Beans & Banter
We are Keith and NiCole Fischer, owners of The Mill in Bonduel, Wisconsin. The Mill is a coffee lounge, bourbon retailer, and boutique. But more than that, it’s a gathering place for numerous people, full of countless stories. Join us as we dissect our
Beans & Banter
Data Centers in Wisconsin: Fact, Fear & the Future with WisconsQuinn
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From environmental impacts to economic promises, data centers have become one of Wisconsin's biggest emerging topics. Quinn of @WisconsQuinn joins us for an honest discussion about the concerns and unanswered questions surrounding this rapidly growing industry.
This is an eye-opening episode.
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- https://www.tiktok.com/@wisconsquinn?_r=1&_t=ZT-98aVcaNqFtm
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This is insane, and most people don't know this. Um, most government officials don't know this, the built they signed. Data centers get tax breaks. They do not pay sales tax if they qualify. Do you know what they don't pay sales tax on? Everything. Literally everything. If you look at the list of what is qualified.
SPEAKER_07But then, like, how does it benefit the community? The community gets sh from it. Correct. So why is that okay?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. But let me here are some of the things that are on the list that data centers do not pay sales tax on. Electrical outlets, servers, CPUs, mechanical equipment, electricity, and my personal favorite, supplies.
SPEAKER_06Oh, that's broad.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, supplies is just on the list. And it's not like it's applicable just for when they're building. It is applicable for everyone.
SPEAKER_00You are feeling close to me. You tell me. You know don't feel me. Tell me freely walk in your okay.
SPEAKER_07Hi, my name is Nicole Fisher.
SPEAKER_01I'm Keith.
SPEAKER_07Fisher. And you are now watching Beans. I want said beers. Beans and banter.
SPEAKER_01Um maybe a couple beers too.
SPEAKER_07Okay.
SPEAKER_01The morning is young.
SPEAKER_07The morning is young. Um, and we have a special guest today. Her name is Quinn. Quinn, what's your last name?
SPEAKER_02Natsuki.
SPEAKER_07Natsky. Yes. Polish.
SPEAKER_02Uh, yep, Polish. I'm Polish. Uh, if you're from the area, uh, which you guys are, um, if you know a Natsuki, that is relation? That's us. Okay.
SPEAKER_07Um well, the reason why we have you on today, or the reason why we have her as a guest, is because she's very informed on data centers. And we had a politician on um who we do like, but he didn't have a lot of knowledge on it, which I think is the common thing, is that it's a lot of people are like, I don't know yet enough. And but like what I'm my our fear is that's not good enough to not know enough because before you know it, you're gonna be driving down the highway and see some data center, which is in yeah, what is that town?
SPEAKER_01Um Fort Washington.
SPEAKER_07Fort Washington. You know what I mean? Like, like, what is that?
SPEAKER_01Like, and that's like somebody hurried up and did it before people were informed almost.
SPEAKER_07Your cousin's losing his mind about that.
SPEAKER_01It's like right across the room.
SPEAKER_07It's rightfully so, because he was pissed because it was a lot of late night meetings that no one was informed about. And so um, I really also like, I'm gonna say right away, what I do like about this is that I think politically we don't align. However, we do align very much on this, and it just is such an awesome thing to see. There's so much division in politics right now, rightfully so on both sides. Um, but there is a common ground with this that you will see that in Epstein list, right? That's a common ground too. That at when it's all said and down done, most reasonable people have the same interest, right? And the common good of humans and our well-being. So I absolutely love that there is maybe we don't see eye to eye in everything, but I completely agree with every word you say when it comes to the data centers. And I just I think that's a really healthy relationship. Yeah. And a uh eye-opening thing that this isn't a Republican thing, this isn't a Democrat thing. No, this is a thing and it's happening. And you know what I mean? Like something needs to get done. Do you not agree that it's coming from both sides?
SPEAKER_02It is, it is actually one of the few good things that I've seen on these data centers is the amount of people who do not align, who can sit down in a table and realize. Um, I refer to it as like the weaponization of the two-party system, in regards to like you people just politicians just want to pit people, their voters against each other as opposed, you know, and then and then they just do whatever they want. Um, where in reality, whether or not I agree with how somebody wants to get there, we all just want the best. And so um it is I have had conversations with people who are like very, very far on both ends of the spectrum. Like both times I was like, hmm, uh interesting, right? Interesting take. Um but both in all those conversations, they've been like, huh, that isn't what I thought this, you know, my politician would have voted for.
SPEAKER_07100%.
SPEAKER_02And that is one of the things that I'm really passionate about is like we need to stop voting for people because of the letter. Yes. And we need to ask questions and then also hold them accountable.
SPEAKER_07100%. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because we do, I cannot tell you the number of politicians who voted for these data center laws who who have outright said they don't know. They don't know anything about them.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and like that makes me sick. Yeah, because that's huge. There's um, and I know we're like veering off already, but there's some lady that has like a horse range down south, and she was showing her creek, creek. Is it a creek or a crick?
SPEAKER_01You could see say either way. I think it's fine.
SPEAKER_07A crack that is not no, she's a friend of mine. Is she okay, and there's no longer water going through it?
SPEAKER_02So it it fluctuates regularly. Um, some days it'll be super high, some days it'll be super low. It does not correspond with the rain. Um, it'll have like a weird smell some days. She has, I mean, she takes water samples almost every day. And is it toxic? They don't know because so this is so her, you know, she's gone pr very viral. Her name is Miley. Um, she where her sort of virality came from was she spoke at a state um like hearing level about data centers. And her whole thing is nobody will help her figure out what's wrong. Um, they believe her creek comes from an underground water river system, and the where the entrance to that river is is on the meta land. And the DNR for the entire state of Wisconsin has one person devoted to like geology. For context, Wisconsin has one of the most unique geological, like structure, what have you, in the country. And there's one person who can come out and help her. And she has just been passed off. She's been fighting this for over a year and just trying to get answers. But we we know where the problems are coming from, but like she reaches out to the DNR, she reaches out to her representative.
SPEAKER_07You think DNR would be super concerned about this? I mean, they count fish, basically.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm sure they are, but like she said, there's one person, so like it's it's you can't like just start adding, as you know. Yeah, I can't just add people to my police department on a whim because all of a sudden we got to and it's happening so fast they're not gonna be able to catch up.
SPEAKER_07That's that's the point. Yeah. Who's behind all this?
SPEAKER_01The recruit really wealthy break it way down here and ask, where did you come from? Where do you live?
SPEAKER_07Where did you believe in aliens?
SPEAKER_01No, like let's establish a little bit one day.
SPEAKER_02My mom and dad kissed, uh, and then I'm where did you grow up? Uh so I'm from Whitwin, Wisconsin. It is a single road, bunch of houses. Um, our claim to fame is we had a really big parade, Fourth of July parade, like it got national attention.
SPEAKER_07What more than Bonda Well, Wisconsin?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Do you guys always have a parade every fourth, or is it just one up until COVID, they and then they ended up moving it to a different uh local community.
SPEAKER_07Um, why did it make national news? What did you guys do?
SPEAKER_02It is huge. It so there are probably more people that attended that parade than drove through Whitwin the rest of the year.
SPEAKER_07That's so cool.
SPEAKER_02You can see probably three-quarters of a mile, like each direction. And at we used to, so obviously our house is right on the road. We used to have people show up at our house at like three, four in the morning and put their chairs on our lawn because we had big trees, and everywhere else, like the road didn't have any trees at all. So my dad would have to the night before like set up no parking and like blankets and stuff. We would have people just walk into our house to like use the bathroom.
SPEAKER_07Okay. So weird. Yeah, that's nuts.
SPEAKER_02Um, but you'd like look out at like six o'clock and there'd be nobody there, and you'd look back out again at like 8 30, and it's you cars and cars and cars, like three-quarters of a mile down.
SPEAKER_01Um, so what brought like how did how did you get so invested in the yeah, good question. Yeah, like where did this come from?
SPEAKER_07Um what's your background?
SPEAKER_01I guess maybe that would help too.
SPEAKER_07And in side note, I don't care if you're not don't have a like a degree in your knowledge, because I don't believe that a degree makes you the most knowledgeable, knowledgeable person in the room. So just whatever your experiences and knowledge on this, I want to hear it because you seem very knowledgeable. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Um, yeah, so I grew up in uh I went to school in Sock Prairie and I went to college uh in Duluth, Minnesota. Um, I kind of studied psychology. Uh I ultimately realized that I like drugs and drinking more than I liked going to class.
SPEAKER_07So yeah, well, that will do it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, didn't graduate.
SPEAKER_01Nope. Um and then better though now.
SPEAKER_07Are you still having a good time with drugs and alcohol? Oh no. No.
SPEAKER_02My husband and I met and I got pregnant, and let me tell you.
SPEAKER_07That sobered you up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you you aren't as fun when you have Gerald. You're not as fun. You're not as fun. Bedtime at 7:30 is my favorite. Um, yeah, so I came back to Madison area and I ended up working kind of service industry jobs for a while. Um, and I've always done social media. Um just we were just saying how uh when you work for a small business and you're like a young kid, you're just like you are now the social media person. Um and so when I came back, I was kind of doing social media-ish for all of these restaurants, and um I ended up working for a beer bar down in Madison, Milwaukee area. And I was just like talking about beer, and one day they asked me if I would help teach beer classes, so like teaching the employees about beer, and they had asked a couple other people that were far more qualified, in my opinion. And I was like, oh my god, they cannot know that I don't know what I'm talking about. Uh so I ended up just like devouring everything I could about beer, and I ended up getting what's called a Cicerone, it is essentially like a beer smollier. Uh, so I worked in beer marketing for a while. And uh again, kind of continuing the social media thing, and I had an in uh an Instagram platform devoted to like making beer approachable. Because at the time, this was 2015, 16-ish. The only people in beer were white men with beards, and it was like such a Why'd you point at me? Because you're because you have a beard, but you're not white.
SPEAKER_01Pretty tan.
SPEAKER_02You're pretty tan. Um, it was funny, and so it was like uh, you know, like it was so so hard, like as a woman, uh but any sort of minority, whatever your definition is, to like break into that and have a conversation that didn't feel incredibly condescending. Um, and so I kind of started this Instagram regarding that, uh, which kind of like forayed me into social media. Um, and then fast forward to 2020. Uh, my daughter was born January 13th, 2020, which means the day of her eight-week vaccine appointment is the day everything shut down. Uh, like, and so I my maternity, I had a really rough pregnancy, and then my maternity leave turned into COVID. So, like mentally, I was not thriving. I spent a lot of time watching.
SPEAKER_01You were ready to go back to work.
SPEAKER_02I was. Uh I was. Actually, I don't know that I was because listen, naps every day were pretty great.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, but I spent a lot of time sitting at my front window, like watching my neighbors. And I like text my husband and be like, I'm pretty sure over there getting a divorce. I saw a lot of hangers coming out of the house. Listen, I was right. Really? Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Good for you. That's awesome. You're like our cat. If our cat could write a book, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02I thought you're gonna say he's like one of those like deaf cats, except for divorce. He just like shows up at the city. Yeah, shows up at somebody's house. Um, so I ended up making a TikTok um out of sheer boredom, and it was a lot of fun. And I had a couple videos uh kind of go viral, and so I just kind of had this account for a a while, a couple years, and I had like a decent platform, like 20-ish thousand followers. That's decent. Yeah, and it was just like uh I had no real theme, it was just sort of like talking about kids and and talking about Wisconsin and kind of just like my takes on stuff. Um, and then my uh husband's family is from Janesville, and so in October is when it came out that Janesville had entered into a closed door meeting with a data center because there is an NDA involved, and that's kind of what what led me to here.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and that's you said October of 2020?
SPEAKER_0725, sorry. Sorry. Okay, she started back in 2020. Yeah, I and we we had to follow her journey to here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Oh, I'm like, she started, okay.
SPEAKER_01I didn't know when I didn't know when that meeting was.
SPEAKER_07Oh, yeah, because you were thinking it started way back in 2020. You're like, holy buckets because that's what I thought initially too. Okay, so then you realized this isn't good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so um I would love to say that that first like first thing I was like, man, I'm passionate about this. But honestly, uh I got a lot of traction on that video. So I was like, all right, well, we gotta jump on it.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, you're like, I guess I'm passionate. Yeah. And then now you're like, I'm legit passionate about that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, so one uh the reason why I made that video is because one thing that I always had that and continue to be passionate about is like uh again, the weaponization of the two-party system. And when either side takes something that is just like administrative, like something that everybody does and makes it like extremely political, like a very partisan issue. And so one of the things I've always spoken about is being like, okay, so this actually isn't that weird. Like this is something that is always done, no matter who, whatever. And so I when I heard that the council went into that closed door meeting, I was like, hmm, that's that feels weird. Uh, but when I looked it up, I was like, oh, that it's actually pretty normal. Um which doesn't make it okay, but like, what's this is the story behind it. Um and what ended up, I ended up getting a lot of people saying, you need to talk about Beaver Dam, you need to talk about Beaver Dam. Um, and which was really, really interesting to me because I live close enough to Beaver Dam where like we it's not uncommon for us to drive by. And I remember in the summer of 25, so a couple months prior to that October, uh, I remember driving by and saying, Oh, I heard Beaver Dam is gonna get like a Target Distribution Center. Like, that sounds really cool. Um, and I like I heard that from a wide variety of people that Target Distribution Center. And I when I looked into it, it was a data center, and it was abundantly clear that they did their best to suppress any conversation about what it is. Um, there was an NDA involved, um, but also like nobody knew what was happening. Beaver Dam happened before poor Washington. So the Beaver Dam stuff was really sort of the like first uh Mount Pleasant technically was the first.
SPEAKER_07Um but Beaver Dam's was a distribution center for Target.
SPEAKER_02No, so that's just like what the rumor was. The old it was an AI center. Yeah, yes. Oh yes.
SPEAKER_07Um how big is that one?
SPEAKER_02Huge and beaver dam? Yeah, oh it's and they're they've just approved another one.
SPEAKER_07Who's approving this? The mayor and the board of but the people don't get it like like legally, they don't have a say?
SPEAKER_02No. Um, there's a variety of different reasons for that. Uh that are all ridiculous in my opinion. Um, but yeah, ultimately the people who pass the zoning um and like permitting and whatever is gonna be the whatever the municipal government is, so the board, the mayor, whatever type of thing.
SPEAKER_01City council.
SPEAKER_02City council, yeah.
SPEAKER_07So what do you what do you what do you think should happen? Like, because we have to advance with technology, right? That's the argument, right? And um, we don't want to be behind, right? But how do we do that to not do what we're doing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so first of all, a moratorium across the board because we there's so much that we don't know, yeah. Um, and that and additionally, there's so many layers of issues that need to be addressed in order to fully deal with all of the data center stuff, um, which is why my my first step is always moratorium uh and a statewide one, because in Shawnee County, for example, that moratorium that hasn't been passed or it's still like it just looks like it's gonna, um, that only covers unincorporated areas of Shawnee County. So Shawnee, Bonduel, like if they have a village board and a zoning, they can still pass one. Um, and additionally, they can annex from an unincorporated community and then build one in that unincorporated community. That's actually what happened in Beaver Dam uh with Miley, the woman with uh the horses in the creek. She's not a Beaver Dam resident, but they annexed that land. She did not have any say in the map, uh, which is ridiculous.
SPEAKER_07Right. Now let's talk about people's tap water. I was seeing videos of that from people from Wisconsin and the water coming out of the faucet look disgusting. Is that real news?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that's Beaver Dam as well.
SPEAKER_07Um, and then what are they saying about it? Nothing. And so this is like Aaron Brockovich. Kinda, yeah. Um I love that movie. Do you like that movie? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01She got excited when we said it. Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_07It's like Aaron Brockovich. Yeah. But it's like in 10 years from now, they're gonna have all this Aaron Brockovich stuff, like cancer and whatever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we're I mean, we're already seeing that. Um, in Washington state, maybe it's Oregon, Oregon State, excuse me. Um, they just there was just a lawsuit settled from a community. They had one of the first big data centers in the Pacific Northwest, and there were like crazy rates of like miscarriages and like health problems or whatever, and everybody was like, it's the data center. And they ended up settling for, in my opinion, an obscenely low amount of money. But like we're finally starting to see what this is. And how long ago was that one? Like, I want to say like mid teens, maybe mid to late teens. Um, but they started seeing the issues right away. Um, but yeah, so in Beaverdam, they're having water issues. There's there are also two wells that have dried up. Um and and the So, Miley, for example, um, she had a study done, study done about her water. And Meta was like, we'll pay for it. We got it. Um, and I have I have no no background in hydrology or any of that. As we discussed, it was drugs uh and drinking. Um, and Miley got the report back and she was like, it just doesn't look right. Like, do you mind just taking a peek at it? So they did the report. First of all, they said they were gonna do a hydrology report, meaning they would test the water. No, uh, they basically looked at like the sloping of the area and like how potentially um water would move.
SPEAKER_07Like uh to blame it on environmental stuff instead of right what is actually going on.
SPEAKER_02Um, so what they ended up doing is called a desktop report, meaning they looked at Google, they just found resources and said, can't be that. Um honestly. Um, and then they ended up so first of all, they did a desktop report. One of the resources they use, which is in fact the one of the most recent resources, was from the 80s for like geology, which I kind of get. It's not like rocks change a whole lot. Well, prior to data centers. Um, but they um also at one point it says, uh, like we asked Meta to report on this, and apparently in construction, they are doing like weekly checks to make sure everything is up to code. And then at the back of the report, it says the whatever the company who was doing like the report, they were like, um, we actually have not checked any of these things. So they just took Meta, uh, which in a children's movie would be like evil incorporated, like uh that took them at their word. Uh turns out the company that was doing the checks is this like a sub-company of the contractor.
SPEAKER_01So, like, why would they say anything negative about their yeah, right?
SPEAKER_02Uh, and the company that was doing the report is owned by BlackRock, who had just recently purchased them and has an insane amount of money invested in specifically Meta's AI, and it's just like it's stuff like that, where it's like they have asset and they act like they have done the greatest thing in the world, and that sorry, we don't know what it is.
SPEAKER_07What does the um future of Shano County look like to you as a person that's looking at um it from the outside?
SPEAKER_02So, for first of all, we have the state as a whole. Um, if we look at the state of Virginia, which in the United States has the most data centers.
SPEAKER_07Why do you think that is?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think because of the proximity to DC um and all of the like tech government stuff in that area. Um so they have over 500 data centers. Holy buckets. Over 150 of them are hyperscale data centers.
SPEAKER_07What does that mean to somebody like me?
SPEAKER_02They are the ones that are so a data center.
SPEAKER_07I was gonna say to someone that doesn't know, but I'm like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02No, yeah. So a data center can be as small as a microwave. It is basically just a bunch of servers. And this is like, I know there will be somebody who's like, well, yeah, we give medical advice all the time. Oh, perfect.
SPEAKER_01Uh not a doctor.
SPEAKER_07Yep. So we're we we are okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, so basically it's just like a you know, like a bunch of servers. So you can have one that's the size of a microwave, you can have one that's um like a refrigerator, a closet, a big room, uh, all the way up to these like literal thousands of acres buildings. And those are the ones Port Washington. Right. Port Washington, Beaver Dam, uh, Mount Pleasant are all hyperscale. Um, and those are the ones that are like loud and doing an incredible humming sound I hear is like drives people insane.
SPEAKER_07If it if they put one up and scared my birds away, I would lose my mind. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Just because of the birds. Because of my birds.
SPEAKER_07I mean, well, all of the stuff.
SPEAKER_01But mostly the birds.
SPEAKER_02But that how annoying is that? Yeah. And and the other, so in regards to the humming, one thing that people don't totally realize is the physical damage.
SPEAKER_07Yes, the daycare, yeah. I saw that there's a daycare center that has to now move because of the long-term damage, not even long-term, that many decibels for that long of time. Like the children's ears are like, what are they supposed to do with that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but even if you can't hear it, like even if even if physically hearing it doesn't bother you, that like vibration. Conscient, yeah, and being hit with those waves constantly does incredible damage to your body. Um, I like to think about it like a like a dog whistle. Like, even if you can't hear a dog whistle, it still hurts. Like it's very similar to that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um so next thing. I'm trying to remember where I was.
SPEAKER_07I know, girl.
SPEAKER_02Oh, the um so a hyperscale hyperscale, yeah. Hyperscale data center is is those like thousand, whatever. Yep. Um what where were we before that?
SPEAKER_07Um what what you started with Wisconsin because I said what is Sean O'Connell?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's right, that's right. Um, so in Virginia, they have 150-ish hyperscale data centers. Wisconsin has more accessible water and a cheaper grid. So when I say that a data center is coming to your community, it's because we we know, we've seen it. Like they've essentially tapped Virginia at this point, in my opinion. So now they're coming to places like Wisconsin and Iowa, Minnesota, where water was Virginia, in your opinion, blindsided?
SPEAKER_07I would say so. From because that was fairly like data center now is like becoming known, right? Yes. And I would say in the last six months.
SPEAKER_01Why do we need so many?
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that's kind of uh a uh touchy topic for some people. So so, my personal opinion, I don't like data centers. I also think that they are technically necessary, just given the technology, not necessarily hyperscale. Um, I also think that they can be built way better. Uh, I don't think we need this many either. But when we have companies who are overwhelmingly scraping data for everything.
SPEAKER_07And can we also side note talk about? I saw it was a real and I'm like, holy. Remember? Save trees, electronic train, electronic pay, electronic this, da-da-da. They're like, look at that. We're saving trees, and now it's like we have this huge system and our environment. Like digital carbon footprint that is gonna kick our asses over trees and mailing in a check and mailing, you know what I mean? Having a receipt in your hand, yeah. Although receipts are toxic. Um, but digital's not the way.
SPEAKER_01The carbon copy ones are.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, the carbon copy anyone's so that's for our different podcasts. We don't want to take up our time.
SPEAKER_02Um I think for any any technology, uh there has to be a there's gotta be a form of ethical use. Yes. But still an use, right? Um, and that goes all the way back to like caveman days when they figured out that they could hunt with a bow and arrow. Like they used they could hunt more efficiently, yeah. But they had to be ethical about what they're putting it.
SPEAKER_07You have a good way of putting things.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Doesn't you? Um when we are in positions where we're making the transition from like paper to digital, and then um uh social media away from like newspaper, you know, like that sort of thing. Like, there's a way to do that that is great. There's also a way to do that that is incredibly detrimental. Unfortunately, I'm gonna put on my little capitalist conspiracy theory hat here. We love that one. I'm I'm good at that one. Uh unfortunately, all of those things are always tied with making money.
SPEAKER_07Did Erica Kirk know her husband was gonna get murdered? Absolutely. Yes, okay, we're on the same page. Go. Listen. That was the Theo Vaughn thing. Do you think Erica Kirk?
SPEAKER_02Like, I love that little bleep of him. I've spent so much time watching the slow-mo, not in a weird microphone.
SPEAKER_07Yes, it is absolutely and then they concrete over it. And do you know who paid for that job and demanded it? The FBI.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, or the have you seen the the like SUV?
SPEAKER_07How the plastic all over? Yeah, girl, yes. You know who I love? Candace Owens. She's a little insane, and sometimes I'm like, holy crap! But then, like, sometimes I'm like, if I die, hire her. She will figure the shit out. No, truly.
SPEAKER_02Uh she's a bulldog, she's bonker's town, uh, in in my opinion. And me and her have not aligned a lot. Oh, I believe it, yeah. Um, right. However, uh she's on a scent. She's on a scent. Also, like I do feel like I owe her and maybe some other conspiracy theorists an apology because like prior to 2020, yes, prior to 2020, I was like, You're nuts. Okay, like I don't think that's happening. I know.
SPEAKER_07And like no, everybody's like the Great Awakening. Yeah, everybody's like, whatever. Like then now the government's like, hey, there's we have aliens. We're like, bullshit. You know what I mean? Like, if you're saying it, we don't believe you.
SPEAKER_02I'm like, oh, okay, we have aliens, but let's talk about everything else that you had to weigh where you were like, it's it's easier for us to cop to aliens than to talk about Epstein's list.
SPEAKER_07Yep, yep. Let's let's not charge anybody, but let's talk about aliens. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_07All right, sorry. Um, where were we before I asked about Erica?
SPEAKER_02Uh so to circle back to Shawnee County. Yes. Um, I hesitate to say this because I have only seen sort of light proof of this. Uh, I would not be surprised if there are conversations about a data center coming to Shawnee.
SPEAKER_07Um like the city of Shawn. Oh, people are gonna lose their minds.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Uh I just saw uh I spend a lot of time looking at the Public Service Commission, the PSC, and they have a lot of like that's where companies will submit their like requests for improving substations or putting in Didn't they table it or something?
SPEAKER_07You said there was something positive that happened in Shawnee in a meeting.
SPEAKER_02Oh, the moratorium?
SPEAKER_07Yeah. So what does that mean?
SPEAKER_02That means that depending on how it's written, uh, a data center or specific zoning cannot happen until for X amount of time. So Dane County, for example, is considering a moratorium right now and it's 18 months. Um Shawnee County, my understanding is that it has moved forward. If there's a few steps um to do it, because it has to go through like the zoning board usually, and then like a plan.
SPEAKER_07Like it's a lot of these county officials have to approve it. Yes. Do you think that's gonna happen in Shawn County? I think there's a lot of people that like fish here and like the woods, you know what I mean? Like it's very woodsman.
SPEAKER_02So I think I think it would, but that being said, um, so one of the biggest reasons that data centers, one of the biggest reasons that I can explain without being a little conspiracy theorist slash making assumptions. Um in Wisconsin, it's really difficult to raise the tax levy for a community. Um, which if you don't know what a tax levy is, it's like the bucket, the size of the bucket that you can use to pay for city things.
SPEAKER_06Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um, it's really, really difficult to raise it. And one of the only ways to raise it is based on net new construction. And um net new construction, the very, very light term of that is new construction. There's like a little bit of math regarding like buildings torn down versus buildings that are built and whatever. But basically, oh my god. It's okay.
SPEAKER_07Unless you're dying, then it's bad. It'd be a first for us.
SPEAKER_02I'm too uh polite to admit, I'm like very Midwest. I would like maybe I would die. I would I'm sorry, I'm dying. Oh I'm sorry, I Oh no, I'd be like, no, I'm fine, I'm fine until like I turn blue.
SPEAKER_01I'll muscle through. I'll muscle through.
SPEAKER_02I'm good, I'm good. Never admit it. Um so what what happens is um the the amount that you can raise your tax levy is is based on the value of the net new construction. So if a community is worth if the community itself is valued at $100,000 and a net new construction comes in at one second. Okay, um and a net new construction of $10,000 comes in, they can raise their uh tax levy that whatever that percentage of that valuation is. So I cannot do math. That'd be 10%. 10%. Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_04You're welcome.
SPEAKER_02Um I I picked those numbers so it'd be easy for me. And then I'm at a numbers go. And then I immediately just um and so the average rate of net new construction in Wisconsin is like around 1% per year or less. Um, and so when you have these communities like Beaver Dam, for example, where they are really not getting a whole lot of money and new businesses in, and then Meta comes in and says, we will invest 15 billion with AP dollars into your community, and they're worth maybe a million dollars.
SPEAKER_07So it's hard to turn down, it's hard to turn down.
SPEAKER_02You also, when it comes to net new construction, you can only accept it that year. So it's not like they could take that valuation and spread it out. The problem with that is they have immediately like made it impossible for them to raise their tax levy again.
SPEAKER_01Because with that, it'll never go beyond that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. They're you know, you come in with billions of dollars where you're at like 600%, where you can raise your tax levy. And then the only way that it can be competitive is if a company comes in at higher than six billion dollars, and it's high enough that it's gonna raise like a comparable rate. Um, which when it's data, like so. Then what it is is it's another data center, and then another data center, and then it's sort of this like cycle where people don't want to live here anymore, so then the land opens up, and it's just like that's how in Virginia they have data center alley, which is just you look at a map and it's just like all right there.
SPEAKER_01So, what are the things that you know of that are detrimental to environment or the community? Because I I mean everybody hears about the water usage, and then um, but uh what about like energy? Um, let's talk about that, like the and then the effects of it in a community.
SPEAKER_02I know I know you said everybody knows about the water, but something that's really important, something that gets me a little heated is everybody says uh oh closed loop that uses less water.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, bullshit fine.
SPEAKER_07I don't know what you're saying.
SPEAKER_02So, right?
SPEAKER_01So uh some data centers use reuse the water instead of like taking a whole bunch of new stuff and then putting it back somewhere.
SPEAKER_02So uh in a closed loop system, essentially you have cold water that runs past what needs to be cooled, and then the water is hot, and that heat is released through like uh um it's okay.
SPEAKER_07Oh, I'm sure. Oh, yeah, the blender. That's not okay. You're new here and I'm not, and I thank you.
SPEAKER_02Um, so that heat will be released through like a heat tower or some heat release, and then the water is sent back down and it is cooled off, and then it is drawn back up, rinse and repeat, right? Which sounds great in in theory. In practice, one, they have to use a bunch of chemicals to treat that water in order to make sure that things like biological growth and calcification are not happening. Those chemicals are forever chemicals. And eventually, due to things like evaporation and just like standard, you know, like leaks, things that happen, um, the they have to release all of that because it becomes more chemical than water. And that's called blowdown. And blow down is essentially just like I said, more chemical than water. And what they do with the blowdown is they can release it into the aquifer, they can send it to the municipal wastewater, or they can release it into the river, like they have been trying to do in Ohio. Um, the chemicals that are in that are forever chemicals. And most, even if best case scenario goes into the wastewater treatment plant, most wastewater treatment plants cannot get can't get those out. So we are up here's a logging area. The logging uh uh business what like released a bunch of chemicals in the water that they are still cleaning up to this day, uh like in the rivers and stuff, and we would literally just be doing the same, the same thing. Um, but another thing about closed loop is like I have government like newsletter documentation uh that is like trying to convince people to use data centers, and that it says that 25% of your like losing 25% of your water a month is not uncommon. Which is crazy that that's like a it's cool.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, ship sham. Yeah, ship shape, ship shaft.
SPEAKER_07I'm sober.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_07I yeah, words are hard. Um, so what are other things that are concerns?
SPEAKER_02The electricity is is a big one. Um that one is, I mean, there's certainly environmental consequences with that, um, especially like the the continued construction of these like big transmission lines. Um we often and are continuing to see more and more solar farms popping up where a data center is going to pop up, um, which I have I have mixed feelings about solar farms, but ultimately if the community doesn't want it, then that's it's not my business how I feel about them. Um which as a side note, in Wisconsin, I might have these numbers wrong, but I believe if a solar farm is uh less than a hundred acres, they have to get approval from the local community. If it is more than a hundred acres, they can just go to the PSC and get approval. Uh and the PSC, uh, which is a government government entity, uh, is often headed by a former uh energy company president.
SPEAKER_07For someone like me that doesn't know why it's bad to have a solar-powered farm. Why is it a negative thing? Because I think when people think of solar power, they think it you're being like renewable energy is like it's the best way.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think in the beginning, when I mean, because it's relatively new yet as well, a lot of people we didn't have a whole lot of info, right? We didn't have a whole lot of influence.
SPEAKER_07We were gonna get solar panels on our roof here. So solar panels is that bad? We don't want to do that anymore, do we?
SPEAKER_02Or do we no solar panels so do where it's uh solar panels, like personal use, are not a bad thing. Um, I think in Wisconsin they're a little different because of like sunlight. Yeah, that um, but also like the damage to the roof underneath the panels is like you would have sometimes you have to redo your roof before the panels pay for themselves.
SPEAKER_07Oh um, and so you're just a wealth of knowledge of a lot of random things. It I truly am, but don't ask me to go super deep into There's probably an abbreviation for what you have going on with how smart you are with random sh. Do you know what I mean? It's called autistic. Are you a little, but okay.
SPEAKER_01We all are a little.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_07Like when I someone's really smart, I'm like, they got something cool going on that they're just knowledgeable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I like to joke. That uh everybody's got a specific flavor of autism. So, like fish autism, everybody knows a fish autistic. Like they're they like to fish or they know a lot about fish tanks, you know? Okay, yeah. Yeah. Um, mine is uh specifically being right about everything. Um I don't so I don't like to talk unless I know what I'm talking about. Okay. Um because then I'm always right. Right. Uh but also just like getting hyper-focused on something, uh, which is it used to be beer and now it's data centers. Oh good for me. It's working. Yeah. So far, so good. Um, so the issue with solar farms is one, this sort of lack of conversation about it, how they just sort of show up. The other issue is a lot of times they can't get those hundred acres right next to each other. So you'll have five acres of these huge solar panels and then a farm, and then another three acres of solar panels, and then somebody else's house, you know, then they're surrounded by solar panels. Um, they also uh basically, my understanding, uh, and I'm not as knowledgeable about solar panels, so uh there's a medium chance I'm wrong, small chance I'm wrong. Uh uh the glass, because of the glass on them, that if it breaks, it can damage the ground. My understanding is the ground can't really ever be used again for anything.
SPEAKER_04Interesting.
SPEAKER_07Like for crops or anything, because it's like toxic then.
SPEAKER_02It's um toxic. But I mean, yes, there are chemicals in it, but also just like you know, it's kind of like if you spill glass on the ice bin. Like you you have to burn it. You have to burn it all because you don't know where it is.
SPEAKER_07Um, also, it's just such an Another good analogy, because now I'm thinking about if someone broke a glass in our ice bin, what would we do? We couldn't burn it. We'd have to get rid of all the ice and vacuum it.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's that's what yeah, that's what I used to call it is burning it.
SPEAKER_01Oh burn it to the ground. Okay, yeah, we wouldn't mean actually light it on fire.
SPEAKER_02Now, yeah, now I'm laughing that you think that I just like every time I break ice, I just like light a slight a cigarette and toss it.
SPEAKER_01Um the gasoline will burn.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, what we used to do is we used to pour grenadine so that nobody would use the ice, like if we couldn't burn it right away, so that everybody knew that there was something in it. Um good analogy though.
SPEAKER_07I love this. Bartended for a while. I've never broken a glass in a ice bin.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, geez.
SPEAKER_07Knock on wood.
SPEAKER_01She put that devil on us.
SPEAKER_07Okay, go on.
SPEAKER_02Um, it's also just like an incredibly inefficient use of land. Um, because so, like for example, in Madison, they have solar panels uh in a lot of the open land uh at the airport, like along the landing strip type of stuff, which I think is great. Like you have this open land that you can't use for anything else. Another thing like people talk about a lot is um parking lots or parking type of stuff. Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah. Um, and I know people who have them like personally, uh, or like farmers that will have maybe an acre, they'll do um sheep underneath them or chickens. Oh, because they can live underneath and they're you know they're kind of protected. Um, but I I those are kind of the the big issues that I'm aware of. I know there are concerns uh very similarly to data centers about health stuff, but I'm not super familiar with that. Um but the for me, my big thing is sort of like clarity in in development.
SPEAKER_01Um and so one thing that I wanted before we move on past that, because uh one thing I wanted to ask you is do you think that there's ever a chance that you could even produce enough solar energy to power a data center? Because it sounds like it's not even close. Like it offsets it so minutely.
SPEAKER_02To me, that's sort of like a tomato potato situation in regards to like, okay, we part of the reason why we don't want these data centers is because of the space that they take up. And the space that a solar farm would have to take up is would be too much.
SPEAKER_01Why can't they put them on top of the data center?
SPEAKER_02So that is something that some people are pushing for. Uh, but that's that's a great idea.
SPEAKER_01I think it's something to do with the heat.
SPEAKER_02It does have to do with the heat. Um, it also uh this is another thing that I I really hate about like data center marketing, is they'll say, Oh, you have to produce a certain amount of renewable energy on the property, but then you have to set up the infrastructure for those renewable energy sources, so it's like a double whammy. Yeah, it and it seems like it's such a good idea, you know, but so not to everybody.
SPEAKER_07But how do you handle this argument? Because obviously we use social media, and when you have the devil's advocate, like, oh yeah, saying that's rich coming from you know what I mean, like because I don't want data centers.
SPEAKER_01And but you don't use AI for your advertising.
SPEAKER_07I do use AI once in a while, like just for a reference and stuff like that. But like I don't definitely don't overuse AI. Don't but is that okay to say? I don't know. Like it if we if everyone is like responsibly using it, it terri I am very old. I have an old soul, so it terrifies me to think about where we're gonna be. What our landscape's gonna look like, not even landscape, but our life, like yeah, doctors, teachers, you know, I mean everything. Like it, I think we're heading in a really but is this something all old people say? Did old people say this about cell phones? Or cars? Do you know what I mean? Like I feel like it's always change is terrifying, but I feel like this beast is like next level.
SPEAKER_01I feel like it's the beginning of the end.
SPEAKER_07I do too.
SPEAKER_01So like that's how we I don't know.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I mean that's how we're gonna uh AI is gonna take over and take kill us all.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, uh I make my She asked AI that if they were gonna and it gave a very AI answer.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, you know, like, no, I'm not gonna kill you. I'm here to help you. Bullshit.
SPEAKER_02I I make my girl say thank you to Alexa because when Alexa takes over, they'll know, like she'll be like, Oh, these these people are playing.
SPEAKER_07Yes, then what then but I will if I am using Chat GBT for anything, I'm like, okay, thank you. You know what I mean? Because it's like, what happens? Yeah, you know, they're gonna be like, oh, she said thank you all the time. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Speaking of an Alexa story, I saw this video of this, like, I don't know what kind of bird, it's a big fluffy white one. I want to say, like a you know, Tom, Tom, I don't know, something like that.
SPEAKER_07Is there a bird called that?
SPEAKER_01It's a big, big ass fluffy white bird with like big feathers on top. Okay. Tom? Do you know? I don't know. I don't like two can.
SPEAKER_05What it's you can add, you could add it in. What bird? AI, what bird is a Tom with a fluffy.
SPEAKER_01I saw this video of this bird that will get up in the middle of the night and then fly, like flying all over the house, right? But it'll go into the hallway and it'll be like, Alexa, turn on. Is this a real real bird doing this? And you can hear its mom yelling at it. No, no, Alexa shut off. Oh, okay. And then it's like plays some music that it takes gets half of their conversation. Yeah, and then it's bouncing a bit.
SPEAKER_07Oh, that's so cool.
SPEAKER_01In the middle of the night.
SPEAKER_02Cockate deal? Maybe that might be a which is, I want to be clear, not this big.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. It's a big ass white bird.
SPEAKER_07Okay, so what is your argument with that? Like, is can people be responsible and is there a happy medium? I think so. I think so. So, first of all, um people could have limits each person.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So, first of all, um the data centers that are used for social media are very, very different than the data centers that are used for AI. Like the infrastructure is different, the energy needs are different. That being said, they, you know, like they are still energy intensive. Um, but to me, the sort of do you use AI conversation is similar to back when like recycling and like throwing away your garbage was really big. Um, and people were like, if you don't recycle a can or whatever, you are gonna kill a bunch of turtles. Like remember like cutting the type of thing? Yep. Um, when in reality, there's some statistic that's like the top 10 wealthiest people or businesses produce more pollution in one hour than an American does in their entire lifetime. So you using chat GPT and saying please and thank you are is very different than what is actually doing this damage.
SPEAKER_07I see what you're saying.
SPEAKER_02Um but also like it I think that there's a there is a place for AI. Um, for example, like research, animal testing, let's get rid of that.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um and and um medical, like like being able to pull in these very niche sort of things. And also with AI, AI is not new, you know, like Alan Turing and the first sort of computer during World War II is technically AI, it is artificial intelligence. Uh Google Translate, that's AI, Google image recognition, that's AI, Excel spreadsheets, that's AI. And so it is specifically this like unique generative thing. And the the generative part is like a little scary. The scarier part to me is like the amount of data that you have not consented to or you've inadvertently consented to uh being stored somewhere. Um, like for example, very quickly, I think within the next week or so, Google will be creating an avatar. Like if you use Google Suite, they will be creating an avatar of your likeness and you just automatically consent to it. You have to go in and say, no, thank you. Or how Meta, I don't know if they still do this, but it was my understanding that if you had Messenger that was connected to the Wi-Fi, it had access to every single device that was also connected to the Wi-Fi. Um, it you know, it's it's stuff like that that is really more concerning to me than the people who are using AI.
SPEAKER_07So it's not the it's not the little what do I look like as a golden retriever? Yes AI things. It's the big business.
SPEAKER_02It's the big business, yes, scraping, it's the companies that are are firing people to use AI. Uh Meta, what did our bourbon guys do?
SPEAKER_019,000 or 7 or 9,000 jobs.
SPEAKER_07They were watching what so our booze guy's friend worked for Meta and his buddy and 9,000 other people through Meta got terminated and they said, Hey, sorry, we're done with you. We've been following your keystrokes for the last two years. We have robots to replace you now. What? Yeah, yeah, and and that's well, and that's just it. When we do posts, we have to try to beat AI. We're not beating a person because like we can't technically well, we can, but they don't like alcohol sales. So if I have a boozy latte and now I finally figured it out, I have to beat a computer. I always thought it was a person that's like, oh, nope, nope, but we have to do like use caps, space it out. Yeah, you're beating a computer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, which is so that's I just told my secret. That is actually another kind of portion of what I do. I contract uh with small businesses that can't afford a marketing department, and I just like help them kind of with that sort of stuff. Um, and like people who look that up is very different. And um as kind of an aside to connect it to that, whenever people are like, oh, it's gonna create a bunch of jobs, it's like first of all, it's not, but let's let's argue that it is short-term ones, short-term ones, production, they're gonna watch your keystrokes and you'll be gone. But even if, let's just say perfect world, it does create a bunch of jobs here in Shawnee County, they are continuously laying people off in these corporate, like meta, Oracle, whatever, to afford the money that they're putting in to build this AI data structure. So at no, like at no point is it a net positive.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02Um, and then there's the whole bubble conversation. Oracle just had its worst day uh in 25 years since the dot-com bubble, like a week ago.
SPEAKER_07Who didn't? What Oracle, Microsoft. Oh why? Oh, because people aren't using it, they're using Chat GBT.
SPEAKER_02No, well, no, because because they're investing too much of their revenue uh into AI, similar to the dot-com bubble, um, without a similar, like comparable input coming in, and also because they are they're focusing so much on AI as opposed to continuing the like the rest of their business, uh, which is crazy to me because uh I don't know much about business, but I can tell you that that's not how that works. Uh so yeah, it's uh that's that is like the bubble is like another concern uh as well in regards to when that pops, which is soon, I think.
SPEAKER_05Can I add in another gripe about AI? Yeah. Well, personal gripe. So the um like the cost of hard drives and like RAM. So last year I could probably spend $175 on like a two-terabyte hard drive. It's a lot of memory, but not like a lot as it once was. But now that same hard drive is worth like $800 because of the RAM, the memory that is being because AI data centers are like buying up all the RAM backstock resources, whatever. So it's like within this line of work, having to figure out like hard drive space because AI is taking it all. Yeah, and you need a raise. That's a lot of data. I haven't bought those hard drives in a while.
unknownI would not.
SPEAKER_02Holy buckets. Um, and and then uh what ends up happening is you end up buying data space online that and that's what the whole push is, right?
SPEAKER_07All part of their plan. Let's pop up that they need us.
SPEAKER_02So part of the reason why that is is actually environmental. And this is one of the things that I'm a little concerned about is chip-making factories, they use an incredible amount of water because they take water, so they take three gallons of water and they have to make it what's called ultra-pure water. They have to remove everything from it. It's like more pure than distilled water, which creates like 50%. So three gallons of regular water goes down to one and a half gallons, and all they're doing is basically rinsing off these sheets of metal that they then like build into like a wafer for these chips, and they end up creating just like an insane amount of pollution because and unusable water. Um, and so one of the places in the world that had one of these factories, I want to say it was Thailand, but I'm not I don't quote me on that. Um, they are dealing with such a water shortage that Apple lost like 60% of its like stock oper like inventory stock opportunities because the water they weren't able to use water for this factory, um, which I think those are gonna end up coming here soon as well, because there's only one company that used to make those chips, but now like Meta is making a proprietary version and like that sort of thing as well. Um which yeah, that it goes back to like this creating this sort of like more and more expensive thing.
SPEAKER_07Kami, do you have questions for her before we wrap up a little bit? You are a wealth of knowledge.
SPEAKER_05She's like, yeah, okay. Um what can people do to kind of engage with the data center conversation, I guess, within their own community?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, so first of all, um getting getting knowledge uh that is not purchased, right? Um I don't get paid to do this. I pay for my own gas, pay for my own lodging, uh, which if you want to pay me. Uh um, but I I live in Madison, I live on the east side of Madison. I will never have a data center near me. I have literally no skin in the game if a data center shows up in Chadel County. But that's why I should be listened to, or other people similarly should be listened to, versus the guy in the electrical company versus the data center company versus the developer. And these are the people that are commonly being brought in to speak to these government like boards to sell it.
SPEAKER_07And it's like and then I think it helped that Charlie Barron's got his skin in the game too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Charlie has been such a great uh help. Have you been in contact with him at all? Yeah, awesome. I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that like Charlie thinks about me at all. We I like we have communicated, we've texted, but like uh this sorry Charlie if you're listening to this. He won't be no um yes, he will.
SPEAKER_01He subscribes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we probably not, but yeah, maybe uh we had two events that were like back to back that I was at. And the first one, he like, hey, how are you? Gave me a hug. And then like the next event was You're basically best friends. The next event was maybe a week later, and he was like, Oh yeah, I just got back from this event. Were you there? And I was like, You hugged, you're like, you hugged me. I was like, Yep, you gave me a hug. And he was like, Oh yeah, I'm sorry, and like he's busy, and I'm not offended by it at all, but like uh yeah, uh, but but he has done such a good job of like rallying people and just like bringing it to the forecast at a comedy level, yeah, and trust because he loves the Midwest, right? Yep, and he he also does a really good job of recognizing um like that he doesn't know a lot and that nobody knows a lot, which I really like really appreciate that at no point is it like none of us, most of us are not trying to pretend like we know everything.
SPEAKER_07Because there is, yeah, um there's so many unknowns.
SPEAKER_02There's so many unknowns, but that's the thing, it kind of going back to like if you are pretending that you know everything, then you are a liar, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um they used to tell people that were pregnant to keep smoking because it's more harmful to quit than it is to my grandma.
SPEAKER_07Always always well, she's not a live.
SPEAKER_01Well, and maybe that was a sig-up. We don't know.
SPEAKER_07Right, maybe it was a psy-up. Maybe it was a part of the plan.
SPEAKER_02Maybe that's why I with my second kid, I all I wanted was cigarettes, red wine, and oysters. Like literally the only thing. Girl, go to Maine. You can't have while pregnant. Right. I I was always like, I swear to God, yeah, I s I was like, I swear to God, I'm pregnant with a 60-year-old man going through midlife crisis because what is happening?
SPEAKER_01Just watch out for that red Corvette showing up in your driveway.
SPEAKER_02No kidding. I'd like black out.
SPEAKER_01Oh no.
SPEAKER_02I I have a younger wife all of a sudden.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Where'd she come from?
SPEAKER_01Oh no. Um it happened again.
SPEAKER_02I haven't I can't afford your college too. Um yeah, so that having some sort of sort of education is huge. Um being aware about who you're voting for and holding them accountable.
SPEAKER_07So do you see this as a more Republican or Democrat side and it's both sides? It's both sides. Yeah, that's what I see too, and it pisses me off. Overwhelmingly, there were I think six people in It's because it's money. Uh yeah. 100%.
SPEAKER_02There were in both sides. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Okay.
SPEAKER_02There were six people in the Wisconsin assembly, I believe, that did not vote for the law that gave data centers a bunch of tax breaks. And um the ever otherwise everybody else. I mean, the governor was all about it. The people who wrote the bill were because they probably don't know, right? They don't know.
SPEAKER_07So here's it's tied to money. And it's tied to money.
SPEAKER_02So here's the here's this is insane, and most people don't know this. Um, most government officials don't know this. The built they signed. Data centers get tax breaks, they do not pay sales tax if they qualify. Do you know what they don't pay sales tax on? Everything. Literally everything.
SPEAKER_07If you look at the list of what is qualified. But then, like, how does it benefit the community? The community gets from it.
SPEAKER_02Correct.
SPEAKER_07So why is that okay? I don't, I've I've been okay. This is what is happening. I am good at once. I'm gonna unplug that blender. I'm going down there and I'm gonna unplug it and bring it up here. It's gonna sit right here.
SPEAKER_02Um, yeah, I mean that's a great question, but let me here are some of the things that are on the list that data centers do not pay sales tax on. Electrical outlets, servers, CPUs, mechanical equipment, electricity, and my personal favorite, supplies.
SPEAKER_06Oh, that's broad.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, supplies is just on the list. And it's not like it's applicable just for when they're building, it is applicable forever.
SPEAKER_07And these and this is a private-owned correct. This is this is in meta.
SPEAKER_01What about their revenue? Do they pay sales tax on their revenue?
SPEAKER_02I don't I don't know. I don't know that they know that yet because it's just like everybody's still in the building stage. Um, but who also it is applicable to is their subcontractors, and so I would not be surprised if I was an energy company.
SPEAKER_01A bunch of fraud.
SPEAKER_02I am so angry. Oh, trust me, it gets so much worse because like you go out and you buy a Swiffer, you buy chairs for your business, you pay sales tax on it, right?
SPEAKER_07100%.
SPEAKER_02They don't, and it's not the same as uh like a regular and this is a private owned this is not only privately owned, but this is meta.
SPEAKER_07These are billion-dollar companies, and then you have mompa shops shutting down because they can't afford a Swiffer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because they and and um the other thing is the electrical grid. Um so in Wisconsin, the grid is uh called a regulated monopoly. Basically, there are certain companies that the like the competition is limited, but they have to answer to the government, the public service commission is who electrical and energy companies answer to. So the people who build the transmission lines uh in Wisconsin is overwhelmingly ATC, American Transmission Company. ATC is an investor-owned company, and then uh electrical energy providers in Wisconsin can be investor-owned, municipal, or co-op. Most of these companies own our investors in ATC. Uh, we energies own 60% in ATC. So they are making money on the um AT the transmission lines, they're making money on the rate usage, they're making money on the lack like sales because they get the break on taxes involved with the data centers. They're also making money on your rates, and you are paying for all of that. And then on top of that, if something is defunct but it's not paid for, for example, like a coal plant is decommissioned and it's not paid for, you still pay for it. In uh Milwaukee area, there's a coal plant that was taken out of commission, like Mount Pleasant area taken out of commission in like 2018. Those ratepayers will be paying it off through 2039, I believe. And so what happens if one of these data centers goes, if the bubble pops, these data centers go out of business, you are still going to be paying for the infrastructure that goes into their uh grid.
SPEAKER_01Why do you think data centers would go out of business?
SPEAKER_02Um I I don't think they will.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02I think I think when the excuse me, when the bubble pops, I think it will pop. What do you mean when the bubble pops? So um currently they are putting so much money and they are building the, they're blowing that bubble up, but they don't basically have the support to put that money in. So uh it'll burst essentially. Um, if you're familiar with the dot com bubble, um basically people are putting so much money into AI that there's nothing to support it, like it's not a good business model or whatever it is. Um, and so anybody who invests in AI um or technology, like the dot com, any business that had a website was considered like a good business. So people invested a bunch and then realized that nobody was actually using that business. Um so I think I think the bubble is gonna pop, uh, which is gonna be disastrous, I think, for communities that like Beaver Dam in Port Washington, um, because they're either gonna stop construction and leave, um, or they're gonna, I don't, I don't know what that's gonna look like. Um, but then I think eventually there will be kind of a course correction, um, which is still not okay. Um, I but I think that I don't know, it feels weird to be like, man, I hope the economy sucks, but it would buy us time. Yeah. Um, but I don't I don't know what that could or couldn't look like. My hope would be is it would look like very similar to every other technological advance where you know there's like a hype and then the it drops off and then it kind of collects, type of thing.
SPEAKER_05Cammy, you've had a question. Oh, I was just gonna say, um, AI data centers don't pay water bills either, do they?
SPEAKER_02No, they don't, I mean, they don't really pay bills.
SPEAKER_07What a great business plan. Let's just open up a data center and not pay I was like, damn, right?
SPEAKER_02Why didn't I invent this?
SPEAKER_07And not care about anybody but ourselves.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, but that is that's another thing that gets me heated, okay? The electrical companies and the um being like, oh well, data centers only pay for their stuff, and they're only gonna pay for things that are bespoke, that are built for them, right? That there's no such thing as bespoke in a shared grid. I mean, that it's just not. And so what they're doing is they're they're increasing these transmission lines, they're taking it from like 128 kilovolts or whatever the measurement is, up to 345. And they'll do that from, as an example, Green Bay to Shawnee. Everybody along those lines, their argument is well, you guys get better, more electricity, right? And then they beef up a substation in Shahneau, and then a data center shows up. You and I, and anybody who has two brain cells to rub together knows that all of that was for the data center. But they say, no, it's for everybody. Improvements, yeah, it's improvements, and the so and so you're paying for all of that, like you're paying for the transmission lines and the substation. The data center is quote unquote paying, not paying sales tax, on everything that goes on their property. And so when uh I can't remember what electrical company it was, but they were like, oh my god, we're looking out for you. We're gonna make data centers only pay for what's bespoke. And it's like, okay, so that actually doesn't mean anything. Um and so yeah, they're they're just not they're just not good for the community. They they don't have any accountability. And um, I've spoken to quite a few politicians who who literally didn't know that data centers don't pay sales tax, people who voted for it, which is like well, they vote who they vote for what whoever is lining their pockets.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, most cases. It's like who do you want me to vote for?
SPEAKER_02Okay, and and so that to kind of circle back is like you need you need to look into your government officials, you need to look at who you're voting for and ask questions that are important to you, you know, like data centers should not well, I'm not saying that you should vote simply based on data centers, but you should in this current climate, voting because of a letter is not is not how it works. Because at the end of the day, they're they're the same. Yep. At the end of the day, they are. And and then so that's kind of at the state level, um, but at a municipal level, the question that I think everybody should ask um is how will you weigh your constituents' opinion against your belief on an issue? So, like if you walk into a board meeting and you're like, Yep, this data center sounds great. I want that 600% net new construction tax levy. But every single person in the community, 75% of the community, is like, this is not a good idea. Will you prioritize your own beliefs or will you prioritize your community members? And I think that should tell you who to vote for.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_02Um, but then I also think that there should be a level of accountability as well for people who are not uh following through. And there's like a whole bunch of other stuff, like addressing some state laws that pass that make it harder for communities to like petition or overturn stuff. Like there's so much. But I think that those are kind of the two biggest things. And then also if you don't want a data center or if you want, you know, maybe you want one of the smaller ones or something, um, setting up uh ordinances that are like sound levels or uh electrical, like single electrical usage levels, or that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_07Um it's a good idea.
SPEAKER_02I know I've been talking forever, but there's a community in western Wisconsin that basically they were approached by a pretty small data center. And this community did everything right. They brought me and a few other people that I kind of work with regarding data centers. They did the plan commission meeting and the board meeting, and they like let the data center guy answer questions. They gave him extra time for the constituents to ask questions. They ultimately ended up saying no. Um, the data center appealed and threatened to sue if they didn't give them the conditional use permit. Because in their ordinances, it said basically that the uh board can deny it based on the board's discretion. Um in in Wisconsin, you have to have what's called an objective and measurable objection. You have to point to why you're saying no, not just because the vibes are off. The vibes were very off with this guy, like lied about a bunch of stuff, was a slimy dude. Anyway, uh they they had to pass it. They had to pass it, they weren't prepared for it. Uh, there's a bunch of other stuff, like the lawyer being incompetent and all of these other things. Um, they just passed an injunction, but they had to get like a new lawyer and they had they have to go through all these things because they're the state has set up these municipalities to fail because nobody knows anything.
SPEAKER_07So that's right. We got to get the ordinances to change. Cecil, I thought you said Cecil, they were looking at um O'Connell Falls.
SPEAKER_02Styles.
SPEAKER_07Styles.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm speaking in styles tomorrow. They asked me to come up and talk about that's where I used to live.
SPEAKER_07Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um we're probably gonna have to have a part two with this girl because she could go on. I and that's in a good way.
SPEAKER_02Truly could.
SPEAKER_07And there's probably gonna be more questions and stuff because people are like, what information do you listen to? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah. The information on meta? Yeah, you know what I mean? Who's controlling it? Truly, who's controlling what information you're getting? What do they want you to see? A hundred percent. So yeah, and like you said, you have really no skin in the game here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_07So listening to somebody that has dived in and did her own research and and talked to people that are directly affected already in Wisconsin. That horse ranch lady, her name again. Miley. Miley, I was like, oh my god.
SPEAKER_02And she's the I mean, she has had that piece of property. She grew up across the street, they've owned that property for 20 plus years. Like her son just graduated high school. She is this was her dream problem.
SPEAKER_07That's not fair. Yeah, that's just not fair.
SPEAKER_02It's awful. Um, but yeah, I will probably be back.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and whenever you come back to the area, we'll have a like a part two or something. All right. Um, thanks for stopping by, guys, and listening. Is there a way somebody could reach out directly to you if they want you to come to your community? Yeah, their community and speak?
SPEAKER_02Yes. So my email is quinn at wisconsquinn.com.
SPEAKER_07Uh we'll plug that in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Uh, and then I'm also on TikTok. I'm on Facebook and Instagram as well, but I inherently hate meta, so I'm not super active on there, but um on TikTok it's like at underscore Wisconsquin um as well. Uh but yeah, reach out if you have questions or want me to show up, or if you have tips, I get a lot of like hey heads up whistleblower sort of stuff too, which is really helpful. Um, but yeah.
SPEAKER_07A real live Aaron Brockovich in the making.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_07I mean I'm gonna watch that movie tonight.
SPEAKER_05That's a good idea. It is a good idea. That's why I freaked out because at the first when I was getting to know what she was all about, I called her the Midwest of Aaron Brockovich.
SPEAKER_07Really? We have the same brain. Oh no. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Oh no. There's two of you.
SPEAKER_07All right.
SPEAKER_04Thanks so much, guys.
SPEAKER_07Thanks so much for being here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_07I really appreciate you taking the drive.
SPEAKER_02I love it. I'm excited to explore.
SPEAKER_07Awesome. Well, thank you. All right, see you next Tuesday.
SPEAKER_00Bye. Have a freely vlog.