The Cult Episode

Warning: This video discusses sexual abuse, molestation, and spiritual abuse. It may include difficult or triggering subject matter. Viewer discretion is advised. Please take care while watching, and don't hesitate to pause or stop if needed.

This is the episode you've all been waiting for. We won't lie, this is a tough watch. 

In this episode, we start to scratch the surface of the Two by Twos cult that NiCole and our guest Amber grew up in. 

We will be producing a longer series on this so stay tuned for more on that. 

For now, grab a coffee, pull up a seat, and buckle up as we dive into the Two by Twos cult.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Can I say something? Yeah, I want to hear it. Okay. This is why you're here, because you're gonna talk.

SPEAKER_09 0:04

I'm I'm gonna let Nicole lead because she's very natural. But I just want to say um everything that's said is not like I don't want people to be offended or like have their feelings hurt. This is really just speaking about my experience and how like I was harmed. And so it's just me talking about how it affected me. And if it affected you different, that's fine. Um, I have a lot of love for you know people who are still in or were in, and it's just part of like my story that I want to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

I like that. Okay, yeah, and I'm happy you said that because I think there's a lot of truth to that. No point intending some truth, but not like the truth, because that's what they call it. You are feeling close to me.

SPEAKER_05 0:54

You tell me. You know you're still telling freely walk in your hi.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

My name is Nicole Fisher, and this is my husband, Keith Fisher. Hi. This is Beans and Banger, if you don't know where you are. And um we have a really great guest today. This is the one you guys have been waiting for. Cammy, too. Cammy's like, yes. Um, I don't even know if we should go out of the gate and call it the cult episode, but I think for the people, we're gonna call it the cult episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

For the people, the people want it.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Um, this is Amber. Amber and I were in the cult together. That's how we met, and we've been in touch since. Um and this is my husband who's gonna learn probably a lot that he doesn't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

I got the floppy mic.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

I feel like I have the floppy mic. What kind of budget?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

It's definitely it's definitely floppy.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Um, I don't even know where to. This is gonna be a distraction, so let's get this out of the way.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I gotta deal with it now. Otherwise, it's it's gonna be a whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

All right, otherwise it's like rude because you'll be like, you know, oh my god, and then else and Keith will be like, you know what I mean? I'll look over and like stop being rude. It's flopping.

SPEAKER_08 2:28

Nobody that's what she said.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

So that's a floppy joke. Very worldly of you.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Um I think this episode is just gonna be mostly them anyway. I don't even really need a mic.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Because you know, the men rule the household.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

And well, you must, you must uh what is it? Not obey. Um, submit. Submit, okay. You must submit to your man.

SPEAKER_09 2:52

Says it in Ephesians. Oh shit. She's I only know that because Mike Mike looked it up and quotes it to me all the time, but he'll say, Ephesens. What does it say in Ephesins?

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Like, he says it to be funny, or is that really what he thinks it says?

SPEAKER_09 3:07

Um, he can't read. He can't work well, because he's not a Bible guy, so he doesn't know it's Ephesians.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Is that why you married him? Is because he wasn't a Bible guy? So I mean, there's a hard word.

SPEAKER_09 3:17

That's not the top thing, no. But he it's it's a funny joke to be like, look up the whatever Bible verse, because I would say like my dad would like quote the Bible verse, love you, dad. But he'd quote the Bible verse, and so Mike looked it up, but he doesn't say it right, so then I'll be like, if you can't pronounce it, don't quote it.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

So it's a whole it's an inside joke. That is really funny. Okay, so Kami, where should we start? Like, this is a lot to unwrap.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

How about let's start with how you guys met.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Do you remember the first time you we met? Because I am trying to think of like the first.

SPEAKER_09 3:55

Uh, I don't know. I would just say Ryan Audrey's uh farm for meeting. Oh, remember the willow tree in the front yard? I remember you getting your butt spanked 30 times every meeting, yeah. And your brother.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

So naughty.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

That's why it turned out so great.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Yeah, you know, like it's the beatings, it's the beatings, it's the spankings. Yeah, Colton too. Remember when he was running by the window? Yes, my dad put him in the car because he was being naughty in church, and then like dad came back and Colton wasn't with. Colton's my little brother, and everyone's kind of like, what happened to Colton? And then all of a sudden you see him they had like a bow window, and he was like running back and forth, going like it was so funny. Um can I say something? Yeah, I want to hear it. Okay, this is why you're here because you're gonna talk.

SPEAKER_09 4:45

I'm I'm gonna let Nicole lead because she's very natural, but I just want to say um everything that's said is not like I don't want people to be offended or like have their feelings hurt. This is really just speaking about my experience and how like I was harmed. And so it's just me talking about how it affected me. And if it affected you different, that's fine. Um, I have a lot of love for you know, people who are still in or were in, and it's just part of like my story that I want to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

I like that. Okay, yeah, and I'm happy you said that because I think there's a lot of truth to that. No pun intended some truth, but not like the truth, because that's what they call it. The truth. But um, no, that is true because we have to respect like still the people that in your life, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Well, that and like keep in mind, you guys all know this. I'm not even gonna say it. There's bad people in every oh 100% every type of situation, and for whatever reason, oftentimes they overshadow the good, and that's always for the most part. Most people are good. It's just there's some bad ones.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Yep. Okay, so let's dive in.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Um, what so you remember her getting spanked? Yes, getting spanked. Oh, I'm gonna try not to.

SPEAKER_09 6:07

Um, well, the seven when my mom and dad joined, and her mom and dad were already there. We were already which it was like, oh my gosh, there's another family with like four kids. Awesome. Yeah. Um, and who else?

SPEAKER_02 6:19

It was like, well, yeah, we don't need to yeah, we don't need to name like the people, but I I can't even remember.

SPEAKER_09 6:26

It was a lot of little kids, of course.

SPEAKER_08 6:30

I'm trying to be that way.

SPEAKER_09 6:32

There was a lot of kids, so it was like a draw because we could go to meeting and there were just tons of little kids, but your family was naughty, you were the naughty guys.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Yeah, but don't laugh at these kids being naughty. We were the naughty kids, and I wanted to play with Nikki all the time. And here this whole time you and I had it probably a stronger connection, yeah. Um, okay, let's let's start. Like, what was life like how old were you then? I don't know. How old are you? I'm gonna be 43. So I'm 41. Yeah, so you were just two years, but you were little. I was like four when we joined. Okay, I don't remember life before truth. So we were probably five and seven then. Okay. I don't remember like like I don't remember Christmas.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

What was the weather like that day?

SPEAKER_09 7:18

I was like, I walked into the room and then there was Nikki with her braided crown, and I was like girl, step aside. The queen is in the house.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

I'm Jesus. That gets like absolutely not. That's not Jesus. It's a man. Oh my god. Um, okay, so what did how would you explain okay, wait, let's I know where to start. Where do you remember life before joining? Do you remember Christmas and Halloween? Because Dale and Malia have those memories, and then like she's like, Oh, it sucked. She's like, Dale was like, Christmas was so great at our house. Mom would make a whole bunch of popcorn and we would make like she would sit and watch movies, and it'd be like hot chocolate, and then like she'd have the house so cozy and stuff, and like I don't have those, so like it wasn't as I don't think it was hard, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:10

As hard of a transition to like go without it right at all in Halloween costumes.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Dale was like, mom would make them, it was so fun.

SPEAKER_09 8:17

Did his hay wagon ride and you think it was all the drugs that like erased your memory or your age?

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Like my drugs that I did that you did after, like marijuana drugs, whatever. I haven't done anything hard, like on the record, like just like some marijuana I dabbled with, you know. Um, like any good human yes.

SPEAKER_09 8:38

I remember Christmas, my mom would like decorate and go all out. She'd make um Christmas or like goodies and put tinsel on the tree, and I think she even like wrapped as like a side business. She would like wrap the presents. She would, she was crafty. Yep. I remember getting a bikes for Christmas.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

And did you guys still celebrate when you were joining? Mm-mm. Just stop.

SPEAKER_09 9:01

We don't we don't celebrate Christmas anymore or Halloween, and they got rid of the TV, which I I'm we like, we'd play Mario Brothers and stuff, and my one grandpa, um, he would always be like, If I buy the kids a TV, will you let them have it? Because he just felt so bad that we didn't have a TV. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Well, you weren't like us, you didn't hide it in the closet.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

We had a little tiny closet TV viewers.

SPEAKER_09 9:25

We had a tight, we had a tiny and you would show us, you'd be like, Come here. Wanted me to be at your house, you'd be like, Come here. And then you guys would show us your TV. The blankets over it. Look at I gotta show you something. It was like at the bottom of your basement steps, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Like straightforward. Yeah, where we'd pull each other down in the blankets, uh you crash into that door. Gosh, yeah, that was.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

If you watch TV at night, Jesus can't see.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Yeah, until there's a maybe that's what you guys were saying.

SPEAKER_09 9:51

No, no, until you're watching it, and then there's a thunderstorm, and you're like, because after like I was married and stuff, we'd have a TV, and there was this time we were watching TV and there was a thunderstorm. And I was like, Is this God? Actually, no, we weren't watching TV, but we had the TV in the closet. And I was like, is there anything you would change? Because we were like, what if this is like the end of the world?

SPEAKER_02 10:10

And and we did not think it was the TV.

SPEAKER_09 10:13

We got rid of we got rid of our TV, and I was like crying. I was like, oh my gosh, we gotta get this out of our house.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Like, this is when you were married? Yes, your first time, yes. So not like recently you didn't do this, right? Didn't what recently you didn't have this experience.

SPEAKER_09 10:29

No, this was like 20 years. I just want the viewers to know that this isn't like no, this is like a long time ago in my first marriage when I was still in, because I was in until like my divorce.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Yeah, okay. Let's talk about let's okay, anyways. There's so much to unravel.

SPEAKER_09 10:43

I also Keith didn't ask me his question either.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Oh, uh, I've actually gotten some pretty firm criticism that I need to come up with some new questions.

SPEAKER_07 10:54

Who said that from Nicole or from somebody?

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Uh it wasn't me. A gal that I went to school with, she's like, I listen to all your all your episodes. She's like, You gotta come up with some new questions. Like, well, it's true.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Well, it's sad when people are prepared for it.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah, it's not as fun.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Because it no, but it's sad because like Miriam wanted you to ask her first memory.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

So can you ask that one? Because she was like, All it was a great one. And then look at we had that latte, the ho ho latte, or the well, don't or don't prepare, and then you won't be disappointed. What did you have to say? She had something to say to her.

SPEAKER_07 11:32

I have two things. Okay. Uh, can you just give a basis of like a background on what the religions we're a part of? Just for people that don't know any of this, that are not fully prepared. I had to Google it to take it. I can take this one.

SPEAKER_09 11:48

Yeah, I want you to take it. Okay. So it's um a non-denate non-denominational Christian group that does not identify with a name.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Just no name, legit, but no name.

SPEAKER_09 12:01

Um, if you want to Google it, you'd Google the two by two religion. Yep. And what was the other part of your question? Just lower background idiot. Yeah, like so um they meet in the homes, they don't have um choice. Correct. So you're just meeting in the homes of the people who go, which is important. If you're talking well, it's just important to know you're meeting in a home. Um, the ministers, which they were refer to as workers, um also don't get married, and they also don't have homes either. So they're just staying with you in your homes and you're feeding them and giving them money, giving them money, but not um, there's not gonna be a collection plate. It's gonna be more kind of under the table where you're that's what I will say is that they didn't what are we calling the church?

SPEAKER_02 12:55

Can I don't want to say cult, I don't want to continue to offend people, I just want to do it a few times. A group? Can we just say a group or the religion or two by two?

SPEAKER_00 13:06

How about what that was? No, you don't want to say that.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Let's say truth, let's say the truth for old time's sake. Okay, um, I will say that about truth. Oh, throwing up in my mouth.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Um, that where is the the truth name come from? Because it's not doesn't have a name.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

No, this is what my mom would say it's because it's the truth. It's yeah, it's because it's the truth. That's why. So is this just it's the only way, and if you're not in it, you're going to hell. Like Ann Joyce was gonna burn in hell.

SPEAKER_09 13:33

So there's every there's like all these other religions that are misled in thinking it's the one true way, and this is the way and the truth that they say derived directly from Jesus, and that's also not true. So I don't think we should say the truth because I'm gonna get I'm gonna just laugh every time. Okay. It'll be hard, it'll be distracting.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Then let's go to cult. Okay. Okay, so we're going. We're going. If you're offended, this is your chance to stop watching. Um what was the original thing that we were talking about? We explained. No, what was your question?

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Well, Cammy was just asking a little bit like what your what like your involvement was and like how it oh, I I know what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

What I can give the cult credit for is they didn't ask for money.

SPEAKER_09 14:34

No, they didn't openly ask for money. And that's how you get people to come is you're like, oh no, it's these like penniless workers who are just going around spreading the gospel, but you're giving them I mean, maybe your mom didn't handle it.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

My parents were poor, so they probably knew now. Let's not hit them up. They have a two-bedroom ranch. Maybe it's three.

SPEAKER_09 14:54

Maybe they didn't feel convicted to oh, my parents would have not given money. Okay, well, yeah, they're getting money. Your parents probably did. They have plenty of money, they're not penniless.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

No, okay, so that is what I will say is like it was hard when I adjusted to the worldly ways um how different it is that churches ask for money openly or hand a pan around to collect. Because that is it's a turn-up. I understand it now. I do get it because you need you need money to function, right? I understand it, but I was always like at first, like, this is weird. And there was a couple of churches I visited to try to find a church to go to that I was completely turned off because all the whole sermon was about was money. Giving, giving this much, you gotta give this much. I'm like, dude, like well, maybe it was just a bad first time at the church, but I'm like, this is weird.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Like, yeah, where you're thinking, how am I gonna buy my cigarettes if I give this church all this money?

SPEAKER_09 15:53

How am I gonna buy my cigarettes? And I think that also um giving the impression that you're not collecting money because you're like, oh, look at their like they're so humble, they're not, it's all part of the manipulation that makes it a little bit more you're right. Um it's like easy to take advantage of people and and make you actually feel like when they're brainwashing you, like, how could this be wrong? Because it's so different from everything else, and it's not about um, you know, trying to get money for like worldly possessions. You're right.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

So not like a house, yes, or a huge church, because they always criticize huge churches, yeah, right. And and like that's their thing that they hang on, but it's like, okay. So tell me what it's like your experience of what it was like as a female as in a young girl growing up in the the church we went to.

SPEAKER_09 16:49

Um it was very restrictive. Um, I I've had anxiety really from a very young age because um it's being preached to you. First of all, just being a female, you're less important than men, and you need to listen to men. And so um, as a female now, I know that I constantly did not trust my gut instinct, and I'd be like, well, this can't be right. You know, you have to get um intel from your dad or the workers or something, or the elders. Um you're in these meetings and they're telling you, like, um, you know, the righteous scarcely be saved, where does that leave the sinners or something along that line? So it's like, I'm gonna try my hardest and it's barely gonna be good enough. And how am I gonna get there when there's workers and these people that are like not sinning? And also what really like messed me up a lot is I don't even know who said it, but um maybe convention or something. But the idea of if you remember convention, we'll get we'll get to that. If you think something in your head, like, and I think it was in relationship to like lust, like if you look at a woman and you're like lusting after her, um I think there's actually a verse. Yeah, there's like a verse that's like if you lust after her, you've already sinned. Yep. So I'm like, okay, if I if I think that I want to do something in my head, then it's already a sinner.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

I remember feeling the same way.

SPEAKER_09 18:16

So I was like, I wanted to paint my nails red so bad, like all the time. I was like, oh, I would just love to, but then I'm like, oh my gosh, you're sinning. And if you just got so terrible, if you got closer to the Lord, then you like wouldn't feel like you want to wear red nail polish or like for females, you don't wear pants, you don't wear jewelry, you don't cut your hair, you don't wear makeup. So all of these things and girl, you showed up today, and you don't wear pants to school. So like wanting to go to school and feeling like I want to wear pants to fit in, I want to do all these things to fit in. I'm like, well, I'm just not close enough to God because why do I still have these like desires to be like the world? So it was just constantly being like, you're inadequate, you're not doing what you're supposed to be, you're not close enough to God, and you're not gonna get to heaven, but you should just keep trying, and it just makes you really just feel pretty worthless, and yeah, that's a really good way of explaining it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Didn't she do a great job? It's all the therapy.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

Oh, is it good for you?

SPEAKER_09 19:22

So I recommend you doing some around this if you haven't. I haven't.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

This is me. This is yeah, we just get to deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

No, but that's a really healthy um like way of explaining it, and that is exhausting to hear.

SPEAKER_09 19:39

Yeah, it's exhausting to look that way too, and it affects you long. And I mean, like, I've been out for like 15 years, and um, I, you know, just did my last. I do a lot of different modes of therapy, but um, I guess we can get to oh man, this is just I'm out.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Can we just take a look at her how beautiful her eyes are? Doesn't she have the most beautiful eyes?

SPEAKER_00 20:05

I don't want to lust her eyes.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Yeah, don't you dare you've always had the most beautiful and what I've always loved about your looks, I love more about you than your looks. Yeah, but what I've always loved about your looks is you have really dark hair in the bluest eyes, which is a rare combo. What are you doing? I just have to wipe my eyes. Oh, okay. It's like shoot me or what?

SPEAKER_04 20:28

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_08 20:29

Could you imagine? I'd be like, you lured me here for this. That would be great.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

We'd get so many views.

unknown 20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Do anything next time playing better. Um, okay, I didn't mean to interrupt, but I just wanted to highlight because I I'm in my era of telling people what I think in a good way, the good things.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

She you've always been good at that. I've yeah, I've since I've known you.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

I've always tried, but anyways, go on. More about your terrible, terrible life. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 21:01

Um I was saying that over the like 15-ish years, I think that I've been out in 2011. Yeah, so 15 years, I've done a lot of therapy, like years of therapy, but different. I don't even know why we were talking about that.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Um, because you explain something really well. Oh, gotcha. And you're like, yeah, that's because that is exactly the way. And so here's an example when Pastor Sorley was on, and I was telling my mom, like, how much people reached out and they're like, hey, I don't belong to a religion because I have such an ick feeling about this is the way. Yeah, it is this way. And like they're like, I just want, I believe in Jesus, I believe in these things, but like I don't like how religions are so like structured with like this is we are the way. And they liked how Pastor Sorley was like, because I asked him, I bet you Jesus is gonna be really excited to meet you when you get to heaven. He's like, No more than meeting you. And I'm like, Well, you're like better. He goes, No, that's not how it works.

SPEAKER_09 21:58

And and that's a sign that. Of like a healthy yes, because I must come saying it.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

We were not raised that way. Right. There were total tears. Yes. And so when I was explaining that to my mom, she was that's not true. I'm like, it is true. And he and because he said, try to think about the worst person you can think of. And God loves him just as much as you. And like that's hard to wrap your mind.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Why is it a guy?

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Well, because bear or man, bear or man.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

You said him loves him. Why is the worst person you know a guy?

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Well, they're always it's always a guy.

SPEAKER_09 22:30

Well, obviously, it's always a guy. Obviously, the worst person we know is gonna be a man.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

It's gonna be a man, it's gonna be a fence. Yeah. Um, but um, it is because I also have to retrain myself to think that like it's okay.

SPEAKER_09 22:48

Can I be honest about something? I love that. God's a woman. You think so? Yeah, yeah. It's the only think about it, but it's the only obvious.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

I want I want to hear your perspective of it. I'm not against it.

SPEAKER_09 23:01

Well, um, okay, this is this is my own personal opinion. This is not based on the Bible. I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Um, I think that you don't need a disclaimer for first of all.

SPEAKER_09 23:14

I think thank you.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

I appreciate that because I do feel like who cares? Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

That's your opinion.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yeah. Um we're we're not big. People aren't gonna watch this. Okay, so I think actually we're monetized. Oh nice, yeah, that's a big milestone.

SPEAKER_09 23:31

I think actually, um okay, I'm gonna go off on some tangents. First of all, if God's just one thing, it's a woman because we're like nurturing and we I don't know if I want to, I don't I don't think I want to explain this, but honestly, I think maybe there's a higher power and it's not people want to label it as God or whatever. I think there's a higher power, and I think it's all of us at our highest consciousness together being the best that we can. And I think that's God.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

That's that's very cool.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Okay, and I I'm not against it being a woman. It God being, I can totally see that. Why wouldn't it be mother nature?

SPEAKER_06 24:20

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Like everything is like the mom, the moon's a woman.

SPEAKER_09 24:24

That's why I don't understand. If if they were gonna say like that, God's a man, why isn't God more nurturing? Why is he like, you know, I'm I'm gonna spare the rod, spoil the child, or like be in submission or all of this. That's not how that's not a nurturing, it's not nurturing.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Like old testament days were he was a pretty angry guy. It's like starting shit on fire. I don't even know that much about the Bible, honestly, because I was we didn't study, so I tell people that I'm like, listen, I don't know things like that because we didn't have like Sunday school or like actually studying.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

They didn't at church.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

No, no, it was meetings, it was like no so explain what a meeting is.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Were you professing? Did you profess? Yeah, I didn't. I was a badass like that.

SPEAKER_09 25:12

You didn't know whether I professed or not.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

You stood up and professed.

SPEAKER_09 25:16

Yes, I belonged to this until I was 27. Of course, I'm not like sitting here not professing.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

I profess when I was eight. I feel like I remember it. Was at a convention or was it at okay?

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Let's get into convention and talk about how it's concentration campaigns.

SPEAKER_09 25:31

Okay, well, like let's describe a meeting, then we'll describe convention.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

So there's different this is what I'm talking about, Kamy. There's so much to I know. We need to get to the root, yeah. And then, like, okay, so like what is the religion? We talked about it.

SPEAKER_07 25:43

And explain what is a professing, like that you're professing to be a Christian or whatever.

SPEAKER_09 25:49

Okay, so when you profess, it's um you stand up in a meeting or convention, and they'll say, Um, if you want to make your choice to serve the Lord forever, or something verbiage along that line, um, then you can stand up in the last verse of the hymn, and then you stand up and you remain standing until the hymn is over.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

And everyone looks like how embarrassing.

SPEAKER_09 26:09

It's yeah, very anxiety inducing. Um, and then that you're basically saying that um you're gonna serve the Lord forever, but it also then in these meetings, you're gonna um say a prayer and say a testimony. So you'd pray during the prayer part of the meeting, and then the testimony, you like study yourself and then you study the Bible, and then you come up with whatever your conviction is around what you've read. Um, and then there's like another tier that would be when you get baptized, and then um once you're baptized, then you can take the emblems, which is grape juice and bread.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yeah, we couldn't even have wine. I wasn't a part of it.

SPEAKER_09 26:53

Some some places in the world they do do wine during the meetings, but not in this.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

No, and also side note where we grew up, it was the worst of them. I have been to other, even like in Milwaukee, they call them friends, people that are a part of the cult. They were normal, they wore jeans, they had campfires, they went to the movies, they played sports, like we couldn't play well, we could kind of play sports, but there was a time when mom said no to sports because it was competitive and something, but they were like, and I think they the Milwaukee friends, and they're great people. I like the Milwaukee people, they are the ones that loosened my parents up a little bit because they're like, What? Like they had all of their people from the church had a big chili kickoff, and it was a campfire, and then they were talking about going to Titanic, where you brought your ex-girlfriend.

SPEAKER_09 27:44

Oh, you whore, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

I know she made stuffed cookies here, but um anyways, I was calling Keith the whore, not the girlfriend. Um, but anyway, so I don't think it was weird everywhere, but our specific church that we belong to was very strict, very molesty, very talk to the elders, like so, and that's why it's good that you said the thing at the beginning, like, listen, this is my experience. It's not like that, because I I know there's people around that are like, hey, that's not my experience, like it's great. Like, we didn't we didn't get molested and told it was okay. Like, and so when I've talked to people that go to our church, they're like, I didn't know that was happening, yeah. Like, oh my god, and I believe it, I'm sure there are people that are like holy crap, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 28:33

And also those, you know, I think it's very important for myself to say this like just because you weren't harmed doesn't mean that harm didn't take place. And um if you're gonna agree that harm took place, then you should leave. Because if you're not leaving, yes, then you're backing up something. And and yeah, and you're letting those people know that are hurting people that you're gonna continue to support them. And it's very, very harmful to people who did experience sexual abuse, but the whole the whole thing is kind of just emotionally abusive and sexually abusive all the way around and manipulate manipulative.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Um a bad place to be for a woman and for a young girl growing up. And when you're a young girl growing up, if you aren't a girl and you're watching, um, it's already difficult in girl world in school. And then if you're wearing dresses and wearing buns and looking like a crackhead, not really a crackhead, opposite of a crackhead. Yeah, but if you're looking like different, yeah, completely different, and then you have all of the like, I don't want to say bullying, but like what is wrong with you?

SPEAKER_09 29:45

Right, because you can fly under the radar if you're if you're a male in this, you can go to school and you look the exact same. Nobody knows. I mean, you can take off to go to convention for four days, and nobody's like, you know, oh, they're camping.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Whereas like a Dela had to go to ski club wearing a dress. She had to ski in a dress, she could wear snowpants underneath, but she had to have dress on. She took it off.

SPEAKER_09 30:10

I mean, it's I had to tuck my dress in my snowpants, and like I have sensory issues. So, and maybe that's part of it. I don't know. My yeah, and so I would tuck my dress all down like in my snow pants. But I remember um my school was within walking distance when I was like in fourth grade, I think. And I didn't like the in Clintonville? Um Bear Creek.

SPEAKER_04 30:32

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_09 30:33

So I didn't like the way my skirt felt. Um, and I was I remember this. This is crazy that I remember this, but the skirt was like corduroy, and so it's already like a bad material. And I'm like, I am not putting this in my snowpants, so I wouldn't wear snowpants, but I was like laying on a swing on my belly and then like swinging, and it like just cut my knees. So my knees are just like bleeding, and they had to send me home for my mom to like fix my knees and I would do it the next day because I'm like, I am not, I'm not gonna wear snowpants, and they're like, what is going on? I don't understand. Like, I'm sure they're like, why does this kid keep coming? Or why does your why are you keeping sent to school in a dress and then you're um because it was winter time, right? And then you're cutting your knees. Did but did your mom have you wear like long warm pants underneath your dresses? No, we didn't do leggings under our dresses, and I didn't even do I wore sandals in the winter time because I was like so uncool that I'm like, I'm not gonna also wear like tennis shoes or back in the day there wasn't a lot of boots. Um, in when I was like in high school, they came out with um really cool like boots that had um fur that I got, but up until then, I would like wear sandals through the winter, standing at the end of my driveway, trying to like put my long jean skirt like over my toes to protect from the wind while I'm waiting for the bus. Because I'm like, I don't want to wear some lame shoes with a skirt, you know. Can you because I'm trying to just be the coolest version that I'm allowed to be within the constraints, and you know what?

SPEAKER_02 32:04

I was not cool, I wasn't. Um, okay, so let's talk about so meetings are yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

What did what did a meeting look like? It was a Sunday?

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Sunday, you could go twice on Sunday. Um you'd have your Sunday morning meetings, which is the fellowship meeting, yeah, and it was always at the elders, except for on union meeting.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

So who would be an elder? We shouldn't name people, just no, no, not names, but like how like they just in the religion for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Um the holiest that is definitely going to heaven first, correct? Yeah, if there was a lifeboat, they would be on it.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

So were did they used to be workers?

SPEAKER_09 32:44

No, no, workers are completely separate and they're above the elders, so it's like workers, then it's elders.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Um which sounds odd. The name it workers, elders, but like the elders host the workers all the time.

SPEAKER_09 32:59

The the elders would host the workers, but also the friends. So you could have workers at your house. Oh, I remember that. Workers are coming, hide the TV, but yeah, they're gonna be closer with the elders, if that makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

So fellowship in the morning, how long does that take?

SPEAKER_09 33:16

Well, it's scheduled for an hour, but our meeting had so many people that we literally and one guy, one elder went stop. Yeah, it would be like an hour and 50 minutes. And and I I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until I was like an adult, but I remember sitting in those meetings, and I also like the sniffling and um crying. People cried a lot, it was emotional. So I'd be listening to sniffling and crying, and it's just going on and on and on, and I'm and I have to sit still this whole time, and I'm just like my nerves were just shot, just sitting getting through a meeting, and I was just smelling what they were making for lunch, and I was hungry. Yeah, that too.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

She always had a great something in the oven baked beans or like yeah, a roast or something, and you just smell you smell it.

SPEAKER_04 34:07

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

So, did like kids were expected to go and behave?

SPEAKER_04 34:11

Yeah, oh yeah. You definitely take it.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

You just weren't I was naughty. You would get exiled or what? How would that work out? The Colton sitting in the car.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Well, you would get a spanking, you'd and then like it was almost like in correct me if I'm wrong, when you would hear like it was almost like a flex when they would spank their kid. Yeah, like it was like the harder you would get spanked, the better the other people would think you were as a parent. Yeah, well, when I so I So like it was like you could hear a kid getting spanked, and it was like possibly.

SPEAKER_09 34:41

Let me give you my perspective of a parent who um, because I did not want to spank my kids, but I felt pressure to spank my kids. So I had Elliot when I was still 18. We got married, we got got pregnant like right away. I had him, and when he was an infant, you know, if he was like wrestling around or whatever, I mean, you can't wrestle around as an infant, but I like for whatever reason, because I was brought up in this, I was like, okay, this baby needs to sit here, and I would take him out and I would um feel obligated to spank him, but like when he was wearing a diaper, I just wanted people to be at least be able to hear that I took him out and spanked him. And I it hurts me that I did that. I'm like, oh, it's okay. And finally, someone was like, You don't need to spank him. And I was like, I don't like thank God, you know, because I don't think that's a way to like correct a kid. It was a thing, yeah, it felt like pressure.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

So because if you weren't taking your kid out and disciplining him loudly, you would be getting looked at by like yeah, I've I felt like it was an expectation, right?

SPEAKER_09 35:45

Um, especially like when my kids got older and my kids sat in meetings pretty well. Um, but there's just no way if they weren't wearing a diaper that I would have been able to like take them out and uh yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

I so meetings would be at her house.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Who her parents had would meetings ever be hosted at your house?

SPEAKER_09 36:07

Yeah, Wednesday night meetings, so the general the general people who aren't elders, then you could have meeting in your house, but like you're not gonna have meeting in your house if you're married to somebody who's worldly. Oh, yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_09 36:21

Sometimes you would I'm trying to think because when I was married the first time, we didn't immediately have meeting in our house. So it's it's almost like you have to get to a certain like standing, maybe, and then they'll say, Oh, how would you like to have a meeting in your house?

SPEAKER_02 36:38

And then you would have it was like a round robin, but not fun. Yeah, so it just rotates week by week.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

So would it be like sort of like a service?

SPEAKER_09 36:46

Yeah, I know. Okay, like we would be sitting around like this, just like this. So the meetings that are gonna be um not in the elders' house, and I think elders aren't in the rotation of the Wednesday night meeting, which is a Bible study. So everyone reads the same chapter then. Um, and there's like a schedule. So you might study like the book of Romans or something, and then everybody speaks from the same chapter. So that's a Bible study. Sunday morning meetings.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Kind of like reflect your own perspective of it. Yep. Okay, and that's a Wednesday. And how long do those take?

SPEAKER_09 37:20

Um theoretically an hour, but depending on how many people after after, usually um there's gonna be a dish of candy.

SPEAKER_04 37:31

It was my favorite.

SPEAKER_09 37:33

It was my favorite heart, such a fat kid. We'd sit down food driven, and they'd be like, Oh, you could pass the candy around. Or sometimes the candy would be just and then if they didn't have it, you're like, Well, yeah, or if there was like peanuts in it. Like, yeah, peanuts, like, nobody wants a peanut. No one wants to sit all the way through meeting and get rid of the phone.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

We're playing for this Mary Lou. She's the sweetest woman alive. Yeah, it was not a dig on her because she would not do that, she would not put peanuts out. She's so sweet. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

So Sundays, the morning ones. What time would you arrive typically?

SPEAKER_09 38:09

Uh well, it starts at 10. You're gonna, if you're a good, if you're a good family, you're gonna show up at least 15 minutes early, and then you're silent until the meeting starts because you wanna and you just kind of scope.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

I would always scope out like outfits, yeah, and then be like, mm, that bitch, like Dala might have nail polish on. Yeah. She would be a rebel. Do you remember the meeting when Dela came out in jeans?

SPEAKER_04 38:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

And she mom had they had to do a meeting about that. She mom got screamed at because Dayla wouldn't come out. She's like, I'm not, I'm not putting on a skirt. I'm not doing this, I'm not doing this anymore. This is so stupid. This is so stupid. And mom goes, then stay in your room. And Delay walked out.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

How old was she at the time? You think?

SPEAKER_02 38:50

Maybe a freshman.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Maybe like old enough, sick of the sick of the sick of the bullshit. Like, she was like, she had it rough. Like, yeah, she because she, it was like, like I said, she remembers life. Malia was more obedient and she was professing and she went along with it. Dala was like, this is effing weird. This is not right. Very I was telling, and it made me emotional when I was telling you the story how protective Dayla was, because she's always been a protective sister. Even though her and I weren't always this close, like there was a time we just weren't close, but now we are gonna, but she's that protective instinct's always been in her. But when we had, you know, who babysit and they would come over to the house, she would hide Colton and I in that remember that little closet by my parents' fireplace in the living room. It's a little skinny door, and there was like a like a landing area and then a part up on top. She would hide Colton and I up there behind the jackets if they were coming to get us and like to do shit. She'd be like, get away, get away. She'd be leaning kids, get away from my brother and sister, get away.

SPEAKER_09 39:53

Oh my gosh, see, and that's like so.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

So, like it makes me emotional. Like when I like every time I would always remember like her, even when we'd be at their house and stuff would be happening to me. I remember her screaming at him, trying to get in. So, like, she was, and I feel more bad for her trauma because she I feel like she still carries it because like stuff's going on with Colton right now and his shitty ass wife. And and she like she was kind of getting emotional about it. She's like, I just feel so bad. I'm like, Well, it's not your fault. She was, I feel like he just has a really raw and like he's had such a shitty childhood in a life, and he doesn't know how a man is supposed to be. Like, and she's like, I want to help him so bad. Like, she was gonna drive to their house last night. And I told Colton, I said, Colton came to Cubby's baseball game, and I said, You think she thinks I'm the crazy sister? I'm not. It's it's Delay. You know it's Delay.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

I think you guys go toe-to-toe with each other pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

She has this, she she usually makes me quiet down. Yeah, there's something happening. That milk that milk is screaming for help. But um, anyways, uh, I don't know where we trailed up. Oh, Delay was a rebellion, but she carries a lot of the weight of what happened because she remembers a lot of what happened, and then she has this protective motherly big sister instinct that she feels like she failed us, and then she even feels bad about moving out when we were still home. You know, she's like, I shouldn't have left, like I should have stayed. And I'm like, why would you? Like, you're living your own life. But um, Dela walked out and she had jeans on and she sat down. And oh my god, uh the air was like sucked out of the room, right? Yeah, I couldn't hear you, I couldn't hear her. Um but okay, so I trailed off.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

So on Sunday, the two hour hour 50 minute plus the 15 minute leeway time in the beginning to prepare for for meeting, meeting, yeah, okay, services done. Then there's food.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

No.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Um you said something's bacon.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Well, for their own.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Oh, not for you.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

But then sometimes I mean you would have friends over, yeah, and there would be potlucks.

SPEAKER_09 42:11

So the yes, there's potlucks. Um sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_09 42:18

And sometimes there would be meals. So the I'm trying to think of how to describe because you're talking about the sexual abuse that you experienced. Yep. They would a lot of times have a potluck and we would all be there. And that's a lot of the times where that would happen. Yes. So you'd be exposed to this one specific male. Um, but also he he was in the meetings, and I remember um his dad was just as bad. Yeah. Um, like walking, so I can specifically remember, and this happened to me a lot of times, and it it makes me angry. Um, so I'd go, the meeting would done would get done. I would go out to the car and put my Bible case, a Bible case. You'd have a Bible in the handbook, but I'd put it in the car.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

You had a red Bible.

SPEAKER_09 43:06

And walk back in.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

I did. I always wanted it. You couldn't have red nail pause, but you had a red Bible. I'm like, okay. I remember your red Bible. I loved it.

SPEAKER_09 43:14

That's awesome. I love that you remember that. Um, but I would walk in and he would he would like block me and he'd make me hug him. And he'd hug me and he'd be like, just give into it, just give into it. And he would like hold you there, and you just had to take it until he let you go. And now I'm like, why did nobody see him doing that and be like, what where where is dad's? Where were the yeah? Can you imagine?

SPEAKER_02 43:39

Oh, you'd be like, get the fuck off my kid.

SPEAKER_09 43:41

Well, and I know that so it was spoke about like, don't leave people alone with him. Cause I knew about it.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

So people were aware, but they were like, let's just not tempt him and don't be alone with him.

SPEAKER_09 43:55

But then if he's hugging you and you just have to endure the hug, and you can't be like, somebody. Should have been like, get your hands off my daughter. You can't hug your she could go back in time and yes. Oh my gosh, yes. And I would just like take it and cringe, and then he'd be like, you know, he'd say stuff like, I know you like this, or shit like that. And he never like touched me aside from like forcing these hugs, but like it still makes me cringe because it's like you're doing this against my will, and I don't have a choice. And there's people here who could say, keep your hands off the girls. And there was a lot of females in our meeting, keep your hands off of them. Like, no one we know that you're a problem. All of you, all of you could have banded together and been like, we know this person's a problem and done something about it, and nobody did. And so if there's something that you want to reflect on, that's what you should reflect on.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Yeah, why don't you have that in your meeting in reflection time?

SPEAKER_09 44:50

Have a meeting about that instead of about Dale showing up in pants.

SPEAKER_05 44:53

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

But they I remember them. I remember a specific worker, and I think we talked about him, and you didn't like him, but I liked him. Yeah, I had a great experience with him. He was always up to pranks and he had a Pepsi can, and it he would and he gave it to me. And I think he liked me because he knew what happened to me. Oh. So I was his little buddy, yeah, and he was protective. So, like at conventions and stuff, he'd be like, Come on. And like, I never was creeped out by him, but he like I think had a soft spot for me. Can I? Oh, go ahead. He had his Pepsi can and he knew I was like a jokester. And he's like, Here, go ask, go ask whoever if they want a drink of your Pepsi. And it was a squirt gun. So I would hit the button and it would spray them. And so I was going around convention doing that. And my mom's like, Nikki, knock it off. And I said his name. I'm like, he gave it to me. He was one of the workers, like one of the higher up guys. And she's like, You can't do that. Just gave everyone what? But he was great. But he got into that guy's face, and I remember him swearing.

SPEAKER_09 45:53

And we were at the farm or convention lost.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

Yeah. And I was just, it wasn't convention time, but I was staying at I loved being at the farm. And um, I was there hanging out with her kids, and he I did that too. It was great.

SPEAKER_09 46:08

And now I'm like, thank God, nobody but I think her.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

I assume she was aware and she was protective over her kids, her girls, because she had a lot of girls, yep, and us, and she's like, guys, come in here, come out. You know what I mean? Like always eyes on everybody because she was adopted.

SPEAKER_09 46:26

Can I I just want to go back to the thing about this worker that I had a problem with because I want to tell you why I had a problem with him.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Oh, he wasn't a perv, was he? No. Okay, good. Because he was not a perv to me. Yeah, no. Maybe it wasn't his type.

SPEAKER_09 46:38

It was because um I had gotten married right after I turned 18. And um, that was right at the time when like 9-11 happened. And so we were at convention, and I don't I didn't know I was pregnant already, but I knew that we were probably gonna be pregnant. And he was like, Well, you know, my ex-husband, Jason, he's going, he's going to war for sure. He's going to war for sure. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm like gonna be pregnant, he can't like go off to war. First of all, they don't even believe in going to war in this religion anyway. You have to be like a conscientious objector or whatever, but that's why, because I was like, you know.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Well, I think I like him for that.

SPEAKER_09 47:19

Yeah, yeah, looking back on it.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Now that I've reflected, I'm like, oh, that's why you didn't like him, is because yeah, but he seemed like a realist. Like, well, yeah, we're going to war. Everyone thought there was gonna be a draft.

SPEAKER_06 47:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

But I can see why you went like that. But yeah, my experience with him, I he was like my favorite worker.

SPEAKER_09 47:37

Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

And I'm like often wonder where because I think he fell away.

SPEAKER_09 47:41

Uh he left the work and he married, I think, another ex-worker. And when they have kids, are they still in? I don't know. That's that that's the extent that I know.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Okay, we should look it. We should look him up and have him on here. Okay, so convention.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

Oh, wait.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Wait, okay, wait.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

We're not even through Sunday yet.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

I know we have so many like side side quests.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

This is now like the fourth or fifth time that I'm trying to like go ahead, Keith.

SPEAKER_09 48:12

Ask a question.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

This is what banter is all about. Yeah, yeah. Like, this is why we love it. That's and it's so fun.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

So it's a banter.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

I just want to know. Okay, so you said twice on Sundays you can have meetings.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Yeah. We would go twice.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

You have to go? Is it expected?

SPEAKER_09 48:30

Oh, yeah. You're yeah, okay. I mean, it's an it's unwritten. All these they say they don't have rules, but they have all these unwritten expectations.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

It's like baseball.

SPEAKER_09 48:38

So the second meeting on Sunday is a gossip for much worse. The second meeting on Sundays is a gospel meeting, and that's where the workers speak. So it'll be like two warehouse. Yeah, at a warehouse or a library or a funeral home or wherever they can.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

Would it would it ever be at the same place that you were at for a meeting?

SPEAKER_02 48:59

No, because it's it's like we would go to Appleton. Yep. Okay, and it would be a ton of people.

SPEAKER_09 49:04

And our our Sunday morning meeting was in Manawa. Uh-huh. So you live in the area, and then you go to a specific meeting, and then the gospel meetings are like in a bigger city like Appleton, and so it'll be all the meetings in the area that all gather together for the gospel meeting.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Okay. And would that be basically right after? Like what time of the day is that?

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Uh usually like 3 p.m., I think.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

So you got like you get to eat some lunch. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Not the lunch you smell during meeting. Okay. Not always.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

And um was it the same sort of I don't know, outline, but the except the workers doing it?

SPEAKER_09 49:47

No, because they're so the workers would pray. Um, so it's usually like the morning meeting is uh you sing a hymn, there's prayer time, you sing another hymn, there's testimony time. Um, then it's the emblems, you sing a hymn, that's the end. The gospel meeting, it's uh sing a hymn, a worker will pray. Sing another hymn, one worker will speak. I think it's another hymn, another worker speaks, and then I think usually they close it out with a prayer.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

Is it like a sermon? Like when you say they speaks, yeah. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 50:21

Um is the man who molested is he in jail?

SPEAKER_02 50:28

No, he was actually a teacher somewhere locally. I'm sorry, what? Seriously? Yep. And I called, I called the school, and no, I don't think she's she's gonna have to edit this out. I don't give a shit. I don't give a shit. Well, there's no names, but holy crap. In um, but it's tough. It's a tough, and and I don't blame the school. I'm not gonna say the school's name, not in this county. I'll say that. Not in Shano County, but very close by. Um, when I found out, I think from you that he was a teacher there.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

You called. I called.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

I was I was fucking livid. I was so pissed and I was so re-mad at my parents because I'm like, this is what happens when nothing gets done, is it slips through the cracks and then they get into a school system where they're around children or girls. Um, he wasn't like, I don't want to say he wasn't into small kids because I was like four. You know what I mean? But like he was like, whatever.

SPEAKER_09 51:27

I think he's more of an opportunist. Yeah, he's that's a good way of putting it predatory.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

He's a superb easily, he's um very like wants to be masculine and overpowering. It was his thing because the game he would make me play is cat and mouse, and I was the mouse, and he was the cat. Was like so when I hear that game yet, it gives me goosebumps because he would I would hide and I would be legit terrified. Like the show Apex we just watched. I felt like her, like as a little kid, like trying to get away, and then he would be the cat and always get me.

SPEAKER_09 51:56

And this guy, I mean, this is a huge yeah, like you're not you are not overpowered. I don't know. I just know that he was bigger than anybody. You're not you're not getting away from him if he doesn't want you to get away from him.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

So I was livid, I was like re-mad about it. My sisters, both of them called the school. My sister wrote like an official letter of like the experiences, and she's like, as a professional, I'm a professor, I know like you, there's guidelines like because there's no record of it happening. And so they're like, hey, he's like, I can't the superintendent was amazing. He's like, I have daughters. This really, I'm like, if all you can do with it is just have it in your pocket, and if he wants to like coach volleyball, pick someone else. If he wants to, you know what I mean, like keep an eye on him. Um, but then like when I talk to certain people, and one was a police officer, I was telling her about it. She's like, Oh, he's such a great guy. I wanted, I wanted to punch her. And I'm like, oh yeah, I'm making this shit up. She's like oh, he's uh the kids love him, he's such a great guy. He's military. I don't think he would have passed his background. Malia's like, yeah, he would pass his background. Because everyone covered in her as a cop for saying that to me, I will never respect her again. Because I'm like, you're legit in this line of work, and then you're gonna like because I gave her heads up because she has a connection to the area, and she was just kind of like, Oh, everybody loves him. And I think he was like secret service, like some lie he probably told people. But Malia's like, military can only look up stuff that's on your record, not only that, but everyone covered for him.

SPEAKER_09 53:32

Everyone covered for him. Child molesters going in, like, yeah, I've molested a lot of children, they they lie about it.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

But her as a female and in law enforcement, and like her response to that when I was like, hey, he shouldn't be in the school system. Like, long story short, he's gone now. He's not there. Maybe they put pressure on him to get him out. Who knows? I don't know what happened, but it happened probably within a year after the school had the heads up about it. But the they can like consulted with their attorneys, they're like, we legally can't just take hearsay. And the the superintendent was amazing. He's like, I believe what you're saying. I'm not saying I don't believe that, but as a legal standpoint, we can't just be like, hey, we're firing you, you know what I mean? Because of like allegations. I'm like, yeah, but if it got out, I'm pretty sure the pressure would be on. You know what I mean? If I was like, hey, you know who's in your school system right now? This is what happened to me from this guy and how many other women, tons, you know what I mean? Like that could come forth. But um, he's gone now. Like he packed up in the middle of the night. Pretty sure he bought his bride too. We assume. Can we say that, or is that not right? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Why are you looking at me? Like I'm the legal team.

SPEAKER_05 54:40

Real her end, real or in, real or in.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

There is no, there is no reeling in sometimes. You just roll with it.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

Um, that was that's some that's another topic, but like that stresses me out. It stressed, it stressed all of us out.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

I don't feel good.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 55:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Um, the statute of limitations was opposite that why so there is a statue of limitations, and I was starting to write a book called 32.

SPEAKER_09 55:10

You are?

SPEAKER_02 55:11

It's it I I didn't anymore because I'm 41. Finish it. It's because you're you have statute of limitations, I think, for sexual assault as a child up until the age of 32, because it's your mindset in like getting out of the situation and growing up and realizing this shit shouldn't have happened to me. So I started writing it and it was called 32. Um, so don't steal my book idea. Okay, pause. Um, and it was, and maybe I still will. And like I have a lot of unfinished books because I get sick of my own writing. I'm like, ugh, you know what I mean? And then I move on. But um, it was about like gonna go toe-to-toe with him and take him down when I was 32. But I was like, I don't know if I want to relive it. Can we pause? Oh, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

Are you sure that there's a statue of limitations?

SPEAKER_02 56:08

I I think so. I don't know if there is anymore.

SPEAKER_00 56:10

I don't think there is with sexual assault or homicide.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

That's Google. You're a cop as a cop, I think.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

Well, she was so like determined of what she I'm like, maybe something slipped through the cracks. I don't know about.

SPEAKER_02 56:24

I think there is something with look up 32. There's something with 32 in Wisconsin, or is it a different state? I don't, but I imagine she does. I don't know, I don't even know if his mom or anybody knows, which is an amazing thing because I feel like maybe pressure was on him. Yeah, that might be because he got up and left in the middle of the night. But sadly he's married and has kids. I'm sorry, what happened?

SPEAKER_08 57:01

I just feel sad that you like don't be sad for me.

SPEAKER_02 57:07

Look at me. I'm fine.

SPEAKER_08 57:10

Just the way you said that I was like, you were like like you missed your opportunity to do anything about what happened to you, and that's like makes me really sad for you. Don't be sad. Like, I mean like I'm just picturing like that little girl, you know, and not and like just not being able to do anything. It's really terrible.

SPEAKER_02 57:35

I had um I've processed this a lot, and I know I haven't been to therapy, but like I really have, and I think being I like I realized when I was a cop in Waiwega, I had the like epiphany, like, this is why I'm here, is because like when I would be on sexual assault cases, I and in my 32 book, it says I was fighting for the I would see the little girl, like my little girl, like me sitting there, and then I had a reoccurring dream of me telling her it's okay. Like I was interviewing her. I'm like, you know, this wasn't your fault, right? You know, like you couldn't have beat him, like he was a faster cat than you. You know what I mean? Like, and I was like having this conversation, and then it was like it all came together like I don't know, like I don't know why I'm getting emotional now, like why I was like super competitive or like wanting to be stronger than a man, or you know what I mean? Like, or being a tomboy is like it all makes sense now. Like looking back, I was like, that was all a product of that. Don't don't be weird. It was all a product of that, and I'm like really good at like I've seriously I've like I mean it that I processed it, and then I think the hardest time was when Journey turned four. And it it hit me and I didn't didn't even see it coming. And that's what scares me is when it when trauma comes, you aren't prepared. Yeah, you don't even know what's gonna come. We were sitting at Bear Lake and we had a little cake for her. It was me and my mom, Sawyer and Journey. And like I realized when she was staying in her little swimsuit, I'm like, oh my god. Like I had to like walk to the bathroom and I just started crying, like, what is happening to me? Because I'm not an emotional person, it's not a flex, it's just not who I am. I always have to say that because I feel like it's a flex. Um, and so I like went to the bathroom and I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with me? Like, what is going on? And then I'm like, oh my God, she's four. Like, that's when I changed. So I was thinking like her whole life, she could be a completely different person, and you don't know what way it's gonna go. So I have like it kind of went like my trauma, how I handled it was different than you. And I didn't respect myself with men. I didn't um like I didn't want to be married, I didn't want to be in love, I wanted loveless relationships, so I didn't get hurt or I don't know, like how to explain it.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Didn't want to be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_02 59:58

He he had to make me, yes, still he'll be you can be vulnerable. And I think it's like, and I don't even care if my dad hears this because he should hear it, is because I was such a daddy's girl and I was so close to him. And I remember telling my mom when it happened she was putting on sinful red nylons on her body. And I remember um telling her about it and then thinking I was safe because my dad picked me up and he had me on his lap and we were driving to their house. And I'm like, my dad's gonna kill him. Like, I remember because my dad was the biggest guy in my world and the strongest man in my world, and he didn't like and I would go back and I would go back and I would go back and I'd go back and it would happen, it would happen, it would happen. And then I was like, like, do they not believe me? And then it was like, this is so gay. I didn't expect this. This is dumb. This is a dumb time. Um, I remember thinking because I remember Ruthane saying I was a storyteller, like, oh, she's a storyteller, and I was a storyteller because I had a huge imagination, so I was always like kind of like Nash telling stories, like and then da da da. But Nash is very realistic. I would be a little bit of a storyteller, but fuck you. How is a kid gonna make up shit like that? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_09 1:01:14

I can't make stuff stuff if you don't have a frame of reference.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:18

But like that's not in like, and I will say my mom believed me. Like, she was never like Nikki that like they they did believe me, my dad did believe me, but they also didn't handle it. And and then when you don't handle situations like that, they end up being school teachers when you have elders who was in the same fucking cult handling shit, not handling it. So I have so much rage towards my parents about it, and I have like, I know it doesn't sound like it right now, but I've forgiven them because I had to, because it's more exhausting for me to hate them for what they allowed to continue to happen. Or like one time I was in police school, it was freaking weird. I was outside smoking a cigarette at my parents' house, waiting to pick up the kids because they would watch Sawyer and Journey, and my dad's like, Someone's on the phone for you. And I'm like, What? Had the house phone, handed it to me, and it was him. He's like, Hey, here you're in cop school. And I'm like, fuck you. And I hung up. I'm like, why would you do that? He's like, You wanted to talk to you. I'm like, Do you think I don't remember? Like, I don't know how many times I had to ask my parents, I'm like, Do you think I don't remember what happened? And they don't say anything. It's so bizarre to me. And then, and then, and then what really trips my trigger is when my mom will say, Oh, if anyone ever did that to my kids, and Dala said one time, they fucking did. They did. And not to mention what happened to Dela with somebody else, like so bad that I don't even know what happened to her because she can't even talk about it. Like, I don't know. And then they went to Colorado to visit the guy, and Dela's like, I all I remember is Dela saying, like, how can you do that? Like, you know what he did to me. Like, and you're going to Colorado by him because it's a free fucking trip. So it's like I have a lot of anger towards my parents, and but then I also now like I know it doesn't seem like I'm over it. I I know it doesn't right now, but I really am. Like, I'm okay. I can usually sit and talk about it and not like dig it up, but like I understand who I was and all the shitty things I've done in my life. It's not an excuse, but I know that it's like when you don't go to therapy and you don't take care of it, you're gonna become a kind of a shitty person, like dealing with it or navigating how to like figure out like, oh, that's wrong, that's wrong. Like, you want to find a good guy that's safe, and like it's okay to be vulnerable. But like, I didn't want that like until he came along. Like, I was like, nope, no, thank you. Um, but we're talking about you and your shitty life with a cult, but um yeah, that was that was weird, but um I I know the reason I became a cop was because I wanted to help that uh little girl in me a hundred percent. I know that because I had recurring dreams about it, and I know I did a really good job when I was a cop, and I would be on sexual assault cases because it's like you can't unremember that, and you know how important each step of the way is. So that's why Catherine, who I'm really good friends with, she's always like, she loved when I had a case like that, because she she didn't she doesn't know this part of it, but she's like, You always did such a good job and you really cared. And I'm like, Yeah, bitch, because I was there, you know what I mean? Because I know how important it is, and it's not gonna take it away, but like if he was fucking charged, it would have felt so much better.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

Yeah, and Catherine's not a bitch, but no, she's not a bitch, she's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:44

You liked Catherine. Is the statue of limitations 32? Did anyone Google that?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:48

I I did, so I just briefly looked over, so don't quote me. Good investigation, but um so first degree against a minor, it there's no limitations, but then there becomes a little bit of some gray areas, depending on if the uh the um suspect is a minor as well. So where did it I have no idea where you got that number from? I didn't see that in my mystery.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:18

Maybe it was maybe it was when I was like gonna go. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20

I thought it was 32, but it might be another state. So if you Google something, like a lot oftentimes you have to be a lot of states have different laws.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:33

Okay, so what else, Cammy? Should we ask Amber? How did you get out?

SPEAKER_09 1:05:39

Well, I got a divorce, and that's pretty frowned upon. Um, and without getting too much into it, um when you're in a situation that you want to get out of and it's against the religion, um Of all, it took a lot of courage and years of being in something that was not healthy. Um, and I had children as well, um, to get up the courage to leave because I didn't want to tell my dad, like um, because I knew he would be disappointed in me. And I never like I just never wanted to let my dad down. Um, and it's hard to explain situations like that to anybody who's not in them. Um, and I had spent my whole my whole um life shutting down my own instincts. And um, you know, it's like you grow up in this, and if you're female, you get married, you have kids, you stay home with the kids, you listen to your husband, you do what your husband says. And if you get to a point um where you just can't take that anymore, um then it's a bigger problem for you because you have to figure out the courage to tell your my my parents was the big one for me, especially my dad. Um, and then navigate um getting a divorce um when you have no education, which they they don't really uh it's it's different now, but back in my day it wasn't back in my day. Um, females didn't really do college or anything. So I had like no real means of income. So I really essentially um took my kids. Um, I worked weekends and went to school while they were in school. And I had to start all over because I had to get a career, I had to be able to like afford all of this. Um, and I a lot of people, you know, in there were like, well, if you need to get a divorce, just make sure you keep bringing the kids to the meeting, like they need this. Um, I got a lot of like um, this is gonna be bad for the kids. How do you think the kids are gonna turn out coming from a broken family? Which I really hate that term because you're not broken. It's just it's just a different family. But anyway, um I lost my train of thought. What was I saying?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

Um, how'd you get out?

SPEAKER_09 1:08:15

Oh yeah, so I um I was still trying to get them to go to meeting, um, or I was still trying to get them to meeting so they wouldn't like not get to heaven because of like a choice that I made to get out of this relationship. Um, but when I would go there, it was just constantly like, you need to stay with him. Um, you don't want to do this to your family, you don't want to do this to your kids, you know. And essentially it was like your reward will be greater in heaven if you can just endure what you're going through and like stick with it. And there was a very distinct moment where I was like, okay, let's say like God is my dad, and I'm not a dad, but I'm a mom.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:02

And there's just no way that I want my kids to stay in something that makes them feel like how I'm feeling. And I just don't think that this is what like whatever God is, he does not want this for me, and he does not want this for my kids because there's just no way that this turns out well if I continue in it, or like I I just couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:26

I I really was like on the verge of like having a nervous breakdown. I'm like, I just I can't, I can't be in this any longer. I have to like this is it. And then once I realized all that, um, because you're like very brainwashed, like Yeah, I can't even imagine like the term inner turmoil. Yeah, like if I die in a car crash today and I'm you know wearing something that I'm not supposed to be, like I'm going straight to hell, you know. So like to to dial back that brainwashing of like um this is the only way, and you're nothing without this. Took it took a lot of just um really, I was in survival mode for a lot of years of just um getting getting my schooling, making sure my kids were okay. But once I was out of it, I was just like, I don't, I don't care like what I don't care how poor I have to be, I don't care what I have to do. I I'm not going back to that.

SPEAKER_08 1:10:25

And I'm gonna make sure that my kids are okay. And and they are, they're they're all like they have beautiful lives and they're like amazing people.

SPEAKER_09 1:10:35

And they also understand like they understand um they understand the difference between um well I guess they just understand why I maybe I had to get out or maybe they don't even understand why, but they they I don't even want to say they forgive me.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:00

They're supportive. Yes, they seem supportive, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:11:04

So everyone turned out okay and including you, yeah. Um it's just it was just a matter of like getting the courage to voice it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:15

Can we talk about your job that you do and how ironic that is?

SPEAKER_09 1:11:19

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:20

Because it's kind of badass.

SPEAKER_09 1:11:23

The job that I'm in now? Sure. Um let's you don't want to? I don't I don't think I should. Um I'm in corrections, I guess that's okay too.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:34

We'll just leave it a blanket, yeah. So she's in corrections. Yeah, it's badass, period. Very worldly of you.

SPEAKER_09 1:11:44

Yeah, especially if you'd be working outside the home.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:47

Right. In a male-dominated profession.

SPEAKER_08 1:11:50

And the worst part, my uniform requires pants. Oh no, you can't wear a skirt. No, they don't allow it.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:00

Oh man, this is a lot of bullshit in a good way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:05

Did you did you think that you were gonna get emotional? Have a therapy session.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:10

Fuck no, no, it's probably good for you though. I don't know about that, but yeah, probably good. Thanks. So you didn't um you guys get a room. Yeah, what uh I had a lookup, I think we did together too the definition of a cult. Because I'm like, is it a cult? And it is a definition by definition, yeah. Um at least our version that we had. You know what I mean? Like again, back to other places, it might not have been that way. But like our the expectations from our church that we went to.

SPEAKER_09 1:12:50

I think it's I think the world everywhere, yeah. I think you could do some more research on your own, but I I feel very confident in saying uh it's kind of very similar. Uh, I think maybe our specific meeting was a little bit more conservative than maybe some other places, but also like when I'm remembering back, um at least in my family, we would consider those people who were playing sports and whatnot, they were just more worldly.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:19

Maybe like how Miriam described the Yamish community and different tiers of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:27

So what does convention look like?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:30

Like a concentration camp. Um, come on, let's talk about the bunks and all that stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:36

Okay, where was it? Where would it, where would you go?

SPEAKER_09 1:13:39

Marion, Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:41

Okay. So everyone.

SPEAKER_09 1:13:43

But there, but oh, so there's um Canada had one. There's conventions everywhere, but um, there's like, I guess we could say like um, well, it would be like a region, but they called it a field.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:57

So you're so you're so informative on this stuff. It'd be the must have been a spanking when this shit went on.

SPEAKER_09 1:14:05

Um, let's see. So there's three Wisconsin, it's Wisconsin Dells, Menominee, and Marion. And then you kind of go to whichever one's closest to where you live. That's your home convention. But then um if you're a really good, if you're if you're a really good truther, then you go to then you go to more than one convention. So you'd get to um like the Dells for the weekend.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:28

I never went to that one, I don't think. Maybe do you remember?

SPEAKER_09 1:14:32

I don't know if you were ever there. I ran as a like as a teenager. It's gonna be more like if you're a teenager and you have a driver's license, you can drive there and you can go for the weekend. Cause like she said, they have bunks there. Um, some people will bring like their campers. Um you can drive back and forth, I guess. I don't know if it was it feels like it was frowned upon, and it was more like, oh, you just want to stay on the convention grounds and you know be amongst the people the whole time.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:00

I'm just cringing at all of this because it's like that's exactly how many people would be there. Oh god, hundreds, hundreds, yeah. I I can't tell you like they would have two different eating sessions and you'd have chores there, like a big barn that would open up the gates and run. Remember that? Oh god, yes, yes, I can still smell the multima meal and the hot chocolate that was gorging hot, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:24

Boiling.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:25

You're like that was the best part of I of course I remember the food. Yeah, it was like so food driven.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:32

So so it's in a tent. They have buildings now, but when I first started, um, they had tents or no, it was in Marion was in a barn. Okay, Marion was in the uh like machine shed, or what they call it. Canada had um tents, huge tents. Um I was to I was at Canada's.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:51

We went there a few times.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:52

So convention is four days. Um, but usually you'd go Wednesday night and there'd be a Wednesday night meeting. Um, and then thir Thursday through Sunday, um, it would be a meeting from 10 to noon, a meal. Well, no, first breakfast is at 6. Breakfast is at 6. Um, so you have breakfast, then you have some time to like prepare prepare in the morning for the meeting. Um, you could take a cold shower. Showers are always freezing, um, and then you would kind of get ready for meeting. Um, starts at 10, so you're gonna be in the tent for sure by 9:45. Everything's quiet again. It's a two-hour meeting. Um, you go to lunch, then you can do if you're an adult, you might take a nap or just mingle with other people. You could walk, but not with a man alone. Well, if you're going on a walk because you're interested, you could go on a walk with like how old were you when you got out?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:47

Um, well, when my parents got out, they stopped. Uh like eighth grade.

SPEAKER_09 1:16:53

Okay. So if you're a teenager, um, going on a walk with someone freshman year, is like um you might like date them or be interested in them. So you it was it was a big deal to be asked on a walk at convention.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:07

No one asked me. Um was a loser. I was too young.

SPEAKER_09 1:17:14

Let's say I think, yeah, that that's probably more accurate.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:18

Um she's kind anyway.

SPEAKER_09 1:17:21

So you have dinner, then uh our lunch, another meeting from 2 to 4, or 2:30 to 4:30, maybe, and then there's another meal. So they're feeding you the whole time you're there. Um, you can wait tables. That was like the most coveted like position. Um, but there's other jobs you could do, like dishes and stuff like that. Um, and then the third meeting is an hour, and then after that is night lunch. That's what she's talking about, the hot chocolate. That was the best one. It would be like um cookies, cookies, egg salad sandwiches. Oh, yeah, those were good. Yes, like yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:59

So some of the food was good.

SPEAKER_09 1:18:00

Yeah, the food was good.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:01

It was on a farm, it was like farm food.

SPEAKER_09 1:18:03

Yeah, stew.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:04

Yeah, the stew was good.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:09

So it's got yeah, the stew was good.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:12

I think we're gonna have to have a part two. Yeah, because this is already at what time? We're uh uh out 20. Yeah, yeah. Because I don't even think we've really dug deep.

SPEAKER_09 1:18:24

Yeah, because there's there's a whole um what do you call it? A scandal that happened, and in the last three years, a a huge amount of sexual abuse within this group came out.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:41

Um, and that's really where I so when that happened, it like Are you talking about the worker scandal or like the like all of the molestation in it?

SPEAKER_09 1:18:54

It started with that one worker and then it just like ballooned to where there was like an FBI hotline. There's a FBI hotline for this. For this, yeah, they shut it down now, but it was it was um, it was available for like over two years. Um, but that's really where I was like, first of all, I had to go to therapy for another year to for like religious trauma because I was so like, this is what my instincts told me about all of this, all of this time, and people were like, no, you're wrong. And I was just like, okay, so I'm um I finally will say it's bullshit, it's a cult. Um and that took you that took therapy, yeah. Where like a lot of it, where I was just like, like somebody punched me in the gut because I'm like, I have been saying this and I've been told that I'm wrong. And um, and so it was like, okay, well, those are your beliefs, and I would be very respectful of everyone's beliefs, but I wasn't gonna be part of it because I left because of divorce or whatever when this all came out. I'm like, this is what you've been saying, this is what I've been saying and feeling, and was told to shut up. Yeah, so it felt good, but it also felt icky because you were there.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:12

Yeah, like you had to sort of relive it a little. Yes, also big time, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:16

You're validated, and then the the thing exactly, exactly, and then you know the names and the faces that it's happened to, so it's like I know, like so that the one of the workers. How old was his wife? Is his wife? Can we talk about that? I don't know what you're talking about. Um beep.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:35

Oh, his trial's coming up.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:37

Uh this oh no, we can talk about him because his trial it's open, right? Or we shouldn't talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:42

I don't know if we should again not the legal team. Don't look at me.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:47

Anyways, just don't mention names. So there's a worker that has a trial coming up.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:52

So he was in the work and um he was uh attractive, so it was like, oh, this like young worker, he's so attractive. And then it was I was he's older than I am, so I but I you weren't his type, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:09

Because you were he liked little kids, right?

SPEAKER_09 1:21:13

I don't know. I don't know the specifics.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:16

Um but I like that you say opportunist because it's probably the same for me.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:19

Yeah, so he was a predator, but he was young and attractive and whatever. So I think it looked less creepy when it came out like years later.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:30

Predator in a three-piece clean suit, right? Always looked well put together, yep, but predator. And if Ted Bundy was in this era, he's a Ted Bundy.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:41

There you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:42

Minus the murder.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:43

Okay, so Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy of the cult. Um, but you're right. There was allegations of him having done stuff, I think, to more like teenage girls, but um, you know, again, swept under the rug, and people are like, oh no, like not him. And it's like, okay, why does it have to be some creepy uh and I would say like the so some of the sexual predators in the meetings that were called out were from like lower income families, they look like your average like pedophile that you would see. Those people would be like, oh, we could talk openly about them, but then there's this other whole group of like just there's just so there's so much sexual abuse that it's like, oh well, they're wealthy or they're you know higher up. We're not gonna talk about that, we're just gonna bring that to the workers, and then the workers can sort it out. And then guess what? The workers don't sort it out, they move these um, well, at least the workers who were molesting people, they would move them to a different field, and then they're exposing them to these other families. Um, it's just yeah, I could go on. I mean, I could literally talk for like seven hours about this just the sexual abuse stuff that happened.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:02

So there is an investigation into this group? Yeah, there's a lot of them now, and it's still like it's there's a trial coming up. Um is the sexual abuse still going on? Probably. Well, I mean, is like the organization or the the religion, the cult, is it still active? Very active.

SPEAKER_09 1:23:19

It's active. There's a lot of people that left, and there's a lot of people that stay. Um, it's changed though. Like for a while they weren't letting like the so if you had um what did they call it? Like um, you know, oh geez, I can't think of the word. If you have allegations that are like credible allegations, then you know you can't be in the meeting for a period of time. So for a while, but weren't they letting pedophiles come? Yeah, that's that was around children. Yeah, like they would recruit them from prison, bring them in the meetings, and then expect you to bring your kids to the meetings, even though there's pedophiles.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:00

Like I get it, Jesus loves everybody, but like I am sorry, Jesus, they're not gonna be around my kids, right? Right, and you're not you have your own meetings with these guys, but they should not be in a room with a bunch of kids.

SPEAKER_09 1:24:10

And it would be the expectation that you still continue to go to the meeting even if the pedophiles are there, yes, out of prison, correct, which violates their parole, legal team here.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:22

Oh, well, but not for religio religious reasons.

SPEAKER_09 1:24:25

There's a there's a special secret like loophole. Uh you can get um someone in the group to be your chaperone, and these chaperones think that um they're not like they've been forgiven by God and they've worked out their stuff with the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:40

Okay, maybe. Who are we to say that's not true? But get the fuck away from my kids.

SPEAKER_09 1:24:44

Right. They shouldn't be in the meetings, you shouldn't be having your kids sit on their lap. Nope. None of that. Like they can listen, they can just listen to the meeting.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:54

Basically, don't expose it's a it's a pedophile's dream, is what what that religion was.

SPEAKER_09 1:25:00

And convention for pedophile's dream. Because you're in a bunk with kids that you don't know, you can take advantage of them. There's so many stories of kids that were molested at convention and they don't even know who their abuser is because there was so many. It's someone sleeping on a bunk next to them.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:16

And that if they when I say when you said what does it look like, when I say concentration, I'm not like obviously it's sad, concentration camps, sad. But like the bunk situation is very concentrant, concentration camp vibe. Like now, like when Malia and I dissected what happened, she's like, Oh my god, all move in to eat, all move, kind of like school though, too, right? Like the buzzers go off and you just kind of move like cattle everywhere. But like the bunking situation, it was like you walked in a barn, it's not it wasn't like a barn barn, but like a huge barn lake, yeah, and it was bunks just like where people slept. Yep.

SPEAKER_09 1:25:56

And um you are taught that you can trust everyone, you can trust the workers, you can trust anybody who's in here. So as a kid, or even uh just in general, just in general, because there was sex abuse happening. Yep, they I remember adults too. You're like, I'm not gonna question this. I I don't have to be worried about these people, they're gonna be people.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:17

I remember my parents never being worried about us going and playing because it was all like all friends.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:24

Yeah, like I don't feel good, really.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:26

Yeah, so it's like if you that's a good reaction, that's a good healthy, I'm fucking happy that I married you. Like that's normal.

SPEAKER_09 1:26:33

Like if you're a sicko, this is the group to join because you're gonna have unlimited access to people's kids. And all you gotta do is say, Oh, I I, you know, I love God, I've been, you know, they don't they don't use the terms like saved or whatever, but um, if you've professed or shown interest or you're like coming to the means or whatever, um they're gonna give you access to your kids. And if you're if you're a mom and you're like, dang, my alarm bells are going off. I don't want to do this. The workers coerce you and guilt trip you and make you feel bad about having a problem with people who are convicted pedophiles being around your kids.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:12

Piggybacking on that is why it was so hard for me to find a religion that I was felt safe with. And I think it's and I I've said this because Pastor Sorley was a detective and I worked with him and I trust him literally with my life that I was like, I can trust him with my kids. Like, do I ever trust someone 100%? No, I don't. Like, I trust Keith, but I mean like with my kids. But even before I knew who Jordan was, I asked questions to Lisa. I'm like, is he like okay? Because like, not in a bad way, but like, cause he's hanging out with Nox and Nash, do you know what I mean? Like, I've I had this like, it's not gonna go away. Because you were all like, I was taught that religion was a safe place and it was not my safe place. So then it's like now I have to trust someone in a room with my kids, teaching them about Jesus. This or as he teased, you know what I mean? Like, I trust Jordan, but like takes a lot.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:04

Takes a lot. And it's like, I get why you're like, I don't want religion. I believe like you're you're spiritual. You believe in a higher, like, I do not fault you from that. Um, I don't know if I would have gone to church ever again a day in my life if it wasn't for Knox, right? Like, I don't think I would have ever, um, just because of all of everything we talked about, and like how every the thought of being like a Christian was like bad, like in my mind.

SPEAKER_09 1:28:37

Like I think it's um, at least for me, and that's probably some love for you, is like having somebody come in and be like, this is what you need to do to get to heaven. Like, no, I I can work out like first of all, I can trust my own instinct. And if I had listened to it, I'd be fine. And I am listening to it now, and it's like I can be spiritual and I can be a really good person, I can um, you know, take care of the earth and all these things without somebody, especially not a man, telling me this is how you have to do it. And from my perspective, religion was um created to control people, and it's especially to control women, because if we all trusted our instincts and acted on them, a lot of shit wouldn't happen. Yes, women have a strong intuition, yeah, and I think men know that, so they need to try to control us, however, which way, and there's good ones, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:33

There is you have a you have a good one, I have a good one. Um, and I think that's why I like Pastor Sorley, is because he's his it's not your typical religion, and he's a Lutheran, but like it's very love everybody, and it you love everybody, I don't care who you are, what you are, and that's the kind of people that should be pastors and things like that. And I and I know other Lutheran denominations don't like that, but also the congregation there is very much like that too. So, like Yeah, and and our congregation's old. So, like walking in, I was like nervous because I was like, oh boy, from what our upbringing was. And I'm like, oh no, they're all very like it's a very good church, it is, and it's it's it's inclusive, it sounds like which is 100%, usually religion, he's very liberal, it's he's very liberal pastor, so like it's he's not um which I think is a very good thing in religion, I think it's a good balance because religion's so like at least our upbringing is very conservative, and I I am more conservative, but I think in a religion outlook, it's good to have a longer.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:48

I think I think I know what you're getting at, but I think um regardless of like political views or labels, Keith is just very much like loves everybody, yeah, genuinely loves everybody, gives everyone grace, and I think in that makes it pure, yeah, and honest, and like you're like, this is this is how I should be. Yeah, it's very, very empowering, like of like your sense of religion and as a whole. Like you feel like, oh even your parents comment on it. I feel good. This is what it's supposed to be. Yeah, you know, his parents everybody love everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:25

His parents came from uh a church, and they're like, he's just it's different with him. Like he's very like well, this is what it's really supposed to be about. But we'll have to have Amber back. I know for a fact we're gonna have to have Amber back because this is getting too long. And I'm sure people are like, no, because it's like good content, um, sad content, but like it's out there and it's happening, and and it's probably in many religions. I feel like anything that's strict and I'm sorry, male dominated as like the higher up is dangerous. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:05

Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:07

Yeah, thanks. That was lame. Thanks, Amber, for coming. Yeah, thanks for having me. We'll see you guys next Tuesday.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:14

Help me freely walk in your eye.