Episode 10: To scale or not to scale your business, with Kirsty Visman

Is a bigger team always better, or is it just an "ego metric"? In this episode of Reinventors: Consulting Conversations Over Coffee, Fady Ramzy and Mel Loy sit down with Kirsty Visman, Managing Director of the Brisbane-based agency Superdream.

Kirsty shares her fascinating journey from being the first hire of a UK-based firm to becoming its sole owner in Australia. After scaling her team to nearly 20 people, Kirsty made the bold—and unconventional—decision to downsize and "fractionalize" her workforce.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The Reality of Ownership: Debunking the myth that business owners "make money while they sleep" and have endless flexibility.
• The "Lumpy" Work Problem: Why Kirsty moved from an all-in-house model to a senior core team supported by specialist subcontractors.
• Passion vs. Admin: How to tell if growth is pulling you away from the creative work you actually love.
• Community over Competition: Why referring work to "competitors" is often the best move for your clients and your brand.

Whether you are a solopreneur looking to make your first hire or an agency owner feeling the "HR burn," Kirsty’s "horses for courses" approach offers a refreshing roadmap for building a profitable, sustainable business on your own terms.

Connect with Kirsty

• LinkedIn
• Superdream website

Connect with us on LinkedIn!

• Fady Ramzy
• Mel Loy

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome back to a new episode of ReInventors Consulting Conversations Over Coffee. I'm Faddy Ramsey. And I'm Mel Lloyd. Welcome Mel. So today is a very interesting episode about how to grow or not to grow your business. But before jumping into this interesting topic, just as a reminder for you all, if uh for any reason that's the first time you join us here, I'm Faddy Ramsey and I work as a personal branding consultant and strategist with a certain passion, high passion for Linkabin, and also I work as a coach for executive storytelling. How about you, Mel?

SPEAKER_02 0:40

I am Mel Loy. I run an agency called Cuddlefish out of Brisbane, Australia. Uh also known as Me Angin, if for the traditional custodians, and I'm also the favorite auntie of 15 nieces and nephews.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Oh wow, that's new. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

It's a lot. It's made Christmas very expensive. Uh need I go on. Um but today I'm super excited because we are talking to one of my really great friends, but somebody who I m admire immensely. And it's Kirsty Bisman. So Kirsty has almost 20 years of industry experience on the agency side of marketing and comms. She's worked with 200 and more local, national, and international brands. So names like Paramount Pictures, Australian Federal Police, Guide Dogs, Roadshow Films. Uh she's got some incredible clients on the books right now. But she's also the owner and managing director of SuperDream, which is an agency based out of Brisbane here. And we wanted to talk to Kirsty about whether or not to grow or scale your business because she's been on that journey from being a solopreneur kind of, uh running things solo, building a business, and then scaling it back. And in this conversation, we wanted to pick her brains about why she did that. What were the things that you could consider if you are in that realm of thinking about do I grow? Do I not grow? What are the pros and cons? So I think without further ado, we should get into the conversation. What do you think, Fatty? Yeah, let's do it. Kirsty, welcome to The ReInventors. How are you? I'm great. Thank you for having me. Oh, thanks for coming along. Uh so for those out there who may not know who you are. Oh, try not to hit the microphone, Mel. For those out there who may not know who you are, Kirsty, can you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about you. Who are you? What do you do? How did you come to get here?

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Yeah. So um I'm a marketer comms person through and true. Uh always worked agency side for my 20 plus year career. Um, and uh I'm now the owner and managing director of SuperDream, which is based down in Brisbane.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

And uh how did you come to own SuperDream? Because I know that's an interesting story. It is.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yeah. So I started off um SuperDream launched in Australia 10 years ago, and it was actually the second agency um or the second office for a UK-based agency, uh, based out of Birmingham originally. Uh, and they essentially had a client over here that they were trying to service from the UK and were struggling to do so. Um, so they decided to open an office, and uh, I was brought on as the first hire. So um I was essentially set up with a with a brand and a website and you know, full suite of assets and a client that was on retainer for four years and paying very well, and uh told that I could hire if I want and grow the business if I want, and it was kind of um the best sand kit that you could possibly ask for because the owner then went back to the UK. And while he um was very involved and we had regular catch-ups and he was very much a mentor for me, uh it was I was sort of left to my own devices over here. Um, and I mean, as someone who didn't really imagine owning my own agency, it really gave me the training wheels to sort of understand what that might mean and the kind of responsibilities that that entails because we quickly uh took on clients and one of the first two is Paramount Pitches, and I think that really set a standard for us in terms of the caliber of client that we wanted. Um, and we obviously hired and and grew in that way. Um, and I had Jason out of the UK working with me quite closely for many years, um, of like when the agency first started and and throughout that sort of teething stage of those early, you know, awkward toddler teenager years. Um and you know, unfortunately, um the plan was always for me to take over the agency and um when he retired to sort of pass that along to me. Um the UK office closed um due to Brexit. One of their biggest clients was um was Bosch. Um, and they kept their their business over in Europe, and so that really crushed them. Um and so it ended up being just SuperDream Australia. Um and um yeah, unfortunately Jason passed away in 2021, um, which was very sudden and sad. Um we're very close. Um, but I spoke to his wife and she was saying he always wanted you to take over eventually anyway, and it makes sense. So um yeah, my husband and I decided why don't we you know make it official effectively? So now I'm a sole owner of super drink.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

Oh sorry, Vadi, you're on mute. Uh there we go. I'm muted. No wait.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Okay. Christy, that was an amazing journey and uh and very, very inspiring to you know move from from from the business from the UK to Australia and going through all this. That's a really inspiring story, which brings me to the first question. What are the common myths that you see people having about owning your own agency? What do you see here?

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Um well, there's there's sort of two different things that I hear. So one is that um, you know, having your own business means you make lots of money and you don't have to work very hard, and it's you know, you have all the flexibility in the world. Um, that's definitely a myth. Um the flexibility is great, and you know, I was able to, you know, have a baby recently and and have maternity leave and all of that, but the business is always front of mind and you're working all the time realistically. Um, and it it's always something that you have in there, you know, in your head at all times. Whereas if you're working for someone, you can absolutely clock off at five and never think of it again. So I do think that's a myth. Um, and I guess the other end of the spectrum, which is the camp I came from, was that I could never own my own business, I could never take on that risk, or I could never um, you know, sort of branch out on my own. That was just such a a foreign concept to me. Both my parents worked within companies and or worked for government. Um, and most of the people in my life were weren't entrepreneurs. So it made sense to me to just work for people. Um, and I think a lot of people don't think that they could do it. Um, I was recently told by someone, oh, I thought to myself, if you can do it, I anyone can. And I actually found that a little bit insulting. But it I think where they were coming from was uh that I um branched out and done this, and I have put an agency that is successful. Uh, I'm employing people and I am, you know, winning new business and all of those things coming from a place where I didn't think that was the life that I would want and that I would lead.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

I think there's plenty of people out there who believe that they could never I just want to confirm this because it's it's not for everyone, right? I mean, owning an agency, it's not just you, you did it, I can do it. That that doesn't work any anymore. And another thing it doesn't work, it doesn't work this way. And another thing that you mentioned, which is very, very important, is that if you're a um owner of an agency or an entrepreneur, you don't make money while you sleep. Like that passive income hype over the internet, it's not real. Uh at least in the beginning. At least in the beginning, you don't wake up with with millions in your bag. So so that that doesn't uh that doesn't happen. I think Mel would agree also with that.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Oh, 100%. And I mean, because you know how I feel about influencers. Uh, you know, there's some high-profile ones out there, I won't name any, but you know, they their business is basically uh, you know, telling women in particular, you know, oh, you can create an online course and everybody will buy it and you'll make $5,000 a week and all this sort of stuff. And the reality is that isn't the case for 99.99% of people. Uh yeah, and like the people who are listening to this podcast or watching it on YouTube, you know, they are people who potentially want to start freelancing or just testing the waters. So, from your perspective, you know, you've been an employee, you're now a business owner. What are some of the key differences? Like one of the things you just said was, well, as an employee, you can knock off at five, see you later, and switch off. What are some of the other differences that maybe people should consider? Good and bad.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah. Um, I think one of the things for me that's been really positive is that I have the ability to control my environment and control the culture within my agency. Um, to most to the a large extent. Um, certainly more so than if I was working for someone or if I was in a situation where there was sort of meal management and things like that. Um I I certainly um, you know, have a fantastic team around me. Um, and I hire people because I want to spend time with them. Um, whether or not that's you know the best HR policy, I don't know, but it's successful for me so far. Um, because you do spend a hell of a lot of time with the people that you work with. Um and I think there's a lot of people out there who are extremely frustrated by, you know, their employer. Um, and my team probably are frustrated by their employer too, but I'm not because I don't have one. That's certainly appealing. Um yeah, and I I guess the bad um is is essentially just making sure that you can pay the people that work for you, um, and the constant money noise that you have in your head around, you know, your your profit and loss and where things stand, and you know, when you're going there, be able to invoice for that job and where that's going to fit. And we, oh no, we like didn't get that bid across. And what does that mean now for our forecast? And oh I mean, I I got into this industry because I love marketing and and creativity, um, and certainly spend a hell of a lot of time now in zero. So, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

It is one of those things we've we've talked about on the podcast as well, around having that business mindset. You need to switch from being, you know, you do marketing to actually you run a business, even as a solopreneur. You're running a business, and you have to your HR, you are marketing, you are the accountant in some respects. You're you're everything. Uh, and I think as you say, that's that is can be a downside. Some people love that stuff. I mean, good on them. Not my cup of tea, uh, which is why I pay somebody. What about you, Fardy?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, that's true. And uh, I like Christian when when you said, you know, when you talked about the team and people around us, many times we we spend most of our time, unfortunately, at work with people around us. So developing that type of culture around us, you know, we always say you are the average of the three to five people you spend your time the most with. So this is extremely important. But on the other side, I know that you made a tough decision a few years ago to downsize your team. So I'm very, very curious to dig deeper here.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Yeah, so um it actually really does stem from where my passion lies. Um, I did have a team of about 19. Um, it should have been uh 2018, 2019. Um, and we essentially bring a lot of our services in-house. The way I saw it was we offer digital, we offer design, we offer web. You know, we should have a you know, a branding expert of all of these people in-house, um, so that, you know, essentially we're not outsourcing too much and we're our profits stay in house and that kind of thing. But what I found to be an absolutely painstaking struggle was to keep all of those people busy, was almost impossible. Um, you know, you would have waves where one person would be, you know, pulling really big hours because they're trying to get the work done, and then there's other people just twiddling their thumbs because their, you know, their expertise and skill set isn't necessarily needed at that time. Um, and I just found that I was spending a lot of time kind of dealing with HR issues and trying to, you know, essentially just pay everyone and keep everyone busy. And it was draining. I it was the first time in my career, and particularly in my time at Super Dream, that I really didn't enjoy my job. And I was waking up thinking, oh, I have to go in there again. You know, what a punish. Um, and that really just made me pause. Um, we looked at our profitability, and while we were doing more work and we were certainly turning over more, we weren't necessarily more profitable than we were when we were a smaller team. Um, we had a little bit of natural attrition, which was good coming into COVID, obviously, which we weren't aware of on the horizon. Um and some of those people, particularly our designers that we've worked with for many years, you know, one of which, actually two of which decided to leave Brisbane. One's in Thailand and one's in Hobart. And we thought, well, why don't we freelance and we'll see how that goes? So we sent, and we still to this day send them all most of our work. Um, and I thought, well, if it can work for design, then why can't it work for digital and and other areas? Um, and over time that's that's sort of the decision we made. Um, so essentially what I have now is a team of five, um, mostly quite senior people um who have quite a lot of skills and expertise in their particular area. But when it comes to the kind of work that is really lumpy and not particularly stable, and I'm talking about branding, website projects, um, digital marketing, things like that that we do do a lot of, but it just goes like a roller coaster up and down. Um, and so we outsource all of those elements with our team managing the you know client comms and all of the strategy. Um, and we've worked with these people who, you know, are our partners in that space for many years now, they really understand us and they understand our clients. A lot of them have super drinking email addresses as well when they are required to be client-facing. And some of them we just are very upfront about when it comes to our videography team, for example. I'm not going to have, you know, all of those people in-house and all of that very expensive equipment that you have to keep maintained. Um, you know, with the people that we have that we work with in that area, we are very transparent with our clients about who uh we recommend for certain projects and who we work with. So it's certainly worked. Um, I don't have to deal with as many headaches when it comes to staffing and and constantly trying to make to maintain an effective workload for everyone. Um but I I think at our clients' benefit as well, because uh we tend to look at it as horses for courses. So if we've got a client that, you know, they might be more budget conscious than others, or a client that really, you know, appeal they've got a particular style in mind, then we might look at a different designer for that project. And we can do that because they're not in-house. So if they were in-house, we would be stuck with whoever we've hired um and their style and their way of working. Um, and so I think that gives us a lot more flexibility and our clients appreciate that as well. And in the at the end of the day, the profit margin has not been affected. So it's certainly been, you know, a good thing for us to do.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Yeah. There's a couple of things there I think I I want to go back to. I nearly said circle back, but I'm not that person. Uh one is you may raise a good point about subcontracting because I think when people are starting out as solo printers or freelancing, I'm not sure that everybody's aware that that is a really good way to get started. Subcontract to another agency, subcontract to somebody else. And you don't have to worry about the business development, you don't have to worry about any of that. You go in, you do some work, you get paid, and you move on to the next thing. And it's it is a very viable option. Um, I think the other thing is too, if you are going to grow your business, and you've proven this, there's different models for that. Whether you're hiring permanent, full-time, part-time staff, or you know, in my case, our entire team is subcontractors. So, you know, their hours ebb and flow with the work, like you say. Uh, and that's worked really well for us. It doesn't work for everybody, but there's different models. What do you think, Barty?

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Yeah, I I think it's always challenging because sometimes you need to grow faster and bring people in-house to get momentum, you know, to have uh everything under control, and sometimes you need to stay like light and and loose without having, uh, as Christy said, with with the burden of HR, but budget, salaries, everything. So it's it's challenging. Christy, what do you think? If I'm starting the journey and the journey is working fine for for me, then as a solopreneur, as Mel said, I will always have these two contradicting thoughts in mind. I want to speed up or maybe loosen up a little bit. How how do you advise me with these two contradicting ideas inside my brain?

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Oh I for me, it was a case of looking at what I enjoy. Um, and so part of my rationale with this as well was because I wanted to get back on the tools on certain projects. Um, and some people want to get out of off the dance floor and and you know, not be on the tools anymore. And and I respect that. Um personally, there are certain projects that I absolutely adore, and I really enjoy being client-facing and talking to clients and working through projects with them. And so when we got to that stage of our our business growth, I was no longer doing that because I had no capacity to do that. I was just constantly in the grind of winning work. Um and so I think it comes down to what your passion is as well. If you're going to create a business based around something that you're really passionate and interested in, then you know, you end up doing HR and admin, then if that's not your passion, then that can drain you pretty quickly. Um, so that's that was one thing. I think the other that I see a lot of is a little bit of ego in the business world around the size of your team and just having numbers because it sounds like you're you're doing well if you've if you're hiring all the time and and you've got you know heaps of bodies in the office, then it it must mean you're doing well. And in some ways that's true. It can be true. Um, but I don't think that the size of our team has ever been a hindrance in us winning work. Um, and we've certainly worked with some big names um and household brands. And I think, you know, as long as you're doing good work, then they don't really care how many people are are sitting at at the desk. And I think the other thing as well that I see client or have clients tell me about is that you know, bigger agencies have their pitch team and they go out and they meet with the client and then you never see them again. Once you win the work, you're palmed off to juniors and that sort of thing. And obviously with a team my size, that's never going to be case. Um, so I I feel like the clients get a much higher level of service out of the more senior team that we have. Um, and I can afford to do that because the team is small. So I think it's also about that capacity building and making sure that, yeah, if you have the have a smaller team that they're able to deliver big pieces of work for you.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

I think that the best way you shape it is the customer satisfaction, you know, as long as the customer is happy. It's it's my role as as the owner to be smart enough, you know, what to keep in-house so that it's customer facing and delivering high quality and what what else. So I think customer satisfaction and making the customer happy, turning them into brand ambassador is like the indicator what to keep in-house and what and and what to outsource. I I think that that's the best to see it. What do you think, Mel?

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah, I agree. And like Kirsty said, you know, some I don't mind if any of my subcontractors are the front face of the agency because I trust them all. I think they're amazing people and amazing at what they do. Uh and like you said, the client typically doesn't care as long as the work gets done to the standard that they're. So they don't care if they're a permanent member or a subcontractor as long as they're really good at what they do. Um, and when you said before, Curse, that you know, there is that bit of ego, and I've seen that too around, oh, I've got a team of 20. My first thought is how much is that costing you? You two. Um and look, all power to those big agencies have been built from scratch. There's some amazing stories in there. Um, it's definitely not my cup of tea. And I think for us, it's enabled us to actually be more flexible as well in what we do and what we don't do. And working with other agencies like yourself, like others that we know, you know, we get a we get approached by people saying, Oh, we want a brand campaign. I'm like, well, that's not really our gem, but I know somebody who they're amazing at or crisis comms. I know a guy in Melbourne who would be perfect for you for that. And you do build that little network, I think. Uh as long as you're not treating each other as competition, which we're not, there's enough work to go around. There certainly is, yeah. Community over competition all the time. Definitely. Love it. Community over competition. We've got a thing for words starting with C on this podcast. Like there's so many great words that start with C. Uh, yeah. Uh so cursed, we have three questions we ask everybody on this podcast. Are you ready for those? I am so ready. Love it. First question if you could wave your magic wand and change anything about freelancing or consulting, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Um, I have a joke in my inner with the team here because we all get along so well that um work would be amazing if we had no clients.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Log that. That's new.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yeah, but I just still get to hang out all the time and just do fun stuff. No, no. Um in in reality, our clients are actually really lovely. We we kind of make sure that we're we're not working with people who cause us any heartache or grief. So uh we're very lucky to have lovely people that we work with. Um I have certainly found um if I could wave a magic wand, it would be around boards and board setups, and particularly in the charity and not-for-profit space. There are a lot of boards out there with very well-intentioned people who don't actually know very much about marketing and and fundraising and things like that. Um, they have a connection to the cause, which is very, very important, um, but they don't really have that level of expertise. Um, and we've certainly come across a lot of boards that also want to be very heavily involved because they see the marketing side of things as being the fun stuff and they want to get their hands dirty, where that's not really the role of a board member. Um so I like I feel like there's there's sort of a lot to be said for a board that has people who know what they're talking about and have expertise in their area, um, but also let the charity get on with what they need to do. Um, and you know, we've we've certainly come across all sorts in in my career, but yeah, that would be my my magic wand.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

That's interesting. I I like that having no clients, or maybe having clients that pay money with no work. I I I love it now.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Having clients, I guess that's the dichotomy. If we don't have clients, we don't have a job, but you know, it would be fun.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Sure. I I would love to have many clients that are paying with no work. That's interesting. But that leads us to the second question here, Christy. And uh, who is the top consultant or freelancer that you admire and and why is that?

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah, this thing is hard because there's beautiful people like Mel who I've gotten to know over the years, and I like really admire what you've managed to achieve, particularly since leaving your corporate job. Um it's incredible. Um and I think you know, one of the people who has come into um my agency and and really done some incredible work with me, who I really admire, um, is actually Gary Schmidt. So Mel knows Gary as well. Um, he's a very, very knowledgeable branding expert and typographer who um essentially left agency world to to go and do his own king. Um, and he brings, you know, 30 plus years of experience working with some absolutely epic brands, um, has won many, many awards. Um, but you know, operates out of his home office and it's just him, you know, doing it by himself. And um he comes and presents to clients and they're just blown away by his knowledge and the way that he presents, but he's also um quite not egotistical, which is rare, I think, with creatives. Um, particularly male creatives, if can I say that? Um, so I you know, I I would always be confident in having Gary come and speech clients. I actually think it's a massive value add that we work with him. Um, and over the years he's done our rebrand, he's done Mel's rebrand, he's done uh many other people in our lives, pretty much everyone actually. Yeah. Um, and you know, if if the agency trusts him with their brands, then I think that that's a pretty big seal of approval for their clients.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

Yeah, I cannot rate Gary highly enough. Uh same reason he's a perfect combination of uh approachability and talent. And, you know, really just a spectacular human and creates amazing brands. Thank you. Uh okay, last of the questions. This is a consulting conversation over coffee, in my case, a cup of tea right now. So, what's your coffee or tea order of choice, Kirst?

SPEAKER_01 28:06

So it's summer here, and I have been getting absolutely stuck into cold brew with a dash of vanilla. So I just usually just drink like long wax, no, no, no trimmings, no frills. But the dash of vanilla is really getting me through my personal feelings.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

The game changer by the sounds of things. Well, Cursey, if people wanted to find out more about you and about Super Dream, what's the best way for them to do that?

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Yeah, so our website is superdream.com uh and our socials uh we're on TikTok and Instagram as we are superdream. Um, we you know dabble in Facebook, but no one really hangs out there anymore. So Instagram's the main one. Yep, brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Kelsey, thank you so much for being so generous with your time and your knowledge today. Faddy, any closing thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Uh yeah, just a quick note about the coffee because before recording we're discussing Christmas vibes. So I I came ready. That that's my coffee for today, and intentionally I I wore this green. So a little bit of Christmas vibes because this is recorded on the 10th of uh of December. So let's say in advance, uh Merry Christmas to you, Christy, Mel, and everyone. And it was an amazing, uh fun chat, Christy. Thank you so much for being with us here today.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Thanks very much.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

So, Mel, I think the the best three takeaways from from today, it was very interesting chat with Christy. What I would like people to remember here is number one, customer experience is the first priority for growing your business. Putting the customer first and then their experience, their happiness, their satisfaction with the service is like top priority, which drives all the mindset and all the decisions after that, along with a good team. What would be the next thought that that you grabbed here?

SPEAKER_02 30:06

Yeah, I think the other thing I took away from the decision about whether to grow or downsize, what Kirsi said was think about what's important to you and what you're passionate about. And yeah, she shared that story of how she found she was just getting bogged down in the the actual running of a business and the HR piece. And it wasn't what she loves doing. She loves being creative, she loves being on the tools. And so if growing and scaling means that you're no longer enjoying your work, then maybe that's a good sign to downsize or think differently about your model.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yeah, we don't need to replicate, let's say, the nine to five hassles.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

That's it. We left it for a reason.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Yeah, we we don't need to bring it back for for ourselves. And and that was the third point also. I like that you stressed on that. And that's a great advice for everyone. If you're starting as a pseudopreneur or freelancer, why not subcontract? You know, you don't need to do everything and burn out yourself again. Maybe you know someone who is the best at this thing that you can subcontract. So have like a small team of subcontractors, helpers, experts around you so that you stay light-weated, you reduce the risk until you have the level of business where you start bringing people in-house, but always subcontract and build around yourself this network of experts who can help you if you agree to that method.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Oh, absolutely. And like I said in the conversation with uh Kirsty, there's a group of us here in Brisbane and even further afield down to Sydney and Melbourne, where I know people are much better at certain things than I am, or might, you know, they're more into the PR space than we are. And when you grow that, when you have a really good network of people who are there to support each other and understand there is enough work to go around, enough success, then that helps grow your business as well because you start getting referrals. And when you are referred, people trust that referral a lot more than if they just Googled and found you as well. So uh yeah, I I I just have nothing but uh praise for Kirsty, obviously, and praise for you, Fadi. I mean, you've you've owned a business out of Italy for heaven's sake, and and now you're here in Cairo and we're talking, uh, and you're doing amazing things. So so much admiration.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

One of the most amazing things that I enjoy doing is this podcast between Cairo and Brisbane. Can you imagine? And we met in Manila again, so it's like you know, bringing this to our audience.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

This is something I love about this world we live in. There's something to be said for it. Well, Fadi, we are pretty close to the end of the series now, and uh next week will be our last episode of this 10-episode series. So we are gonna do a bit of a wrap-up next week and bring it all together and all the things we've learned over the last uh 10 episodes. So stay tuned for that, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah, I would highly confirm that. Stay tuned, that would be a great summary and the guide, the final guide for everyone. So, yes, stay tuned.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Thanks everyone.