Design, Motherhood and Creative Leadership with Rose Murray of These White Walls

In this episode of the OLISE Podcast, Bilen sits down with Rose Murray, founder of These White Walls, for a thoughtful and deeply personal conversation about creativity, identity, and the evolving role of the designer.

Rose’s path into interior design was anything but traditional. With a background in anthropology and early experience in editorial, she began her career working alongside Nigella Lawson before moving into festival spaces, scenography, and hospitality. This organic journey shaped her belief that space is never neutral, it is a powerful tool for storytelling, identity, and human connection.

Since founding These White Walls, Rose has built an award-winning studio known for its highly personalised, narrative-led approach across both hospitality and residential projects. Her work moves fluidly between public and private spaces, often blurring the line between the two.

In this conversation, Rose reflects on the importance of relationships in design, the role of emotional intelligence in working with clients, and why interiors are about far more than aesthetics. She shares how her studio has evolved, from early micromanagement to creating a collaborative environment where creativity can flourish.

Rose also speaks candidly about motherhood and leadership, and how becoming a mother has expanded her capacity, sharpened her vision, and reshaped her understanding of legacy. She challenges the lack of visibility for women in business during pregnancy and advocates for a more open, human conversation around creativity, leadership, and life.

The episode also explores the future of design, from the impact of AI and technology to the increasing importance of human connection, cultural awareness, and meaningful dialogue in shaping spaces.

This is a conversation about intuition, courage, and the belief that design is not just about what we see, but how we live, feel, and connect within a space.

In this episode

• Rose’s unconventional path from anthropology to interior design
 • Working with Nigella Lawson and early editorial influences
 • The connection between food, space, and experience
 • Founding These White Walls and the meaning behind the name
 • Creating a collaborative studio culture and evolving leadership
 • Designing across hospitality and residential spaces
 • Why relationships and emotional intelligence define great design
 • The reality of creating highly private, unseen projects
 • The impact of AI and the importance of human creativity
 • Motherhood, leadership, and expanding creative capacity
 • Representation, visibility, and women in business
 • Designing for legacy and the future of the studio

Headline Sponsor

This episode is supported by Moroso, the luxury Italian design house renowned for turning furniture into works of art. For over 70 years, Moroso has collaborated with leading designers to create bold, expressive pieces that define contemporary interiors.

https://www.moroso.it

Perfect for

Interior designers, architects, creative founders, and anyone interested in the emotional and human side of design, building a studio with purpose, and balancing creativity with leadership, identity, and life.

Listen and Watch

Full video available on YouTube
Audio available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all major platforms

Guest Links

Rose Murray

https://www.instagram.com/rose_murray/

These White Walls

https://www.thesewhitewalls.com/

Follow OLISE Magazine

Website: https://olisemagazine.com
Instagram: @olisemagazine
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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

How has motherhood and pregnancy made you feel?

SPEAKER_04 0:02

What a metamorphosis that women have. I wasn't really ready first time round for it. I was very reluctant because of my career. I had a great deal of freedom. I'd managed to build a studio where I got to travel and do amazing things. And I think there was a little bit of this sort of narrative around motherhood and business which wasn't helpful. You are quite literally building new life, and so you think a lot about the future. It really began to focus me on this idea of creating and building legacy spaces. And what was it that I was creating that I would leave behind? I wish I'd seen more pregnant women, you know, up on stages or on podcasts. I was really sort of seeking them out. I'm like, what happens to like the women who become pregnant? Yeah. Where do they disappear to? Business is very driven by the necessary things of like linearity, quantifiability. The experience of early motherhood does not fit at all. I think I grew up seeing my dad doing his job and kind of built that into the way that I work, like overworked, you know, like just delivered, over-delivered on time. And I think there's a balance to be had, and there's another part of the story that needs to be told. And I think for women who are passionate and creative and they're building something to see others doing that and have the space to welcome that in and happy in it rather than feeling that they have to apologize. Women are really ready for that discussion. And, you know, I think in this world, that kind of sort of feminine intelligence that runs through things that is especially creative and quite non-linear and doesn't conform to the frameworks. And I think women are so good at gathering together, you know, forming bonds and forming relationships and speaking in groups and are in being empowered at this point in time. So, you know, what we say matters and our input matters in terms of the conversations that we're having.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

That's vital. It is. At O'Leads, we're proud to partner with brands that don't just talk about change, but they're actually shaping it. Today's episode is sponsored by Moroso, the luxury Italian design house that turns pieces of furniture into art. For the last 70 years, they've been working with the most influential designers around the globe, creating bold, expressive pieces that not only fill a room but define it. Thank you, Moroso, for supporting Olise.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Welcome to the next episode of the Olise Podcast. Today I am joined by somebody that we really, really respect and love so much at Oise Magazine. She is super mama, super, super boss babe. And whenever we see her out in industry events, she is a ray of sunshine. And she's usually in the colour mustard or yellow because that is her colour. Rose Murray, thank you so much for joining me today. Oh, it's a pleasure to be a pleasure to see you. It's always a joy. Um Rose, we're gonna have an amazing conversation today, and we're gonna talk all about you. Oh wow! And your studio and life and lots of good things. Oh, great. So, Rose, tell me about yourself.

SPEAKER_04 3:08

Well, gosh, and and yeah, how how it all came to be. I mean, I'm I'm honestly, I took a bit of a rogue path. You know, I'm I I didn't study design, uh, so I'm sort of a school of life kind of girl. Um, I my background's in anthropology. I did a B BSE in anthropology at UCL. Um, and I think within that I really, really fell in love with this idea of space never being neutral. You know, it's spaces somewhere where we kind of build identities and we navigate navigate social relationships and we use objects to to do that. And that that was very inspiring in terms of what I was interested to explore as well as landscape and architecture. And I thought when I came out of that, I really didn't know what I was going to do. Um, but I was very interested in editorial. So I remember I just applied and I did a three-week stint at Vogue because I loved the magazine and I always loved magazines and aesthetics. And uh I did that, and right at the end, the editor at large was like, So what are you doing next? And I was like, absolutely nothing. She said, Well, okay, I'm I'm starting a cookery book. Come along, you can just assist me for like two weeks, and then we'll figure things out. And that two weeks became four years. I it was actually Nigella Lawson. I ended up working with her. Hold on a minute, hold on a minute, the domestic goddess, yeah, and the one and only who I mean can you imagine how wonderful it was to work with her? Like, what an incredible matriarchal leader. She was just so wonderful, so loving, so creative, so talented, um, and you know, just fun, really, really fun. And I got to I started off obviously just doing the book, um, which turned into several books, but then she made television series and she styled adverts and you know, all of these things. So I got to work on magazine editorials and and you know, television programs. And for me, I just was having so much fun. And I didn't really think about a career path at all. And alongside that, I met uh a wonderful, crazy crew of people who were building festivals, and because of my love of food and working with chefs, I ended up doing a lot of pop-up spaces, um, you know, with like Mark Hicks, Otto Lengi, Peacham Nurseries, um, St. John, amazing chefs. And so there became this connection, I think, between chefs and spaces. And that just evolved over time. It was completely organic. Um that is the best way.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 5:43

You just I just followed what I the joy, you know. I followed the joy, I followed that sort of fire.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:48

Um, and it just inevitably led me in this path.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

So fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 5:52

So, yeah, you don't always have to go the traditional route.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

No, you don't. And you've absolutely proved that, Rose, and you do it so well. Uh, you know, from anthropology to interior design, but so many transferable skills, right? Yeah. I feel like you you really show that actually. When we'll talk more about your design studio, but what was it that sparked the thought of I'm gonna go into interior design?

SPEAKER_04 6:17

I think, I think after about a decade of I don't know, all sorts of art direction, sonography, I kind of realized that I didn't quite know what I was or how to define myself. And I had spent so long working in kind of ephemeral spaces, you know, creating and building spaces that that were only as long as a TV show was there or the event took place. And some part of me shifted, I think, as I sort of turned 30. I was uh recognizing a desire to kind of build for more longevity. And, you know, I was in a sort of fork where I was either going to go into film or interiors, and I decided to switch to interiors because I love this idea of like building something that that might last a bit longer. And so I, you know, because I had this connection with chefs who were building the pop-ups, and then I started to meet architects who wanted, you know, more of an interior aspect to it, and the opportunities started to unfold. And I came into studios and did a lot of kind of creative direction and pitching, and got to the point where I was essentially unemployable because I had never really taken a job. I'd just come in and um created. Um, and I built something in myself that I re recognized needed a space to express itself, you know, like for my identity to come through that. And then in that work, I would in turn be building a space where other people could find their own identities. So uh as soon as I met the right client, I realized this was it. I'm just gonna start the studio and see how it goes. It was a good one.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

And let's talk about let's talk about this award-winning studio. So, Rose, your studio is called These White Walls. Yes. What inspired you to create that name? A name, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

I love that question actually, because people resonate with the name, but I'm not often asked what it what it was. Uh I think I I really didn't want the studio to be named after my name. I wanted it to be more around an ethos and a kind of value. And I was looking around for a name, and I remember talking to my friend in the park, and it these white walls came from me misremembering a favorite line of one of my favourite poems by an Irish poet, Brendan Kennelly. And he talks about space as a room being more than a room. A room is about how we inhabit it, it's about the memories that we create, and it's about the the unseen, like emotional layer of inhabiting a space, and it really resonated. And the actual line was this white door will always open on what we have seen, what we have touched. But I I misquoted it and I was like, it's something like these white walls. And then as soon as it came out of my mouth, I I loved it. I loved it in it was so visual, and it really felt like um a blank page or a blank canvas, which really resonated with how I wanted to create because I wasn't interested in a template or reproducing something. I wanted to reimagine what was possible, and I knew that I wanted to create something very bespoke and that was quite brave and courageous, and that you would just find out in the process. So, for all of these reasons, that kind of blank canvas creativity um I think really shone out with that as an imagery.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Absolutely. So that's I we we agree, and as the audience, and I remember when um our founder Annie mentioned you for the first time, and she said, you know, this is Rosemary, she's the founder of These White Walls, this incredible studio. And I remember these hearing these white walls really resonated with me. And I, you know, I I it could just be me, but these white walls, it was for me, I did connect it with interior design. Okay, you do you do connect it actually, but it it leaves a lot to the imagination, and that's what I love about that name. Yeah, it's very memorable, it's unique, yeah. And I love that although you've you've built a real presence as the founder, but it has its own identity, yeah, which is which is not easy to do, actually. Yeah, wonderful.

SPEAKER_04 10:18

Yeah, I think I think that's it. It's sort of it's opening the space for potential and that it's collaborative, and it's almost like creating material portraits of people. Yes. You know, there are many, many incredible interior designers, but it's it's almost like having an artist doing a portrait of you, depends who you choose. You'll come out with something different, and they're all unique to you, definitely, and so I think it's creating that resonance.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah, definitely. I I couldn't agree more. Rose, you have a fantastic team behind you. Um, and when you created, when you started these white walls as a studio, what was the type of environment that you wanted to create? We because you've got a really strong brand identity and you you you you are delivering amazing projects, which we'll talk about at some at some point in this conversation. But in terms of environment you wanted to create within your team, what would that have what does that look like?

SPEAKER_04 11:11

Yeah, I I think I basically wanted to create something, an environment where people are able to flourish with their own creative drive. And it would be a space that I would steward. And that I think people are drawn to different studios because there's something they see that resonates with something in them. And so I think you do attract just attract people. And it's amazing, you know, how I've had people contact me from Australia via Instagram and just say, I'm moving to the UK, you need a designer. You know, they've they've seen something that resonates. And so I think it's a space that I want that offers, you know, education and workshopping. It's not a dictatorial space at all. And I think that that environment has evolved over time. And definitely the way that I lead it now, it differs to when I first began. I when I first began, I was a maniac, you know. I kind of, as you do, I think, when you were an initial founder, I micromanaged everything. You know, it was very difficult to let go. And then slowly over time, uh, I have trusted that, and I really want to create a space where people can feel free to express themselves. And there's a cohesiveness that comes with an understanding of the values and the standards that we offer. But everything is this beautiful melting pot of individual ideas that we then evolve into something.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

So I yeah, I completely understand. And you go on a journey, don't you, as a founder?

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Yeah. Oh my gosh. From like Sage One where you're building brick by brick, everything.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Everything, you've got your eyes on everything. You you you know, it's not just you, Rose. It's it's most it's 99% of founders. And then you evolve as a leader, you evolve as a founder. Because it's one thing being a founder of your own business, and it's uh one thing being a leader in an in a business. Yes, right. And you know, the stakes are high when it's your when you're the founder. It's it's your life, your soul, everything is involved in it. Yeah, and so I'm I really can I yeah, I I don't blame you, but I I definitely get a really zen feeling when we see your team and you know, and and in terms of your leadership style, it's it's it's great to witness. Yeah. Um, so Rose, in terms of you, you've done exceptionally well with doing hospitality projects and residential. Yeah. And often in our industry, you know, there's there's a there's a it's not always that some some studios blur the lines, right? We do we have high-end residential and high-end hospitality and F and B and but you've done a mix, you've got a real mix in your portfolio, which is fantastic. Let's talk about that. Sure. How which one did you start with first? Was it residential or hospitality?

SPEAKER_04 13:54

It was hospitality. I think that was very much coming from my background, you know, working with with chefs. Um, and so that was inevitable. And I I just I love creating spaces that are kind of theatres for which essentially what restaurants and hotels are. I mean, they are you know min the mini sort of ecosystems when so much is happening behind the scenes. So I love that. I love the back of house and I love the front of house. And so I think that really, really appealed. And, you know, our first project was Hyde, which was an incredible project to have. Um, I loved the owners, and you know, Evgeny was deeply inspiring himself. So it I think the the reason it really made sense, and it there was a shift, because the shift did occur to more than residential primarily in in the um pandemic, um, because of, you know, unfortunately, hospitality collapsed, although we were doing the Ledbury actually behind closed doors. So it still happened. But what I think it's my personalized approach that led us into residential quite naturally, because even though they're hospitality spaces, whether you're working with a brand or you know, a particular owner, it's still about this essence of um there being a kind of a host and a guest that you want to kind of bring into the space. And so they are still very, very personalized. I mean, working with Brett, uh, he he was operating in a space that didn't really reflect the man he he is, and he's an incredible person. Um, and he is really somebody who stewards land and he has herds of animals and he forages, and it was the space he had did not reflect that at all. So we brought something very unconventional, very wild, very organic into a space that also needed to be very performative. Um, and you know, I worked with him at a really individual level, and I I also work very closely with the owners. So I think something about those spaces, clients who want a residential space, they really they sense that personal touch and the personalization of that space, and that's that's what really appeals. And I I genuinely enjoy both. And it's been interesting in recent years because we've gone very private, you know, a lot of the spaces we can't even photograph. And that's really fascinating because you're actually designing a space that is never going to be seen publicly, and you know, in a world where so much is designed for that Instagram Square, it's quite interesting to be creating spaces that you you know it's it's kind of feels very much like a gift between you and the client, and you know that very few people will ever see them, and you know, and so much work goes into them, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Um I mean that speaks for itself. I mean, I've visited Hyde many times, and every time I go in there I think of you. And you know, if you haven't, if you haven't been to the Hyde, anyone that's watching, please visit in Mayfair. It is absolutely incredible. The staircase is a showstopper. The the materiality also that was used in that project, I mean, it's fee it the it taps into all the senses. Yes. It's it's a real special experience, actually. It's not just a restaurant, it's an experience. And from a design point of view, from a food and for food and beverage point of view, it's incredible. And you touched on the client journey that you have, which is really interesting. So I love that you have quite, you know, that personal touch where that client journey is not that different actually for you in terms of when you're working closely with the founder of the fat of the restaurant or you're working closely with a team that are putting this together. Um, you know, and I love that actually there is a thin line actually where you your client journey is quite similar in that sense, which is a real, it's a real win.

SPEAKER_04 17:45

Yeah, I think I think what's really important is that business is actually very much about relationships, it's about people. Even though you're doing interior design, that's the actual aesthetics of it and the materials and and that kind of technical design element is actually only a fraction of the experience that you have. You are really, really working with people.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:08

And I think it you you need to be able to handle that. You need to have emotional intelligence when you walk into that room. You they need to know that they can rely on you. And it's a long journey. Um, and you know, years. A lot of the projects are working on last years to build because you're doing ground up stuff. So I think, yeah, I think at the end of the day, it's really important for people to be able to just sit and have a tricky conversation or ask you, what do I do in this situation?

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 18:36

Because they're working with very, very complex sites, or you know, they're spending millions or tens of millions of pounds. And so the aesthetics is one part of it, but it's actually, I think, what clients are investing in is perspective and personality.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Absolutely. And this is where I will revert back to your anthropology, your editorial experience, your ability to connect with people, you know, this is where your rote, like your root into design really, the magic, it comes alive in this pro in that that process when you're with the client, you're you're you're pitching, you're, you know, there's a confidence there. And I and I I think, you know, there's there's loads of talk about the traditional way of going into interior design and then the kind of experience-led, you know, have transitioned in from pivoted. And I'm up for both. Yeah, I I went down the traditional route, yeah, but actually I have, and I I remember when we first, I first you were my actual first interview for O'Lease Magazine. I remember that. When we first started, and and and you know, I remember having this conversation with you and we we put it into print, and now we're physically having this conversation, which is fantastic. But I remember talking to you about that and your route into design and how massively it impacts you know the studio now. You're you're leading with a vision, you are you know how to communicate well. Sure. And like you said, having the aesthetic and designing the aesthetic is one thing in design. But if you don't know how to pitch it and deliver it and make the client fall in love with it, that's a whole nother skill set, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 20:16

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And I think maybe it was just I had to have my own studio. Um, because actually, um, I really enjoy and I've done every single job in the studio, and to have that foundation just makes your life easier because I had to self-study like a maniac. So it's really helpful to ground yourself in that knowledge and then to simply go into the world um and practice it for real, because there are so many things that you can't learn in school, as you know with your experience. And so, so yeah, I think it's just inevitable. And I think there's something as well, uh, something slightly maniacal about being uh, you know, entrepreneur and doing your own thing, is you have to be a little bit crazy. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Because it's it's a relentless thing to do. Yeah and you have to hold a lot. You know, you hold you hold the clients, you hold a lot of legal and financial responsibility, you hold the team who are very you know diverse and require a lot. So, you know, you you actually need to have a great capacity for many different faculties. Uh and but I think yeah, I think that's the the relationships and the drive and what you really want to create. That's what you're that's that's ultimately what my job is. Love it. You know, the vision and bringing that together and let people with you know insane amounts of talent come. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yes, totally. Rose, you are more than a designer, you are somebody that has a natural ability to spark conversation. You go on many panels as a speak, you're also a speaker of design, and you know, we love that. We absolutely love that, Elise. And you moderate conversations, you know. You drive, you know, conversation in a way that is really special. Oh, and let's talk about that. Let's talk about what it looks like to be an interior designer in 2026 right now in terms of personal branding. Yeah. Because you do that really well. And you know, you you've built an incredible studio, but you're also a design expert and you talk to that as well. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. I can talk for hours at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 22:29

Yeah, sure. I mean, it's, I think our industry, and in fact, every industry, is kind of being turned over now with technology in a way that, you know, it wasn't when we we all kind of began. And I think this facilitates us in so many ways. It's fantastic as a tool, or you know, AI, for example, fantastic as a tool. However, I think what it has, what I hope that it's continuing to do is people recognizing the value of face-to-face interaction and challenging that status and saying, you know, is this tool superseding? I mean, creativity at human level is so powerful and so important. And so to outsource that entirely, I feel like we're kind of losing out here because it's a gift to create and it's an offering to others. And when I speak with other designers, I mean they really they care so deeply about what they're creating. And I think it's helping us to reflect on what exactly we want to be generating in our society, in terms of the spaces that we're creating, the questions we want to ask, um, what this kind of materiality is doing in the world. And I'm just really drawn to those bigger questions, which I think the people who you know I get to interview, which is so much fun, are also craving those conversations. Um, and they're big dreamers.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

And I think it's more than just a kind of quick fire aesthetic that you can kind of polish off and deliver because the whole process of design really involves a hand-to-hand um, you know, walking with that client through a project from beginning to end. And what you really want is the dreamer of the dream to be walking with you if you're gonna get through this. And and so I think founders are really beginning to sort of come out from behind the computer screens so that people know who's there and who's gonna be there for them and who's gonna get them through that difficult time, you know, when, like I say, millions or tens of millions of being spent and and then to get that personal touch as well, because ultimately people really want to personalize their space and they want to create a space that um invites in others but will also last beyond them. And I think, yeah, I I think having conversations about that is so important now.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Absolutely. I it's it's wonderful that you actively in the industry um are, and again, I'm gonna revert to that anthropology. I that and I I feel like that is there's so much to be said because your roots and your foundation started a certain way, but your love of conversation and speaking about subject matter and what the status quo is right now, and there's so many things happening in the world right now. Yes, and you know, whether we can still whether we like it or not, we we can't just stay in our interior design bubble. You know, we're we're as an industry, we're impacted a lot by what's going on in the world from a from a client point of view, yeah. You know, so so Rose, let's talk about motherhood because let's talk about motherhood.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Let's talk so Rose, you are on baby number two about to drop. Um quite literally. Quite literally. I mean, you know, we can all go hang on if you don't get me with me if in case. Um so it's I'm sure shaped you a lot.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

And you, I mean, we see you around and we it it just hasn't stopped you. I feel like it has fueled you, empowered you even more. Let's talk about that. How has how has motherhood and pregnancy made you made you feel?

SPEAKER_04 26:23

Oh my goodness. I mean, it's what a metamorphosis that women have. Um you know, I I it was I I wasn't really ready first time round for it. Uh, you know, I I realized I wanted a family, and I you know I was very reluctant because of my career. I had a great deal of freedom. I'd managed to build a studio where I got to travel and do amazing things. And and I think there was a little bit of this sort of uh a narrative around motherhood and business which wasn't helpful, um, that women just kind of have to get through it and manage. Um and it actually, I think what sort of pregnancy and motherhood brought to me was a great deal of clarity about what I was here to do and asked deeper questions. And, you know, you are quite literally building new life. And so you think a lot about the future and what you're you yourself are bringing into this world in terms of a person, yeah, and then also in terms of like what you are creating. And so I think it expanded not expanded me physically, but it increased my capacity to hold a lot. And I my timeline hugely increased, and it really began to focus me on this idea of creating and building legacy spaces, and what was it that I was creating that I would leave behind? And a lot of these questions came up, and I found it very clarifying and very invigorating. It fueled me more than it did stop me from, you know, running my business. And I think at the time I wish I'd seen more pregnant women, you know, up on stages or on podcasts. I was really sort of seeking them out. I'm like, what happens to like the women who become pregnant? Yeah. Where do they disappear to? You're right. You're right. And I think it's so important that we see more um more amazing women doing their thing.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

I mean, even this um, you know, conversation, yeah. You were so like delighted and and wanted to support us to have this conversation so heavily pregnant. And I mean, that's just classic roads. Like we we, you know, it it we're so happy to have you here. And I love that you want to bring visibility to pregnant, like you're right. Where do you it's almost like I feel like women are like tucked away a little bit when we're at a stage where we're heavily pregnant, yeah, it's like, oh but I can't do that because you know I'm heavily pregnant. Yeah, but actually, you're like breaking down all those barriers in such a special way for people moving forward, like it's great.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

I just I mean, because you know, you're a mum, like Annie's a mum, yeah, and you know, women are holding a lot. And I I did a uh I led a panel not too long ago, and obviously clearly pregnant. Clearly pregnant, yes. Um, it was wonderful, got great feedback about the conversation. But what was wonderful after was lots of women coming up to me and going, oh my gosh, it's so nice to see a pregnant woman doing her thing. And then they would tell you their stories of you know how they were like pumping in closets and you know, just sort of kind of pretending that that it wasn't happening. And I think, you know, we do live in a world like business is very driven by the necessary things of like linearity, quantifiability, you know, like that that the experience of early motherhood does not fit at all. And I think I grew up seeing my dad doing his job and kind of built that into the way that I work, like overworked, you know, like just delivered, over-delivered on time. And I think there's a balance to be had, and there's another part of the story that needs to be told. And and I think for women to to who are passionate and creative and they're building something, to you know, see others doing that and have the space to welcome that in and happy in it rather than feeling that they have to apologize or you know that that it's not gonna fit. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

I mean, representation matters, right? And in every form, you know, diversity is is is in everything. It's it's also in this case where you know you see a woman who is heavily pregnant, who is working and building her business and is not is unstoppable. It's in it's so empowering actually to see. And you know, this level of representation, you having you here, even people seeing you on panels, I mean, it's powerful. It's really, really powerful.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Well, I hope so, but I do, I think it was what I was searching for. Yeah, and I think um, and I think women are really ready for that discussion. And um, you know, I think in this world, that kind of sort of feminine intelligence that runs through things that is specially creative and quite nonlinear and doesn't conform to the frameworks that are currently here, and we have to sort of discuss how we're going to reconfigure them ourselves. And I think women are so good at gathering together and you know, forming bonds and forming relationships and speaking in groups and are in being empowered at this point in time. So, you know, what we say matters and our input matters, and it's and it's definitely not a kind of us versus them gender conversation around that. You know, we're all here to to build these futures together, but we but women, mothers, they all need a voice, absolutely, and in particular in how we shape the physical environment is an aspect of it. But but in terms of the conversations that we're happy we're having, you know, it's just it's that's vital.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

It is, I think it is. Rose, a question about when you look at what you've built with these white walls, when you walk into a finished project, yeah, and it's handover day, and you know, your client may be maybe there and you're handing over and you're doing your tour. Um, how do you feel in that moment when you've completely when everything's done and you're in that moment where everything's styled? Oh my gosh. How does it feel?

SPEAKER_04 32:18

I mean, I think it's magical, it really is, because the the creative process is very quickly you're able to generate an image in your mind. And then there's this very long drawn-out process where you have to deconstruct it so that somebody else can rebuild it into reality. Um, and so you're holding on for a long time. You're like holding that vision for a very long time, but to see it actually materialize in front of you is such a joyous feeling because it proves to you that whatever you imagine can be made. And you don't have to replicate. You can you can literally reimagine something and find a way to make it possible. And I think that's a really important lesson like at a personal level, you know, like we have to have faith in what we can't see yet. And you the only way you're gonna create it is just by having an absolute vision and a drive to make that happen. And it's really quite incredible because all along your client is probably putting quite a lot of faith in you. And yeah, a lot of people are taking, you know, advice from you and driving it forward and hoping that it's gonna deliver. So when it does, and a lot of the time we're creating special installations and things like that, which don't really get to be showcased until you plug it in.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:40

And that feeling of having built something that you once imagined that didn't exist before is is just yeah, it's very powerful. It's addictive. It's addictive. It's addictive.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

It's addictive.

SPEAKER_04 33:51

It's addictive, and that's why we keep going. And I I often don't dwell enough, I think, on on you know, the achievement of that.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Because that's what we're here for. We're gonna keep Rose was an icon for in our in our edition at the end of the year, and this is the reason why. You know, I think from a motherhood point of view, from what you've built, you know, to your journey in design, it's iconic. And and often you I know as the founder you won't always reflect on what you've done. Um, but you should. 100%. Maybe when baby baby comes, you can sit back and you know think about it. But I do want to talk to you about Rose, you've done you and your studio have done an incredible job of branching out into the Middle East and having projects in the Middle East, and that is fantastic because you know it's a global thing. And you mentioned somebody from Australia, people reach out to you. There's a real global These White Walls is a global studio, and it's fantastic to see in it. The way that it's the trajectory is amazing. Um let's talk about that because for a studio that could be based in Europe who are keen to kind of work in different uh continents, different markets, what would your best advice be?

SPEAKER_04 35:08

Well, I think first of all, you you want to be that person who's open to that kind of dialogue. I think that's what excites me most is when you it's almost a cross-cultural collaboration. And the Middle East, for example, I was very excited to be invited out there. I remember thinking, gosh, my aesthetic perhaps doesn't quite ring true to what it was at the time, you know, like which is very bling. And there was a sort of softness and an unconventional beauty, I think, to our environments that I was questioning. But it, you know, it resonated with the client. And I think what's fantastic out there is it taught me a great deal about sort of both spectacle and symbolism, you know, and there's a there's an incredible enthusiasm for innovation and for new ideas. And so it really is an incredible place to to design and to drive things forward. And I think you so I think you just need to be very open. And again, to speaking to the interpersonal people who uh operate from different countries have very different ways of achieving things, and I think you cannot be stuck in your ways. Um, they they really don't deliver in the same way as in the UK. And so I think you need to be highly adaptable. I think you need to have um an awareness that that sort of the cultural differentiation, and you have to be flexible and learn to work with the locality and just the way different ways of operating in order to thrive. So, but again, just you know, work on being a relationship builder. Um, and really for me, it was just wonderful to work with different materials and to explore you know different design tropes and and then play with that, yeah. So that ultimately you created this, you know, collaborative results that was quite unique. And I remember the first time like doing a marg list, I didn't really even fully understand what that was. I was like, oh no, this is familiar. And it's it's actually the the margis is cultural, you know, it's it's intangible cultural heritage, so there was a lot of ritual involved in it. And for me, I learned so much about what this space means in terms of gathering and conversation, and there were so many things to play with which I wouldn't have encountered elsewhere. So I think I think for us all to continue the conversation in at a time where borders are closing up, people are indeed closing in. I I think that's it you can really make terrible assumptions.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 37:42

And I think we, you know, creativity and design, it's a really wonderful way to connect with people and to keep those channels open.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

I think that cultural awareness and you know, in the case where you're talking about the majdis, a lot, a lot of people don't know what that is. And you know that but but one thing you were was open to learn and to adapt. Yeah, and I think that's huge. That's a big, that's a massive uh piece of advice, you know, adaptable, culturally aware, but even if you're not the most culturally aware, you can learn as long as you're open through dialogue, right? Which you do so well. So, Rose, let's talk about the future of these white wolves and where you see yourself in a few years' time and also from a studio point of view, you know, where do you want to take this studio?

SPEAKER_04 38:29

Oh my goodness. So many places. I mean, there's still there's still so much to be done. I love the balance of hospitality and residential, and I think we're opening we're opening that up from having gone to a very private place to to getting more of a balance. And there's I love also um the curation of objects. Yeah. And I think we've spent most of I mean I've literally spent the whole of of the career of the studio creating prototypes, which involves a huge amount of RD and and various things. So I feel like um actually creating capsule collections would be um the the natural next choice. And then I'm also very much seeing the the these white walls as a kind of built expression, like space is the medium of that. But my work is increasingly opening up at a higher level, where I'm talking a lot at a sort of strategy and identity level with people. Like, what are what is your intention here? And like talking to clients who are reinvesting in places that um that you know, they're heritage spaces or their spaces that are built for legacy, and I'm loving those conversations. So the identity work and the strategy work is something that I'm really evolving into myself. So I feel like these like walls is a spatial medium, and then there's a whole set of cultural relations that I'd really love to ignite. And it is around conversation and it is around um generating culture and how we're shifting. And I think that's gonna be part of my evolution, so we'll have to wait and see.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

We are so excited, and we we know that whatever you do, you are going to shine, and we're here to support you as always. But before we wrap up, I do want to ask you about like what shaped you and and challenging parts because interior design is amazing, it's beautiful, it's aesthetically pleasing. But you know, as a founder, from a founder's point of view, was there any like defining moments that really shaped even your next steps or you know, your direction?

SPEAKER_04 40:36

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can actually see the the evolution over like through these two-year cycles. I mean, like a little over two years after founding, we went into the pandemic, and then after we came out of that, you know, there's there's various things that I've experienced being in places where conflict erupted, or um, you know, you you're working through a political upheaval that leads to recession. Um but then there's motherhood, and I I pr I do think that motherhood shaped and shifted me in a really foundational way and um expanded what I knew was possible and my own capabilities in a way that was really powerful. And we talked about how you lead, and I I really shifted the way my leadership style to wanting to create a space where people would learn to be self-led. And I think just being close to like via osmosis with people who you respect, and that's what I how I learned, that showed me and that taught me something. And I think the role of the studio, it's very important. Increasingly, people are working remotely, and I think there's a really great place for that. But there's something that's drawing the team back to the studio, and we talked a lot about um what they found most rewarding from last year, and it was doing these workshops, and they just said independently, they all sort of said, we just like to sit together and listen to you and how you communicate, how you make decisions, why something is valuable. And that to us taught us so much more than the technical part. So I think me deciding that's how I want to lead moving forward, because we all we all need that at a time where I think it feels like humanity's in a really hard place.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 42:23

Um, we need to be able to connect together. Definitely. I think that's really shaped me.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Thank you so much for speaking with me today. Oh, my pleasure. It's been easy, easy, just an easy conversation to highlight about all the amazing things you're doing, your studio, these white walls. Um, and we look forward to seeing you continue to shine in this industry. Thank you. And yeah, keep going, mommy.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Thank you.