible problems. I'd like to thank Ben Garcia for sharing his wisdom with us today. If you'd like to learn more about his work in New York and the work of the American LGBTQ+ Museum, please visit americanlgbtqmuseum.org. And if you'd like to learn more about Flying Whale Strategies, please visit our website at flyingwhalestrategies.com. Thanks for listening.