The Sport and Performance Psychologist with Sarah Castillo, Program Dir., Sport and Performance Psychology

Dr. Sarah Castillo, Program Director of the Sport and Performance Psychology (SPP) programs at UWS, discusses what SPP is all about including what graduates can expect to accomplish with their degrees. She also offers up some personal insights explaining how she found her way into the field. 

To learn more, visit us at https://www.uws.edu. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Naturopathic medicine, I love the combination of being able to work with things like nutrition, for instance, along with being able to still work with the medications.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

One of the things about naturopathic medicine is that we believe that the body really has the capacity to heal itself if you give it the right tools and the right circumstances.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Greetings, everyone. Welcome to the Whole Health Continuum, the University of Western States podcast. Located in Portland, Oregon, and online, the University of Western States offers a world-class integrated healthcare education focusing on the whole person and providing an evidence-informed approach to health and wellness. For more information about UWS, visit us at UWS.edu. My name is Nathan Long, president of the university, and today I am so very pleased. This is our first twofer, our first duet to be joined by these two distinguished individuals, Dr. Marsha Franguber, Dean of our College of Naturopathic Medicine program, and Dr. Joshua Rubinstein, our vaunted associate dean. And both are here representing the college to talk about the newest of our program offerings and all the goodness that comes with naturopathic medicine. May I call you Marsha and Joshua? Is that okay for this uh podcast?

unknown 1:32

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Of course.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

All right. So, Marsha and Joshua, thank you so much for joining us. Maybe let's start with you, uh, Dr. Prangoober. Give us a little bit about how you got into the profession, what were some pivotal moments for you and why? And Joshua, I'll have you follow directly right after Dr. Prangoober.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Well, I probably came in through the back door. I started my career teaching in a uh special education population and did that for many years, realized there are other things that could be done besides what I was doing in the classroom. So started to explore administration. From there I realized there's much more that I think could be done. So that led me to healthcare. And, you know, one thing after another, I realized the healthcare I wanted was more naturopathic than anything else. And so that's when I enrolled in naturopathic school many years after I started out on that journey. And then ultimately returned back to education in naturopathic medicine after practicing for many years.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

A big full circle for you, right? What what was the before we get into Joshua, your your background story? I'm just curious, Marsha, what what was the catalyst for you? You you were in special education, correct? And and as you there must have been some moment or moments that just said, uh, this is a pathway I want to follow.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Well, I was working with severely and profoundly handicapped children, uh, teens. And it be as I was teaching, because part of the teaching was teaching them to eat, not to prepare food, but to eat, it became obvious to me that there were differences in their behavior in part based on what they were eating. So that started that step-by-step process into other avenues. And I started studying other um forms of healthcare just out of interest, not related to them, and began to realize, oh, some of this would apply to helping them uh proceed forward with what they were able to do. So I think it it's really back to those early days um in my uh sorry.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

All right, let's let's rewind that just a little bit. So Yeah, sorry. No, you're good. Uh just start with back to those early days.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Okay. So it really goes back to those early days when I was uh teaching and the pieces began to fall into place about how responsive students were to what I was teaching, but also how I was teaching in terms of the food we used to learn to eat. So it was pretty primitive in terms of uh the light bulbs going on, they were very uh one after another, but there was no uh striking moment I will say there was later on when I began to pursue um an interest in homeopathy by going to a school of Chinese medicine because I offered both. And while I was at the school, another classmate of mine uh and I were chatting, and he said, Oh, sounds like what you really are interested in is naturopathic medicine. And it was like that was the lightning bolt. And I said, Oh my gosh, I've never heard of that. Tell me more. And that was it. I resigned from my position in administration in the school district and enrolled in naturopathic school.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

And the bug bit you, and here you are.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Oh, it did.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Never left. That's true. Joshua, what about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Well, uh, I was attending the University of Puget Sound uh and I was a biology major there. Um, and uh, you know, I'd gone to UPS with the intention of going into research, but the more time I did doing research, I just realized that it's all about replicability, showing that you can do the same thing over and over again, get the same results. And I just really realized that I didn't want to live my life in a lab, honestly. Uh, and so I was looking around for options. I also had some personal personal uh health issues at the time uh and really was led into especially working with diet and nutrition uh as a way of healing myself, and that eventually led me to naturopathic medicine.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Fabulous. All right. And when you came out of University of Puget Sound, how did you like how did you steer yourself or who steered you into the naturopathic medicine realm? What what what was the I'll kind of dig in a little bit more on the Marcia Prenguber, sorry. What was there a catalyst? And and if so, so yes, you had the undergrad, you didn't want to pursue research, but there had to be like most people don't walk out of school with, like, boy, I want to be a naturopathic physician or a chiropractor or what have you. It's it's cultivated a lot of times, it seems like anyway. Maybe I'm mistaken in that assumption.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Well, I think there were a couple things going on for me. It was actually my zoology professor, Ed deGras, who really introduced me to naturopathic medicine and encouraged me to go check out Best Year University, which is where I went to school for my ND degree. Uh and um, you know, with regards to that catalyst, you know, I think it just really felt right on a lot of different levels. I knew that I wanted to work with people. Like I said, I'd been in a lab for many, many, many hours and really wanted to work with people. Um, I wanted to really help address the underlying cause of what's going on for folks with their bodies and with their various health concerns. You know, I think so many times we tend to uh, you know, come up with short-term solutions that might help mitigate the symptoms someone's experiencing, but doesn't really actually get to the issue that underlies why they're sick in the first place, you know. And so for me, especially with my health uh issues, um, I really wanted to go into especially diet as that foundational piece of uh, you know, how do I really establish a healthy uh practice for myself on a daily basis? Naturopathic medicine, I love the combination of being able to work with things like nutrition, for instance, along with being able to still work with the medications so that we can actually address the whole person.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

That's great. That's great. Okay. Well, really beautiful. Thank you for sharing a little bit about yourselves. We're gonna get in in a moment into the whole UWS naturopathic medicine program, but I think for the benefit of our larger audience, um, in a nutshell, and either one of you can take this one on, just what is naturopathic medicine? And kind of a follow-up to that is why is it an important discipline in the health sciences, specifically in the area of medicine, uh, uh allopathic medicine as a prime example, but any other branch of that. So either one of you want to take that on, be open to that.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Joshua, you want to start?

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Sure. Uh I think of naturopathic medicine to me as really the ideal primary care provider, right? We're able to work with folks on diet and exercise. Again, those foundational pieces that if you don't have them in place long-term, really where are you going?

unknown 8:58

You know.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Uh so I feel like we're able to work with those foundational pieces and also to do things like sports examinations and annual examinations for our patients. Uh, we also will prescribe pharmaceuticals. Uh, here in the state of Oregon, we have a full scope as far as prescriptive rights. And so we're able to manage those medications as needed for our patients while at the same time providing them with options, right? We can work with those medications. We can also work with uh things like herbal medicines using teas or tinctures or homeopathic medicines. And to me, that's really the appeal of naturopathic medicine is that we have so many different options. So we really can custom tailor a treatment plan for that individual's needs, find what works for them best.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

That's great. Marsha, anything to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 9:48

I think one of the things about naturopathic medicine is that the we believe that the body really has the capacity to heal itself if you give it the right tools and the right circumstances. Instead of invading, we're trying to support it. And so a lot of our tools that Joshua was referring to really help to stimulate that process, whether it's botanical medicine, homeopathy, the use of hot and cold water applications, nutrition, lots of ways, but it's trying to move the body to heal itself. Obviously, that's not always uh the way we can go. And so you do need to step in with uh more specific tools to try and um correct the problems, but we're trying to set it up so that it's a successful effort on the body's part.

SPEAKER_03 10:39

I got you. So you know, I think for the curious, right, those individuals who may be contemplating med school or another career in the health sciences, um, and they go, Well, this naturopathic medicine program or or a program in naturopathic medicine sounds intriguing. Um, it sounds like I have the ability to practice similarly or the same as a primary care physician in some places. Um is that a fairly accurate statement? And are they going to have the same type of impact with patients that a typical quote unquote or a conventional physician would have? I hate to use those binary terms, but I'm just trying to think about our general audience here.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Sure. I I would say that it depends on where you're working and living. But yes, we're trained as primary care physicians, as Joshua had pointed out. So we do the same thing, only we have additional uh tools uh such as homeopathy, botanical medicine. We're trained in all of those things, hydrotherapy, physical medicine, we do that as well. And so it's like a bonus from my perspective. Depending on where you live and the scope of practice, um it will expand or limit what you can do. For example, as Joshua pointed out, the um pharmaceutical scope is quite broad in Oregon. That's not the case in every state, but you use the other tools. I've worked in states that uh don't have that expansive scope of practice, and so you use the other tools, and it's it works very well. If you need a patient to have some pharmaceutical, you're just working closely, collaboratively with the primary care physician who's an MD or a DO who has prescriptive authority. But you can uh you can practice naturopathic medicine just about anywhere with the tools you're trained in, whether you have pharmaceutical scope or not. Did that answer your question?

SPEAKER_03 12:44

It answered it beautifully. It answered it very, very beautifully. Um we're gonna shift to the UWS uh University of Western States program, and we'll get into some of the other, we'll call them hot topic issues in just a little bit, because I know in the back of folks' minds, um, there's probably a bit of or a few questions out there about what is this really, and and some myths and and the like that abound over naturopathic medicine. But for now, in terms of our University of Western States uh NMD, that's where we're gonna refer to that in shorthand, the Naturopathic Medicine Doctoral Program. What is its distinctive nature and and why? How does this tie into whole person health, which is something we embrace? And I'll leave it to one or both of you to tackle that one.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Joshua, you want to start on that?

SPEAKER_01 13:42

I I think we have an excellent program that really brings together, to me, uh, the very best as far as uh uh you know modern research and what it implies as far as what we can do most efficaciously to help our patients, both with using pharmaceuticals as well as herbal medicines and nutritional supplements. So we we really have that emphasis on evidence-based medicine uh throughout woven throughout our program. We have some specific classes in it so that students can really learn to evaluate the research that they're looking at in the first place. Uh but then we weave that throughout the curriculum. Uh partly, I think it's an important bridge between naturopathic medicine and conventional, uh conventional medicine, you know, that evidence-based medicine uh piece that you can send along those recommendations, for instance, to a conventional medical doctor, for instance, along with citations and say, like, hey, this is actually the research supporting what we're doing what we're doing here, right? And it looks like it does have some efficacy. Uh, and therefore, I think that lends credence to both the medicine as well as to our graduates in their practice.

unknown 14:47

That's great.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

I think another piece that we've incorporated, integrated into the program is the functional medicine curriculum. So students don't have to, if they're interested in functional medicine, don't have to do an add-on either while they're in school or after they graduate. It's integrated right into the curriculum. So if they're taking uh a course in gastroenterology as an example, they get our traditional approach to gastroenterology, which is a basic diagnosis course information like any physician would get. Um, we also cover all of the tools, including pharmacology, but also botanical medicine, nutrition, all of those other components. And as well as integrating the functional medicine approach. Interestingly, functional medicine is uh developed in uh conjunction with naturopathic medicine, so it's a perfect uh mesh to work together. And when they finish, they have all of that in their uh toolbox and uh know how to use all of those components. So that makes us pretty unique in the naturopathic educational world.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

I mean, that's a huge differentiator as as far as I understand it. So yeah, kudos to you and kudos to the faculty for really driving this forward as a true innovation in the naturopathic medicine space. I guess in terms of, we're gonna switch for a minute to the curriculum. So, Marsha, I'd like to ask you a bit about the kind of broad scope of when a student comes to UWS to study naturopathic medicine, how long is the program? What are some of the key moments in their career here, uh, pursuing the degree, the milestones? And then Joshua uh would like to switch over to you to talk specifically about the clinical experience, what's involved with that? How do they get on-the-ground training, so to speak, here and elsewhere? So, Marsha, I'm gonna switch over to you first and have you talk just for a moment about the curriculum. It's like boil three years into one minute, please. But yeah, seriously, I think you can do it. You've done a great job so far of articulating these things.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

So the curriculum starts out like curriculum in almost any medical school in terms of you always start with the basic sciences. You learn anatomy, physiology, pathology, those kinds of things. Um, but as we're doing that, we're integrating um some clinical aspects so that the students feel like they're actually becoming doctors right from the get-go, right? So it keeps their interest, but also allows them to apply all of those things that they're learning in the basic sciences and which they're gonna use heavily when they come to diagnosis. Um so they take clinical skills classes right from the beginning alongside all of the others. Um, we bring in uh standardized patients who are actors trained to be to be patients so that students learn to work with them right off the bat. Um as they move through the curriculum, through those, and it's a 14-quarter curriculum, they're done in three and a half years instead of four years because we don't take uh summers off. We want to keep that brain, those big brain cells going with all of the medicine that they're learning. So they get two-week breaks in between. So we start to incorporate um courses that are treatment specific. So they start in botanical medicine. And a few quarters later they add in homeopathy, they're getting hydrotherapy, they're getting nutrition as they go along, keeps all of that um coursework in metabolism and immunology and microbiology uh alive and fresh in terms of application. So they're getting that as they go, and they do that um for the first probably seven or eight quarters. In quarter seven, they actually start in the clinic, and I won't say more about that, I'll let Joshua talk about that. But they build on that. So they're getting anatomy and physiology and pathology, but it's refreshed when they go into systems courses like cardiology, gastroenterology, urology, and that's reinforcing what they're getting in their um treatment courses like botanical medicine, nutrition. So it's a constant um dive deeper each with each course as they go through um the systems and pull it all together. And then they get to the clinic, they keep learning all of those things, but simultaneously they're in the clinic.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Got it. Really well articulated. Josh, Joshua, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Well, and the the clinic is really where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. You know, that's where you actually get to apply all of this theoretical information you've been learning in class to real life patients, right? So we recruit patients from the greater Portland community. Uh one thing that's amazing about our UWS clinic uh is that it's no charge. You know, so folks can come to see us, uh, whether they have insurance that covers naturopathic medicine or not. Uh we have our student clinicians that are supervised by uh licensed naturopathic doctors here in the Portland area. We've got some great clinicians currently uh on staff. Uh, and typically the students will be working with the patient, and that doc will be, you know, holding their hand more, so to speak, at the beginning of that clinical education, uh, as far as guidance, as far as being in the room more. And ultimately, they're helping the licensed doctor, naturopathic doctor, is helping to uh structure that visit in such a way that the patient is getting what they need, uh, as well as, of course, uh designing the treatment plan and prescribing any medications as needed for these patients as well. Uh as far as the clinic itself, it's a beautiful facility. Uh, they're remodeling a lot of it right now to be even better. Uh, we've got a brand new apothecary. We have a hydrotherapy suite, which I think is one really exceptional thing about our clinic. Uh, we're one of the only naturopathic clinics in the Portland area to have a hydrotherapy suite. So we can perform uh those medicines like constitutional hydrotherapy and infrared saunas. Uh, and that's just a boon to our patients, right? Because they can then take advantage of that. Uh, and I'm hoping that lends itself to some great things in the future, too, as we build here.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Amen. And in that clinic, I mean, it has just come so far in the last few months, let alone the last couple of years. Uh, great credit to Dr. Pranguber, you and uh Dr. Rubinstein for your vision to move that forward. It's super exciting. So I'm a student. I've gone through this program, I've gone through this fabulous clinical experience. I'm just full of boundless energy to get out there and do the work. Um where do I go, Marsha, Joshua? Like, how do what what what work is out there for a naturopathic physician? Can I work in a hospital? Do I have to start up my own clinic or can I? Can I work with other naturopaths? Can I teach? What are what are my options?

SPEAKER_00 22:09

There are lots of options. You can do all of those things. It's typical that a student will say one thing when they start, and by the time they graduate, they've completely changed their mind about what they want to do. And I went through that same process, so I understand that. But I would say the majority, at least probably 50, 60 percent, will go and start up their own clinics. Uh, maybe find a friend to start up a clinic with. Um, a lot of students I have found will start work in a clinic with a different kind of provider. In this case, uh, I would anticipate chiropractic providers would be common. Um a lot of them now we're seeing a little bit more of a role toward wanting to be hired by an established clinic so that they don't have to have the output of funds to get a clinic going. Um, but we also see some who uh will work in hospital settings. There's not uh as many of those as I would like to see. I worked in a hospital, a traditional hospital for 14 years, so it's possible to do it. Um some others will spend their time doing research. They'll work for companies that want research on certain botanicals, um, they'll do their own research in a much bigger aspect. They'll write lots of uh will do that, and many of them will teach. They'll go in and start. Um I would say the most traditional path is that they start teaching anatomy and physiology, and then they expand um to other uh areas, botanical medicine, homeoptic, whatever. Um, but there's many, many options. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Joshua, anything you can I think the main thing I would add to that would just be that that uh one thing that's certainly a positive development since when I graduated 20 years ago is a huge improvement in the number of residency sites available for our graduates. Oh, great. Uh so that really enhances, of course, their clinical education.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

That's that's terrific. I I think sometimes there's uh having the the clarity of okay, there's a pathway both into the degree and upon graduation. I have these internships, these postdoc opportunities, and these employment opportunities provide students with just ideas and pathways that they can then start to sink their teeth into. One of the biggest challenges, I think, is we look at today's society, and I this isn't a uh folks are thinking in bad ways. I understand it, I think we all do, is the idea that when you graduate, and you're gonna probably come out with some debt, if not more debt than you anticipated, uh, regardless of the graduate program you go into, um, that I'm gonna be making six-figure uh incomes or salaries along the way. Um, and uh, I don't know about both of you, but I think it took me about 20 years eventually to get to a point where I felt like, okay, I'm finally where I need to be. And it doesn't have to be that long. It these are decisions I made in my own career pathway. So I I don't want to color that. But uh, Joshua and Marcia, any thoughts around earning potential and you know, how to navigate those first years after the doctorate has been completed.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

My go ahead, Joshua. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Oh, I I was gonna say um it's such an interesting topic and it's a challenging topic. Uh, you know, graduating with the uh debt from any professional degree is going to be a calculus that you have to really think about. Um I think that from my perspective, it I mean, first of all, it's worth it. It's a beautiful medicine. I love it. Uh I think people get into this medicine because they feel like, hey, this is this is what I want to do with my life. You know, I want to help people and really address the cause of why they're sick in the first place. That's why most people become natrophetic doctors, in my experience. Um, there are several of my colleagues who are doing great. You know, um, they have booming practices, they're helping lots of folks. Uh, you have to be a good business person as well, which is kind of one of the challenges. So, especially for those folks who graduate and start up their own practice. Um, I really emphasize the need to, you know, get that foundation in your business skills, ideally before you graduate, right? Uh we facilitate that here in the program. We have classes in business education. Uh, and there's more that I typically want to see them develop as far as their uh skill set going into practice for themselves because it's important. It's a lot to juggle, it really is. And so that's I think part of the appeal that Marsha was referring to earlier about joining an existing practice is that hopefully while you're doing that, you're saying in your residency, you're a year or two out, you're also at the same time learning how to how the business runs, you know, and you're getting to figure that out so that then if you go off and start your own practice, you're not just starting from scratch. That's great. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

I I think there's a uh mental emotional process that goes on between the time you graduate and you no longer have loans coming in and accumulating, and now you have to start earning and paying it back. And I think because you have to start earning it, there's some shift that has to happen that this is gonna take time, it's not a quick fix. Um, and how to plot and plan that as you go along. So I know a lot of uh graduates do spend a lot of time trying to decide what to do. And I mean, I had visions when I was a student of this fabulous clinic I would have. And then as I got closer to graduation, I realized, who are you kidding? You're not a millionaire here. Let's just get real. And then you decide what path you want to take. But it's there is a mental shift that has to take place there.

SPEAKER_03 28:23

And you know, for those who pursue academics, such as yourself or the uh the academy as a pathway, you're impacting lives 10, 20, 30, 100 times over in many cases, right? So uh regardless of the institution you're working at, you're doing a lot of great things for students. So you may not be a millionaire in that way, Dr. Pran Goob, but you're certainly uh well rewarded uh in many other ways. So we appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

It's a choice we make, right? How you want to be paid.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

That's right. So briefly, um, you know, we don't we we could probably spend a whole podcast episode, which we will probably do, by the way, um, on the myths and biases around naturopathic medicine. And just a little bit of a tee up for this. Some years ago, um there was a a big to-do over claims that, you know, and you can make this case in other professions too, that there are overextrapolations, that certain forms of naturopathic medicine could cure cancer without seeking the support or help of conventional medicine or doctors. Um, and a naturopathic physician actually came out and said, actually, that's not true, and here's why. And I think did a really good service to the profession at large, right? And in taking that on. Um, and but I'm also thinking of things like um, you know, the the the sort of picture or view of the naturopathic or the whole health provider, um, that they're a certain type of person. That, you know, you can't be a, you know, maybe a traditional person born in the Midwest, a traditional meaning, you know, kind of what you might view as that Midwestern individual who grew up on a farm and had cows, like maybe like myself. I didn't grow up on a farm and had cows, but I grew up around that. Um, and that this isn't for me. This is only for the West Coast types, that it's only for those who really get it on the alternative medicine side. And I've had the pleasure of interacting with so many different naturopaths from a broad swath of backgrounds, right? So the Midwesterners, the East Coasters, the West Coasters, the international folks. So taking your own backgrounds into account and some of the myths you've heard, maybe take one or two that are of particular interest to you that you'd like to dispel maybe for the audience today or address. And I I I'm always happy to provide fodder if you need it.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

So Joshua, you want to start on that?

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Why don't you start this time?

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Okay, I can do that. Well, I do, I mean, some of it is people who express interest in naturopathic medicine, and they I don't think they always know what they're asking about, they're exploring. And some are truly wanting to tell people to exercise more and to have a certain kind of cup of tea and to eat more fruits and vegetables. And that's all great, but often not enough, and it's not getting down to the diagnosis piece. But I think that um having that limited amount of information can be helpful, but it also can be uh problematic for people who go into a deeper level, such as uh those of us who went to naturopathic medical school over that much time and got that information and uh became licensed. And I, you know, I have some experience with this in a former position I was in. And I think that uh the problem is people don't always know, especially if you're in a location where uh licensure has yet to come about. And so now we there's confusion about what people know and who you should see and who you should uh take at face value. And so I think it creates a little bit of a problem for both sides in terms of people who are still pursuing it but not wanting to get to the in-depth component of diagnosing, for example, and then uh seeing through a treatment with uh a more educated level of understanding of botanical medicine, for example, or nutrition. And I think that um it it confuses the people around them. The the uh when they see another physician who says and they hear that the patient went to see a naturopath, they don't know what level of education they've had. And so that uh understanding is really helpful for both the public and for all of the professionals around to know. And I think that's they have a place, but they don't have a place that is confusing without some kind of uh uh licensure, for example, having demon that you have taken licensing exams and can demonstrate your knowledge. And I think I've gone off topic from what your actual question is.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

Well, but but I followed that thread pretty, I think, really well. I think you did a really nice job of of drawing that out in that distinction. Josh, Joshua, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Yeah, let me jump in. Um You know, it it's interesting. I was reflecting back on some of my students that I've really enjoyed working with, and and they're really all across the political spectrum, uh, all different kinds of ages. You know, some of my favorite students have been in their 50s, and and you know, it was a second or maybe even third career choice because those were the folks who knew what they wanted. You know, they were determined to get through the program, they were gonna get as much out of it as they possibly could, and they were gonna be successful when they graduated and be really good physicians and help people. That's what they had that that vision for, and they followed through with that, you know. Uh, I think if I had to say one commonality with naturopathic doctors, we really are a profession of individuals who like to chart our own course. Uh, you know, we talked earlier about uh, you know, like uh as a naturopathic doctor, I think you really uh I mean to get into this field in the first place have to recognize like, hey, the the the typical way of doing things isn't working on some level. We have to look for options, right? And as far as how we practice, there's folks that practiced, you know, very conventional primary care uh standards of care, perhaps. And there's other folks that uh will practice exclusively homeopathy, you know. So there's again a lot of diversity there. That's actually one thing I really love about our profession, because it allows then uh, you know, for folks to have a selection of different doctors that might work with them in one way that that works really well and and another that, you know, isn't isn't the night the right fit so you move on, right? Um I think that I I personally love to see our medicine more in the Midwest and the South because I think there's a need there. Uh, you know, I've just been reading a lot of articles, especially about the lack of primary care doctors and family physicians, especially in those parts of the country. Uh, and as I said earlier, I really do feel naturopathic medicine is an excellent form of primary care medicine.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Amen to that. Amen to both of your comments. Those are really terrific. And we'll we'll definitely have you back in the not too distant future uh to talk more in depth about um, you know, the various uh opportunities, miss, etc., as as the impacts the field. Dr. Bring Goober, I'd like to also have you just speak very briefly on the interface with the chiropractic program. For those in our audience who are listening, and many of you know we have the second oldest chiropractic program in the country, and actually Western states had um the one of the first, if not the first, and Marcia, you could correct me on this, but for uh at least several decades in the uh mid to or early to mid-1900s, we had the College of Chiropractic and Drugless Physicians. Um, and that eventually uh spun off and the colleges went different ways. Um and ultimately uh as we look at the interface now, we're bringing naturopathic medicine home to University of Western States again. Um, and as uh our uh Pied Piper, if you will, for the program and for all the things that you do to build it up, that you've also uh, I feel uh you've you've really cultivated a positive working relationship with our chiropractic colleagues. So long question T up. Sorry about that. Is the how do those two interface? And do you see the programs kind of having some opportunity like dual programming options or concurrent programming down the road? Or is this suitable for someone who's been a DC who may want to come back? And do they have to take the whole program in its entirety? Can they transfer in credits? Just some real brief uh tidbits on that would be helpful for our audience.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Sure. Um, we the students actually start out together in class. So they're taking anatomy, um, lots of microbiology, immunology, several courses, basic science courses, and they take it with the chiropractic students. We've done some exploration, but finding that as we're in the clinic, it's uh that collaboration, that integration is have happening without even working at it. It's just a natural uh integration. We have some students who have been uh enrolled in the chiropractic program and then graduate, but they're simultaneously enrolled in the naturopathic program as well. I've had uh another student who graduated and then started in the naturopathic program right after graduation. So it's a blend. We always look at what they've done, what what kind of work they've been doing. Um, if they've graduated, you know, in the last two years, 10 years, 20 years, we find a way to make it work for them. There are students who do it simultaneously. Obviously, it takes them a little longer than it does just to finish one program or the other. Um, and we can arrange um special schedules. I spend a lot of time creating special schedules for those who graduate in other fields such as chiropractic to maximize their time on campus and get them what they need. Obviously, there are courses that they um we delve into in a different at a different level. You know, our uh cardiovascular health course takes a slightly deeper level than what you would in a chiropractic program. But we also don't then we exchange that in terms of how much physical medicine we do. We're prepared to uh share information and share expertise and refer as needed. But it's a great opportunity because we see the students mixing and they're helping each other out. So, yes, somebody who's been out for 20 years can come back and we will help refresh them as to what school is like again.

SPEAKER_03 39:59

There you go. I love it. All right, well, as we wrap up today, um really appreciate both of you joining me and our community and audience uh across the country uh for this podcast. Just two very simple but very important questions. Sometimes the simple is the most important. In a few words, when you think about University of Western States, what comes to mind? And Joshua, you it you go first this time, please.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Excellent education, uh, great docs, and preparing you for the future.

SPEAKER_03 40:36

Bingo. Thank you, sir. Yeah, Marcia?

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yeah, for me, it's just that reinforcing that concept of evidence-based training. They really uh they have something they can sink their teeth into, and the concept of integration and uh working collaboratively with other practitioners. Um, it's just something that we need to be able to do forever into the future. And I think this provides an opportunity start on that process.

SPEAKER_03 41:05

Here, here. And UWS is that place to get that experience and education. So, one last question, and Joshua, we're gonna have you start, and Marcia, you'll get the last word on this one. Uh, what does whole person health mean to you? And just a few very short words.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Addressing those foundations of health that I alluded to earlier, things like diet, exercise, sleep, also really addressing the impact of one's emotional and mental state on your physical health and encouraging folks to have a really solid spiritual practice, whatever that may be for them.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Beautiful. Dr. Brenguber.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Uh, I would absolutely tap into what Joshua just said because all of those components change how your health is. And we don't tend to think about how I'm getting along with my family or neighbor or whoever as impacting my health until it's reached a ridiculous level. But it's impacting it as you go along every day. And I think we need to look at all of those pieces to truly talk about whole person health.

SPEAKER_03 42:19

Beautiful. Well, where can people find the you universe excuse me, let's back that up, Phil? All right. Well, thank you both. Where can people find the University of Western States Naturopathic Program online?

SPEAKER_00 42:36

You can find us at UWS.edu. Lots of information on that website.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

Beautiful. All right, and for both of you, where can people find you online?

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Um LinkedIn. Uh you could uh find me on the OAMP website as well, Oregon Association of Naturopathic Physicians. Um and there's always Google.

SPEAKER_03 43:03

Always Google. Yeah, very good. Dr. Rubenstein?

SPEAKER_01 43:06

You can always reach me through the UWS Connected Whole Health Clinic.

SPEAKER_03 43:11

All right. Well, very good. And uh it has been a pleasure to speak with you both. We're gonna have you back along with hopefully some of our students and soon-to-be alumni uh to talk about their journey and uh their journey with you. Uh, by the way, not to tease it too much, but uh they have a lot of fine words uh to express about their their experiences with the Naturopathic Medicine program here at UWS. And you don't need to take my word for it. You'll hear from them soon uh all about that. So many thanks both to Dr. Sprenguber and Rubenstein and to our audience. Thank you for spending time with us. I encourage you to keep exploring the vast world of health and wellness and all that it offers us to lead richer, healthy. And happier lives. As a reminder, find us online at www.s.edu. All right, and visit us on social media. I hope you'll continue to join me and our guests as we continue to explore the mind, body, and beyond. Take care and be well. Signing off for now.