Episode 8: Unlocking the Secrets of Successful Pricing and Proposals

How much should you charge your clients? And are you charging for the value you add, not the time you spent?

In this episode, Mel Loy and Fady Ramzy discuss the intricacies of pricing and proposals in consulting. 

They share their personal experiences and insights on how to effectively price services, the importance of understanding the value provided to clients, and the psychological aspects of pricing. 

The conversation covers various strategies for structuring proposals, creating multiple pricing options, and working with different types of clients, including non-profits and international clients. 

They also touch on the significance of packaging services as products to generate passive income.

Chapters
00:00 Navigating the Pricing Landscape
02:55 Understanding Value and Client Needs
06:00 The Psychology of Pricing Strategies
09:00 Structuring Proposals for Success
12:00 Packaging Services Effectively
15:05 The Importance of Client Communication
18:01 Final Thoughts on Pricing and Proposals
28:54 The Importance of Honest Pricing Conversations
30:39 Building a Pricing Strategy with Buffer
32:59 Legal Considerations in Pricing and Contracts
35:04 Navigating International Pricing and Currency Differences
38:15 Pricing Strategies for Non-Profits
40:44 Creating Value through Add-Ons and Discounts
42:05 Leveraging Digital Products for Passive Income
44:49 Psychology of Pricing and Consumer Behavior

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• Fady Ramzy
• Mel Loy

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Transcript

0:06

Hi everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Reinventors Consulting Conversations Over Coffee. I'm Mel Loy and I'm here with Fady Ramzy. Hi Fady. Hi Mel. And this is one of the most exciting and interesting, if not the most interesting topic, uh, for the whole thing, right. Oh, a hundred percent. Pricing and proposals, look, Fady. I wanna start with when you first started out as a consultant, did you have any idea how to price your services? Nothing at all whatsoever. Just only, the only thing I did, I was just trying to understand what are other people doing and be a little bit lower than that. And for me it was like, um, exercise. Well done. How about you? Yeah, no idea. I had absolutely no idea. Uh, I had been on the other side of, as, you know, hiring consultants or agencies to help with stuff at work, but it was always really big stuff, you know, like a, a rebrand or something. Uh, not individual consultants. And, you know, I had absolutely no idea. So my first gig, uh, well, first, uh, gig, I guess when I priced per hour. Uh, I just asked, well, how much are you currently paying the people doing this freelancing work for you now? And they told me, oh, X amount per hour. I was like, cool, I'll match it. Like I didn't even think, is that good? Is it bad? Is it high? Is it low? And I'll do that. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing by, by the way, I started even a bit earlier before that, which is working for free for some, some good amount of time. You know, just like. Getting the logo of the client, which which was needed. Sometimes when you are beginning, you need to do some, let's say, voluntary of voluntary work, just like few times, not everything, because you have bills to pay at then. Mm-hmm. But I started from doing like free trainings, free consultancy, free speaking, but then it was a tool to build visibility. So I was not paid in cash, but paid in visibility. So that might be a story. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. So when you first start as a consultant, particularly if it's a consultant in terms of offering B2B services as opposed to, you know, you're selling umbrellas or something, it's, it can be really challenging to work out how much you should price your services at, because, you know, with an umbrella. It costs this much to make it in the factory and then it costs this much to ship it, and then you need to make, you know, 20% margin on top of that. So it's a pretty straightforward calculation. But with pricing your services Fady, what are some of the things that people need to think about, need to put into that equation? Yeah, I think that's an excellent question because we all, as consultants, myself included, we work, uh, in this field with lots of. Of wrong conceptions, okay? Mm-hmm. Number one is sometimes an hourly rate is not the best way to price it because you have like a standard hourly rate regardless of the client, regardless of the severity of the problem that you are working on. So what either is, yes, having hourly rate, like a consultancy hourly rate, but always do not just offer like a standard rate. But how far are you solving this problem because the client might be. Purchasing your years of experience to solve an extremely painful problem. In other words, sometimes do not leave money at the table if you're just, you know, with the standard pricing. So always flip the side. It's not you offering an hourly standard. If flip the side, how far is the customer willing to pay to solve this extremely painful problem? And that's a mindset shift that makes lots of things different. And, and easy. It's a, it's pure psychology, Mel, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that you're, you hit the nail on the head there that not all work is created equal. So, you know, for example, if a, somebody came to me today and said, this crisis has happened. We need you to, we'd love, we wanna pay you to do crisis comms. And for me to do that, a, I need to drop everything else. To focus on that client. And it's very high risk work. It's very messy. It's gonna take a lot of my brain power, but also it's gonna take a lot of my skill That's very different to say, doing social media copywriting, you know, um, that's, it still takes skill. It still takes experience, but it's not drop everything. It's not dedicate my life to you for five days. It's not really complex issues. It's a very different thing. So I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head that that's one of the things we need to think about in the equation is what is the type of work that you are doing. What else would you consider, sorry, go ahead. Let me let, let me exactly confirm what you said. It depends on the type of work that you are working and also the type of client. And as a consultant, you can be solving everyone's problem, but as an experienced consultant, you start, you know, getting to the. Higher. I always call this the four Ps, which is you should always be focused on finding a client with a very painful problem and high purchase power. This is how you sustain your business. You can waste lots of time working with, it's not waste of time, but it's a good business. But when you look for more painful problem with a more purchase power, this is how you grow your business. This is how you scale your business and the most simple and popular entry, real example here. Mel, I don't know. In Australia, how much does it cost to buy a small bottle of water over the sup from the supermarket? How much is that? Uh, from the supermarket, it's, oh, probably about $3. If you go to a football stadium, it's probably about six. If you go to an elegant restaurant, how, how much is that? Oh gosh, yeah, you're probably paying for water from Fiji Springs. So it's uh, $10 a bottle probably. If you go at the airport. How much is that? Oh, highway robbery is what that is. Um, yeah, that's my point. Yeah, it'd be $9 probably. It's the same thing. You can be purchasing it from $3 to six to nine 10 and whatever. It's the same experience and skill you are selling. You can sell it at $3, $6, $9. I mean, that's the whole thing. Smart consultants, and we discussed also the business owner mindset. If you are a real business owner mindset, you'll be, you know, putting your expertise in the right place. So again, it's the four piece, the very painful problem and, and purchase power that changes a lot. The business. Mel, I, I'm sure that you have been there yourself with lots of experience as well in, in this area. Yeah. Yeah. And what you're speaking to also is the value that you're going to bring to that client. So for example, if we're working with a client who is about to go through a big, people change, a big restructure, they need it to go as smoothly as possible. They don't have the capability or the experience in house to do that. That's why they're bringing us in. Well, we're adding a lot of value to that process. You know, we're, if we do our jobs well and work well with. The people in the business and they're willing to take on what we do. You know, that's, that's a whole other thing. Um, then we can help to reduce turnover. We can help to, you know, uh, maintain engagement. We can basically help with business goals. So one of the things you have to look at, I think, is go well, how does what I do contribute to that business achieving its goals? Because that's where the value is. It's you are helping them to get ahead in some way. Um, and like you said, Fady could be, they've got a very painful problem they need to solve or maybe they've got big opportunities, big expectations about where they want to go, and you are gonna help them get there. So there it is. What is the value you are adding to that business? That's a huge mindset shift. Let me also underline, I, I, I love underlying what what you're saying,'cause that makes lots of difference when as a consultant, here are my services that I'm offering versus. Here is I'm helping you to scale your business. It can be, again, the same services, but how you shape it, how you propose it, and how you offer it. Because again, like consultants, everyone is a consultant or can be a consultant, but when you are the person who grows their business as a consultant, that's a totally different positioning and I cannot agree more here. This brings me to another framework that I love, which is a little bit nasty word. Sorry for that, but it's called the fucking weed, which is, it sounds bad and intentionally, I I, because people remember bad words. Yes, they do. Exactly. So intentionally, I, I put it that way. But it stands for fears, challenges, needs, wants, and desires. So whatever you are offering, it should be in one or many of those buckets if you are selling. A service that's a commodity. If you are addressing people's fears or challenges, then yes, we always say fear cells and the most, you know, popular industry worldwide, making billions is the insurance industry. They play on the f, you know, you pay monthly law millions of, of of dollars just to move away. Fears. So fears and challenges. People are either willing to pay money, people, I mean corporates or individuals either to move from something negative, which is fears and challenges. Or to get closer to something positive, which is needs, desires, and wants. So either or. If you shape your services in those directions, that's much more better positioning rather than as a consultant, X, Y, and Z offering this, this is the scope of work. And that's the mistake that most of the people, myself included, I started working from that perspective and then I shifted the, the mindset. I'm sure also. You have some sort of a mindset and framework here as well. Yeah, and, and definitely from a perspective of learning from mistakes as well. Uh, like you said, there are things that I will never do an hourly rate for, uh, because then people pick and choose it. It's not a menu of options. Um, but I think there are times when you can use that kind of to go, well, look, this is outside of scope. If you want to do those things, then. It's gonna cost you on an hourly rate of this. Uh, but you, one of the things I do want to think about here with the value piece is also that as you get more experienced, as you grow your reputation as an expert in your field, you can start charging more because people will be more willing to pay if, if your reputation is there to support that if people trust you, um, particularly if you're referred through word of mouth. So while you might have a start rate. Over time, hopefully you'll be able to, you know, continue to grow that, uh, so that you're still, you know, like you were saying, Fady, how much are people willing to pay to have you? And it's not the other way around that you are, you're undercutting yourself to get the work. You just mentioned the magical keyword. Let me highlight two things that you said. One. Mm-hmm. As you grow with the business, you grow with the experience, you grow with the number of clients you must, it's not, you can let me add to that. You must raise your prices so that you grow your business. You get out of your circle, and this is something that we're most consultants struggle with. What if I, you know, get my prices higher and I lose some clients? You know, I always say it's much better to work with like three good clients rather than 20 clients who are sucking up time and energy and not paying as well. So do not be afraid to raise your prices provided you have. All the factors, all the components and ingredients that enable you to put your prices higher. This is one thing, and as soon as you do that, there is the RR framework. Referrals and recommendations. Whenever you have a happy client, always if you don't ask, you don't get. As we mentioned in the last episode, always whenever you have a happy client, if you ask them for recommendations that you can use on your website, your LinkedIn profile, wherever it's a social proof, your social. Creatures at and at at end of the day. So if I see a recommendation that will help me get closer to you. So referral and recommendation from a happy client are always the tools that can help you grow the business. Mm-hmm. And put your prices higher. So it's, it's not something that we should be afraid of, right? No, and, and honestly, the times when I have. I put my prices up, uh, for my existing clients, I've given them lots of warning and it usually comes at a key moment, you know, like the new financial year and this is how much extra you'll be paying for the most part. I've had one client come back and try to renegotiate and they were a nonprofit, so I kind of get where they were coming from, but everybody else just kind of sucks it up. And the thing is too, like our world is getting more expensive. It's not just that. We're worth more from the value we bring, but your insurance is gonna go up. You know, your cost of subscriptions are going to go up, your cost of living is going to go up. Your wages for your people will go up, all those things. So if you don't raise your prices, you're gonna stop making a profit anyway. Um, and most people do expect that, that over time you will have to raise your prices anyway, just to cover raising costs. One thing I do wanna delve into a little bit before we go into how to structure a proposal. Is there different ways you can offer your services? And, uh, Fady, I know you are really good at this in terms of packaging services as products. Could you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. Thank you for opening this because really, I, I love that. And what I learned is that there are multiple things, so. Like DYI, which is do it. Uh, DFI. Sorry, do it for you. So I do everything, you know, we agree on something and then I build for you all the templates or the checklist, everything, which can be sometimes time consuming. So. Do it for you is something that you can start with. Like one stop shop where you provide a consulting, which is helping them coaching and then doing something. Then do it with you, DYI, so that we work on it together and you create the systems, the processes, the documents for whatever you're consulting with, and I help you with that. So as you go, you should move from, you are doing everything for the customer to doing everything with. The customer. And then while doing something with the customer, there are always like few technical things still that you can provide, like the digital ecosystem in front instead of a consultant working like an hourly rate where he or she enters the room and stays physically there, why not build, let's say an online course or um, an ebook around that or an assessment. So you just offload. The consultant time, uh, a little bit. So it's a smart way of, you know, how to build an ecosystem of digital products that can help you save time and effort and do the same for your clients as well. Not every single thing should require like an hours and hours from your personal involvement with, with the client. Does that answer your question? Yeah, absolutely. Because I think particularly for B2C or oh, sorry, B2B kind of services, it's. Hard to think of what you do as a product, but when you can package things into products, so it can make it actually easier to price. So for example, with the training that I offer, I offer, uh, a one hour online masterclass, a four hour in person or a full day in person training. And what I've gone and done is gone, okay, my base cost is how much it costs me to deliver that training. So those four hours that I'm there, the travel to and from. The pre-meetings, all that sort of stuff. And I go, okay, if I'm charging myself out at an hourly rate here of let's say$250 an hour, then I go, okay, well it's gonna take me a total of 12 hours to deliver a four hour training session. And so add that up. That's the base cost. That's just how much it costs to do business. Then you've gotta put a profit on top of that. So what I've gone through and done is kind of figured out, okay, what's my standard process for a training session? So let's say it's a four hour session. While I might have, uh, a briefing meeting and then another meeting to take them through what we're gonna cover in the training, get their feedback, et cetera. Then there's the travel there and the preparation building, the whole slide decks, the materials, all that sort of stuff. The four hours delivery itself, and then all the follow up work. And I've gone overall, that's a cost of, let's say $6,000 and that is the price of that product. And then 12 hours might be $12,000 or whatever that looks like. I've packaged training in that way. And it is a, it is one way to do it. Absolutely. Uh, it makes it easier for you and it makes it easier for the client as well.'cause it's just a one cost. Um, but then I might also, uh, let's say a client comes to us and says, we need help with this change project. If it's a relatively simple one, they've got very clear deliverables. Again, I can cost that out and go, okay, well we're gonna have a weekly meeting every week for six weeks. We're going to do the change comm strategy, the key messages, we're gonna write all these comms. We're gonna do X, Y, and Z. So overall, that's gonna cost this much, including. This is important. Two rounds of revisions, so be very clear on how many revisions. Uh, and then in my terms and conditions, which we'll get to in a bit, I say, you know, anything outside of that scope attracts an hourly fee. So you can do it that way. And then the other way we do things is a retainer. And this is where we have long-term relationships with our clients. And it's usually, okay, we're gonna do 10 hours a week, six hours a week, whatever that looks like. They get billed monthly. They know exactly how many hours they've got. Mm-hmm. We agree on the work that we will do and won't do. Uh, and it works month by month from there. So there are different ways that you can price and they're much better ways of getting value for everybody than just doing an hourly rate. Now that said, if, like I said earlier, a client comes to me and says, oh my gosh, shit's just hit the fan. We need crisis comms help right now I'm gonna say, cool, but that's 600 bucks an hour because I'm gonna go on an hourly rate there. It's impossible to kind of script that out and you know, all that sort of stuff. And they're in such dire need that usually Yep, sure, go ahead. Do what you gotta do. Um, so again, those are some ways of packaging things that you do that that, that makes me curious if this is the methodology of pricing. So how do you structure. A well done, clear proposal. What are the main components? Oh, let's get into the guts of it. Yeah, that's, that's interesting. Wait. Yes. A good template. We love a good template. Mm-hmm. Uh, so first things first is a cover letter. Uh, I, one thing you should definitely not do is just like a one page quote like you're. You're quoting for a plumbing job, um, because you are, you, there's very likely the client is going to be told by their procurement people in the business, we need to get three quotes, right? So yours has to stand out. So firstly, you're gonna have to put a lot of effort into your proposals. Tip around that. Find out first what their budget is because you don't, and I've made this mistake. Spend hours and hours on a proposal, and then they just go, oh no, we just don't have the budget for it. And it's just a waste of everybody's time. So straight up front, when you're talking to them about what they need and doing a bit of a briefing call, ask them what the budget is. And if you can't, if it's too low, just say, look, I, you know, you honestly, you probably can't afford what I do, but here's some options for you that, and that might just leave it. So first thing is that cover letter and it's, it's your opportunity to go, Hey, this is what we do and this is how it's relevant to you. So here's some clients we've worked with in similar or work that we've done that's similar, et cetera. Then what I do is go into a short biography, and that might be of me, or it might be of me and whoever on my team I'm putting forward to do the work. And it's again, here's the qualifications, who we've worked with. Those are things, and we do tailor those as well to whoever the client is. And then it's case studies. So it depends again, on what the work is. I might include two or three big case studies or maybe a page of smaller ones. But again, similar training that we've run or similar change communication strategies that we've worked on or similar industries. You know, lots, we've done lots of work in aged care and community services, so I might, that might be the thing I highlight in those case studies. And then we go into, okay, well what did they want? What did they tell us they want? What did we hear? And how might we help to solve that problem? Like you were saying earlier, Fady be like, show that you've understood the problem or the opportunity that they're trying to take a hold of and how you will help to solve that. So this is where you get into the nitty gritty of, you know, this is, uh, the approach will take all that sort of stuff. I always offer three options. And the reason is it's, and we'll talk about different psychologies here, I'm sure, but this is called the Goldilocks Effect. Where people are really risk averse, so you give them a big number and you're just like, ah. And, but they also want more value than the cheap option. They wanna feel like they're getting more value. So when you've got a middle option, I tell you 90% of the time clients take that option. So option one, which I call basics, is only what they've asked for. Option three is VIP, and it's what they've asked for, plus everything bells and whistles. The middle ground. So basic better, best, basically, um, is where you go, here's what you asked for, plus, here's a couple of extra things that I know you're going to need because they haven't thought of these things. And the brilliance of that is they go, oh yeah, we hadn't thought about that. Like, okay, you want me to write this thing for you? But then who's going to communicate it to your staff? Have you? And they have, oh yeah, we didn't think about that. You know, so I always have three options. I highlight the middle one again, it's just these visual cues. Uh, and then I go into, I don't put any pricing on that yet because I want people to read through what we're offering. Then I go into a methodology. Because again, as humans, we like certainty. We like to know what we're getting. So it's literally a one pager with a bit of a flow chart saying, so here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna start with an initial workshop, then we'll do a reverse brief. Then we'll do first round of drafts, you'll have reviews and approvals. Then we'll design and deliver whatever that you know that looks like. And people really love that methodology because it gives them that clarity on how you work and what they can expect from you. And then it's terms and conditions and in those terms and conditions is where I include what the investment will be for those different options. So they have to read through everything before they get to that instead of jumping straight to numbers, um, terms and conditions. I know it's gonna be different depending what jurisdiction you're in, but it's things like, well, what's your cancellation policy? What's your refund policy? Uh, we include things like, you know, travel and accommodation isn't included in this price, but that'll be billed on top of stuff. Um, that, you know, anything outside of scope will be charged at this rate, uh, that you get two rounds of revisions on all written materials that are timely. Production is based on your timely turnaround of approvals. You know, there's only so much we can do. Uh, it's things like who owns the ip, uh, confidentiality clause. Some clients will make you sign an NDA anyway, that's fine. Uh, and it's also, uh, deposit. So particularly if not so much for the retainer, but for the packaged options, I always ask for a 30% deposit upfront. Because I've been caught out where you do all this work and then they just disappear. So when they've paid 30%, they're much more likely to stick around for the other 70%. What about you, Fady? What do you put in your proposals? Yeah. I, I love that you just built, you know, the, the perfect template here and, uh, I agree with every component here. Yeah. The little, a little bit of psychology difference here. Uh, what I do with, uh, structuring, I also, I started with two options because it makes it easier for decision making and, uh, for, for long time I've been doing so maybe like introducing a middle option. Yes. Now I agree with the idea, but I flip it. I always start from the very fledged, full fledged offering, and then I take away something so people are losing something and then they're. You know, so it's, it's a matter of, you know, this is exactly what you asked for. What I get is, okay, I don't need any add-ons. I don't need like bells and whistles. If you flip it the other way around, this is out of previous experience, the full fledged service that can get you quickly to your business objective. Maybe I think about that, or worst case, I go to the second option. So it's a psychological thing. Are you offering something and then adding components and getting the price higher. Or the full fledged service and then taking away from me some components and getting the price lower. It's, it's just like a psychology thing. Mm. But also the other thing that you, it's a magical, that you just quickly mentioned that. I would like to stop here, Matt, because you, this is gold, what you just mentioned quickly, which is ask for their budgets. It makes loads of difference between. Understanding the picture versus just putting hours and hours of the proposal meeting, et cetera, and then, ah, that's too high for us. No, sorry for that.'cause three things happen either upfront you get an idea that you know this is not within the price range, or maybe you can deliver something very tiny to gain their conference. They're happy client, you know, and that would drive them to go forward or from the first day. Both sides know that we can work together with the required time, effort, and, and budget. So always asking this question upfront is, um, is is extremely critical. Yet many consultants, especially in early days, we might be afraid of mm-hmm. Throwing that question, it might be perceived like wrongly in a way or another. Do, do you agree? Sometimes it's, it's fearful or, yeah. Abs Yeah, absolutely. So. I definitely felt that way. It felt rude to ask about money, you know, and it's probably a cultural thing as well across a few countries, but the way I frame it now is, um, what's your budget? Because I don't want to give you, you know, the Eiffel Tower if, or you can afford is the local train station. You know, I wanna make sure that I can work within your budget. Um, and most people are pretty good with that. Mm-hmm. When they say, you know, maybe I will pick a number over the year, $5,000. I'm like, okay, well I can't do everything you want for 5,000. This is what I could do, like components of that work for 5,000. Uh, and have that honest conversation upfront and just, you know, say, I, I wanna make sure that you know, I'm not wasting your time. And that I'm not proposing something that you actually just can't afford. And most people are pretty happy if you talk about it in that term. It's about them and and them managing their budgets. I hundred percent confirm this. And anyone who's watching this, I would highly encourage you to put it up front, not just like the greedy person trying to understand, you know, how to snatch our money, but it's like win-win situation. And I think you, you perfectly mentioned that I don't want. To offer you the Eiffel Tower while you are looking for XO or, or y. So I just want exactly offer you what you are looking for and budgeting even within a range or a frame that can help you offer you the best thing that you are looking for. So it's just like very friendly conversation where, yeah, it's win-win rather than, you know, being skeptical or being afraid of asking this question. This question is critical to be asked for at the beginning or else, you know, things can go wrong, at least in terms of time and effort and. Proposals and revisions and meetings, and you just, it's, it's in the loop that could be easily avoided if you ask that question early enough, right? Yeah, absolutely. You just, you know, you're gonna waste everybody's time. You waste your time. It wastes their time. Let's just have an honest conversation upfront and, uh, you know, again, most people are okay with that. They're okay with that. And again, like you said, Fady, they might not have an exact number, but they're able to give you a range. That's better than nothing. It's better than, you know, if, if their range is still way out, you just go, well, nah, like, you know, I'm not the person for you. Uh, but it also just gives you an idea. Okay. If they're thinking 30 to $50,000, for example, well then my lowest, you know, my basic option would be the 30,000 and the VIP would be the 50,000. Somethings in between that. So it's actually quite helpful as well. Yeah. Sometimes the other thing, oh, sorry. Some, sometimes if they don't have even a range, maybe you can guide them with your own range. You know, sometimes I say out of previous experience, in similar cases, you know, we could either do x, Y for that amount of money more or less, or we can do so sometimes you can guide them and that would help them even decide, because let's be honest, sometimes even like. Many customers, they wouldn't know, you know, the price of consultancy because mm-hmm. It is like very crowded market with, with lots of differentiation. So many times, honestly, when I ask them, the honest answer is really and honest. And frankly we do not know. So when you flip the other way around and you try to help them with your frames, you know, this is frame number one. This frame it, it again, asking this early enough and clarifying those ranges. It makes things, things. Um. Easier and clear, but sorry, I just, I interrupted you. Oh, I, I think I, I had a, a brain spark, um, where, which I've probably forgotten already, but it was something you said about, oh gosh, I've, I've lost it already. How is that? No, it's gone. Sorry. It's gone. I'm sorry. Oh, no, I remember, I remember, I remember. Um, when you are doing your pricing, like I said, you know, uh, when you're working out, particularly a package kind of thing, and you go, right, well this project is probably gonna take us overall 50 hours and if I, you know, I'm costing that at $250 an hour. Um, and remember too, you've gotta pay tax on all this money eventually as well. Uh, so make sure you're thinking about that. But put in some fat, add the fat. Mm. Because there is always going to be extra meetings that you weren't planning for or extra work that you didn't see coming because of whatever reason or some scope creep or whatever it might be. So always add in some extra fat. And I kind of. Go. Okay, well look, I've added it up in my head and it's very rudimentary. You know, it's gonna take us 20 hours to write this strategy. It's probably gonna take us about 20 hours to do all this actual drafting. The comms, you know, these meetings are gonna take 12 hours over the course of these weeks, blah, blah, blah. Let's say that comes up to, you know, 45 hours or whatever. I'll go, you know what, I'm gonna add an extra 10 because that gives me a little bit of a buffer. And if I'm particularly if I'm paying a team member and I end up having to pay them more to do something, I've got the buffer. So think factor that into your pricing as well. That's extremely important to avoid any surprises and surprises with pricing or business risk. Huge business risk that not everyone understands. How huge is the risk, because maybe, yes, as you said, we are. You know, we have price, it decently, everything is, is fine, but we did not add that layer fat or that addition in margin. And then all of a sudden there is a software subscription that we are using that was up, or we need to, we, we discovered that we need to get another someone on board. Then what do we do? We stop losing money ourselves. So this is a exactly really important tip. Yes. A hundred percent. Yeah. Always put the fat in. Uh, and when you are doing your terms and conditions, absolutely. If you've got a lawyer or a solicitor that you can get to help you draft that, please don't rely on ai. Totally. Um, yeah, because as I said, every jurisdiction is different. So you might copy and paste some terms and conditions you found online. But they don't apply in your country or your state or whatever. There are certain things that won't apply. So absolutely get somebody who has a legal mind to look over that for you and double check that you're covered. Um, I think particularly around the IP stuff. So when you create something for a client, who does that belong to? Does it belong with you as the creator or does it belong with them? And how does that, how is that gonna work? Uh, if you ever wanted to enter that work into an awards competition, are you able to do that according to the agreement that you've got with the client? Uh, what's your payment schedule? So if you are doing a monthly retainer, what, when can they expect to pay? And how many, how many days do they have to pay that? So there's lots of little things you're going to need to think about. Yeah, I think that's extremely critical and I cannot agree more. Do not ask Cha to revise this for you because every single country, especially when it comes to ip, every single state might have certain structure, you know, for the ownership of the ip. Can I apply for a contest? That's a good example. Who owns, can I reuse the same framework, the same tools that I used here for this project? So AI would be very generic unless, you know, it's like super. Skills with prompting that you force it to get you, you know, the latest and the most, uh, relevant, uh, terms on conditions. But having a lawyer with all the expertise, because sometimes even legally and a few wordings might cause lots of different, where AI is not aware on actually on the ground such wording would cause you a problem. So this is the human. Factor of expertise is extremely needed in this, this part of the, the proposal. I can't agree anymore here. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing I want to talk about was probably two things and uh, one of, in particular I'm interested to get your thoughts on is when you are quoting for a client in a different country and they use a different currency. So we've had this a few times, like clients in Sweden, clients in um, Canada, and. You know, what is expensive for them might be cheap for us and vice versa as well. So, I don't know, Fady, if you've had much experience in, in quoting for people in different countries and how you do that, how you make sure it's fair. Like, you know, you're gonna have some countries that are low middle income countries that their, their money is worth very little compared to what you're charging. So what you're charging is gonna feel very expensive. Do you make allowances for that? Yes, and I think the best skill I learned here, especially, yes, I do have many clients from, from abroad, so always ask for, you know, the severity of the problem, what they did they did so far to solve the problem, and how much did they invest in that. Mm-hmm. This will give you some, some clues about, you know, maybe it's not a very severe problem that they will not put. More money to adjust minimal, or that's an extremely severe problem where they invested loss and currently they're not able to invest more. So I think the best skill ever during a sales meeting, Oracle, a call, is to ask the right questions, especially if it's a customer abroad, asking the right question, give you a full picture about how to price specifically for that. Mm-hmm. And let, let me be very, very clear as well, sometimes with clients abroad. That when I understand how painful is the problem and how, how you know, their purchase power. Sometimes immediately on the call, I had a figure in mind. Maybe I raise it like 1.5, sometimes two, and sometimes while I was saying that I know it's double my price, when I was saying that I was a little bit afraid, and then the response, okay, yeah, I can live with that. Where's your bank account? Oh wow, it worked. You know? Yeah. Always asking the right questions can solve that, especially. With the client abroad. I, I hope this answers your question. Yeah, absolutely. I, I think you raised a good point too, because just because a co, a company is based in, let's say, um, like Malaysia, their dollar is very poor compared to like some other countries, doesn't mean that that company doesn't make a hell of a lot of money. So be aware of that too. Like who are you talking to? Like, you say, what's their purchasing power? Um, yeah. I know when I've quoted for, uh, jobs in the United States. You know, 3000 Australian dollars is like 1500 US dollars. So to them it's nothing. So, hey, why not raise it up? Because then also you want them not to think of you as cheap. You don't want to be the, the person who's known for being cheap. You want to be known as the person who's being good. So undercutting other people never works in your favor in the long run. Um, and the other thing I wanted to think about in this conversation too, Fady, was when you are working with nonprofits. So there's different ways that you can price for nonprofits. Uh, I sometimes just do like, Hey, overall you get a 10% discount, or I'll throw in some extra stuff that, you know, they can, they get for free, like an extra training session or something. How do you work with nonprofits? I, I think you, you said all was the, the magical world, which is offering something additional. Usually. I don't like the idea of discounting, because again, it lowers the perception. By the way, one of the best lessons I learned is that pricing is a positioning tool, by the way. Mm-hmm. Your pricing says a lot, especially if it's the first time you work with this client. Pricing says a lot about your quality and being known as the cheapest is the worst thing ever you would like to do for your business as a consultant. You know, sometimes people intentionally, they like to be, you know, the cheapest so that they get more business. But if you serve peanuts, you get monkeys, you know? Is that right? Exactly. Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Yep. It, it, it's extremely critical. So when you price it at a, let's say a little bit higher, you are perceived that with nonprofits, if that's too much for them. I always try to understand the, the budget as we said. And then, you know, within this budget, maybe I offer them something, double the scope. So for them overall, you know, it, it makes total sense unless it's really, really beyond them. May maybe we start discounting, but offering add-ons is a much better positioning strategy rather than discounting. Mm. It's like. You know, you've got two skincare products and they're probably both made in the same factory in China, but one's got a Gucci label on and one's being sold in a supermarket, and the one with the Gucci label is being, you know, charged charging it out at $200 a pop. The one in the supermarket you can buy for 20. Pretty much gonna get the same result from both, but. The one that's got a higher price to it is gonna be more valued. It's the one that people will want because it's almost a status symbol for some people too, right? A hundred percent. A hundred percent, a hundred. It's all about perception and your pricing, again, is a positioning and perception tool. One of the other things, if it, it's really impossible to add on, but they really need a discount, I always think about it and I communicate it clearly as win-win situation. So for example. If they ask for 20% discount. So my immediate response can be, yes, that's possible. Can you provide the full payment upfront this week so that it's win-win if, and it happens several times actually. Yeah. If they're able to do so, they get the discount. I get my money upfront. Everyone is happy. So yes, it's always about like real healthy relationship win-win where everyone is happy. Discounting is on a very exceptional cases where also it should be. Win-win. But you know, adding on makes people even more happier most of the time. Yeah, I totally agree. It's a, it feels like I'm getting extra value for free, you know? Exactly. Uh, and 'cause you are. Really. Um, and I think that's really important too. So, Fady, we've talked a lot about how to write the proposal, things to put in there, um, packaging your services. One of the things that I've got on my website is, uh, template packs. So. You know, again, thinking about what do you often get asked for that, um, or that people love that you produce when you work with them, that maybe you could package up as a passive income stream. Don't make a lot of money outta those things. But, um, you know, I've got loads of template packs on there and I'm working on some others at the moment. And honestly, there's stuff that, you know, I've done for clients and gone, oh, that would make a really good template pack. They strip out all the detail and make it, you know, blah, blah, blah. You've got stuff there. Um, the way I've priced those is. To make them low, a low cost, but high, you know, so for more volume. So that's different to a consulting product. This is about you download this pack and you get all these things that you can use off you go, you know, have fun, may never see you again, but they can also be a good, uh. Visibility tool as well. So people go, oh, those templates are really great. Now I need more help with learning, you know, actually upskilling or something. Uh, so think about what are the products that could act as part of your funnel as well, and how might you price those differently to your, you know, your core business. I, I just love that because this is really a very interesting area that I help my clients with. As you said, there is the top of the funnel, like small pack of template, like low price, low friction, low price, but this is the top of the funnel. If they purchase this and you, they get lots of value from Mel through this. What else? Maybe they found an ebook or a detailed guide or a course, but then to get Mel herself onboard herself in the room, this is where they are happy to pay lots for because they have been getting lots of value. Low friction, low price. Throughout the whole funnel. So I think shaping like the, the, the funnel through different layers of digital products. And then as a consultant, when you enter the room yourself, this is, you know, the happy ending for, for that journey of learning that makes best of use of your time. It's aside income again, not like making millions while you sleep in terms of passive. Mm-hmm. But it's a lead magnet. It's the funnel. Yep. It's saving you time and effort with repetitive questions. So I highly. Encourage this idea of building that tiny digital products over your website. Brilliant idea. Brilliant. Yeah. And top tip with pricing too. A number that ends in a nine or a seven is more attractive than any other number. And so when people go, oh, like it's $97, or It's $49, that is more likely to get people to buy than $50. There's loads of research around this, so. Also in your pricing and proposals. Think about that too. Like, can you sort of go, well, instead of it's $6,000, it's 5,990, so people feel like they're getting a bit of a bargain 'cause it's not six. Uh, and and so there's those little tweaks as well that can actually make a difference. Uh, you know, to be human is to be biased and to be human is to, to, to think differently. So you've gotta tap into the people that you're talking to as well. Psychology. Sales is all about psychology. Oh, okay. That's, that's the fact that not, not every consultant knows, but say, marketing, sales, and business growth is, in my humble opinion, you might oppose that, but in my humble opinion, it's 80% psychology. A hundred percent. You're asking humans to do something. You're asking humans to change their behavior in some way or buy something new. That's psychology. Um, and like you were talking about before, when you put the highest price first, that's an example of primacy bias. Mm-hmm. There's been research around menus, you know, menus and restaurants. If you put the highest price wine first, for example, uh, people are more likely to buy the second highest. Then if you flipped it because they go, oh, that's really expensive, so the next one doesn't feel as bad. Whereas when you flip it, it's like, oh, that's really cheap. So now the expensive one seems really expensive, and it's those little things. You, again, think about the fact you are talking to humans. Humans are not robots. They, they've got feelings, they've got opinions, they're, they can be influenced. So you've got a whole toolbox of tips there that we've shared tonight. Get amongst it, I think. Yeah, that's a whole toolbox. I, I like, I think we shared lots of, many tools and, and frameworks and everything. So I think everyone listening to this, you're good to go now? Yeah. That's it. Uh, so Fady, shall we do our key takeaways? Yes, you go first. Okay. Uh, I really liked what you said about prices positioning because it is, it stands for your brand. It's every touch point about. Person has with your business from price through to everything else is a symbol of your brand. And so don't undercut yourself for fear of not getting enough work. Price your value. I, I love that. And my say would be my two beloved frameworks, which is the four piece. Look for customer with a very painful problem and purchase power. This is how we grow your business. The other one is do not offer your services as a commodity or you'll be compared to everyone else. But figure out what are the fears, challenges, needs, wants, and desires, which is the fucking we. And I think the other thing which we both agree on is give multiple options. Don't just give one price. Give people options. Uh, you're more likely to get more out of that because when they see what else they could be missing, they're more likely to pay more. Uh, but also people like to feel like they have choice. That they have power over the decision, so they get to decide and that's a really good position for them to be in. Oh, Fady, that was a lot. Uh, I think people are gonna need to listen to this again, but of course we'll have show notes and all those sorts of things as well. Uh, and we are coming up towards the back end of this series, uh, as we come towards the end. Fady, has there been a standout moment for you so far as with any of the guests that we've recorded with or any of the, the golden insights that we've both shared? Uh, I cannot pinpoint one thing or else, you know, it'll be unfair because I think what we did, and I'm confident about that man, that we have created sort of a high quality guide for a consultant who is starting the journey across different things. So there is no like specific moment. But this whole guide is a heavy meal to be digested. But once you digest it, you're good to go. You are on the right track. What do you think? Yeah, I agree. I also think, and people will hear this as they hear more of our guest episodes, there's a different journey for everybody. There's no one size fits all. You're going to find different ways to get into this, uh, journey. You're going to find different things and systems and processes that work for you. That's okay. The, but what we're hoping to do is give you lots of different ideas so you don't feel like you have to follow a specific plan when it may not be the right plan for you. Uh, and again, I think the generosity of the people who have come on this show too. Uh, has been amazing and, uh, we've still got a couple of episodes to go and you'll hear from some of those people. Uh, they are so the people in this community, the consulting community more broadly across the world, are so generous. They're so willing to, as you know, pick your brain, let them pick your brains and have a chat and share ideas. So just reach out. Yeah, I, I can't agree more. There are lots of help and support, and as you said on this episode, be, you know, you always, when you ask, you'll be surprised at how many people are here to help. And I think that was the core of, you know, this, this podcast, you know, all the lessons learned, all the problems, the, the pitfalls, you know, the traps that we both of us and our guests have fall into. We just package this like a bunch of lessons learned from different experts. So you don't do those mistakes, but you quickly jump on those learnings and you can capitalize and grow your business at a much better and more solid space and and speed. A hundred percent. Well, Fady, as always, it's been a pleasure. Same here. More here, and we'll see you all again next week. Stay tuned.