Beans & Banter
We are Keith and NiCole Fischer, owners of The Mill in Bonduel, Wisconsin. The Mill is a coffee lounge, bourbon retailer, and boutique. But more than that, it’s a gathering place for numerous people, full of countless stories. Join us as we dissect our
Beans & Banter
Computer Programer to Chief Deputy
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What do computer programming and law enforcement have in common? For Chief Deputy John Rousseau of the Brown County Sheriff’s Office, more than you'd think. After walking away from a career in software to pursue public service, he found himself using both passions to improve policing from the inside out.
In this episode, John shares about his journey from computer programmer to Chief Deputy while offering an honest look at the people behind the badge.
From innovation and leadership to parenting and public service, he discusses why trust in law enforcement is built through transparency, integrity, and a commitment to serving the community.
It's a thoughtful conversation that challenges perceptions and reminds us that behind every uniform is someone dedicated to making a difference.
Grab a coffee, pull up a seat, and get to know John Rousseau with us.
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I think it sometimes it makes sense to reevaluate the standards to see if they still make sense. Yeah, you're right.
SPEAKER_05Um, just because we've always done something one way doesn't mean you keep doing it. Like there should be a reason, right?
SPEAKER_02I had a it's funny you mentioned that. I had a picture in my office. Is it the running in the bulls in Spain? You know what I'm talking about? Yep. Yeah. So there's a picture of a guy running away from all these bulls, and and uh it was entitled Tradition. And underneath that it said, just because we've always done something that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. Um it's what your parents used to say like if everybody jumped off the bridge, would you do it?
SPEAKER_04Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02So you you take a look at it and you say, Okay, I know we've always done it this way, but it is that the best way, or is there a better way to do it, or whatever?
SPEAKER_06When you are feeling close to me. You tell me. You know, you're still inside of me.
SPEAKER_01Hi, my name is Nicole Fisher. I'm Keith. Fisher. And this is Beans and Banter. If you don't know where you landed today, um, today we have a special guest named John Russo. John Russo is a man, and he is the chief deputy in Brown County. Um, he's done some great things for law enforcement, like inventing programs and a bunch of stuff that I don't really know the technology side of it, but it's done a lot. It's a lot of history. I've done a few ride-alongs with him when I was starting off in school. So like I always looked up to him when I was like wanting to be a cop. So it's kind of cool to see where he's at now. And uh I want to hear his story and not just like law enforcement side, but like a person side, family stuff, whatever you want to talk about, whatever he wants to talk about and share. And um kind of talk about how we got to where he's at. John's doesn't want to be here, but we made up.
SPEAKER_05He reluctantly came.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. All right, let's get started.
SPEAKER_05All right.
SPEAKER_01Well, well, Keith always starts off. John, hi, John. Thanks for coming. Hi.
SPEAKER_05Do you want to start off? Do you want to ask a funny question?
SPEAKER_02Um, no, I want you to.
SPEAKER_05Do you watch any of our stuff?
SPEAKER_02I have. Yeah. Yeah. I watched um I watched the Mike Saucy one. That one is really good. And I've known Mike for a long time professionally, and uh his was really good.
SPEAKER_05He is really good, very informative, informative for sure. And like just does good work, like yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um and he found his passion. That's yes, he that's so cool. Yeah, it's awesome.
SPEAKER_05All right, we get a little weird.
SPEAKER_01He tries to break the ice with weird stuff right away.
SPEAKER_05Do you think we landed on the moon?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, this is a good one because you're smart. Not saying other people aren't smart, but you're like I'm stupid.
SPEAKER_02So you know, have you ever fallen down those YouTube rabbit holes? Yeah. You you start looking at, you know, how do I plaster a wall, and then you end up figuring out if we landed on the moon. Oh yeah. I think if you watch enough of those conspiracy videos for anything, you'll start to question life, right? Yeah, yeah. So, like, like um Joe Rogan had that guy on that that worked at Area 51 that that talked about all of these different elements and all this. And and right after you get done with that, and I think it's human nature, you're kind of like, I believe that. I think that's what really happened. Right. So you watch a handful of the moon landing ones, and you're like, yeah, I can I can see that, I can see that. But I I do. I I do think we landed on the moon. I I think I think you have that in your head right when you watch it, but then you look at all of the evidence. So there is either this huge conspiracy that involves 50 years and millions of people, or we landed on the moon. So you kind of have to go with the the Occam's razor thing, the the most likely scenario is probably the right one. And that's where I land on a lot of those too.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Someone had a good point. They're like, it's really loud all of a sudden. They're like, um, then that would mean Russia would have to be in on it, and all the other countries that were trying to beat us to the moon. Like, they would also have to be in on the conspiracy theory of us not landing on the moon.
SPEAKER_02At some point, we have to have some faith in something, right? Yeah, whatever that is.
SPEAKER_05We have to have faith in whatever it is. I'm not gonna like have any follow-up questions or argue with you.
SPEAKER_01He just wants to know where you stand with the mumbling.
SPEAKER_05That's totally okay. Everybody, everybody has their own.
SPEAKER_02I do think it's been interesting. Have you seen um some of the like the declassified UFO um UFO stuff that's been coming out recently?
SPEAKER_01Still bad footage, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Terrible. Like you can take a 10-megapixel picture with your camera, but you get a picture of Bigfoot in Washington, and there's like pixels, and it's a granular, yeah.
SPEAKER_01People's ring cameras are better quality than anything that they came out with. All right.
SPEAKER_05Um, okay. So, how long has your career uh been going on?
SPEAKER_02I have been 20 just over 22 years. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Wow. And you started in Green Bay.
SPEAKER_02I did.
SPEAKER_01What did that look like when you started? And what year was that?
SPEAKER_02Um, that was 2004. It's right after I graduated college. So I went to college for computer science. I don't know if you knew that.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god, that's right. Nerd. Such a nerd.
SPEAKER_05Is that like a backup plan, or what were you thinking?
SPEAKER_02No, it was uh it was a I think my dad's gonna be mad at me if I if I choose a law enforcement plan. So he was in law enforcement for his whole career.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he was a detective, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you know, growing up, you always look up to your dad. I did. Um, and hey, that's what I want to be, that's what I want to be. And and I remember when I was a kid, he would say, I didn't work all these years and all this overtime for you to get into this same job that I did.
SPEAKER_01He did say that. Yeah, absolutely. Your dad's such a cool guy, too.
SPEAKER_02So then, you know, then I go to college and computers came easy to me, and programming came easy to me. So I thought, well, I I should probably pick something else because oh, he'd be really mad at me.
SPEAKER_01Really? That was the reason.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, pretty much. And it was easy and it, but it was always, you know, it I I think I always had that service, I always had the service mindset. I didn't want to sit in an office all day, and I certainly didn't want to do it until I was 60. Um so I went through college and I uh I was in the private sector. I made it um eight weeks. And what were you doing in the program? Longer than a lot of her jobs. Yeah, I was a programmer. Yeah, I sat behind a couple of things. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. I sat behind a desk and I was a programmer.
SPEAKER_01How did you quit your job? Did you just not show up? No, that's too irresponsible for you.
SPEAKER_02Who would do that? No. You ever get I I know you have, but you get to that point where you have your life planned out, and then all of a sudden one day you're gonna upend the entire thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that that was that day. So I turn in my resignation and I say, hey, you know what? I I just this isn't this isn't for me. Um, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm gonna try something else. And then I thought, well, I went to I went to St. Norbert. So I uh I went to a private school and I they they didn't just wipe out those those loans because you decided to do something else. Yeah, true. So um, you know, now I now I don't have a job and I don't know what I'm gonna do. And and then I uh then I went to the police academy right away.
SPEAKER_01Through did you get hired through Green Bay and they put you through the police academy, or is that pre-they did that?
SPEAKER_02No, this was um do you remember do you remember Bill Clinton's 100,000 New Cops on the Street initiative that he had back? So as part of that program, he created a uh it was an extra Bill Clinton was pro-law enforcement? Yeah, it's uh yeah. Times have changed. You're being careful?
SPEAKER_05It was a different time.
SPEAKER_02No, I'm not being careful. I think because because that's shocking. Well, I because I think some people get their impression of what the most popular idea of the time is, right? So hey, if you know, if uh whatever the thing is, if spinach is going to be the good thing for today, then everybody's gonna love spinach, and now spinach is gonna be the bad thing.
SPEAKER_01So you're right.
SPEAKER_02I don't know of anybody that's not pro-criminal justice, really. I mean, I don't it it's hard. I even even the even the whole defund the police thing, you know, even the at some level, right? Yeah, like you have to believe in our justice system at some level, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01Because obviously they want security, some people, right?
SPEAKER_02And and I think even you saw that during the defund the police thing where people were you know, defund the police has a has a million different meanings, and I don't think it means we don't want another cop anywhere in this country ever again. I don't think it means that. Okay, yeah, that's a good way of putting it, but yeah, so so he had the program and and this academy was was created as part of that program.
SPEAKER_01I didn't I didn't remember that, that's cool. So you okay, so you went through the academy, you got hired through Green Bay. How did your dad handle that?
SPEAKER_02Oh, by the time I graduated, he it was completely different. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01He had to be proud. He is now because spoiler alert, yeah, John has a brother who is also cop.
SPEAKER_02Where's he? Uh same place, bro. Oh, really?
SPEAKER_01Oh man.
SPEAKER_02Is he younger or older than you? He is younger, he's about a year and a half younger.
SPEAKER_01Did he always want to be a cop? Or was it like a switch like you too?
SPEAKER_02No, he was more like you. Yeah, he was like, tried a million different things along the way.
SPEAKER_01And then he ended up being a cop?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01See, I wish I would have like not started off thinking I was supposed to be a cop. I wasted so much time. You know what I mean? Like finding my way, but yeah.
SPEAKER_05I did it though. If you think about it. No, I think everything.
SPEAKER_01I know it's such a cliche. Every road leads where you're supposed to go, but like really.
SPEAKER_05And and look at, I mean, it it made you toe the line just enough that you like like not get arrested.
SPEAKER_01More proper. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You know, like not burn a house. I think that's oh, thank you.
SPEAKER_02I think that's your um what is it every road leads there or every I I think they all make you better along the way, right? Right? You know, yeah, you're right.
SPEAKER_01Or you would get lessons from it, right? But you should you know the most boring people to take the straight path, right? If you really think about a boring, like, oh not much depth, like you knew what you wanted to do, and that's it, and this is you're doing it. And like maybe a part of me, because I have I have people in my life that I say, like, I've actually said to one of them, I'm envious of how content you are. She was that way out of high school and has the same job, and but like, and there's nothing wrong with that, but like her her like contentness of like her car, and I'm not materialistic at all, but like I'm always like, okay, what's next? What are we gonna do? Like, I'm getting bored with this. What are we gonna do? So I think it's um maybe ADD. Maybe it's diagnosed. Maybe I'm I'm not diagnosed, right?
SPEAKER_02But yeah, so okay, you're but who says who says, Hey, we're gonna buy a hundred-year-old building and right and build it? Like, how do you how do you wake up and just decide that's what you're gonna do?
SPEAKER_05It was a we're like all in on it too, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um during 2020.
SPEAKER_05So how was it? How was it growing up with a cop dad?
SPEAKER_02Uh that was it was different.
SPEAKER_01I I think were you naughty? No, I know my brother was so good to tell him that. But were you like naughty but didn't get caught? Or you were just a straight up straight laced kid.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wow, good for you.
SPEAKER_02Okay, mostly because I was scared of what's gonna happen when I got home. Okay, good. Let's talk about that. Like, what was that like? No, uh, my parents are awesome, and it wasn't, but but you still have to remember that his dad's a Harley guy and mom.
SPEAKER_01You would love you would love his parents.
SPEAKER_02Where'd you grow up? Ash Robinhood. Oh, okay. But you know what? I I don't know how your parents, my my mom went summer. My mom stayed home with us, and my dad worked, obviously, right? So uh my brother and I, we were close to the same age, so we go out and do stuff.
SPEAKER_01And are you guys Italian? No, what's Russo? French, French, Belgian, yeah, same thing, yeah. It's Italian-ish.
SPEAKER_02But she would always say, like, hey, if you don't knock that off, I'm gonna call your dad. And that was usually enough, yeah. Yeah, like, no, I don't want you picking up that phone. We'll fix whatever we're doing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and your brother was the no, he was a good kid too. Are you just saying that on the record?
SPEAKER_02No, he was.
SPEAKER_01Do you like how he looks frustrated with everything I say? No, not frustrated.
SPEAKER_05Um, did growing up with a cop dad change how you parent? Do you have kids? I do. Okay. I do.
SPEAKER_02I have two kids later in life, um, which I think is awesome, by the way. Yeah. So I have uh my son is nine, uh, and my daughter is about a year and a half.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, his son and Nox are very, very like close birthdays. Yeah, really close.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then my daughter is younger. So I had her when I was older, 42.
SPEAKER_01But you had some complications.
SPEAKER_02There was yeah, but it's but it's been awesome being a little bit older because now you that stuff that used to matter to you when you were a kid don't matter anymore.
SPEAKER_01100%. And you're more relaxed, your career set. Like we say our second litter.
SPEAKER_05Well, actually they have it so much better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we don't give a about the small things. Like, so you're in drinking, like, this isn't fair. This isn't fair. I'm like, dude, I was on food stamps living in a shitty apartment with you. Life was different. Now it's like, I don't care if they're eating candy right now.
SPEAKER_05We at it for the third time at the concessions when you're sitting there all day. So yeah, we let things go like that.
SPEAKER_01So you like being older, an older parent. You're not that old though. How old are you?
SPEAKER_02Um I think 44.
SPEAKER_01Really?
SPEAKER_05Old enough that you have to think about it that nobody asks you anymore.
SPEAKER_01That's that's like the normal parent age. Look at our parents' generation, was like right away you had kids.
SPEAKER_02You have these milestones though, right? Like you want to turn 18 so you can buy a pack of cigarettes even if you don't smoke. Now it's 21. I know.
SPEAKER_03Do you know that though, Chief Deputy? Are you sure?
SPEAKER_02Okay, you know, and then you want to turn 21 because you want to be able to go to the fire, and then after 21, it's kind of like falls off. Yeah, whatever. I don't care. What do I look forward to?
SPEAKER_05And then when you Medicare almost to 65. Okay, so do you think it's changed you as like your parenting? Do you think how you parent now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it does. You know what the the probably um I I hope they'll appreciate this when they're older, but some of the stuff I think that I focus on that other that that only because of what I know. So, like if he takes his iPad and he's going in there, it's like, hey, what what app are you on? What are you watching? What are you doing? Because you see the bad stuff that goes along with it. Sure. Oh, yeah. And I mean, I think technology brings a lot, it has the potential to bring a lot. Um, but there's also a whole lot of bad out there.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_02And that's the part that makes me nervous.
SPEAKER_05Oh yeah. We we preached our kids all the time. Don't tell anybody where you live, don't tell them your real name.
SPEAKER_01Well, if Nox was chatting with someone, he's like, His name's Nox too, and he's my age. I'm like, no, that's a fat man in the basement that's trying to steal you. His name is not Nox.
SPEAKER_05Turns out it was.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Cummy's like, no, the kid's legit and his name's Nox. Like, um, but they're super honest. Uh-huh. Like at least my kid, they're super honest. They are. Like if you ask a question where normally you'd expect an adult to tell you something that's not true. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Well, maybe it's just you're so used to people lying you all the time.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_05Because of your work. Like, I don't believe anything.
SPEAKER_01So when let's talk about your um, and so our audience has some law enforcement, I know, because they've told me. And you too, Cammy knows. Um, so they like to listen to, like, we have some Milwaukee coppers and stuff that listen to this, but like um, also a lot of like non-law enforcement. Explained your programs that you invented, and Keith said you dropped the ball there because you should have did it privately dissolved. Um, but explain that to somebody that's no clue what those programs mean.
SPEAKER_02It's um you know, it's interesting. So after I went to school for computer science and I decided that that wasn't going to be for me. So then I um I was all in on on law enforcement, and I I went to the academy and I was on the road and I was driving a police car, and I got to wear the uniform, and all of that stuff was was uh that now I'm not in an office every day, and then that that was exciting again. But then you get to the point where you start to see, and for anybody who has this misconception about law enforcement, if you get that from watching CSI, you know, and you can type in the computer and and in less than an hour you have this whole kid. None of that's true. Yeah, none of that's true. We didn't when I started, we didn't even have internet in our police cars.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we didn't even have a computer. I didn't have a computer. Yeah, I was writing tickets out by hand.
SPEAKER_02And everybody, well, you can look that up on the computer, and and you know, you're thinking to yourself, like, no, I can't. We don't we don't have that, we don't have those things. So you start to see some of this, some of these paperwork processes, and then I thought, well, hey, you know what, maybe I didn't waste this whole computer science background. Maybe I can use that. Um, and maybe we can maybe we can try to make something that'll be beneficial to everybody. So um, that's what we did. So it ended up uh, and and I gotta be honest with you, it was it was out of laziness. So we had these, we uh which most great inventions, right?
SPEAKER_01Like toilet paper, you don't want to use your hand, just like that.
SPEAKER_02So slightly, slightly cleaner, but so we had um we had you know, you had to fill out a police report, right? So every time you go on something, you have a form and you have to fill it out, and um, everything at government has forms. So we had numbered forms and there were forms for everything. There we had a form to request new forms. Um, so really yeah, if you ran out of paper forms, you had to fill out a form to request new paper forms. So you had to handwrite all of that, and my handwriting was terrible. So I would turn in my reports.
SPEAKER_01Side note, that's a sign of intelligence. Again, it's sloppiness. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02So I would always get those back, like, hey, I can't read this, or what is this word, or there would be stuff crossed off, or whatever. And I thought, you know what? I'm just gonna I'm gonna make this quick program, and it was all gonna be for me. So I made this quick program where I could come on, you're gonna make your own program? Yeah, I did. But but like I said, it was not a laziness. So then I could just type into the program, I could hit print, and then it was all on the forms, and it was, and then I could turn that in, and I never got them turned back, and I never got them denied, or whatever. So then it was outstanding.
SPEAKER_01That is actually pretty smart.
SPEAKER_02Then you could reuse them.
SPEAKER_01So then administration caught on. They're like, This son of a is out of the car. We're putting him in a desk, even though he didn't want that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, 100%. That's what happened. Really? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So um we had uh his commander at the time, he later became the the chief. He called me and he said, Hey, um, what do you what are you doing here? And I thought, oh, you know what? I didn't ask for permission for this, I'm in trouble somehow. Like I did something wrong. And he said, Hey, what whatever you're doing here, can you do that for the whole agency? So I've never never done it before, but I'll give it a shot. So then that turned into um what it what was our records management system.
SPEAKER_01Come on. And that was for Green Bay.
SPEAKER_02It was it was for Green Bay. Um, and then it ended up being used by everybody in the county. Um, and then there's been a handful of other ones since then because there always there always was this thing where you'd see, hey, I think I can make a difference here, you know, and whether that's on a call on the road or whether that's really whether that's doing something. So again, a pattern. Did you get to name it? I did. What did you name it? It is not so we named it GURP. GERP. Yeah. Green Bay Yeah, Electronic Records Project.
SPEAKER_01Well, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you want to know how creative I was during this?
SPEAKER_01I want to know.
SPEAKER_02There was a memo that that moved me inside to work on this thing, and that was the title of the memo Green Bay Electronic Records Project.
SPEAKER_01Well, you probably weren't thinking it's gonna be as cool as it is.
SPEAKER_02No, I had no idea what it was. So it ended up just being a handful of people at first.
SPEAKER_01Can you rename it maybe?
SPEAKER_02And and you know, it's um you laugh, but can you get that coffee's good, isn't it? It is good. Um, yeah. Here's the thing about about working on the road, especially night shift. I spent a lot of time on night shift. I never wanted to get used to good coffee.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because I went with you. We would go to quick trip.
SPEAKER_02You never get good coffee. Well, if you went to quick trip, that was another one.
SPEAKER_01That was good, yeah. But we would go to gas stations sometimes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there was like one gas station open in the middle of the room.
SPEAKER_01I know we're gonna drift a little. Kid with Dorito bag. Do you remember that? No, I don't. How did you know though? Because I feel like you jumped on no you don't right away.
SPEAKER_02No, because so I've taken a lot of people on ride-alongs, and I love taking people on ride-alongs because it's you don't anymore, though, because that would be like an office along.
SPEAKER_01No, they'd watch me send emails.
SPEAKER_02Yes, that would be so ring.
SPEAKER_01You're a desk jockey.
SPEAKER_02I used to I used to like it because it was you would get into it, but it was the opportunity for to show people.
SPEAKER_01Green Bay is not a safe I I know you're gonna want you want to argue that, and that's okay because you should, but like Green Bay is not Bonda Well.
SPEAKER_02I think they're all different, and every community is different.
SPEAKER_01Okay, Green Bay is great, it is, it is a great department, but I think it's the way to to show people what law enforcement really is.
SPEAKER_02Yep. So if you have somebody who doesn't know anything about it and all they see is what they see on cops on TV or whatever, I think the ride-alongs are always a way to show people like, hey, this is what you really do, and you can you know stop and buy lemonade, and then you can, you know, go to calls. And it's it's it's the whole job, not just the five minutes that they show on cops. So I used to love ride-alongs, but every time I talk to somebody who's going on a ride-along with me, they always bring up a story and say, Hey, do you remember this?
SPEAKER_01But you didn't even give me an opportunity. You would right away, like, no, like you didn't want me to touch on that story.
SPEAKER_02I think you've brought up that Dorito, that Dorito story before.
SPEAKER_01What's we don't have to talk about it, we might edit it out, but not okay. We'll we'll see how he feels about it. Okay. I went on a ride-along with you, and this it was like a area, not not suburb area, and someone had their house broken into by kids, and it was like, I know these neighbor kids keep coming, and then whatever. And you were like exhausted dealing with these people because it was like constant. Don't get nervous, we can take it out of time like this. Um, and you're like, I know exactly who did this because the lady's like, they came and they stole my Doritos, little snack Doritos and a bunch of stuff, like and like made a mess and like dumped stuff in her apartment, whatever. And um, we went over, you knocked on the door, and the lady's like, No, my kids have been home, and she and you're like, There's this little chubby kid. And you're like, really? Where do you get those Doritos? And I don't know what words you said, but it was hilarious. And the lady's like, he's like, Do you have any more of those here? You said you're me more. And she's like, Well, no, where'd you get those? And he's like, John's like, I know exactly where he got those. Over there. The host that whatever it was so funny. You're like, that's what I call great police work. But it was just like, picture a sweaty fat kid. Because he was super sweaty. And like just eating the Doritos, like you could tell he just ran from a place.
SPEAKER_05Probably hurrying up, trying to get rid of the evidence.
SPEAKER_01The door opens, and Matt's like, he's been here. John's like, bull. So that was I don't remember that. Can we please keep that story up? We'll see. I I left a lot out. So you we can I don't I don't remember that. Yeah, well, you were you were fun. You were fun.
SPEAKER_05Okay, anyways. It's funny how certain things, people like things get imprinted in people's minds like that.
SPEAKER_01And it was it was like a movie, it was like something that would be in a movie clip.
SPEAKER_05It's actually kind of fascinating how very few things I remember of my career. Like it's only like either really, really bad or like just totally random. And I don't know why. Like no rhyme or reason.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think that's called trauma.
SPEAKER_05Probably.
SPEAKER_01I think that's like probably, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01How do you handle because I imagine you saw a lot of bad in your career? How do you handle that healthy in a healthy way? Because you look healthy, it doesn't look like you have a drug or alcohol habit. No, do you smoke anymore?
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, isn't that crazy? It was college. It was out of college too.
SPEAKER_02That was college.
SPEAKER_01Do you chew or vape? Oh, you too. You might dabble. You dabble with the vape? No, not the vape. The chew.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. That was a night shift thing to try to stay away. Oh, hell yeah.
SPEAKER_05Honestly. No, like it. I mean, not that I'm promoting anything. We always have to put a disclaimer. But like the nicotine pouches are so much better than the chew.
SPEAKER_01Well, can we talk about you doing a nicotine pouch?
SPEAKER_05I can't. I'm a witch baby.
SPEAKER_01Sawyer gave them one.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And I'm thinking they're just like they're just like, you know, my friends that we I coach with, like those that oh really coach with nicotine pouches. And we, you know, share them, whatever. And no, they're not the same. Apparently, there's different, like, uh, what do you call that? Like dosages of nicotine in each one. And I had and I was throwing up, I threw up all afternoon. Like such a woods.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that Sawyer's like, yeah, uh, did Keith tell you? I like how he was covering for you. I'm like, like, I'm gonna yell at him.
SPEAKER_02Um I did I did a bunch of research on that. Really?
SPEAKER_01Of course you did. Let's talk about it.
SPEAKER_02Well, no, again, this is self-preservation. Oh. So uh my wife's been telling me forever that I have to quit trade.
SPEAKER_01Your wife is an attorney.
SPEAKER_02She is.
SPEAKER_01I'm letting you know that.
SPEAKER_02Just in case you didn't know.
SPEAKER_05So she's really good at arguments.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, her her argument is just telling me not to do it.
SPEAKER_05So you gotta bring your egg aim and then you're like, I'm doing my livery code.
SPEAKER_02Hold on a second. You know, the the nicotine isn't the bad thing, it's the delivery system.
SPEAKER_01So if you really like the smoking, actually, the tar, but the nicotine itself.
SPEAKER_02I yeah, it's I think it's all the other chemicals, and even the same thing with true.
SPEAKER_01Like it's the okay, so nicotine pouches are okay-ish.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, that's my argument. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01But do you do nicotine pouches?
SPEAKER_05No, I kind of want to, but yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_01I'm thinking about picking it up now.
SPEAKER_05Like, I'm gonna get my wussy stomach to get on board.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so how do you handle um besides chewing? Because you you have a like you don't have a atypical law enforcement on the job for how many years you look pretty healthy.
SPEAKER_04Well, thank you.
SPEAKER_01You guys have um, but correct me if I'm wrong, Green Bay definitely is very well, you're not Green Bay anymore, but you guys were like, if you work out, wasn't there benefits?
SPEAKER_02There, I think there's a lot of places doing that. Okay. Um, so I will tell you, over the last 20 years or 25 years, whatever it's been, um, that wellness thing has has like the whole concept of officer wellness has kind of taken off. So when I started, it was completely different.
SPEAKER_05So there's nothing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah no.
SPEAKER_05So I remember there was a physical fitness agility test to get hired, and that was it. Yeah, like there was no follow-up.
SPEAKER_01It was also like mental health and health in general was never talked about. It was like given more giving.
SPEAKER_02No, there's none of that. It was gas stations, gas station sandwiches. And I remember when I first started, I was brand new, and we went on a really, really gruesome call. And at the end of the day, I was standing by the copy machine making copies of those paper reports I was talking about before. So we're making copies of the paper reports, and one of the supervisors came up and he said, Hey, was that the first one of those types of calls that you've ever seen? And I said, Well, honestly, that was the first of a lot of things I've ever seen. And he said, Well, it won't be your last.
SPEAKER_01And that's how it was handled.
SPEAKER_05That was thanks for the peptop. It feels so much better now.
SPEAKER_02You know, and now I I think we're better at it now. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01How what do you guys do with newer officers that or even old ones that have been seeing stuff over and over?
SPEAKER_02I think it's hard with with the differences because we're in that transition, right? So you have the older, and I'm gonna include myself in that people that have been around for a long time, that were never used to that, and and they're kind of the mindset like, hey, this is you'd have to figure it out, and whether that means working out or going for a motorcycle or whatever it is, you have to figure it out, and then and then we kind of go to this new way, which is the post, the police officer support team, and the mental health and the clinicians and the the therapy dogs, and all of the other stuff that kind of comes along with that.
SPEAKER_01Let's talk about the therapy dogs.
SPEAKER_02No, geez.
SPEAKER_01You have them for like for your department just walking around.
SPEAKER_02We have we have a couple, we have a new one. We have a brand new one.
SPEAKER_01What's his name or hers?
SPEAKER_02Millie. And she is a Millie should be at the mill.
SPEAKER_01We have a cat named Millie.
SPEAKER_05At least, at least once.
SPEAKER_01At least one time. You should why why didn't you bring Millie?
SPEAKER_02Well, Millie's still in training.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02So we did this one through the the jail chaplaincy program. So one of the jail chaplains has has Millie. Oh, cool. Um, and she's and and I don't I don't know all of these. There's a facility dog and a therapy dog, and I'm not 100% sure what the difference is, but Millie is a facility dog.
SPEAKER_01Okay, that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_02Um or a therapy dog, one of the two. I don't know. Okay. Anyway, and then we have another one that's in one of our schools, too. Um, and and it's just it's that whole concept. You know, you see that all over the place.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02So I think a lot of times people are trying to figure out how to deal with trauma because what I don't think is the right answer is letting it build and build and build because that doesn't end well. Um, so finding some sort of healthy outlet, whatever that is, you know, if it's working out or going fishing or you know where I find it, if you get done with a really bad day, and my son will be like, Hey, you want to go in the yard and play catch? Like, yes, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Because then you forget about that because he doesn't care about your day. I mean, he cares about your day, but he doesn't care about your own. Not like that. Yeah. So then you live it in the moment. Yeah, like he's yeah.
SPEAKER_01I would say that's you too. You will and playing catch would be your uh too.
SPEAKER_02And how easy is it to just sit in a chair, you know, when you get home and whatever.
SPEAKER_01Or to grab 15 beers and head out to the garage and work on a car.
unknownWait.
SPEAKER_04Why are you looking at me like that?
SPEAKER_02You know what the difference is though? Have a baby.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, because then then you know your priorities total totally change.
SPEAKER_02Like in well, and then and then you like you still have to wake up early in the morning, or yeah. You don't want to punish yourself by a good time, right?
SPEAKER_05And um, or a or a puppy, like she she said, like what when we would have a puppy, she's like, it makes me get up earlier. It does. Like I, you know, makes me happy because there's this little fluff ball that loves only me. Pete was not uh Pete was not one of those dogs, you care. He'll also be in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I you're doing a really good job, by the way. You're natural, isn't he?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, doing great. See, this isn't so bad, right? No, we'll see how the edited version sounds.
SPEAKER_01We'll just put all stuff to make you look bad. CNN slash fox news style, just bits of pieces, you don't get the full story.
SPEAKER_05Um, okay, so you don't have any, you don't have any bad habits per se. Um how has taking care of your own mental health changed from because you said it's a little different, you're like the old guy, right? Like you didn't go from the soft, fuzzy warm stuff. You got from you started uh it's not gonna be the last time you see that, and then to now where you're trying to implement some of those changes as being an administrator. How is it how do you how do you lead that way? Like, do you lead by example? Are you going to these things with people? Like, how does that work?
SPEAKER_02It's hard. I think um a lot of it starts with recognition, at least, where where if you just keep saying, hey, this doesn't exist, this doesn't exist, you know, like you put the blinders on and you say hey this isn't this isn't a problem that we need to address, I think you're you're gonna portray that, right? So if if you don't recognize it yourself, then then somebody's going to say, Hey, you know what? I think I think you know you have this person that's really struggling. Now he'll be fine, he just has to get over it, or that way, whatever. So I think you have to recognize it first. And a lot of it is uh self-reflection, which is really weird because we don't, I'm not, I I've never been great at that. But you have to be able to look back and say, hey, maybe, you know, maybe this one we should have handled differently, or maybe, you know, maybe there was a different way we can do this, or you know, you you take that whole, well, that'll never happen to me, or that'll never happen to our agency, and and and then you have to you have to say, Well, I think there's a balance, right? So I mean, I think I I think there's a way to both be cognizant of of what could happen and then and then also be prepared to how you're gonna respond to it. And it and and I think that's true about everything, there's always a balance. You know, I think so often we're either 100% one way or the other way, and we never find the balance in the middle. And and I think we're a lot better at recognizing that in ourselves. And I think a lot of that comes through awareness. You know, it's not we never talked about mental health. Um, never, and and really, even in the community, we never talked about mental health. That was that was always a fringe thing, but now you you're starting to or like taboo almost.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And unfortunately, I feel like the suicide rate in law enforcement when Sassi talked about how high it was, holy buckets for retirement, for retirement age. So I think when you start looking at the numbers, you're like, okay, this is an issue. Like the tough, the tough cop image.
SPEAKER_05And like if you think of think of like our career, like you're like looking forward to retirement, kind of I don't really view it that way anymore, but there was a time where I was like, Oh, I just gotta get this many years in, you know, and then I'll and then I'll be done. Um, so you like have that ideal idealization in your head of like all retirement's gonna be all sunshine and rainbows, and like this is what I'm working towards, and then to have like that happen, that would that's just terrible, I think. Like, because so many, so many people I know are just just counting the days, you know.
SPEAKER_02I can't wait to get there, and then the calendar on your desk, yeah with the you know, hundred and 167 days until retirement or whatever it is, right? I don't I I always had a problem with setting that as a goal, yeah. Because it's it's it's um what happens when you get there? You know, then what are you gonna do? My only goal is retirement. Well, but then what?
SPEAKER_01And and they're retirement so early in law enforcement, so you have a lot of years, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like what are you gonna do?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01What are you gonna retire when you can? Because I feel like there's a lot you could do. I don't know, we'll see.
SPEAKER_02I you know what?
SPEAKER_01Um because you you could go any day.
SPEAKER_02No, kinda, no, maybe no, I still have a long time yet. Oh, do you though? Yeah, probably. But I don't I don't want to I don't want to set that as like my end goal.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah, I like that. That's kind of you too.
SPEAKER_05But you also I've always said like I'll know when I'm done. Yeah, I but also I think it's important that old cops don't stick around.
SPEAKER_01Yes, the old crusty ones that just don't want to let go.
SPEAKER_05Like that's really not. I mean, there's there is times where it's beneficial to the departments and communities, but it's gotta be the right person, you know. Like I think that's true with any job, but yeah, John didn't like that.
SPEAKER_01He's like, I like my old crusty guys.
SPEAKER_02No, I mean I think I think that's personal, yeah. Yeah, right. It's for everybody, right? And I think everybody starts to recognize hey, you know what, I did however many years, and now I'm gonna now I'm gonna do something else. And it's and it that part of it's been interesting. I always tell people when they're when they're gonna retire, like, hey, um, a friend of mine just retired younger. And I said, You find something to do, whatever it is. You have to find something, um, whether it's take up golf or fishing or woodworking or whatever it is, find something, find something to do, volunteer or do whatever. You know, like making sure that you're caught up on all your episodes or your Netflix show. I I don't know if that's a yeah.
SPEAKER_01What is that show that we watched about with James Franco? 1762 or something. Did you see 1963? I don't watch a lot of TV. We'll work on that.
SPEAKER_05We don't either, but that's a good one.
SPEAKER_01We don't really try, but it never works out. Um, but that's a good one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, was that the Western one? Was that the Taylor Sheridan Western?
SPEAKER_05No, that's the one he's a time traveler with John F. Ketting. Oh no, I didn't see it.
SPEAKER_01It's like you it sounds lame, but it's cool. It's so cool. Yeah, it's a cool one.
SPEAKER_05It it it sucked me right in, and I don't I don't watch TV really, so that was a good one. Um how would you say so? When you got hired in Green Bay, did you see already then the large amount of applicants that because that was like 04, you said? Yeah, so a lot of people looking for jobs in everyone to work for Green Bay.
SPEAKER_01I remember sitting in your freaking auditorium, not yours, but Green Bay's, it was second testing time, 400 people. So, how many applicants do you think you have now?
SPEAKER_02Oh, it's way less, but I don't know if that I don't necessarily know that that means that it's worse.
SPEAKER_01I no, I think it's just you have a good theory. You have a good theory.
SPEAKER_05I think that 9-11 spurred a lot of interest in first responder work, is is my thought.
SPEAKER_01It was heroic. People received it.
SPEAKER_05It was all over the news, the response, you know. Um, so I think that played a huge.
SPEAKER_01During 9-11, yeah.
SPEAKER_05I already I took classes as a junior in high school, like if through the tech. Like if you got a beer better, they paid for it. And my poor ass was like, sign me up. I don't want to pay for that later. So uh, but it it definitely happening. Like every like you couldn't find a firefighter job. Like there was there was none available then. Zero. If you thought finding a cop job was tough, firefighter was even worse. Um so, and I think I mean it's just you hate to say you hate to say it's more dangerous now, but I feel like it is a little more dangerous to get into when the private sector of employment is so lucrative as well. At the same, you know, and so it's what do you what do you think it is?
SPEAKER_02No, I um I think you're right. There used to be, and it's always a pendulum, right? Yeah, so you're right. Yep. So there you had a lot of applicants, and I but I think I think the consistent the consistency is the people that are interested in service. And whether that's police or fire or military or whatever it is, you're always going to have some service-minded people. And I think um, you're right, after 9-11, which is when I got hired too, and the few years after that, I think everybody saw all that positive stuff. And then, you know, and then we had the last couple of years where the pendulum has swung the other way a little bit. But I think there's always people that say, hey, you know what? Uh, instead of complaining, I want to be a part of making the solution better. I want to be a part of of changing the way that that people look at law enforcement or look at um policing or or look at criminal justice or whatever the case may be. So I think you're always going to have um, we always hire good people. And I don't, and I don't know that that we would ever compromise that.
SPEAKER_01So you're saying you're hiring you guys didn't like less than your standards. No, and you told me that when you were chatting here.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You're like, our standards are still high to get in. And I think your community deserves that too. 100%.
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah, I I don't know that the community, like if we if we put out a press release that said, hey, we're gonna lower our standards so that we can get more applicants, whatever, just uh bigger numbers. I don't know that I don't know that that's a way of bringing it up.
SPEAKER_01I think the prison system's lowering their standards, which is kind of alarming. Well, I because they they can't get help, they hired the wage. I talked to one of my dad's old buddies that came in and he goes, now they're like, hey, walk in interviews today, no physicals, just blah blah blah. I'm like, what? It's insane.
SPEAKER_02I think it sometimes it makes sense to re-evaluate the standards to see if they still make sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're right.
SPEAKER_05Um just because we've always done something one way doesn't mean you keep doing it. Like, there should be a reason, right?
SPEAKER_02I had a it's funny you mentioned that. I had a picture in my office. Is it the running in the bulls in Spain? You know what I'm talking about? Yep, yeah. So there's a picture of a guy running away from all these bulls, and and uh it was entitled Tradition. And underneath that it said, just because we've always done something that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. Um kind of is is it's what your parents used to say like if everybody jumped off the bridge, would you do it? So you you take a look at it and you say, Okay, I know we've always done it this way, but it is that the best way, or is there a better way to do it, or whatever?
SPEAKER_01Well, I guess and that goes to why basic training is not as uh intense, at least I'm not talking on a marine standpoint because that's a different beast, but my sister said they re-evaluated basic training and like screaming at people in an Air Force standpoint isn't like gonna benefit them anymore than like their combat or their like high risk situation is probably gonna be at a desk dealing with something. And so like they redid like basic. It's not as in I don't want to say it's not as intense, I don't want to take that away, but Sawyer's like it was a lot more gentle than I expected.
SPEAKER_05He's like, You guys yell at me more than that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he goes, it was like and he's like, and they said they had to like they reevaluated, like, okay, we don't need to necessarily like be in people's faces screaming because they're not getting better, and that's never gonna be the situation they're in in an Air Force standpoint. They're never gonna be like in a maybe, maybe, but you know, so yes.
SPEAKER_02How effective is that, really? Like, you're you ever you ever do that when you like you scream at your kids? He says that all the time for something, and then and then I always walk away and I think, okay, did that really yeah, he says I think it depends on the kids' personality.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, um, some of them need it.
SPEAKER_01Well, the journey we should be.
SPEAKER_05Some of them, like I can just like get down on their level and talk to them. I'm really quiet, very slow and deliberate, and they'll like cry after. So, like, okay, I have that reactionary response of okay, it's gotten the messages now conveyed. Great. Like, we're getting somewhere. Did I? I didn't have to yell it. They absorbed it better, they feel bad about it, there's remorse, and now we can move on and get go on. So, like, I don't think it's necessarily the main objective every time, like, but sometimes in our own faults, like we'll why'd you point at me? I said our own, we'll yell a little in the heat of the moment.
SPEAKER_01I prepared our son for basic training.
SPEAKER_05And some of them need it at certain times. Kids, um, in my opinion, in this generation, like they're starved for discipline. For sure.
SPEAKER_02There's and I think there's times too, right? So it depends, I think the situation, and that's true for leadership generally. So if if your kid's gonna reach his hand on the hot stove, then you're gonna yell, stop. You're not gonna say, Hey, you know, can we talk about this? And maybe um do you do you really want to do that, or is that the choice you're gonna make?
SPEAKER_01No, you're gonna say stop, don't do that. Yeah, you're right.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01God, you suck at your logical responses. Doesn't he? He's good.
SPEAKER_05Uh-huh. Sucks. So, how long, how long have you been in your current position?
SPEAKER_02Um, short, uh briefly.
SPEAKER_01It was so weird because I'm like, hey, congratulations. Like, you just got yeah, and you're like, How can I ask you how you knew that? And I'm like, I someone told me earlier. No, I suit. I no, nobody told me. He just found out the day before two days.
SPEAKER_02It's only been about a month.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and he's like, I just found out that I was. I'm like, oh, well, I am psychic. So but I thought you were already.
SPEAKER_02No, I was not.
SPEAKER_01So I already I manifested that for you. You're welcome. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Congrats on the promotion. So thank you.
SPEAKER_01Talk about how you um your promotions, how they went, like starting from the beginning. It was um like your ladder that you climbed. Is that what the words we use?
SPEAKER_02I don't here's here's another weird thing too. I never I never set career goals. You ever talk about the retirement thing? Like, you don't want retirement to be your end goal.
SPEAKER_01I never want to be chief deputy?
SPEAKER_02No, I never set career goals.
SPEAKER_01What made you want to be the chief deputy?
SPEAKER_02I so along the way, I've always looked at during any of the processes or whatever that like like early on, you had to put in for a promotion. So I've always looked at hey, do I think that I could do a good job at this? And if I don't, if that job wasn't for me, if I don't think I'd be good at it, then I would rather let somebody would be better at it, do it. That seems to make more sense. Um and along the way, I've I've had a ton of great experiences. I've been able to do a lot of things, but I I I've never set like in my head, like when I started, hey, this is the job I want, otherwise, I won't judge my. Career is successful. I've never had that. That's really healthy. Well, but it what's the first question that they ask you in any interview that you're ever been? Hey, where'd you see yourself in five years?
SPEAKER_01And you know, I mean, as a as a administrator, don't you love the answer to be the best at my job I'm hired at? Like when when they're like, I want to be the chief, you know, it's like, get out of here.
SPEAKER_05Do you know what answer I like better than any of that when I ask have asked that question in the past? Is when they tell me what their personal goals are at home. Like, oh, I hope to be, you know, I want to live here with my family, maybe have a dog or whatever.
SPEAKER_01And the dog would I would hire them.
SPEAKER_05Like, I love it. I love that answer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Way better than where they see themselves within a department or here, like when we ask that question, like stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02And it's hard when you ask that question, it's like, I don't, I don't know what I don't 100% know what this job is. How do I know what I want to do?
SPEAKER_01Do you guys ask that question yet?
SPEAKER_02In interviews? No. No, no, it's so versions of it. You know, like like in five years, how would you judge if you've been successful?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's a good one.
SPEAKER_02And I think that makes more sense, right?
SPEAKER_01So how how would you judge your career if you were someone looking at your career? Would you say you did a good job?
SPEAKER_02We're not supposed to ask me those questions.
SPEAKER_01I'm asking you. How would you how would you say?
SPEAKER_02I don't, I I I uh I don't want to say that I you don't want to talk about yourself? No, I no, I don't but if you were gonna ask me how I judge if my career is successful, I would rather ask I would have rather have you ask other people.
SPEAKER_01How they liked to work under you? Yeah, and and and not it uh with me. Oh god, suck. But really under you. No, not at all. Not at all.
SPEAKER_05So so do you ask? I'm gonna I'm gonna be a little I'm gonna be a little funny here. Do you ask the people instead of asking like um somebody that works in your department, do you ask other people that question? What question? Instead of the person you're asking it to? What do you mean?
SPEAKER_01What question?
SPEAKER_05Like how she just asked, if you think, you know, look at the last five years of your career. Do you think you're being, you know, would you say it's successful?
SPEAKER_01Are you asking him if he asked people how around them?
SPEAKER_05Like how to see what they would say about him. Yeah, because it's a little hip. I don't want to say hypocritical.
SPEAKER_01Am I confused or are you confused? No, I don't. I uh so uh what is he asking? I'm confused.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01So ask him what you're asking instead of saying what I said, because I said a lot of things. Okay, start over.
SPEAKER_05If you're if it's fair, it's if it's fair for you to ask somebody you work with that question, then it should be fair for you to answer it.
SPEAKER_02Oh, absolutely, right? But that's why we change it. So so if no, so I would look at so if you were asking me, if I was judging it myself, um, I would like to say, do I think that this agency is in a better place with me having been here? Then yes. And if I ever truly think that that's not the case, then I should probably find something else to do.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So if you're turning into the, if you're turning into this plague or whatever, and if if I think that that I'm no longer being beneficial, then I should look for something else to do. And either I'll know that or somebody else will tell me that.
SPEAKER_05Have you ever had moments in your career where you're like, this isn't what I thought it was gonna be? Or like any like down, down, I don't want to say down times, but like um maybe darker times where you're like, oh, I don't know. Do you ever experience like that up and down a little?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but I but I think everybody does. Yeah, and and you know, you always it's part of that as part of looking at at it, you'll always say, Hey, you know what? It what are we really making a difference here? Is what we're doing really matter? And it's always interesting whenever you start to think that way, you'll run into somebody who remembers you from somewhere and they'll and they'll they'll give you a positive comment. Or they'll say, Hey, you know what? Uh I had this positive experience with somebody from your agency or whatever the case may be, and then it snaps you out of it right away.
SPEAKER_01No, you're right.
SPEAKER_02You know, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_05Little moments like the universe just slaps you in the face.
SPEAKER_01Those are little god moments that's like, hey, you're right where you need to be. That's what I think.
SPEAKER_02But I have never been where where I wake up and I and I've thought, I really don't want to go to work today. I've never I've never been there.
SPEAKER_01Well, good for you.
SPEAKER_02Because then I think you start to turn into that, hey, if if I don't want to be there, then everybody else is gonna know that I don't want to be there. Right. And that's not how I want to walk through the door every day. I think that looking at looking at this career, I I I don't know, and and this is probably a little bit selfish. I don't know that there is a career out there where you can have as much of a direct impact on people as this one. And if that is something that brings meaning and value to you, um, that's what this career will provide. Um, it's not easy. It's there there will be challenging days, there will be struggles, there will be frustrations, but there's also going to be a whole bunch of those really, really good moments where you think, hey, this is why I did this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is a rewarding job.
SPEAKER_02And it's not, you know, the and the problem is everybody, I always say this when I'm talking that that 95% of the public's interaction with law enforcement is on a traffic stop. They get pulled over for speeding or whatever the case maybe. That's 95% of the interaction. But the job is so much more than that. And and certainly there's a criminal justice part of it, right? So so part of our job is law enforcement, but there's also the other part too, and that's the working with the community and and um you know building up those relationships. And I know that that a lot of those community relationships and having those networks, and you you see that too. If if you guys are having a fundraiser, if you're having a parade or whatever, everybody likes to see the police car and the fire truck, and and um, I tell this story. Nobody in I've been doing this 23. Nobody has ever called 911 and said, Hey, I just wanted to call and tell you I'm having a really, really good day. I don't need anything, don't want anything. Just wanted you to know I'm having a good day.
SPEAKER_01Did I steal that from you? Maybe did you used to say we're having a bar mitzvah? No, okay, then I didn't.
SPEAKER_02But nobody, nobody's ever made that call. So please nobody dial 911 and say that. That's not a yeah. But but you have this 911, which we've been beating into us since we were kids, to call 911 in an emergency, right? So just by the sake of calling 911, something is wrong. You're having a bad day for some reason. And this career provides you a way to be that person on the other end of the phone that says, Hey, I got that phone call. Now I get to go and help you make whatever happened in your life today make that better somehow. And that's an awesome responsibility. It it really is, but it's it's also the one where when you drive home, you can think, hey, I today was a good day.
SPEAKER_01I feel like you are in a really good place from when I used to know you. Not saying you are were bad, but you seem like you're doing really well, and I'm happy for that. If you seem really happy and you seem like mentally great, not saying you were not mentally great, and I mean that like you just you have a for being a cop for 23 years, don't you agree? He has a very good outlook.
SPEAKER_05Um, still very positive.
SPEAKER_01And you deal, I mean, it's not like you you have a busy department, you have a lot, you guys deal with a lot of calls. How many calls on average do you think?
SPEAKER_02So we're like 60 or 70,000 a year. It's week.
SPEAKER_01That's a week. But you know how many of those a year?
SPEAKER_02You know how many years I go on a year? Like maybe three or four.
SPEAKER_01Do you ever go riding alongs with your guys?
SPEAKER_02I used to go out on the road all the time.
SPEAKER_01Really? Do I think there's still value in that? 100%. But do they like that?
SPEAKER_02No, probably not. Yeah, I don't know if they do or not.
SPEAKER_01I would hate that.
SPEAKER_02I made that joke when I was uh I was patrol captain right before this one, and I always said, hey, I'm I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna I'm gonna go on calls, um, partially because I think it's important to go on the calls, and then also partially because that's why we all got into this job, and I and I um I don't want to lose touch with that part. Uh and I think they got used to it. I don't know if they liked it or not, but but they got used to it.
SPEAKER_01When I think when I did a ride along with you in Green Bay, you were just got promoted to lieutenant one of the times. And they were all nervous when you would show up. You're like, guys, we're at well, you remember that? Well, oh, do you remember this or do you not?
SPEAKER_02No, but that happens all the time.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, and you're like, you guys, it's still me. Yeah, and they're like, Yeah, it's just different now. And you're like, No, it's not, it's still me.
SPEAKER_02I don't we we just had a promotion ceremony yesterday, and somebody gave you advice that said, Hey, you got promoted because of who you are, so there's no reason to change who you are from here.
SPEAKER_01So that's really good advice. Say that slower, say that slower, be more impactful.
SPEAKER_02I talk fast.
SPEAKER_01Say no, that is that is really that's good. You got promoted because of who you are, don't change who you are.
SPEAKER_02You got promoted because of who you are. There's no reason to change who you are. That's really good in any job. Well, but the but the paradox part of it is everybody changes, right? Because you make yourself better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you want them to change, but yet you don't want them to turn into a either. Well, as a you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_02You want to make yourself better.
SPEAKER_01Of course, you have like oblig because you're they work under you.
SPEAKER_02Just kidding.
SPEAKER_01I was just saying, I know, but I mean obviously you have different um I don't we have different there's they're different jobs.
SPEAKER_02You know, like if you so um I make maple syrup in spring. That's one of my hobbies. It's not it, it's relapsing. Oh, but when you look back at the end of the day, only like three or four gallons. We don't have we don't have no, it's a family thing. My dad comes, my son's out there, my my my wife and daughter come out, everybody's out there, so it's kind of a family thing. But when you look back at the end of the day, you can find those mason jars full of maple syrup, right? And you can say, hey, that's how many I made today. There are days when I leave work and I think, well, how do I know what I did today? I can look at my I can look at my set box. Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, I sent 53 emails today. Yeah, you know, where before when you're on, you know, when you're on the road, you can look at, hey, these are all the calls that I want on. So they're they're different jobs.
SPEAKER_01Good analogy. I like that maple syrup one.
SPEAKER_02Or splitting wood. Splitting wood's the other one. Yeah, you're tired, you're sweaty, but there's a whole pile of stacked wood behind you. And how do you gauge it? Goes back to the success question, right? Like, how do you know that you're successful? Well, I can look at the pile of wood, and that's how much I did today.
SPEAKER_01That's good. Cammy, you like him?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like you seem just like a very good leader. Yeah. Like I would want to be, I would want to have you as a in leadership. Well, thank you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's what I meant. That's what I will leave for other people to decide, though.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we'll we'll get some of his deputies on and see how that'll be next. Glad John Russo's an asshole.
SPEAKER_00Anything else we should ask him? I was just gonna ask when you're hiring somebody to keep those standards high, what are you looking for in a new hire?
SPEAKER_02I uh that's a great question.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, good call. Yeah, he's on it. Is that Olivia? Probably. It's an Olivia mood. Yeah, beating up the ice. Yeah. Is it Olivia? Yes, okay, 100%. She's always, yeah.
SPEAKER_05She's angry.
SPEAKER_02I always, you know what we um, the things that I look for are the the things that you can't necessarily train. Um, work ethic, morals, and values, and um the the stuff that was instilled in you by your parents or your grandparents or whoever whoever had influence on your life, the things that you can't train. You want to make sure that we hire good people.
SPEAKER_01You said he said something good when you were here drinking coffee, that what you've seen change with the hiring is it used to be back in, I'm gonna say our day, because I was in the hiring process around your time when you got hired. Um, it was I've always wanted to be a cop. And you said this. Like you went from the people that are like, I always wanted to be a cop to now I was in construction for five years and I'm gonna try being a cop. And I'm like, oh, really? And you're like, it's actually a good thing because we have all walks of life now. You're like, we have the construction guys, we have the, you know what I mean? They didn't always want to be a cop, so they're more human or relatable, right?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01I'll let you take that because that's what you said and I stole it from you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, absolutely, because it goes back to our conversation before that you don't you don't need um everybody to fit that exact same mold because your community doesn't fit that same mold. So um, you know, you want the people that didn't know how they were gonna pay next month's rent and and to have those experiences because there's you know, if if if somebody's telling you the story or they're telling you your problem and you don't have any experience with that, it's it's harder to relate to that.
SPEAKER_01You need to have the compassion behind it too.
SPEAKER_02Yep. And I think there's I there's value to that. There's value to having some of that, some of that background. And um, whether you're a teacher or a construction worker or whatever your whatever your job was, that's that's part of what makes you who you are. So that was a really long answer to your short question. But that's great.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_02You look for the you look for the things that you can't train. Like, like um, if somebody comes in and says, Hey, I know how to do CPR, and that's awesome. But if you don't know how to do that, we can teach you how to do CPR.
SPEAKER_01But I can't literally a monkey can do CPR.
SPEAKER_02But I can't teach you how to be a good person. Right. Nobody can teach you how to be a good person.
SPEAKER_00So it's more character.
SPEAKER_01Has it always been that way, or is that something that you think that you um uh maybe maybe promoted more for your yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, you give me way more credit than what I would than what I deserve. That I it's every that's how it's always been. I like to think so. And I don't and and I hope that I don't have rose-colored glasses on, but I really like to think so. I I I think that um trying to hire good people and moral people and ethical people and whatever it is. I I mean I think that that's always been the case.
SPEAKER_01I agree. For the most part, it used to be kind of uh back in the day, because there were so many applicants, a lot of test score, right? You had to eliminate people.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there had to be like you know, before you'd even get to an interview, just the just you know how many good applicants you probably missed because they didn't pass the test?
SPEAKER_01The testing you know, I mean, like, hello, I would have blown the interview out of the water, but I never made it because I can't pass a written test because I'm stupid. But I mean, like, are the tests still hard? I mean, maybe they're not hard.
SPEAKER_05Um maybe they never were.
SPEAKER_01Have you changed your so back up a little bit? Shano recently, not recently, when I got hired, the reason why I got hired in Shano is because they switched their tests to report writing and scenario-based. Like, what would happen if you were on this call? How are you gonna handle it? No math, no bullshit that like you don't need. I know it says like if this person's an idiot or not, and I was always an idiot with the test scores, but I did really well on the scenario-based report writing, which I have terrible grammar, but I did really well on those tests. Um, and because uh thanks to Chief Cole, he said he wants common sense people in the doors instead of super book smart, is what he realized when he was doing it. He's like, I got really, really smart people, but then they like couldn't handle a scenario.
SPEAKER_05Couldn't talk to people and make a so are your tests the same?
SPEAKER_01Do you guys did you um switch up tests at all? I'm not applying, don't worry. Um no, I he gets my application.
SPEAKER_02No, I think I this is the same, it's not like I say the same thing over and over. I think there's always a balance. Yeah, you're right. I think I think that there is there is some so uh I went back to school recently. I went back to grad school. Because you're just bored? No, because I wanted to. So when I went to college, I took more advantage of the Parting? The social aspects.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02So and and I made really good friends and whatever. And that was when I went to school for computer science. So I went recently went back, it's been a long time since I've been in school. But then you you listened to some of the theory in some of the some of the classes, and I I think that that you can use that to make yourself better. Like, like not not not only understanding the common sense, but understanding why you think that that's common sense. Uh-huh. I don't know if I'm saying that the right way. I think so.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I get it.
SPEAKER_05So, what are you going back to school for?
SPEAKER_02So um, I was never big in, I was never a big fan of school. I liked some of my best friends in my life are from college, and and I learned stuff in school, don't get me wrong. Um, but then I went to I went back to grad school and I got my master's degree. Um, and then I I thought, like, hey, I wonder if I could have done this the first time when I went through and actually learned it and applied it and took more of that out of there. So um now I'm going back again only only because I want to try to understand how some of these things work.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_02Or um it's a doctorate in leadership studies from Louisiana State University at Shreveport. Nice, and it's been awesome. There's people from all over the country in it.
SPEAKER_01And really, yeah. Oh, I was talking to him about a certain politician. I said how good he is at deflecting questions. Like he is, you know who I'm talking about. I'm always like, God, he's good. Every time I hear him talk, I'm like, he has a way of taking a question that's hard and like twisting it. And John's like, that's in a 100% leadership training. Is like you're able to answer the question if something you want to explain, even though it really wasn't the question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. You know what I mean? Like you're like, wait, did I ask that?
SPEAKER_01But that was a good answer, but I don't even know if I asked that question.
SPEAKER_02Right, but it doesn't, it sometimes it doesn't matter because you can you can explain what you're trying to explain. Um, and I think that's just part of I don't know, communication or public, whatever you want to call it. But you know, like like if you if you do an interview at a at a car crash, the first question is, hey, what what caused this car crash? I don't know. We've been here for five minutes, and I don't know what caused the car crash. But what I really want to talk about is traffic safety. And I want to talk to you about the increase in you know fatal car accidents, especially at this intersection from blah blah blah.
SPEAKER_01It's good. You did a good job there.
SPEAKER_02Because because what the message that we want to get out is safety, be safer when you're driving. You know, put down the cell phone, buckle up, don't drink a drive. It's all of those things that that that you really want to try to say, and then you can keep saying them over and over again, but but um when you when you apply it to something that you see in front of you, it I think it makes more makes more of an impact. Right. Like, hey, I don't want to come to another one of these fatal car crashes ever again for the rest of my career. I don't want to come to another fatal car crash.
SPEAKER_05Um go ahead. Go ahead. You finish that thought because I'm gonna veer off in another direction.
SPEAKER_02We were I was thinking about this the other day. So in I don't think I'll say it in my career, but in in let's say 20 years, I think there's realistically going to come a time where we don't have any more car crashes, we don't have any more speeding tickets, we don't have any more drunk driving.
SPEAKER_01Because of like computerized cars, that's not when he has his old car.
SPEAKER_02Well, right. I said it's not gonna happen for right here. But but if you have if if every car is an autonomous vehicle, or it we were in um I was in I was in Texas with some friends a couple of months ago, and they have they have these cabs that don't even have a driver in them. So you get in the passenger seat and the car drives you to wherever you want to go. Now I don't know that I completely trust the computer yet, but but if that thing ends up being every car everywhere, well, now you never have another speeding ticket, you never have another drunk driving crash, you never have another fatal car accident. It's interesting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and scary.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, then what does the future look like then?
SPEAKER_05Cops are robots, then you're gonna have Terminator, flying cars, flying cars, it's gonna be lights up in the sky, the roads.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna see what time it is. I have to get kids at 1150.
SPEAKER_05You got 10 minutes.
SPEAKER_01We got 10 minutes.
SPEAKER_05How do you handle like what are the things that you do? What are your outlets?
SPEAKER_01Um, I have a lot of them.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. No.
SPEAKER_01You sold it?
SPEAKER_02I did. So did we.
SPEAKER_05I did. Yeah, we're lame too.
SPEAKER_02It was hard to um my wife didn't want to strap a babysit to the exactly.
SPEAKER_05We couldn't strap five of them to it, so it was time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know what? Um, no, we do the maple syrup in spring, and and um we have we have a bunch of acreage, and there's always work to do out there. And um I'll golf or we'll you know, we'll do a good golfer. No, is anybody?
SPEAKER_05No.
SPEAKER_02I would say I'm not a good golfer, I work for a living. It's so hard.
SPEAKER_05I know. I said I just said that. I'm like, if only if only I could do this every day and figure out a way to make money, then I maybe would get good at it.
SPEAKER_01Professional golfer. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, but but you know, you do that kind of stuff, and um, there's some of those days where you go home and you just want to work out for an hour and have that separation between between work and where you're going after this.
SPEAKER_01Cammy, do you have any follow-up question? And and do you have anything you want to add? You didn't even want to be here, so it's not that I didn't want to be here.
SPEAKER_02I don't know that I'm interesting enough.
SPEAKER_01I think you're super. Don't you think he's interesting? This episode's great. It is a great episode, and she would be on it. I would I could read her face usually.
SPEAKER_05Body language is totally different when it sucks.
SPEAKER_01When she or when she's it's like, okay, but thanks for coming in.
SPEAKER_05It was more relaxing than I think. I told you.
SPEAKER_01I told you, it's like you forget that you're on.
SPEAKER_05I I feel better after these.
SPEAKER_01He needs therapy.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, probably.
SPEAKER_01Because I mean, he always feels better after he talks. I'm like, Do you need therapy?
SPEAKER_05I need to talk more, I guess. It's the only time when she lets me get a word in.
SPEAKER_01All right. Well, thanks, John, for coming on. Yeah, thank you for being here. Appreciate it. All right. Thanks, everybody. See you next Tuesday.