Episode 1: How to Get Started - the Pros and Cons of Consulting

Ever considered freelancing or consulting? Curious about what it involves? 

In this episode, Melanie Loy and Fadi Ramzy discuss the journey of freelancing and consulting, exploring both the pros and cons. They share personal experiences, insights on self-discovery, and the challenges of imposter syndrome. The conversation emphasizes the importance of networking, the realities of running a business, and the need for flexibility and hard work in the freelancing world.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Freelancing and Consulting
04:30 Pros of Freelancing
17:47 Cons of Freelancing
33:36 Key Takeaways and Conclusion

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• Fady Ramzy
• Mel Loy

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Transcript

0:06

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first episode of Reinventors Consulting Conversations Over Coffee. I'm Mel Loy. And I'm Fady Ramzy. And, uh, we are getting together on this podcast series to share the inside scoop on freelancing and consulting. Uh, but let's introduce ourselves first. Fadi. So take it away. Tell our audience a bit about you. I've been working at the intersection of the internet technology and the human behavior for the last 28 years. So, specifically currently I work as a coach and consultant for personal branding and, uh, executive storytelling. On the side. I teach graduate programs at the American University in Cairo as an adjunct faculty, uh, member. And I'm considered one of the top 200 LinkedIn people, or I don't wanna say experts in, in my home country in, in Egypt. So I'm proud of that. That's me quickly. Yeah. And uh, if you haven't already followed Fadi on LinkedIn, get over there.'cause you, you just share so much gold and so much good tips on LinkedIn. On LinkedIn, which is really cool. Bit meta, uh, and Fadi is in Cairo. I'm Mel and I'm coming to you from Brisbane, Australia. So we are worlds apart and yet here we are together and I'm on the traditional custodians our traditional lands of the Yuggera and Turrbal people. And this land that I'm on, which we call Brisbane now, was called Meanjin. Uh, and I ran my own agency called Cuttlefish. We've been going for about five years and I started off just me freelancing and I thought that's what I was gonna keep doing. And I somehow ended up owning an agency. But that's what we're gonna get into. It's all the lessons we've learned. Some, easily some the hard way. Over the last however many years we've both been doing this, because I know about you Fadi, but I get asked a lot, you know, how do I get started freelancing? You know, how do I price my services? What are some of the questions you get asked a lot? Well, I think this is sort of the entrepreneurship journey, but I call it the solo entrepreneurship journey, where you're just a alone one. So there is lots of additional. Stress on, on, on that. But there are lots of joy and, and lessons learned. But I would say that that's my advice always to everyone. After several years of work, let's say like 7, 8, 10 years maximum, you can start your own journey and get in control of your own, the whole business thing. So that's my advice. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's not. Hmm, I agree. I think you need to have that experience first. In a workplace to understand how workplaces work. So when you are pitching to them, you need to understand, well, who makes decisions behind the scenes? How does that all work? But I think it's also just part of the building, the relationships you're going to need in order to start your freelancing journey. Would you agree with that? I can't agree more. We always say your network is your net worth. And that's totally a hundred percent true for consulting and freelancing. If you have a good network that opens lots of doors and And the opposite is very true as well. Hmm. Well, building our audience is one thing we are going to talk about on this series, but today's episode, the very first, is all about the pros and cons of freelancing because we want you to go into this journey with a really clear picture of what could go well. What could go wrong? All those things so that you can make a, a good decision for yourself. So Fadi, maybe we start with the good news, the pros. What are some of the pros from your point of view to freelancing? Freelancing is, is really an enjoyable journey, and sometimes people consider it, it's a milestone. It's, it's a journey with milestones that come every day. But I would summarize it in, in three benefits. One is control that you are in control of everything, which means your lifestyle in terms of timing and location. Where do you work and how much time do you work? So that's one client control. So you get to choose at least after a while, after some, some time of. Consulting or working, you got to choose your clients, which is extremely important. And moreover, you get to choose your pricing and your structure that you work. So I, I would say starting with the first benefit, it's the three Cs, like three types of control, which we don't have in the nine to five corporate world. Hmm. I totally agree. I think one of the pros for me was, you know, being your own boss means that you do control. Mostly, yeah. What kind of work you do and who you do it for. Uh, and I think for people who, you know, the work, the modern workplace isn't made for everybody. Not everybody thrives in that environment. And I certainly found that since getting out of in-house five years ago and starting my own thing, having that sense of freedom to kind of work on whatever I want to work on has been really nice. Um, I've certainly become much more creative. I've had more time to create as well, and I don't have to deal with the office politics. That's the big one for me. Uh, what about you? He, he just reminded me with good old days when I started career in o one of the largest corporates in Egypt. And I'm not complaining. Uh, it was a blessing. I learned a lot, but always that tiny thing of office politics that's in the background every single day. Sometimes it's the, the, the noise is a little bit, sometimes it's harsh, but I, I, I wasn't someone who really knew how to play politics and you know, that that was a problem. Getting this out of the scene. This is by itself value. You are in control of everything. There's no noise, no politics. Mm-hmm. No, no, no. Gaming, you know, it's just a queue client adding value. Full stop. Yeah. I love that. I think, uh, I, I, I agree. I don't want to play the politics game. I find that just really unsavory. It doesn't really align with my values. And I think maybe that's because, you know, some people do it well and do it kindly. But I've seen a lot of examples of, you know, those corporate animals who are really, really ambitious to get to the top and they will throw anyone under the bus on the way up. And, you know, people's personalities rather than their role and what they should be doing. The personality is prioritized and, and that can lead to all sorts of issues. You know, the right things don't happen because of a certain person. And I remember just that feeling of. F when I had a client, uh, early on and there was a lot of politics going on, and I could just step back and be like, not my problem. You guys sort it out and let me know when you're ready and I'll come back. That's, that's the luxury of control that, that we are talking about. But you, you got me excited here on the positive side, and let me ask you, whether for yourself or for your clients, what are other benefits or aha moments that you saw, whether with you or with them? Jumping into this freelancing slash consulting journey. Yeah, I think one of the other things is when you are in-house like I was for many years, and it was through different industries, but you're focused on one topic and one subject matter, and so the work might change a little bit, but it's always going to come back to something about finance or about construction or whatever industry you're in. And I've had the. Possibility through this to learn about lots of different things. So community services, uh, domestic violence support services through to how trained are built. Um, like, like everything in between. And so having that real variety of work has been really, really helpful. Uh, it just, it keeps it interesting, but also I'm really good at trivia now, so. Get me on your trivia team. What about you, Fadi? Uh, I, I think what I really en enjoyed the most, especially with the clients, is really, I mean, the, the aha moment when they start realize two things. One is that their life will not co collapse if they move out of the nine to five corporate world. Many people, they get themselves stuck in that comfort zone or the fear of unknown. So it's just like I go there every day, even if I'm not happy, I, I can cope with that. You know, I just like, you know, push myself yet another day. But what my message to them is always, you don't need to, because again, if you have the years of experience, you have the knowledge, you have the network. You don't need to assert any effort. Moreover, and this is always an ongoing debate between me and my clients, that like 90% of them, they are in the comfort zone of the financial stability, which happens to be. A capping many times I just, you know, when we start working together, I just challenge my client. I say, let, let's, let's see if you can do double your current salary or sometimes triple and sometimes by numbers. It's interesting to them. So everyone sees that like the, the paycheck is a comfort zone and stability, while it's just capping even their financial capabilities, they can do double or triple. So, so that's always like, oh wow, that, that's happening. That's true. Like, you know, it's like an amazing. Thing that we didn't think about. We were just, you know, losing money all that previous time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And look, I, I agree. I think there are people who would really want to try freelancing, but it's uncomfortable. It might seem a bit scary. Like, well, what is the, uh, the regularity of income? You know, all those things. And one of the things I say is there will never be a perfect time. To start freelancing. There will be times that are really bad when you shouldn't, you know, like if you are buying a new house or hey, you've just had another child and that's gonna cost you an extra, you know, million dollars over their lifetime or whatever. Um, but there will never be a perfect time when everything lines up and, you know, all the signs are pointing to yes. So just look for a good time to test it. Uh, and I certainly felt like I didn't want to regret not trying. I at least said, I went into it, and you can do this too. Just go into it and go, look, I'll give it six months. If it doesn't work, that's fine. I'll find a job. That's fine. But give it a go. Don't, don't regret not trying. It would be my message. I I, I love what you just said, like testing it, because it can be like on a side hustle and I can confirm that lots of people, we get like positive signals every day like. Colleagues asking you about this, something specific or people engaging with your content on LinkedIn or social? I mean, there are lots of signs that says, as you said, this might be the best time. So why not give it like a trial, like three, six months as a side hustle? If it works? It, it's, it's like a revelation. Everyone, everyone that I worked with and they started. You know, moving dab well, especially on the financial side, they always say, you know what? We have been losing, literally putting money on the table or, or previous years. And that's the, the guilt feeling a little bit. But again, it's an interesting journey and it's never too late and it's never the perfect timing. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent agree. Uh, there's one more pro I'll mention too, and I think you touched on this before when you start freelancing or consulting, at least when I did, my network just grew. Like three or four or five times what it was within a year. And I think that's because you start to obviously, you know, build more relationships and meet people by freelancing with different organizations. Uh, but also I think I became much more aware of what other consultants were doing and other freelancers were doing. So I was reaching out to them. I joined a membership professional organization, so the IABC to meet new people because. When you do start out, it might feel a bit isolating if you're a one-man show or one-woman show. So joining those groups is really helpful, not just for your own learning and development to keep that going, but just to meet new people. And through this journey, the number of people I've met, like yourself, who I probably wouldn't have met otherwise if I'd stayed in an in-house role for the rest of my life is amazing and some incredible human beings all over the world, which again, is. Would not have happened if I had, if I hadn't have taken that leap. I, I can't agree more, especially what you said about communities, because as a, as a consultant, you try to be within the like-minded people, people like myself, and you start looking and joining relevant communities when you are in that frame of the nine to five. Maybe you don't need that or you're not thinking about that, and I cannot agree and confirm more. As you said, the power of communities is things like IABC, which got us both together. I, I can't believe it. It's between RA and Brisbane. Can you imagine? I know, and that's, and we met in Manila. We met in the Philippines. Exactly. So RA and Brisbane meeting in Manila. That's the power of community. We have an example, like a practical case for. For this is what what's happening, but you reminded me also with one thing, and I would like to get your opinion about it, which is again, very enjoyable thing for myself is the self discovery. When you are in a frame of the corporate world, you know where you start and where you end. But when you are in on your own, across the journey, you start discovering and rediscovering a little bit of skills, thoughts. I started as a trainer consultant for digital marketing and digital communications, but people started asking me specifically about personal branding. Link it in storytelling. So I started a little bit niching down, rediscovering my own thing. I'm sure you have something similar across your journey here. Yeah, absolutely. I think w. I was very much a generalist when it came to communication, so I could do a bit of everything internal, external, all, you know, bits and pieces. Uh, even though I had change management qualifications, I hadn't really used them all that much, I suppose. So over this time. I've realized, hang on, who I am or what I do is actually, I'm a change communication specialist, and that is different to those other specialties, and I've been able to really explore that in depth, which again, wouldn't have done if I, you know, it's like the sliding doors moment if I hadn't have jumped on that drain. And I do feel like it has allowed me to explore that side of things in so much more depth. Uh, it led me to go on and do more post-grad study in behavioral science, which again, probably wouldn't have done so. Yeah, absolutely. You do really start to build different skills and I think the speaking and facilitation skill as well, that I was running workshops internally, but nothing like what I do now and having the ability to have a podcast and practice that every week and then go on stages and do that. That's a skill that I'm still learning. I'm still building on it and hopefully getting better at it. But again, it's the opportunity that freelancing presented for me and, and let me add to it because I think they come along with self-discovery and rediscovery comes self-confidence. Because as you said, you just reminded me when you, you said about facilitation and things when we are all our own. We get a little bit of confidence that, let me try this, let me jump on that. You know, I always ask myself and ask my, my clients, you know, if you do this, let's always start with the worst case scenario. What would be the worst case scenario? And my answer to myself is always, it's worth trying. So, you know, you keep pushing yourself sometimes to, to levels that. If I thought about it like five years ago, six years ago. I wouldn't imagine that I would be doing such things, or I reach that level in that context. So also self-discovery comes with self-confidence and it's a flywheel, it's a snowball effect that grows and grows and, and, and grows. Do you agree to that? Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Uh, and maybe this leads into the cons a little bit here. Imposter syndrome. Mm. That's a big thing. Uh, and you know, there's lots of statistics about imposter syndrome. It's particularly bad among women. Uh, but yeah, building that confidence and overcoming that has been part of this process. Whereas, again, in an in-house role, I was helping other people to speak. I was, you know, coaching them and giving them all their speaking points and doing all the rehearsals with them. Never actually applying any of that to myself. In that position, why would I, I, you know, for me it was like, oh, that's not something that I'd do. So, but I think that does lead to the cons is one of the things that's on my con list is imposter syndrome can be something that rears its ugly head and there's different types of imposter syndrome. You know, there's the type that is everything needs to be perfect and it's not perfect then I'm not gonna put out into the world my own type of imposter syndrome was. Just dismissing my success as luck. So I used to say, I'm, I've just been lucky. I've just been lucky. It's like, well, actually no, it's been 20 years of hard work and building relationships and nights and weekends and doing all of that stuff to build a business and learning along the way and making a lot of mistakes and learning from them. Uh, but I don't know. Did you ever have that sense of imposter syndrome fatty? Always, always, I think, and let, let me debate with you 'cause I agreed with you all the time. This is the first time I'll, I'll disagree with you about women. I think men, men, it's, it's equal sometimes all, all the types of fears are more on, on men, especially from the financial point of view where you have the responsibility of a family, everything. So should I do this? Is that the right moment? As you just said, like a few minutes ago, there is always the tendency to delay this a little bit till. I have the confidence, I have the right moment, I have all the components while today, now is the right moment. So this imposter syndrome or the fear of taking action or delaying things, it, it's, I wouldn't call it only the imposter syndrome. It's like a whole package of fears. Like this package, everyone carries this package. Some, some smart people, they just turn the volume down for that and they eat them. Into it. But yes, I have been, I have been there several times, but I have a different story because, mm, I was, I was forced, I learned by force because my, my, my story quickly is that I got to start a text startup between Carol and Rome from a post that I saw while I lived back in Rome in 20, uh, in 2009, came back to Egypt, built that startup with an Italian partner, worked for like perfect 10 years from. Uh, 2009 to 2019, and I decided to start on my own, like a small consultancy boutique with a friend in, in the Gulf region. And I walked away from the Italian company, but before reaching the Gulf region, COVID came. So I was forced to do everything on my own. It was like a nightmare, like 20 20, 20 21, like total silence in my career. For the first time ever, I was forced to be. Like a solopreneur, but that was the worst nightmare and the best blessing that I got because I, I have no option, you know? Yeah. So I learned by force and I'm really grateful for, for that tough. Tough moment. And, uh, it was the best thing that that happened ever. So I, I learned it the hard way. I I wonder if that was any similar on your side. Yeah, to a degree. So I started my business in 2020 again, so COVID years, but, uh, it was towards the end of 2020. And up until that point, I had been in charge of all the internal crisis comms. To go along with COVID. So all the staff messages that we're putting out. I, I worked in a massive insurance and banking company. Um, so I was pretty done, to be honest. I was a, I was a bit burned out and uh, there was some new leadership who came in and that kind of raised some red flags for me. And then we went through a restructure and I was made redundant and. Honestly, I was happy to be made redundant. I'm like, pay me to leave. I'm good. Like, I'm happy to be paid to leave. Let's go. Uh, but I didn't have anything lined up and that was okay. I went, you know, as I said, I'll just, I need a rest for one and I will just try this freelancing thing and see what happens. I think the fear came in really around, you know, I was lucky again, I had a bit of a financial buffer, but I knew that wasn't going to last for long. And the fear really came in around getting paid. And that is another con to a degree, is that you're not always sure when the next pay is coming in, when the next client is. And so in those early days, I made the mistake of not charging enough and saying yes to everything for fear of not having income. And that is a big lesson learned, but. It is something that you need to consider when you are starting freelancing is, you know, there's no such thing as paid leave. There's no such thing as paid holidays. You need to be thinking ahead to your pipeline of work, and even though you've got one project on the go, okay, what's coming up next and what's coming after that and what's coming after that? Can you manage two or more at once? So it really, you, the hustle doesn't stop and that's something you have to, you have to really think about. What's, uh, something that you might think is a con or a negative as well around freelancing? Let, let, let me try to fix this con first because mm-hmm. I mean, we might have an episode about that, but what I learned is yes, there, there's no paid anything. There's no paid leave, there's no paid vacation. There's no paid, but a little bit solution that I learned. Especially for consultants, I always say we are blessed to be in the knowledge work, which means we can work remotely from any place to any place. So sometimes this gives us a little bit of luxury that we can manage our time. This is number one. Number two, since it's knowledge work, we can package that into digital products. It's not the main line. It wouldn't because people preaching like. Like magical, uh, uh, make money while you are asleep and that passive income, which does not exist, but it, it, it saves a little bit of, you know, uh, um, saving some, some money. So digital products can be a little bit of solution for that. Again, you'll not rely on it, but sometimes yes, you do make little money while, while you sleep. So, yes, and for me, that was a lesson. Learned by itself because first I did everything by my own, and really it was hectic. There's no paid anything. But what I can claim currently is digital products in terms of online courses, uh, uh, downloadables, everything. This gives me a luxury of like maybe one or two days of, you know, passive income, paid leave, sort of. So building that ecosystem was a lessons learned, um, as well here. So maybe that, that's, that's, that's a con that is a little bit solvable. What can be a more harsh, negative side on, on your thoughts? Yeah. I think being outside of your comfort zone, like I, like you just said at the start, I was doing everything and it is understanding that, hey, you are hr, you are the accounts payable, accounts receivable, the finance department, you are the marketing department, you are everything. You are a business owner and. That is something that not everybody is comfortable with either, and that is okay if that is not something that you wanna do. What I will say is that once you've built up a bit of a business that you are getting, you know, more consistency in work, you're actually getting paid what you're worth and you're charging what you're worth. I've found that my business has reached inflection points, so it got to a point where. I was working so many hours and I realized, look, I need to bring on some admin support because a, I'm terrible at it, so always outsource the stuff you're bad at. Uh, but it was that stuff that was taking me away from building the business further. So I started off getting somebody in for, yeah, maybe 10 hours a month, and she would do the monthly invoicing and make sure, and as I started bringing subcontractors on, uh, make sure I paid them, you know, those sorts of things. So that was one inflection point. The second one came when I'd started my podcast, which is weekly and had a blog going on the website as well, and all this stuff. And again, taking up so many hours of my time and I was able to pay someone to then take over the production of those things and the social media side for the business, not myself, but the business. Uh, and this is money that is so well spent because it's freed up the time to focus on. The stuff that actually grows the business, which is getting out there in front of people, doing the work, you know, being on the tools, delivering strategies, running workshops with clients, all that sort of stuff. And then again, reached another inflection point not long ago where the admin load. Because now we've got quite a few retainer clients on. Mm-hmm. Was becoming, again, really onerous. I was spending my whole day on Sundays writing up client reports and that sort of stuff. Mm-hmm. So again, brought some, uh, beefed up the admin support and I've now freed up that time again. So it is stepping stones, but at the beginning, unless you know what you're doing and some people do, that's great. You might have run a business before and you got this, but if you've got no idea, that can be a lot to take on and it might feel really uncomfortable. Some, sometimes both sides are uncomfortable, which means doing all the admin work that you don't like is, is really uncomfortable and, and time consuming and draining. But on the other side, some people say, or might see it as like a financial burden. I'm, I'm not able to pay another. So it's a dilemma, you know, it's a chicken and egg situation. Yeah, sh should I do this or that? In both cases. I'm, I'm, I'm stressed. So that, that's a negative point that that's a really negative point unless you have some work or some stability to pay someone at least, or for few days. Mm-hmm. That's on one side. And you mentioned something very important on the other side, being a consultant, working on your own thing, like your own visibility, which means your blog, podcast, link it in content. There is another psychological challenge in, in that, like, for example, for myself, 'cause that's really what I love doing and I consider myself good at that. So even if I can pay someone to offload some few things, but I, I enjoy doing this. This is the, the joy I, I can spend the whole day creating content and it working with people on LinkedIn, but there is like a client who is the priority for that time. So taking that outside and delegating it to someone else so that I free my time to work with a little bit of boring work for a client. That was like psychologically like a torture for me, but. That's, that's how consultancy, so entrepreneurship works. So I can't agree with you. It, it's all a psychological challenge, whether you can do it or you, you can do it, but you don't like to do it as well. Yeah. If you agree with that exactly. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. And there's things that, you know, for example, with the podcast, I actually really love the whole. Creation process of the podcast. I, I actually love the editing and all that sort of stuff. Uh, my background, my undergraduate degree was in journalism and I majored in radio. I loved that stuff. But again, is it the best use of my time? And it's absolutely not. It was just taking up too much of my time, filling around with that stuff where, you know, it's enjoyable but it's not the best use of my time. And so you do have to make some tough calls sometimes. And I would say also about paying other people to help you. You don't have to bring somebody on full time, straight away, a few hours a week, you know, find somebody on Airtasker or whatever, to just take a bit of the burden away. And hopefully like me, you'll be pleasantly surprised by how much that frees up in terms of time. But then also how much extra income that actually ends up generating the return on that investment has been huge for me. Um, so one more con for me. Is or con you know, again, two sides to the coin. While I love the flexibility of freelancing, so you know, I can, middle of the day, I can go to a doctor's appointment. I can um, go, you know, take a few days off wherever I like and, and all to a degree would, depending on what's going on. But that's brilliant and I love that. I love that I don't have to go into an office every day and wear corporate clothes 'cause I'm not that person, but. I think sometimes the flip side of that is, yes, there's flexibility and people say, oh, you're own Bo your own boss. You've got so much flexibility. Yeah. It doesn't mean you're not working a lot. Mm-hmm. You know, there are times when you are still going to be working big hours every day for weeks. If there's a deadline, a big project, you're working on multiple projects, you know you're going on a trip somewhere, you've gotta prepare for that as well as everything else. So it's not so much a con, but it's just being aware of the reality that flexibility doesn't mean that you're not gonna be working really hard. I, I can't agree more. Flexibility does not by any means equal less work. Let's put it like clear, honestly, blindly to everyone sorting the journey or thinking about starting the journey. You will not work less. Most probably you will work more. But with more control. So, so that, that's the equation. That's, that's the package. Like take it or leave it. But do not let anyone tell you the, the myth or the lie that you'll be like on a, a beach on Hawaii shipping the juice and there is something working in the back, hopefully after many years you might end up there, but at least, at least in the first five to seven years that that scene of Hawaii sip juice and sip drinks. It, it, it's not there. You work. A lot and sometimes that, that becomes even more challenging. I always say every human being wakes up in the morning with those 24 units every sunrise. Mm-hmm. So sometimes it's like, it's challenging and one of the ways, as you said, is just like delegating so that you maximize, you make the best use of those. 24 units, but sometimes really, you know, that that's, that's your currency. You just consume them all without realizing sometimes even more hours than the corporate, previous world. Right? Yeah, a hundred percent. Absolutely. And you've just touched on something that there that really annoys me. It's those people who take the photos and they're on a balcony with their laptop out and you know, the ocean in the background and they're like. The grind never stops. And you're like, come off it. Like we know this isn't real. Especially when the laptop screen is blank. Like Exactly. And you see this stuff on LinkedIn about, you know, well, I've worked 72 hours a week for the last three weeks. This is what it takes for success. I hate that stuff. It is not, yeah, if you see that stuff, just ignore it because it's a load of. Poppycock, you. You know what, let me tell you my, my humble opinion, because I don't believe this real entrepreneurs or solopreneurs, if you are on the beach, you wouldn't have your laptop with you working. You'd be inside the beach swimming and enjoying time and this is extremely important. Where to switch off. Where to draw the line. Mm-hmm. So if you are on the beach with the laptop working, most probably are doing something wrong because yeah, that's, this shouldn't be the picture Exactly. Should be there. I don't believe it. Alright, it's a miss now party. Uh, we are coming up to the end of our first episode, so we need some three key points to leave with people because people love threes. Our brains love threes. Uh, my first one is to make sure you go into it, understanding that there is a lot of pros, like things like you have that flexibility, you have that ability to learn about all sorts of things. You've got that control. Uh, as you were talking about, uh, but you do need to take into consideration the fact that you're running a business and that might be something that you are not used to. That's one of my key points. My one would be it's a tough journey. There is no shortcut to success, just like to mm-hmm. To to be clear and always success is a team sport. So you would shift your mindset, at least for, for first, from doing everything to building your own team. So it's an enjoyable journey, a tough one, but it unlocks opportunities. Yep. Love it. I think another point for me is, and we've talked about this in different ways, but you don't have to do everything all at once. So you can build up, you can start as a side hustle, doing a few hours a week here and there for a. And build up. You don't have to ditch your nine to five and just, you know, dive right in if you don't want to, or if you can't for whatever reason. And you know, you can build up the support over time. You know, you get a, you get a good accountant, you get a good bookkeeper. You, you build those things as well. So think about it as building blocks and where you start is just that, it's just the start. What it looks like at the end should be completely different. Let, let me add like, not like it, it's three points, but the final conclusion, if you really have the right components to start, please start today. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's what we said. There's no perfect time, there's no, there are terrible times, but there is no perfect time, so just do it, you know, pull a Nike, just do it and see what happens. And again, experiment. It's, I, I really love, I think it was a Nelson Mandela saying. You know, we don't lose or win. We learn or win. And as long as you take that mindset of learning from the failures as much as the wins, then you're on the right track. It's all about that mindset. So since you mentioned the code, another code that I love is we should do something different to expect something different. If you keep doing the same thing, nothing different, what happens? Mm-hmm. So it's worth trying and it's always, always think what's the. Worst ever. Okay. Scenario. That will always give you some, some bandwidth just to try it out. As you said, Mel, it's, it's worth trying. Yeah. Love that. Well, thank you so much Fadi. This is episode one and over the course of this series, we are going to be having more conversations like this between us, but we've also getting some guests lined up, other people, other solopreneurs, consultants who have been doing this a long time, who are gonna share their pearls of wisdom. So look out for those. Fadi. I've loved chatting with you as always. Same here. That was quite interesting and time flew away.