Friendship That Started in a Courtroom

In this episode, we dive into her career, how she and NiCole became friends (it's a story involving gum and a slap threat), and what life is like in retirement. 

Like all our episodes, this one goes in many directions and it's a really fun conversation. (There's even a story about murder for all you true crime fans).

Grab a coffee, pull up a chair, and get to know our friend Catherine with us.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

I'll take a few dollars. Nash has um a baseball game tonight. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe tomorrow.

SPEAKER_05 0:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 0:07

Right? Seven. It's a lake.

SPEAKER_05 0:09

Where is it?

SPEAKER_04 0:10

In Bonnewal.

SPEAKER_05 0:11

Maybe I'll come and watch him play.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 0:15

So I still haven't used my my what Cedar Park.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

It's the one like with the pee pond.

SPEAKER_04 0:22

I know she's annoyed that name. She probably had no, she probably had no cases there.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

The pond that everybody pees in.

SPEAKER_05 0:28

Oh, the pea gross. I assume that any swimming area that children are in is a pea pond. Yeah. Like um, like any um water park.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

I I I hate water parks. They're disgusting. They are really gross.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Just cesspools.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

They are so bad. And and it's like the energy inside of an indoor water park is well, and every child in there is screaming at the top of their lungs.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Yeah. The noise just resonates off of the wall. They're all miserable.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

It's awful.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

It's and everyone's they're all they're all contemplating leaving their kids there.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

Do you know it's more expensive to go to Wisconsin Dells than Vegas? I mean, it depends on your gambling addiction.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:17

And shows addiction. Like you and your shows.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

And you and your hookers.

SPEAKER_04 1:25

But her hookers are cheap. Yeah, I'm a cheap day. Look at how patriotic I look right now.

unknown 1:32

You're great.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Yeah. Look at you.

SPEAKER_05 1:34

We actually look at the blue. Yeah, you could have dressed nicer.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

I got my patriotic shirt on, too.

unknown 1:44

Bushlight.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Bushlight shirt. You don't even drink bushlight. Red, white, and bushlight. No, have it if I'll try it.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Red, white, and bushlight. Okay, let's get started. We already are behind time. Ready? Let's start. You are feeling close. Hi, everybody. My name is Nicole Fisher.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

I'm Keith.

SPEAKER_04 2:26

Fisher. And our wonderful guest today is Catherine White, as in the color white of the Koran. But also as in a person.

SPEAKER_05 2:38

I have never heard that said before.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

I don't know what else.

SPEAKER_05 2:43

Bibles are sometimes white as well. Bibles? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:46

Oh, you're going right into religion. Look at you. White Bible. That was a trick.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

What is okay? Explain the white Koran. Just that the pages are white.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

It's just crayon.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

There's white crayons.

SPEAKER_05 2:59

Oh, oh, you said crayon. I thought you said crayon, like the Muslim holy book. That's what I thought too. Oh no, I meant like I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:09

I knew.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

I knew she said she meant crayon.

SPEAKER_04 3:11

I meant Crayola. I went to turban. You guys are the okay. I was like, why are we Bibles are too much? I'm like, why are you talking about a Bible? Like I'm talking about a Crayola. Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_05 3:23

It's crayon.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

White like a clout. Well, how about white like a person? Like Catherine White. I am Okay. This is this is starting off brutal. Brutal. Okay. How do we know Katherine? Well, thanks for asking. I never thought you would ask that. Nobody asked. Oh, nobody asked.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Somebody did.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

I'm gonna give you a little um backstory of Catherine and I.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Let's let's wait. Let's give a little front story.

unknown 3:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

And then a backstory. Okay. The front story is she's the uh one of our godparents to all of our children. Yep. So that's all five.

SPEAKER_05 4:03

She's all nice children.

SPEAKER_04 4:05

She does like our kids, so that's how both.

SPEAKER_05 4:07

I like them a lot. I love them, as a matter of fact. They're great kids.

SPEAKER_04 4:11

And she doesn't like just any kid.

SPEAKER_05 4:13

No, I don't like it. She doesn't like most of my kids. Yeah. Is he lying? That's true. I like a lot more people now than I did back when I was an attorney. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:26

Yeah, but you saw the worst of the worst.

SPEAKER_05 4:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:29

You never had a case of a really good day that people had.

SPEAKER_05 4:33

No, I my cases involve bad days for people. Yeah. So you're a pretty positive one.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Some of their worst days. Yeah. Probably.

SPEAKER_05 4:41

Probably.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

And you chose to do that.

SPEAKER_05 4:45

I did. It it was interesting. I I liked my job, but there was a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

She was a side note, she was very good at her job.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

So, Catherine, you're an attorney. You're a the assistant to the district attorney.

SPEAKER_05 5:00

What does that mean to somebody that has never been to court? I'm the prosecutor that handled the cases in court. I work for the state of Wisconsin. Um and it's a career position. The district attorney is an elected position. So you could have possibly several district attorneys during your career. Um and generally the the district attorney, you know, has administrative duties, and we don't we go to court, we prosecute offenders.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

And what cases did you usually handle? What was your like specialty or the cases they would give you more of? I know you got everything. I know you got everything.

SPEAKER_05 5:44

It's a small office. When I started there, um there was only the district attorney and my myself. So there was a lot of people. Who did you start attorney? Gary Robert Bruno.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Okay. And what year was that?

SPEAKER_05 5:56

1989. Holy. And um, and he was there half the time I was there, and then um Greg Parker, after Gary retired, Greg Parker was elected just attorney, and then he was there for the remainder of the time that I was there. Okay. So, you know, they're responsible only to the voters of the jurisdiction.

SPEAKER_04 6:21

And you guys cover Menominee and Shano County?

SPEAKER_05 6:24

Yes, but there's not a lot of work out of Menominee County because we only prosecuted cases involving um defendants who were not Native American. So there's not tons and tons of those up on the res. Or and it the victim had to be non-Native American as well. Um, although we did prosecute like domestic abuse, disorderly conducts up there with Native American victims because it was a kind of a jurisdictional void where um you didn't want them to slip through the cracks. There wouldn't be any penalty if somebody who was non-native beat up a Native American victim on the reservation. Um so we did that and it was never really litigated, so you know it worked out. At least there was some penalty for that happening.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

So the so the backstory of how we know Katherine is oh okay, so Catherine who was that little guy that he was a he was a defense attorney, and he would go like this, and like he was a short man, and you guys actually got along.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

You actually liked him, and I hated him, but then I found out it's all a game. Ron Hakey? Yes, yeah, he's a nice guy. You got it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Okay, just off that one little clue.

SPEAKER_04 8:00

Yeah, but like I I remember telling uh Keith sorley how much I hated him. He's like, he's doing his job, yeah. And I'm like, what? He's like, because he was like, and I I was I did a terrible job because that was my first time I had to testify. And I he's like, explain to me because I and I used a sling, which I shouldn't have done. And you were probably this is probably when I had gum in my mouth. But like I said, I bought a nugget of whatever, I bought a nugget. I think I said a nugget. He's like, What's a nugget? I'm like, well, marijuana. He's like, Can you explain that to me? Like, what does it look like? I'm like, like a nugget, and then he's like, What does a nugget look like? Like a chicken nugget, like you know what I mean? He was just being a complete douchebag. And I'm like, I don't know. And so I'm not a good test, I'm like part-time undercover drug cop at this time. Not a whole lot of experience, not a ton of in in drug cases, too, of all things. Like, I didn't have much preparation.

SPEAKER_05 8:51

So I'm like before you were a full-time officer, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:54

And so then I was like, and then he, I'm like, I don't know, it looks like a pine cone. Like, because I was thinking of what it looked like. He's like, a pine cone. I'm like, like an unripe pine cone that's still on a tree.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

It's not a bad that's actually pretty accurate.

SPEAKER_04 9:10

Thank you. But then, like, so then I see Keith.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

How much this is locked in your memory.

SPEAKER_04 9:14

Because I was humil, I was just humiliated. And like uh Keith, sorley, and Wade and Rich were like down, just dying laughing. And then he's like, Oh, a pine cone, you know. So he just like went with it and was trying to humiliate. It didn't work.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Keep in mind, audience, this is many moons ago when marijuana was actually like illegal.

SPEAKER_04 9:38

And it was actually, yeah, it was actually as now yet in Wisconsin. But they was it was actually they would charge stuff and whatever. Long story short, um first time I met Catherine, she was the ADA. Actually, you know what? The first interaction we had, and I don't even know if we've ever talked about this. I had some um, I was accidentally dating a psychopath, and you know who it is, we won't mention who, and he was a nut job. And I was walking through the hallway in the district attorney's like hallway area, and you're like, hey, Nicole, and I'm like, Yeah, you're like, for what it's worth, a lot of men are assholes out there. It's just your job to try to figure out to find a good one, and he's a psycho. Like you called it out, and I'm like, and that was like the first interaction. I'm like, oh, it got to Catherine. This guy is crazy.

SPEAKER_05 10:35

Most things got to me.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

Yeah, and so I'm like, oh, okay, thank you. And so then I remember telling, I remember telling the detective division, I'm like, Catherine said they're like, Oh, yeah, that makes sense. She's they didn't call you a man hater, but she has no bullshit for men in their bullshit. And I'm like, well, she basically said, We're gonna burn this house down at dawn. I did not say that. She didn't, but that's what I guess. I gave you the head now, like, yeah, we're you're in. And she's like, I'm in. And I'm like, we're in, we're gonna do this. No, but it was like a quick, and then after that, you know where where our relationship went.

SPEAKER_05 11:05

Yes. Well, when I first started in Shawnee, I was like the only woman in law enforcement there. There wasn't any, and it wasn't easy being the only law in law enforcement there, and so I have tried to take, or while I was working there, tried to take the females in the business a little under my wing, you did, and help them along because it isn't easy being the only woman in a male profession anywhere, right? Yeah, you did you did a really good job at that. I tried you were a girls' girl for sure. I I tried to help the help help the girls out. Um, some of them, you know, not so much, right? No, yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Some some need more help than what you can offer.

SPEAKER_05 11:57

Well, some yes, there wasn't anything that I was going to change about them, but um oh, I thought you were talking about Trixie.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

No, no, she actually liked me.

SPEAKER_05 12:06

I did, I liked you from the start.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

What's not to like?

SPEAKER_05 12:10

She's funny.

SPEAKER_04 12:11

Yeah, I'm really funny.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

I like funny people. Yeah, it's kind of a deal breaker for me.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

I did I did my job. You like that I did my job. You cared. You you gave a am I allowed to swear?

SPEAKER_05 12:23

Yeah, you gave a damn about things, and that in my opinion, Catherine.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

We don't bleep out dams in this household. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 12:39

Yeah, when she's testifying. Uh when I'm asking questions or responding to what people say. But anyway, that's how kind I've judged law enforcement officers. There's you know, the ones that really care and then the ones that really don't. I'd rather the ones that care.

SPEAKER_04 13:00

Because why else are you doing it?

SPEAKER_05 13:02

Yeah, you have to be doing it for a good reason and not just because it gives you some extra authority.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

And as an ADA, you see you probably even more than probably some supervisors. You could see the good and who really cares just based on report writing or how they care, or even come up to like because you said that you won't even meet some cops, you wouldn't even know them because they didn't even there were police.

SPEAKER_05 13:30

There was a police chief I never met, and he had been in Shawnee for I don't know how long. I had never met him, he didn't care enough to come and like meet you and be like, hey, the people who were prosecuting cases, yeah, that's kind of important.

SPEAKER_04 13:45

Yeah, okay. So one time I was testifying, and I was doing a damn good job.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

It wasn't a nugget day post-ripened pine cone. I'm gonna refer to that to all seeds of like, oh, it's an unripe flower.

SPEAKER_04 14:06

And um, I I was a smoker back in the day, as we've talked about in the beginning of our podcasts, not today, but like the beginning of time, we were smokers, and I tend like so. Obviously, as a smoker, you have like this. I chewed gum, okay, and I was on the stand, and I was not her her version is gonna be different than mine. Um, but I'm gonna get mine out first.

SPEAKER_05 14:31

And this was while you were working full-time as a police officer. You were in uniform.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

I was in uniform. I I had a uniform for the county too.

SPEAKER_05 14:41

Yeah, but I don't think you worked for court.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

I might have it was the hand-me-down from some guy that was three times your size.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

Yeah, actually, yes. Okay, so um, I go after, and what did you say to me? It wasn't nice, it wasn't nice. I was with Keith, I think it was with just Keith Sorley. It might have been with Pastor Sorley.

SPEAKER_05 15:04

It wasn't no, he wasn't a pastor then. No, um, I said, if you will ever get on the stand chewing gum again, I will come up and slap it out of your mouth.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

I'm like, okay. You're like, no, I'm I'm dead serious. I will slap you in front of everybody. I'm like, okay, I like her. I think we're gonna travel together. In fact, I think you're gonna be the godmother of my kids. It just makes you look dumb. Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_05 15:35

But I I mean You know, you your credibility is everything on the witness. You're right. No, you're not wrong at all.

SPEAKER_04 15:41

You're not wrong at all. Even in job interviews, like I tell our kids don't chew gum.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:46

And I inherited that from my mother. My mother hated gum chewing in public, absolutely hated it.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Oh, in public. Yeah, at all. At all.

SPEAKER_04 15:57

Nope, because it makes you look so when did you chew gum? Alone in a car when no one's around? Yes. Interesting. Not in front of my mother, that's for darn sure.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Did you feel kind of sinful when you did it? I remember going to one of my cousin's closet chewing.

SPEAKER_05 16:13

I went to one of my cousins' weddings and sitting next to my mother, and during the wedding ceremony, he was chewing gum, and I thought my mother was going to go up and slap the gum out of his mouth.

SPEAKER_04 16:25

God.

SPEAKER_05 16:26

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

So that's where she gets it from. Yes. That's where she gets it from.

SPEAKER_05 16:30

My mother was a very nice person generally, but she had standards, which is good.

SPEAKER_04 16:35

Yeah. Can we talk about we don't have to talk about it long, but just a little bit of a a murder side of your family? Can we talk about the murderer in your family or no? Yeah, we can talk about the murderer in my family.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

We don't have to talk about it long.

SPEAKER_04 16:56

But like, because that's something. You threw that out, I think, on a coffee date one day. You, me and Nicole Blaskowski. And she's like, and my aunt murdered someone.

SPEAKER_05 17:05

We went out for lunch in uh Ocano Falls. In Ocano Falls, you came too.

SPEAKER_04 17:11

Yep, that's where it was news to me. Yeah that she had so much depth and interest that I was like, I really do like her.

SPEAKER_05 17:19

Her aunt had a dog named Nikki. He had a dog named he became our dog when she got in trouble.

SPEAKER_04 17:25

So I'm Nikki to most family and friends. So that was a soft spot for me.

SPEAKER_05 17:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 17:31

Murderer's dog named Nikki.

SPEAKER_05 17:32

My Aunt Agnes, my father's sister.

SPEAKER_04 17:36

It's a real name in her family.

SPEAKER_05 17:38

Murdered. Yes, it is. Um, murdered her husband. And why? He asked her for a divorce. Oh. Um and that was that was the end of it for her.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

How did it how did it he was chewing gum?

SPEAKER_04 17:56

That would have been a better answer. How did that happen? Like how did she kill him? Well, was it a knife?

SPEAKER_05 18:02

I have to tell you, yeah, he she stabbed him to death. Oh I knew that. I didn't I didn't know that this happened when it happened. I was just a little kid. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:14

And um we got the call in the middle of the night. This is back, you know, in the olden days when you had a phone on the wall in the kitchen. And so the phone rang in in the middle of the night, so you know somebody's dead. Because no one calls you in the middle of the night unless somebody's dead. And that was a thing. It was my uncle Charlie got murdered, and um and it was weird because my parents sent us all to my aunt on the other side of the family, and we stayed with her for several days. And I have to tell you, in my childhood, probably there was only one other night where we did not sleep in the same house with my parents. Oh my gosh. We we always were with our parents, and um we went to funerals, we were well-behaved children because otherwise they'd you know take a stick to us. And um, you know, we were part of the family and we went to lots of family funerals. We did not go to my uncle Charlie's funeral, and I thought that was weird. I was probably only seven or eight at the time, but I thought it was strange. It was probably closed casket, I'm assuming. I have no idea because I wasn't there and my parents didn't tell us that this was how old were your siblings at the time? Then well, if I was seven, Mark was eight, Ken was nine, and Doug was ten. We're all a year apart. Okay, so um we came home, and shortly thereafter, they told us that Aunt Agnes was so sad about Uncle Charlie dying, they told us he had a heart attack. And that they she was gonna move in with us because she didn't want to be alone. So she got my bedroom, the murderer, yes, and I moved in to my brother's room, which was the entire second floor of the house. So it's a big room.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

So at this time, do they have any suspicions? No, nothing. No, she was like long. Well, what is I mean, I know this is a long time ago, but maybe this is gonna be a long time. What is what was her alibi? Yeah, like she had to have had one already at that time.

SPEAKER_05 20:38

Well, uh all of this is something I was not told about by my parents ever. Very shortly before my mother's death, she mentioned this, uh, but didn't really tell us a lot about it. And so since then, I got into genealogy and I looked it up. I got all of the newspaper. Um you need to write a book on this, Catherine. I guess and found out what exactly happened. And the funny thing is, it was a secret from pretty much everyone in the family, except for like the people who were closest. My cousin's children, so her my Aunt Agnes's children didn't tell their kids what happened. It's like a family secret.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

It was a family secret, and I would say do you think any of them are gonna watch us?

SPEAKER_05 21:36

I don't know. I'll have to I'm in contact with them now because they they got in contact with me to find out what was going on because their parents wouldn't tell them.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

Oh my god, what was going on.

SPEAKER_05 21:46

Really? This is a different podcast. So we got investigate what's investigated. All got together, went for a weekend over to lacrosse because it was kind of in the middle of where all of us lived, and I told them everything I knew. I Like this is recently? Yeah, a couple years ago.

SPEAKER_04 22:02

I remember this. Yeah. Like you were, we were friends when this happened. Not like smacking me in the face with gum brinks.

SPEAKER_05 22:08

I never have never struck you.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

No. It would have happened though.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Um, there, I mean, we would understand if you did. Do you okay?

SPEAKER_04 22:18

Speaking of such, I can't remember what was said, but one time you said, I don't, I don't side with men often, but if you were murdered, I would know that you had it coming if it was by Keith. You did say that publicly too, I think. It was like Keith would never do such a thing, but if he did, you had it coming and you deserved it. And I just know it without knowing anything, I would be like, I don't know, it's her fault.

SPEAKER_05 22:46

I know the two of you well enough to know it would that if Keith had been driven to that, that there was a good reason for it.

unknown 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:56

He's a good guy.

SPEAKER_04 22:57

He is a good guy. Yeah, I would definitely, it would be my doing a pinch.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:01

Um, so the family looked to you for answers about their own mother and father, yes.

SPEAKER_05 23:10

It was the children, she had two children, a boy and a girl. How old were they when this happened? My cousin, the female, was still living at home. She's that's how she got caught. Is she had stabbed him and then went into the bathroom and was washing off the knife. And my cousin came home and she saw her mother washing blood off the knife and heard like gasps coming from the bedroom, and went in and found her father bleeding in the bathroom.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

And this is the daughter.

SPEAKER_05 23:53

This is the daughter. She was probably 19 or 20 at the time.

SPEAKER_04 23:56

And the daughter didn't remember this.

SPEAKER_05 23:58

She didn't. Oh, I'm sure she remembered it. She testified to it at the trial. Um, but she I think that they were just trying to save us from yeah, you know, but she was significantly older than us. She, I mean, it wasn't like the cousins on my mother's side of the family that were all our age. I didn't really know her well because she was, you know, 19 or 20 and engaged to be married, and I was seven, you know. So it was her daughter and her brother's daughter that can't come to me.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05 24:36

Oh my god, to find out what happened. And you know, you get I got in all involved in this, and I'm like, what the hell are my parents thinking? Moving this woman who just stabbed somebody to death into our house. Oh, yeah, they knew she did it. Diane saw her. So, how did your Aunt Agnes live out the remaining years of her life? She had a trial, she was found guilty by reason of insanity.

SPEAKER_04 25:04

That's hard to do.

SPEAKER_05 25:08

And she ended up being put in Winnebago mental health. But you get if you're found in um not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect, you get you can ask for a hearing every six months to see if you've been cured and then get out because you're only uh institutionalized while you are still ill. And she I she was out within a year.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

How long after um the death was the trial? Do you do you know that?

SPEAKER_05 25:42

I could look at them the newspapers. It was, I mean, she was probably in our house for in the neighborhood of a year.

SPEAKER_04 25:49

That's a long time living with a murderer.

SPEAKER_05 25:52

She wasn't, I mean, she moved in short within days after the murder. And her dog. And her dog. What kind of dog? Uh miniature schnauzer and Nikki, who became our family dog because she never did take him back. Um well, we you know, all these kids fell in love with the dog.

SPEAKER_04 26:18

Maybe like lasagna. That cat's not going back with Sawyer, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:22

So um, where was I? Yeah, anyway. Um, how long was the trial after you said you could it was about a year later, and um Diane was was the star witness, of course.

SPEAKER_04 26:36

Against her mom, that'd have been tough, yeah. Um, and did you have contact with Diane?

SPEAKER_05 26:44

Very little, we never were close, right? There was a big age, there's a huge age difference. Um I've seen her. Do you know she's normal? Like as normal as you can be. I think so. I mean, I can't imagine how horrible that would have been. But yeah, she's the one that that uh had to testify. So that's that's my my aunt, the murderer.

SPEAKER_04 27:12

Okay, that was a longer story than but definitely worthwhile. Worthwhile.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

What made you want to become an attorney?

SPEAKER_05 27:22

Good question. I watched uh, you know, lawyer shows on TV when I was a kid.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

So did you always idolize the defense attorney or the prosecuting attorney?

SPEAKER_05 27:32

And then where did that where did I think that most shows were, you know, the main character was a defense attorney.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Um what's what show sticks out in your mind?

SPEAKER_05 27:41

I don't even remember the names of it. But I didn't want, you know, we weren't rich, we weren't poor, but we weren't, I mean, we were it was money was tight when I was a kid, and I want I didn't want to have money be tight all the time. You know, I didn't want to have to worry about money, and I thought the other thing is the game of life. Remember the game of life, you know, and you had the little car, and you and depending upon what you did for a living was how much money you got every time you passed the money piece. And I thought, you know, the doctors made the most. I thought, I don't know if I want to be a doctor and all that blood and guts and stuff. But the second most was the lawyer, and I thought that's what I'll do. I can talk. It's true, but so the game of life, the game of life means some television, yeah, it's and some television, yeah. And you and you went to UW Madison. I went to UW Madison undergrad, and I went to Drake University Law School after that. So it was a lot of uh education, but it was fun. I had a great time in undergrad, especially. Law school, not so much fun.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Um more work, more work, more getting yelled at, and then I got the job here.

SPEAKER_04 29:06

Was this your first job and you stayed? Wow. So, do you think you would have a hard time being a defense attorney for a raper? No, you wouldn't if you knew they were guilty.

SPEAKER_05 29:22

No, everyone deserves a defense, you know, that's part of our constitution.

SPEAKER_04 29:28

You get to have a defense, and how would you defend something that you are not like if you are so against it? Like, I I know what you're saying, everyone has due regard, every like everything should happen, there should be a process, but how in in your mind could you defend someone doing something like that?

SPEAKER_05 29:50

Do you do the best you can with what you have? Um, I have a lot of respect for defense attorneys. They do a very, very difficult job, yeah, and it's an important job because the power of the state is is huge. You know, we have the crime lab to analyze things, we have police officers, we have detectives, we have, you know, the state uh department of criminal investigation. We have a lot of resources that the defense doesn't have. Um, and there needs to be a check on our power and authority, otherwise, you know, you get a bad person in there and you have a real mess. So I I when I came out of law school, I could have gone either to defense or prosecution. That's just the first job I got hired for was prosecution.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

So, how long, how long of a goal was that of yours to become an attorney?

SPEAKER_05 30:54

Well, probably since I was 10.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Okay, so pretty good, pretty good chunk. I think it is your life likely.

SPEAKER_05 31:03

It is helpful when you're going to college to know what you're doing it for.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Yeah, okay. So, and because we've talked about this a little bit, but now I get to ask the questions.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Okay. Okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Nothing too crazy, but um since then you've retired. Yes, and that's been a goal too for a while.

SPEAKER_05 31:25

I retirement is the greatest thing in the world.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

So, what was a better feeling of attaining the goal of becoming an attorney or attaining the goal of retirement and spending your time however you like and traveling and well becoming an attorney was was a better feeling because it took a lot of work to get there.

SPEAKER_05 31:47

Whereas retiring takes no work to get there. You just say I've had enough. I mean, yeah, any way you look at it, you're gonna have to have a job most of your life. Um, and you know, I was lucky enough to have a job I liked and that was you know something that I thought made a difference in the in the world and did some good, but um yeah, I mean now I've never been happier than when I've been retired. I mean, I I do what I want and I don't do what I don't want.

SPEAKER_04 32:27

Like even more than before.

SPEAKER_05 32:33

I didn't have a lot of choice while I was working. I mean, you just you go you go to work and you do what has to be done.

SPEAKER_04 32:40

But you travel the world. Where where you have you all traveled since retirement internationally or everywhere? Oh, geez.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Well, not the stupid places, not like Savannah.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

That's stupid. I don't know. Like I want you to say Minnesota, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:00

But I have been to Minnesota, yeah, but that's stupid. I did a tour of the South, so I went down to you know Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, um, Tennessee. Um, my great-great-grandfather was in the Civil War and he was at the Siege of Vicksburg. So I went to the military cemetery in Vicksburg, and I went to uh Laurel, Mississippi, where they do the hometown show, and um went to Chattanooga. That was the first. I mean, I I retired during COVID, so you couldn't really do anything for a while. And then when things started to open up, I did that road trip, and um, that was fun. And I've been to Switzerland and um Austria and Germany and the Czech Republic and Ireland, and there's more Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and since retirement. Since retirement. Um, there's another trip. Where do I go on that one? Savannah. I went to Savannah, that was here with me.

SPEAKER_04 34:22

Yeah, I went with you and Jordan fell out of a window. Sober. She did. Sober. She was she Catherine was this close of eating a tattoo with me. I think you were right there. I don't like tattoos. I know, but it was very because I got this the ghost one, and you were gonna get a cat ghost.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

A little cat can you imagine how much Nash would have loved you even more?

SPEAKER_05 34:50

I don't know if Nash could love it.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

If you would have had a cat, she's pretty if she Catherine would have a cat ghost tramp stamp. Hopefully, Nash wouldn't see that, but yeah, it would have been a great tattoo and a great story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Okay, what's not in Kimmy? You have something you want to say, I can tell. Oh, I was gonna say, is it is the list just shorter of where you haven't been?

SPEAKER_05 35:14

No, there's still a lot of places that I want to go that I haven't been to yet. I was just talking to Nicole today because I'm ready to book a trip to Sicily. I want to go to Sicily. Oh my cool. Um, and there's a there's a lot of places I want to go before I get so old and decrepit I can't do it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Which spot would you go back to?

SPEAKER_05 35:34

Oh, Switzerland is is absolutely beautiful. Um, and this last trip that I went to to Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, and Estonia, um so absolutely beautiful. And just it's like it isn't even real. It's so pretty.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Do you go by yourself?

SPEAKER_05 36:00

I go um both by myself and with other people.

SPEAKER_04 36:05

Um, I have she's confident enough to go anywhere in vacation alone. She doesn't give a I that's what I like about you, is you're like, I'll go.

SPEAKER_05 36:13

Yeah, I I don't mind doing things by myself. Yeah, um, I one of the things that I won't do is share a room with anyone. I'm too old to share a room with people. Come on. Um and and too rich. I mean, you don't need that rich, but I can afford to pay for my own hotel room.

SPEAKER_04 36:33

Well, there you there you go. Not all of us can, Catherine. Sometimes we bunk up with multiple families. Kidding.

SPEAKER_05 36:43

But I I I I like to have time to myself.

SPEAKER_04 36:46

So no, I get that. I like that part of vacation too. Is I didn't get that with you stuck me with Jody.

SPEAKER_05 36:52

I know it wasn't easy either. But you were cheating almost all the time. I was iron deficient. Should we talk about that?

SPEAKER_04 37:00

I had iron deficiency. I was anemic as now you've said it. Now I'm not much of a nap. Yeah, now I'm not much of anemic. Anytime she sat down wasn't like five minutes. I would fall asleep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

She needed a uh transfusion.

SPEAKER_04 37:17

I didn't need a transfusion. Anyways, um, yeah, I was a napper, but thanks for bringing that up. I still had a great time.

SPEAKER_05 37:24

She had iron pour blood and the heartbreak of psoriasis.

SPEAKER_04 37:27

Yeah. Um okay, what else? You never married. No, I never married. Oh, wait, you have a question.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

I uh can we go back unless you want to keep going forward? But I want to go back because I think, and I don't know much about the the justice system, whatever, but how do you prepare for something like where you have to defend somebody who you know is guilty and in the wrong? Does that make sense? Like, how do you I think that's what I I've I'll watch like Dateline or whatever, and I'm like, how did how does the lawyer defend this person when it seems pretty clear that they're guilty?

SPEAKER_04 38:07

I I did ask you that. Yeah, she said because everybody deserves a defense. But how do you do that? I get that, I get that. I think it's like she didn't have to do that much because she was the prosecutor. I was never anything but a prosecutor. Oh, I gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 38:21

But I I think that most defense attorneys, number one, they don't ask the defendant if they did it or not. Sure. Because if you if the defendant tells the attorney that they did it, they can't put them on the witness stand and have them lie. No attorney is allowed to put a witness they know is going to lie on the witness stand. That makes sense. You lose can you lose your license to practice if you do something like that. Okay. So they look for things that um mitigate the responsibility of the person who did it. You know, that that that there was some justification or some reason or collection of evidence that was wrong. And try to make a good deal for that person. Okay. The best outcome that they can. Okay. Um, do you think they have a lot of depression issues?

SPEAKER_04 39:17

Or would I want to say I think it would be a very difficult job to have. Do you think there's a lot of alcohol issues and drug use, maybe in that line of work? I didn't really know because you're not a drinker. I'm not a drinker. And you're you don't seem very depressed. Maybe you are, and I don't know that. I'm not depressed. Um I just but like their yours, I feel like you have windows of really good outcomes, right?

SPEAKER_05 39:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:43

That you're helping people or they're like, thank you for doing that.

SPEAKER_05 39:45

Like you're not I'm you know, uh, defense attorneys, some you know, there's some defense attorneys who have drug and alcohol problems, there's no doubt about it. But there are also some prosecutors that have drug and alcohol problems. I mean, there are everybody in every walk of life has drug and alcohol problems. Um, you know, could have drug and alcohol problems, not everybody has them. Um, you know, there are lots of hard jobs. Being an uh an attorney in the criminal justice system is a hard job, but there are a lot of people that have hard jobs, and you know you just have to find a way of coping with it.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Um how did you cope?

SPEAKER_05 40:31

Did you ever experience like low times or oh yeah, but my low time, you know, the worst of it was when my mother passed. Um and that happens to, you know, if you live long enough, somebody that you love is gonna die. Um but I think that part of what kept me from having real problems is that I had some solitude. I had time to think about what happened and you know what's the best way to deal with this, and uh, you know, to have kind of a philosophy of life and a reason to do what you do and to fall back on that. Um and I think that a lot of people, you know, you guys got five kids. I don't know how you you ever stop and think about things, but I like to think about things. He's a thinker in the show. Yeah, you know, I like to have have an opportunity to just sit and think about how to look at things.

SPEAKER_04 41:37

I know that's really good. And when you said how do you prepare, can I tell you that she sent Keith and I a message and she goes, I need one of you to call me today so we can talk about what I am going to be talking about on the show. She didn't say it like that. That's actually good though.

SPEAKER_05 41:52

Yeah, but I wanted to be prepared.

SPEAKER_04 41:54

I called her.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

We're not prepared.

SPEAKER_04 41:57

I called I called her and I'm like, um, you're don't get me wrong, others have asked, like, hey, anything you want me to? I'm like, nope, it's organic conversation. We're not gonna trip you up. Blah blah blah. So I said to her, I'm like, you would the attorney, I need to prepare for my my case. She's like, well, any good attorney is prepared.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

Well, what's difficult? What was difficult for me with this was I'm like, I gotta try and think of something to ask her that I haven't already asked her. Like, what if I not talked to her about?

SPEAKER_04 42:27

Well, it's no different than like talking to a friend, Andy, and we know everything about him.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

Yeah, but yet I can still talk to him for an hour on the phone about absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_04 42:35

I I believe me, I know it happens all the time. He'll be on speaker phone and good, good, good. Yeah, he says he misses them, guys in Madison. He was like, I don't miss him. It's been over a month.

SPEAKER_05 42:47

Good for him. I'm happy to hear about that.

SPEAKER_04 42:49

It was never the liver that was the problem, it was his bile ducts that were being solved. Good.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

They yeah, they lowered his um the rejection meds.

SPEAKER_04 43:00

They took the saran wrap off his liver.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

They lowered rejection meds, and that helped a ton because then his immune system can't could bump up a little bit and can fight off those minor infections that were that were problematic. Yeah, good. Yeah, he's doing good. Glad to hear that. Do you think do you think a little eight-year-old you would be proud of you of the life that you've lived?

SPEAKER_05 43:26

I eight-year-old me didn't think that the this was gonna go this way. Um, eight-year-old me thought I was gonna have kids and get married. Um yeah, let's get let's get into that.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

Well let's keep on squirrel. Let her finish her thoughts.

SPEAKER_05 43:49

Shit, sorry, go back to eight year old you well uh it's just you know, that's what people did.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

I really didn't know.

SPEAKER_05 43:54

Yeah, you're right, especially at that at that time in life, my mom was. A stay-at-home mom. My dad, you know, put on a uh suit and tie and went to work every day. That was just normal.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

And you you had a larger household, as you know, you know.

SPEAKER_05 44:11

Well, three brothers. Um, and you know, it wasn't until my mom really pushed me to go to college and to be a professional person and to make my own money.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

Because she didn't have a good experience. Do you want to talk about that?

SPEAKER_05 44:33

My mom and dad they had a problematic marriage. Um there was no violence, but um, you know, she wasn't happy in the marriage. He he was, you know, a difficult guy. And she felt trapped because she relied on him for supporting her children, and she said, you know, no matter what you do, always have your own money, always make enough money to support yourself and any children you have. You can't count on anyone else to do that. And you know, it made sense to me. And, you know, I was with somebody for a very, very long time. We were, you know, talking about marriage, and it just after a while, you know, we never lived in the same state. Um, so who's moving? Who's moving? And I loved my job, he hated his. It didn't make sense to me to be an attorney too. No, um, he was he was a very, very smart man, uh, computer person, and um he hated his job, but he didn't want to make a decision whether he was gonna move or not. So I finally said, What is he doing now? He's retired from the job that he hated, and he married, he married a woman who is very much like me.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

Oh chasing that dragon.

SPEAKER_05 46:10

Yeah, he found her. He I mean, she's he really married a nice woman. I like her a lot.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Well, if she's like you, she's gonna be yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:20

Um, so is she an attorney?

SPEAKER_04 46:22

No, no, do they have children?

SPEAKER_05 46:25

They do, they have three kids. Do you and her look alike?

unknown 46:29

Like nothing.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Does she know about you?

SPEAKER_05 46:32

Yeah, we've met.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 46:34

I get a Christmas card from them every year. Yeah, can you show me that Christmas card next year? Is it a picture of them? Yeah, usually there are dogs in it.

SPEAKER_05 46:43

They do have a dog. What kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01 46:44

But it's not in a Christmas card, judging you.

SPEAKER_05 46:48

I don't know. I don't know. I never really paid attention to the dog. I'm sorry. If it was a cat, I wouldn't know what it was.

SPEAKER_04 46:54

Yeah, for sure. Um, but I mean, I'm still friendly with him because it ended well. It was like this isn't working.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

You know, it's funny because you send him any poop in the mail or anything like that.

SPEAKER_04 47:05

I didn't do any of that. I was just gonna talk about that.

SPEAKER_05 47:08

No, it it just kind of ended with a whimper, not a bang. It was just, you know. What does that mean? We never said we're done. Oh, we just killed each other. Well, no one's married. Well, but it had been kind of going downhill for a while, and then we I think both of us at the same time just decided that's enough of that. How long were you together?

SPEAKER_00 47:38

Sorry, my people.

SPEAKER_05 47:40

How long were you guys together? We were together for a long time, I think. It's like 10 years, maybe it was a long time.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

That is a long time. Is it hard getting the Christmas card and like kind of seeing a life that you okay?

SPEAKER_05 47:54

No, no, I I really think that I made the right choice.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_05 47:59

I I think that if we had gotten married, we probably wouldn't have stayed married.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

Oh, and who would have been your divorce attorney? Let's do a plug-in.

SPEAKER_05 48:10

Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 48:13

I've never been married. Why would I have picked out a divorce attorney? Just a hypothetical.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

Maybe, maybe you've ran into some here or there.

SPEAKER_04 48:19

I mean you're looking for a couple of I'm not. I'm not, but I might have to.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

Somebody's gonna get murdered.

SPEAKER_04 48:29

Oh, that's funny. Murder is funny. Okay, let's talk about your cats.

SPEAKER_05 48:35

My cats. That just makes me seem like a weird, crazy catalog.

SPEAKER_04 48:41

It does, it does if they didn't know me. Catherine does not wear cat apparel. No, don't buy her any cat stuff. She has cats and she gets their pictures professionally taken, which people think is funny, right? But people do it with their dogs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

Yeah, look at how many times you had to do that.

SPEAKER_05 48:59

And let's face it, my kids cats are much better looking than your dogs. My dogs? Yeah. That's a lie. That's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 49:07

Today, Carl, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

Pete does not look as bad.

SPEAKER_04 49:10

He doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

No, he's it's still pretty pathetic, but I'm like, I went and picked him up and I'm like, oh they got groomed and they get shaked down in the summer, and they're so ugly. You don't look as ridiculous as Carl does. And Amanda's laughing, and I'm like, I mean that in a really nice way. You did you did a good job.

SPEAKER_04 49:26

But yeah, Carl looks ridiculous. Not his examination. She's not grooming our dogs, girl. That's how things start. Let's talk about your free cat that's your most expensive cat. Femme. That she takes him to UW Madison to get extra care.

SPEAKER_05 49:46

He has a car a feline cardiologist at UW Madison.

SPEAKER_04 49:51

This is true.

SPEAKER_05 49:53

The free cat that was born in a barn. But he's your favorite. I love him. His personality.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

Well, you gotta. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:00

If you know who was do you know who's growing on me? Sawyer's cat lasagna.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

He's so stupid.

SPEAKER_04 50:07

Do you know we found out lasagna? Because I gave Sawyer's friend so much crap because I'm like, why would you buy a cat from Petco? Like, that's so like why would do how many barn cats are free out there? And you you have your fancy cats. I get that. But this is like this cat's not special. This cat's not special. I'm driving with Addison, our barista, to go get flowers. She found a part of her. Not a relevant part of the story.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

But she said to me something of what was the weather like in what direction were you headed?

SPEAKER_04 50:38

I was heading northbound. Okay. It was a nice summer day.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Um, slight breeze from the northwest.

SPEAKER_04 50:44

She said to me, because one of our baristas is works at the Humane Society, she'll go she helps out at Petco too. I'm like, what how does that line up together? She's like, Well, the animal animals that they sell at Petco are rescues. I'm like, What? Yeah, I didn't know that. Yes, they are. So I messaged Sawyer. I said, Sawyer, your cat has some street credit now. Because I always said he's not accepted because he's some pet store cat that lasagna, well, Millie killed a bunny and left a bunny head on our doorstep. Millie's a murderer, and then Smokey's too pretty for the streets, so we don't let her out to even get an opportunity. But lasagna had no street credit until we found out lasagna was a rescue. Explains why it's a little cross-eyed. If you know what I mean, a little mixed breeding going on there.

SPEAKER_05 51:32

Well, I think that that's probably Finn's problem as well. Mixed breeding. I have a feeling he's not the smartest cat that ever lived.

SPEAKER_04 51:40

Neither's lasagna.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

No, lasagna's dumb, but just smart enough that he he's a decent house cat.

SPEAKER_04 51:48

Yeah. He just ran like he's growing on me.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

And we've been leaving the door open occasionally, and he went up and uh look, he he goes out onto the patio, and then as soon as he sees that you see him on the patio, he just darts back into the house. Like he knows he's not.

SPEAKER_04 52:05

Sawyer's afraid of him outside because he's like, I don't think he'll probably run away.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

He won't know his way back.

SPEAKER_04 52:10

Run, he's fat. But like he'll so I go in the bedroom, get lost, and do you know where lasagna is? Sleeping in Smokey's hammock on the window. I'm like, oh boy. Smokey comes in, sits on the windowsill, and the tail is just like just like but I think how long it takes, how long does it take for cats to accept another cat?

SPEAKER_05 52:31

Well, Finn's been in my house for two years, and um Rudy and Betty still are not happy with him. Really? Yeah. Do Ruby and Betty get along well? Rudy.

SPEAKER_04 52:45

Rudy. Rudy. I said Rudy. You said Ruby. Oh, I meant Rudy. You know?

SPEAKER_01 52:52

Sometimes she puts words together, I bet because you said Betty.

SPEAKER_04 52:55

Ruby and Betty. Yeah, that's it. That's what happened. Do they get along well?

SPEAKER_05 53:01

Rudy and Betty get along well. Rudy is Betty's great uncle.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

And she doesn't work in the morning. And they sleep by each other. They ever cuddle?

SPEAKER_05 53:11

No. They don't. Um, Betty doesn't want any other cat sleeping on the bed with me.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 53:18

Um, she always says, like and Finn insists on it, so that there's frequently a fight. That goes on. Um but you know, it's just life. Betty and Rudy are fancy cats.

SPEAKER_04 53:33

They look rag dolls, they're beautiful. They are very beautiful, and they know it. Yeah, cats. That's the thing is with cats, they know when they're pretty. Yeah, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 53:42

I think you tell them too much. Well, you know, Smokey knows she's pretty because you tell her 18 times a day.

SPEAKER_04 53:48

I do.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

You gotta knock her down a couple pegs.

SPEAKER_04 53:51

And Millie's actually pretty too, but we don't give her that much. We just call her the murder cat. She's Aunt Agnes. I'm gonna call her Aunt Agnes. Agnes, what a great cat name. Um, Kami, what else should we touch on with her?

SPEAKER_05 54:06

Um I'm not connected to any other major crimes actually through my family.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

Oh, good. Could you talk about like some of the cases that stand out to you that you remember that will kind of always stick with you?

SPEAKER_05 54:24

We were on the way home and uh the child sexual assaults will always stick with me. Um they're always just like horribly, horribly sad. And um, you know, dealing with little kids who have had to go through things like that.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

But he's a big dude and he's like intimidating.

SPEAKER_05 54:42

But though those are the ones that you know that hurt.

SPEAKER_04 54:47

There was one guy um and he was like, Do you wonder, or do you like do your own follow-up and wonder, like check in on him?

SPEAKER_05 54:55

I don't do it intentionally, um, and but on several occasions, my young women have come up to me and I don't recognize them because when I was dealing with them, they were just little girls, and now they're adults, but they'll come up to me and thank me and you know, tell me that they're doing okay, which helps. Yeah, and it's funny, you know, I don't go to a lot of public places on purpose in Shawnee because it's a little town and people come up to me all the time that remember me from court. Only once was it a bad experience. Oh shit happened. Uh it was at the Shawnee County Fair, and what you know, somebody who I had prosecuted was drunk and was acting like a fool. Did you pull out your gun?

SPEAKER_04 55:46

Um I don't have the fair. Why would I have a gun at the fair?

SPEAKER_01 55:51

I feel like that's a good place to have one.

SPEAKER_04 55:53

I feel like if you had a gun and I was you, I would bring a gun to the fair. I don't have a gun at the fair. Do you have a gun? I do have a gun. Good for you. That makes me really happy. For you, for your safety. Yeah. It really does. Like you live in, we're not gonna go into deets because we don't want you to find her. She likes me like that. But she was there.

SPEAKER_05 56:14

I have a gun, but I haven't touched it in in years. You should practice.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

We should practice some more.

SPEAKER_05 56:19

I went out to the range, I when I got it, I went out to the uh range with the with the police and was trained on it for you all. So I and really disturbing part of it is that I was a better shot than a lot of the cops were.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

Oh, I don't doubt that.

SPEAKER_05 56:35

I don't doubt that.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

There's a fair amount of theory behind that.

SPEAKER_04 56:38

Go ahead. He's a firearms instructor.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

Is that somebody who's never shot a gun before can be a very good shot flipping it off initially in the beginning before they think they know everything. And people that have been trained and think like they have like this the most false confidence are not as good because they anticipate the recoil is the biggest reason why. So when you shoot multiple times faster, it's because I don't know if I want to tell everybody this, but you're just you're just pointing and shooting, right? You're just pointing at your target. It's a simple, very simple thing. That's why it's actually fairly easy to teach people that don't know how to do it. Yeah, it's it's the people that shoot and then they go to train professionally that are difficult to like the hunters like I hunt with my dad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:31

When I was a kid, we used to, I mean, we were at the farm all summer, every summer, and we would go and shoot at targets and bottles and all the things that you know it's dumb things to that people do. And you know, as long as it wasn't a shotgun, which they thought was you know very hilarious to have a seven-year-old shoot and have it knock them over because you know what's what's more fun than that? Yeah, it's kind of scary, you know. But if it was like it's if it wasn't a shotgun, you know, I was a good shot back then, too. Yeah, so so maybe you should have been a cop. No, I cops don't make money.

SPEAKER_01 58:09

Yeah, look at me in my dead end loser job.

SPEAKER_04 58:14

We call it his dead end job, and it's a it's a joke, it's not a dead-end job.

SPEAKER_05 58:18

No, no, it's truthfully.

SPEAKER_04 58:20

I mean they do get paid pretty well. Looking for the government is not a bad way to make a living, and that's the thing is like if you look way out the benefits and you weigh out the insurance, you make a lot of money.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

The retirement, the retirement.

SPEAKER_05 58:33

It's how many jobs nowadays pay a pension, right? Yeah, that I mean, that's why I'm I can afford to be retired. Is I get paid you got paid more to retire than when you were working.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

I may my take home is more now than it was when I was working, and that's kudos to our retirement system, it's run very well.

SPEAKER_04 58:55

Hopefully, that doesn't get butchered sometime.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

Yeah, well, it's doing well so far.

SPEAKER_05 58:59

Well, it's a vested uh benefit, they can't change it once you have it, right? So as long as you can keep and the Wisconsin retirement is like the best retirement system in the country, is it really?

SPEAKER_01 59:13

It's yeah, it's very well compared to an emulated like they everybody wants to do it.

SPEAKER_04 59:20

Really? Yeah, did not know that.

SPEAKER_05 59:22

No, that's that's so that's for teachers, all state employees, yes, not teachers anymore, depending upon when the Act 10, yeah. So new teachers don't are not eligible for pension. Now, if you had it already, if you were really yeah, can't they still get it?

SPEAKER_01 59:42

They just have to pay their portion.

SPEAKER_05 59:44

No, I don't believe that they are eligible for pension. We'll have to fact check that.

SPEAKER_04 59:47

Yeah, see if she's giving us fake news.

SPEAKER_05 59:50

Well, you know, I was the president of the union representing assistant distro attorneys for many years.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

So you might know a thing or two?

SPEAKER_05 59:57

You might know a thing or two.

SPEAKER_01 59:58

You might know.

SPEAKER_04 59:59

You might you might we'll give you a mic.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

Damn act 10.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:03

I I hey so during act 10. Now my parents are swingers in more than one way. They swing they swing from Republican to Democrat a lot. And during Act 10, was that 20 2008?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:23

2010.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:24

10? Was it already 10? I was living Iola. This they worked, they were prison guards, and they were paid to go door to door and to try to get people to go against it, against Scott Walker, recall something against Scott Walker, as as prison guards in their prison uniforms. Well, their union must have paid them. Yep, they were paid to go and try to like whatever. So they were huge democrats then, like, because it was everything. Here's my thoughts. Here's my thoughts on that. Like, as I'm saying it out loud. I am all about going understanding both sides. I am one of those people that can like see left and right, but it's not always it's been a while, it's not always though just because it benefits me. I will say that it's not like oh, because it's gonna be well.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

Then you're looking at it at the wrong angle.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:21

Yes, so it's not I don't think that's okay to be like, well, I don't like this because now it's affecting me personally. No, it's you had to you have to look out skewed at everything, how it's affecting everybody. So maybe you don't believe that, but I do care about how it affects things affect everybody, right? And so I don't think just because it was directly affecting the prison system, like to just jump sides now, not just the prison system, but the retirement, whatever, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:49

Like that's well, traditionally state employees make less for this doing similar jobs to people in the private sector. Private sector, yeah, but it's made up for by the benefits, and that is true, and that was the draw, then and that was the draw for a lot of people. That's the reason I stayed in that job. Um, and and then it's very having that taken away has affected people who are in oh my god, state, yeah, jobs.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:26

Do you know how hard it is? How hard it was to get to go through the process to be a prison guard? I did it. It was a it was a process. They you couldn't just be anybody and get through it. Now, my dad, my parents' friend stopped here on his way up north, and he's still he's almost retiring. He goes, they literally have open interview days because they can't get anybody with a pulse. He goes, I am not joking. It's like sign your name here. Do you have 10 minutes for an interview? He's like, they have like huge it's a hard job. It is a very hard job. Talk about depression and alcohol issues. Like you're in prison every day, all day.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:04

But they um you're doing time along with the people who are there serving.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:09

But he goes, There's no standards now. He's like, Because nobody wants that job, nobody wants to work nights, holidays, weekends for mandatory overtime. But I think now they start at like 40 an hour.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:21

They had to increase it because they couldn't keep staff.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:24

That's what he said. He's like, but they like they don't even have a fitness. Maybe they do, maybe I'm lying. But he said, like, there's like 300 pound people.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:33

I mean, maybe it took over it took five years for them to replace me after I retired.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:39

Because nobody wants that.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:40

No, there's just, I mean, it it doesn't help that it's in Shawnee. People, you know, it with a law degree don't necessarily think Shawnee's a great place to live sometimes. I think they're wrong. Shawnee is a nice place to live. I like Shawnee County. Um and it's Thunderwell, it's less expensive than big cities. But you know, not everybody thinks the way that I do, which is probably a good thing. But I mean, to have to wait five years to hire for my position. Yeah, that's insane. It's crazy. Not my problem though.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:17

So such big shoes to fill that they just yeah, she did.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:20

And I always would say that like you're in good hands with Catherine because you were gonna unless you're chewing gum on the witness stand.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:26

She's gonna smack you. I give you one warning though. Yeah, I did good.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:33

I didn't do it again. I probably would get up on the stand and swallow my gum. It's probably what would have forgot. Anything else we should touch with?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

Um, okay, one. She's kind of an interesting fella, isn't she? But she's a lady. Good to point that out. Um so if you could give a piece of advice for somebody that's going into law school currently, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:59

Just get through it. Okay. Law school is no fun at all. Maybe they've changed since I was there, but uh most attorneys that I've talked to who went to different law schools than I did. They scream at you. The professors scream at you. It's a softer world now. They probably don't really know. I don't know. I don't know if they I mean it was that was the way it was. And when I why do they scream at you? They want to toughen you up.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:26

Yeah, I bet you they don't do that anymore. Let's hear from the listeners. Um I mean, if you're gonna be in court, judges aren't always your you know, real friendly with military had to soften up. Yeah, they can't scream at you.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:40

Well when I was there, a third of the people who started law school were dropped out in the first year.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:50

Or both buckets.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:52

That's a lot of people. So it's it's not uh they they the the old saying is that the first year they scare you. To death, the second year they work you to death, and the four third year they bore you to death.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:06

That sounds like a terrible time.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:08

It was not fun. Yeah. But you just have to get through it. And you know, I was stubborn. I wasn't leaving.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:18

Okay, I have one more question. You kind of like her, don't you? I do. You're interesting. Um, what is one or a couple changes that you noticed from when you started in the court system versus when you finished?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:33

Um yeah, good question, Cammy.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:39

I think that law enforcement officers who we work with very, very closely became more professional. Oh, really? As time went on. I can see that. But also had less heart.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:59

Oh, I always liked the cops that had a heart that could see things from both sides. Do you want to talk about a cop that you're thinking of like that? Give him a shout-out of a cop that you like that has a good heart.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:16

There's a lot of them. It's hard to know.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:18

I choose because a compliment from Catherine's a huge compliment because you don't say things about that.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:23

There were really a lot of good officers. Um and I I'm afraid if I name names that I I wouldn't say somebody that was gives a shit and feel and have them feel bad about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

But since when do you care about people feeling bad?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:38

I mean, I do feel a little bad about people feeling bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:41

Oh, all of a sudden we care. Um somebody else is getting soft, yeah, a little soft over here. But yeah, they were.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:48

I mean, there's more good than bad, that's for sure. There is the bad ones though. God, it was hard to deal with them. Um, but they usually didn't last. That was one of the nice things about being in a small county. You can't be bad and not have everyone know it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:05

Yeah. Um just like air.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:10

But yeah, there were there were a lot of cops that did a really, really, really good job. And you know, took pride in it. And you should. I mean, what would we do without him? Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:27

Well, she's not gonna budge, she's not gonna name anything.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:29

No, I you know, it's like when you're at the at the Academy Awards and you thank everybody and you leave off your mother or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:36

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:39

See, if you told me to prepare, I could thought I could have thought and written it down. No, no, it's okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:46

We don't have to. I know what, but it just that's all.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:51

But yeah, it's the same with the social workers, it's the same with all the people that you you deal with in the court system. I I you know, I I read Shaunel Let's Talk About it, and you know, people talking about how you know we have the worst court system and so I know we don't constitution forgot and all that kind of crap. Well, you know, I know the names of most of the people who are saying that, and there's a reason that they're saying that because they spend a lot of time in court. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:17

Their perspective may be skewed a little bit, right? Just a little.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:21

I know when I would hear people complain when I moved here about the DA's office or like any the court. I'm like, you have not you have not a clue. It is so much worse. Other places I'm not gonna name, but so much worse.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:34

Like you guys actually uh we tried to take the time to talk to the police and talk to the victims and talk to the witnesses so that they felt heard.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:47

That's huge.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:48

And you just hope that you're one of the people out there.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:51

All right. Well, Catherine, I really like that you came on. We'll probably have you back. Well, good.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

Would you come back? How was it?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:57

It was fine, it was all right.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:58

It was all right. See, see, now she's back back to old Catherine. There we go.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:07

I don't want to encourage you guys too much. Thanks for being here, though. But I have Jody on now. We will. She, I don't I don't know if she will. She will. I don't know if she might fall. She's getting old. She fell out of a window. You gotta stop calling us your old lady friends, please. Why? What don't you want me to call you?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:27

Young lady friends.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:29

My friend. Friend. Well, because I feel like it it it kind of gives people perspective of what my vacation is gonna be like. If I'm like, I'm going to Savannah, Georgia with my old lady friends. Not like I'm going to Savannah, Georgia with the girls. They're gonna be like, oh, what are you gonna do? That's gonna be like wild. Girl, I don't want to do anything wild. I'm hanging out with Catherine. I might get a tattoo, she might almost get a tramp stamp, but nothing. But yeah, that's nice. That's not gonna happen. All right, thanks for listening. See you next Tuesday.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:00

Bye, everybody.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:01

Bye. Help me really walk in your eye.