a different kind of bank

We often think some events are impossible. They will never happen to us. However, that’s not always the case.  We’ll delve behind the scenes at York Food Bank to discover the importance of organisations like this. 

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Derm Tanner 0:00

Hello, welcome to another episode of Grey Matters, the brand new podcast series which aims to give you some ideas to fill all that time you now have on your hands. Whether you've just retired, you're looking to retire soon, or just wanting to do something more with your day, maybe, just maybe, we can help. We've talked to many organizations, clubs, and charities around Yorkshire and further afield because we wanted to find out what it's like to volunteer and learn new skills. Hopefully, over the coming episodes, Grey Matters will spark some interest for you. Because when it comes to retirement, there's so much more than just ensuring you have enough money to live on, and in this episode, we are discussing a subject that I suppose we wish we didn't have to have in many respects. It's food banks.

Roy Player 0:50

I didn't even realise that there was a need for so many around the country. And this was a real shock. It was a real eye-opener to me. And to meet the people who run that food bank. Well, basically the one guy who runs it who we'll be talking to in a minute. What a man. I mean, what an extraordinary chap to take on this project and to deal with it, and then obviously, Chris, you know, meeting meeting the volunteers, and again it comes down to that fact that they were passionate, but what was extraordinary from, from all walks of life, because I think we realised that anyone, anyone could find themselves in a position to to need a food bank.

Chris Wiltshire 1:26

Absolutely. I remember watching a documentary of people that were involved and had to take services of food banks in in Cornwall, they got some pretty tough, tough areas down there, and it really brought it home to me, and, you know, when I go into the supermarket now and we do get the opportunity to to contribute to these food banks, it doesn't take a lot to go a long way, and I was just blown away by the effort of some of these guys.

Adam 1:54

My name's Adam, and I'm the York Food Bank Manager.

Roy Player 1:58

Maybe you could describe to us first of all, please, what exactly is a food bank?

Adam 2:04

We're here to make sure that people in the city of York don't have to go without food at those points of crisis. So we operate as part of the "Trussell" network nationally. I'm trying to think how many food banks, around about 700 food banks in the network nationally, which is really quite ,quite a lot of different places that are needing to give out food provisions. I suppose though it's important to say that food's the tip of the iceberg of what we're doing. We're really about anti-poverty. So Trussell and food banks nationally are working to really combat poverty, and we want to address the root causes of why people find themselves at the point where they need emergency food. We're based in a network of churches, and how can we serve our communities and bring communities together? I think you know, we talk about poverty as being material, but I think poverty is also a you know social aspect to it as well, and missing that community and that kind of problem-solving group that you get from being part of a community as well.

Roy Player 3:03

I think you know there must be a tremendous feeling of there must be a stigma about you that taking those first steps into going into one of your churches where you distribute the food, must take an awful lot of courage on behalf of the people that need that food as well, and dealing with you having to deal with people and getting through that barrier.

Adam 3:22

Nobody wants to use a food bank, and it's it's a really difficult place to find yourself. The thing is that there are as many reasons as there are people that bring someone to that point, it's the unexpected expense, a relationship breakdown, a change in, in income or career. The biggest thing you can say to somebody that finds themselves at that point of need is that you really aren't alone. Unfortunately, we've seen double the number of people being referred into our services compared with prior to 2020, and that's because of the cost of living crisis. Food's what, 30% more expensive than it was two or three years ago? Energy's more expensive. It's just really, really tough times out there.

Roy Player 4:05

Okay, we you've set the groundwork brilliantly there. Thank you very much indeed, Adam, for explaining what you do. So maybe you can now tell us a little bit about where we're standing. It's a it's a bit Akewi, so it's a it's a depot of some sort here in in York, and we're surrounded by various and crates. so crates full of food. How do these get resourced then? How how do these come to you?

Adam 4:27

So what you see here is um a measure of the generosity of the general public around the city of York for the vast majority of it. People doing their shop in Tesco, in Asda, in Waitrose, Sainsbury's, and leaving food donations in the collection points near that you'll you'll probably have seen when you've done your own shopping in in store.

Roy Player 4:48

Okay, so those stores then will have. how does that work? So you buy, say, an extra couple of tins of soup or something and you can put those in the side.

Adam 4:56

Precisely. So yeah, I mean the story I keep getting is people do their shop and then they see the box at the end and think, I missed it on the way in, I wish I'd bought something. But actually I mean that is really where most of our food donations come from.

Roy Player 5:08

Even you can't get involved with volunteering, which we'll we'll go on to in a minute. There are ways that you can you can help very, very simply.

Adam 5:15

Very simply, and on a you know, even that small like ton of peaches or fruit or you know, a bag of rice or something like that, makes a huge difference to the food bank because we collect those items every week. They come here, they get sorted by a team of volunteers into types and dates and prepared to be there and at the point where somebody's at that point of need when they're referred to us.

Roy Player 5:39

Okay, so you've mentioned that wonderful word of volunteers, which is what we're trying to sort of encourage people to come and do. What sort of things can a volunteer do if they approach you and ask and say, How can how can I get involved as an individual?

Adam 5:54

Oh, it's wonderful when people come forward and offer time. I mean, it it's one of the nicest things you can do, and it makes such a difference as the community, and I know my colleagues right across the nation have the same situation in food banks everywhere. For us, I mean, we have lots of different areas where people can volunteer. I mean, obviously at different times, different teams are have different numbers of people in them, and we have to look at that. But I mean, there's people who go out on the van who drive the van around and collect the the items from the stores. Yeah, we got the van here.

Roy Player 6:22

Yeah, already York Food Bank, York Food Bank.

Adam 6:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I was gonna volunteer, that's where I would volunteer. I think they they they put the world to rights and every morning, I think, when they go out together. It's great, and then obviously in here we have teams that come in, so Tuesday, Thursday, and they'll you know donations come in and we sort them all out. We obviously don't want to waste anything, so all the dates have to get checked. We don't give out anything that's out of date, not because some things aren't edible if they're in date. We can still make those available through you know optional routes. But our standard package, the idea is that you receive from the food bank something that's of the same standards of what you could have purchased in store. So although it's non-perishable, it's tins and packages, it will be in date.

Roy Player 7:05

So, okay, so if I was a volunteer and coming in here, and what so that there's the van arrives, gets unloaded, unloaded onto the tables over there.

Adam 7:13

Yeah, in fact, you've even got some that have come in towards the end of this morning that are set aside for Thursday, and the volunteers will work through them, separate them out. So we put the tomatoes together, the soup together, the beans together, and obviously you can see as well around here like some of the items.

Roy Player 7:28

Well, let's walk down one of the aisles. So tins here. So someone who's volunteering will take that raw material that's coming in, and this looks very organized. So you've got tins one side, rice here, jams as well. So someone will actually go through all this, make sure that these crates and why why are the crates then organized in this way?

Adam 7:53

Well, we want to make sure we don't waste anything. So everything goes out in date order. So the longer dated things are further down the aisle, the shorter dated things are at the front, and it all goes out in order. So that's kind of how I mean at the moment with stocks being as unfortunately low as they have been this year, we've had a lot of pressure on things going out. A lot of the items in here are actually now quite long dated. In past years where, where we've not been quite as close to the wind, we might be looking at making sure that things that are dated to one month ahead are getting used up earlier. But yeah, it's really just a case of making sure we organise it. It's like a library in here. We have my colleague Maxine is fantastic at just, just getting everything in the right place.

Roy Player 8:34

It must be, yeah. So that's a brilliant way. So volunteers can help picking up the food, coming here, organising the food. So hang on a minute. So what happens, what happens next? Because obviously people don't come here to pick up food. And do you have a sort of system where you will put together a package for people so that they don't just have like six packets of chocolate biscuits or something, but they have a cross-section? I mean, I'm quite happy I have a six packet. Yeah, but it probably doesn't do you anything. What are you saying? But I mean that probably isn't particularly healthy. So do you do you have a sort of a system where you try to ensure that there is a a balanced diet of sorts?

Adam 9:16

Health's a really interesting point to make there, actually, because there's a common misconception that food banks just give out unhealthy food, you know, like biscuits and things. I was you know joking aside, you'll notice in here we've got tens of vegetables, tins of fruits, we've got pulses, we've got as well as your kind of teas and coffees and your capacity, carbohydrate, your breakfast cereal. So the actual package that's used across Trussell's network is nutritionally assessed and the quantities have been designed to make sure that all of the main essential kind of nutritional groups are included within the package. So the van team will bring the crates out. The centres at the churches order the stock each week, and then in the churches we then assemble packages for clients as they come in from these materials. So we have set packing lists that are put together in a certain number of different tins of different items. So you get your baked beans, you get your soup, you get your tomatoes, you'll get your fruit, you'll get your veg, you'll get some meat and fish, um, and all of those will kind of come together. So those all get packed, and of course, you don't just give everybody the same exactly the same package. If you're a family of five, you're obviously going to get a lot more than if you come as a couple or an individual.

Roy Player 10:25

Volunteers starting to do this without any real knowledge or experience of working with food banks, are they given assistance as to how to put together a food package?

Adam 10:37

Yeah, yeah. I mean so it in general I'd say packing is one of the things we tend to do more. It tends to be more experienced volunteers who've been around and seen how it works a bit more, who get who get to pack all they'll you know, we do a kind of coupling up with with people who have experience. You know, there are there are little tricks of the trade that you need to kind of take account for. For example, you know, if you're putting a package together and you're giving curry, you might want to pair that with rice. If you're giving out you know meatballs, you want to put pasta in. You know, so you it's kind of common sense stuff, but the stuff that you know if you sort of forget about it could easily lead to someone getting a package that's got a random assortment of bits that don't really go together, and you know, we obviously try to do that in a way that that really does uh work for somebody. It's not very dignifying to walk away with a mishmash of different food items.

Roy Player 11:25

What I would say as well, it must be one of the most important roles that I, I would imagine a volunteer a volunteer would be able to do is it, it must be communicating as well. That's that's something that if someone does come in and we talked we touched upon this a little bit earlier on, but I, I imagine it's it's not just sitting there and sort of someone walks in and you just shove a hissing back on the thing. So that's not a good thing. I would imagine there's quite a lot of because people must come in and feel, feel quite a need to talk about the situation.

Adam 11:55

Because that happens in a lot, so I mean the big word is hospitality. You know, when somebody comes into one of our sessions, we want them to feel welcome, they want them to feel like they're they're they're in a place where they can feel comfortable, it's an uncomfortable thing to do in itself, so we want to make that as easy as it can, and the other thing is that one of the reasons we we are birthed out of the churches in York and why we work so closely with churches is that these are active worshiping communities who see it as an expression of their faith in Christ, that they want to um you know welcome people and provide that to be crucial, thoughtful person. Exactly, and and it's to give that person that dignity um to serve them in the way that that's meeting that particular need. So that kind of goes right into the DNA of how somebody's looked after. I mean obviously we have to be mindful that people come from all different perspectives. You know, we're not we you know we're respectful of who people are, we have clients of all faiths and none who come into the food bank, and we have volunteers of all faiths and none who serve within the food bank.

Roy Player 12:53

We're all human beings, and we have that need it doesn't it doesn't matter what religion. No, you will perhaps empty an unfortunate position where you will need the assistance of a food bank. But what you would surely want is someone who, like yourself, Adam, has got a smile on their face and a welcome and can make people feel that at ease. And that must be a really important role for a volunteer. So do, do how, how do people register with you as a volunteer in that capacity? Do you do you chat to people and find out what they would be most comfortable in doing?

Adam 13:22

It's a very human process. I mean, if somebody comes in and says, I want to volunteer at the food bank, I usually start off by saying, Let's have a cup of coffee, let's let's have a chat, talk about what you're interested in. For some people, the thing that you desperately want to do is to look and be there and help somebody in person, and that's something that we try to facilitate where we can, and we have different openings across the food bank to help people do that. Again, you know, we wouldn't expect someone to kind of come in and just be set set to to to do something that they haven't been prepared for. But we obviously have people who have been doing this for a number of years and know what they're doing and are great at putting people at ease. So, you know, it's always someone who can take somebody underway under their wing and kind of help them move forward.

Roy Player 14:04

So there may well be some people who volunteer, and we're talking about the across the whole country here, aren't we, Adam? I mean with, with this with the group. There may be some people who are a bit more reticent about meeting people and a bit shy themselves. Are there other ways that people can get involved if they with without are there office-based things or social media things that people can help out on?

Adam 14:25

Absolutely, all of those things. So within our office we have a couple of lovely, lovely people who come in and help us with administration, answering the phone, answering emails, you know, like covering some of those things. Social media, again, like if you're a student who's like a whiz at social media, so many food banks don't have people who are really au fait with that. So having somebody that's willing to come and give you time to help run a campaign or you know, just kind of keep those lists updated of items that they're appealing for, is really really helpful, and people who are familiar with how that sort of social media communication and language works as well is is really really important. But then, I mean, as well, things like places around here, like the warehouse van teams, logistics stuff, can be really practical ways of helping that are actually very sociable but don't really put you on the spot. It's quite a nice thing to do.

Roy Player 15:20

What do you think the volunteer gets out of coming in here? What would Sue sort of say to the people that were thinking about coming? What sort of feeling do they get? Because I would imagine there's quite a sense of reward.

Adam 15:31

I think that's true, and I could say as somebody who works here that if I had the time to volunteer, I think I would choose to volunteer as well. Because I would say that a project like a food bank attracts people who care about others, who share common values about wanting to do the right thing, not wanting to see people suffering, not wanting to be see people struggling with hunger and hardship, and who are just really collaborative, and I think that just it creates a community in its own right, and actually, sometimes I think people I've heard people say, I didn't actually, I felt I should do this, but I didn't expect to like it, was the expression I had from one volunteer, and I completely get it as well. I get it. But actually that is the feedback that a lot of the a lot of the time I mean I don't want to speak for everybody, hopefully everyone's gonna say this, but I think most people who volunteer with the food bank really do find it rewarding making that difference, and you know, it's not such an arduous sort of commitment or set of tasks, so you know it's not you're not sort of pulling eight-hour days or something like this. You know, you can come in and give like two or three hours of your time, and you can still have a really powerful impact.

David 16:48

Hello, I'm David, I volunteer for York Food Bank.

Derm Tanner 16:52

So, David, how did you get involved here?

David 16:55

Well, for 20 years I was self-employed, I used to run my own business. Then when I retired about 18 months ago, I found it very difficult to close the door and lock it and walk away. The only way I can describe it, it was a bereavement, which sounds strange probably to people who are looking forward to retirement. But I think having put heart, soul, and body into my business to actually the stop was quite hard for me. So the food bank has, has helped me have a purpose some of the days of the week to get up and actually come and help with driving the van and also help with the food.

Derm Tanner 17:34

I mean, people say when they stop work it's difficult, but when you stop work and it has been your business and you've been the person that's run it and it's been your baby, your idea, you've seen it right through, and then to give that up that must be doubly hard.

David 17:49

It is very hard because I mean when you're self-employed, sometimes you start early and work late, but then when that disappears, it leaves quite a void. So you do need something to, to replace that with. Otherwise, you if you're not careful, you can get depressed and just wonder what life's all about, really.

Derm Tanner 18:07

So, how did the first few weeks and months affect you?

David 18:11

Initially, I think you have a sort of um a good time, but then as the days and months get go on, then it's uh it starts to get harder, really, which is why you you need to do other things to I'm also involved in a med shed in Easingwold. That was opened by a chap called Mike, and he runs that every Monday morning, so sometimes I go there as well, which, which is another sort of avenue.

Derm Tanner 18:34

Tell me about how you started here.

David 18:36

I started here actually just in the warehouse. I saw that there was opportunity to sort the food because obviously it has to just be sorted into date order, and then I think I was promoted to the van to drive the van. So , and when Les and I, the chap who's on with me today, were saying that in the van you you've got time to talk to each other. You're sitting there for sort of well, maybe a few hours, and so you can actually share heart to heart sort of health issues or you know, whatever, really, you know. So it's a good time to be able to share with each other.

Derm Tanner 19:06

So when you're in the van, are you picking up or dropping off or a bit of both?

David 19:11

A bit of both, actually. For example, we've been into town today to pick some food up from one of the hotels there, and then we go to one of the supermarkets, pick up at the supermarket from there, the food from the supermarket and bring that back.

Derm Tanner 19:27

Do you find people are uh are are more you know getting involved, they realise there's a need for this, and so so the companies and the businesses are saying, yeah, okay, fine, absolutely, we've got the surplus food, come and get it.

David 19:37

Yes, they're very generous as a whole, you know, and I think people have a soft heart for the food bank really. You know, they say it is a neat sort of a thing that's addressing people's needs, and so that's yeah, they're very they're very helpful normally.

Derm Tanner 19:54

It's one of these charities you wish you didn't have to have, isn't it, in some respects?

David 19:58

Well I think Adam's philosophy is that we're trying to do ourselves out of a out of business, you know, to make people self-sufficient so that they don't need sort of food like this, but there's a long way off. I think well, we're working towards it, but I think that that's the objective.

Derm Tanner 20:14

So is this helping fill the void for you?

David 20:16

It is, yes, yeah, very much so. Yeah, yeah, it does. I think it's it's having a purpose, really, you know, to actually help other people as well, so that you're not think just sitting in the chair thinking, oh oh dear, what what am I to do going to do today sort of thing, you know.

Derm Tanner 20:31

And how are you not just be the boss? Because I mean you're used to being the boss and having and making all the decisions.

David 20:36

Yeah, I'm quite happy to not to be the boss, yeah. Very much so. Yeah, take the pressure off, really.

Les 20:42

Hello, I'm Les. I'm volunteering today at the York Food Bank. I also volunteer at three other charities, which are York Wheels, York Neighbours, and York Unlocked.

Derm Tanner 20:53

You're a busy man, Les. Let's talk about the food bank here because we're inside the big warehouse and we are surrounded by crates of food. I've got baked beans, I've got milky bars, I've got what have I got here? Look, layered peanut pretzels, malteser. Oh, love a Malteser. I've got soup here, I've got Tesco's vegetables, soup. I've got cream and mushroom, I've got all sorts of stuff here. I've got oh look at this sticky toffee pudding over there. So you've got so much food.

Les 21:22

We pick up at Betty's on a Tuesday and a Thursday.

Derm Tanner 21:28

So tell me a bit about how you got involved here and what you do with.

Les 21:33

I got involved here because the wife got sick of me being in the house doing nothing, and she said, get yourself out and do something. So I ended up volunteering at four places, which was a quite a lot, really. Anyway, at the food bank, I go out in the van, we go to Betty's and Tesco's Askham Bar and we collect food, we bring it back, unload it, and then we load up with food and take it to four places. That distribute food to people that are in need of it.

Derm Tanner 22:03

And how long have you been volunteering for the food bank?

Les 22:06

I've been here for nine months now.

Derm Tanner 22:08

And how much have you seen the growth and the need for this in over those nine months?

Les 22:15

It needs to grow more, but it's it's doing quite well. We have peaks and troughs. Harvest festival time, we get good supplies in. Christmas we get good supplies in, but there's always a need for more food to be donated by people that kindly give it, but it needs a lot more.

Derm Tanner 22:34

So as we're speaking now, this is the end of October coming up to sort of Halloween and the Christmas period. It looks very full here, but presumably it gets even fuller, does it?

Les 22:44

Yeah, it's a Christmas that can be another two or three feet higher all around.

Derm Tanner 22:49

Wow, because at the moment just about waist level, really but they can go way above your head.

Les 22:57

Yes, yeah.

Derm Tanner 23:01

So for you, Les, when you stopped working, how was that? Was it was it a sort of what am I gonna do sort of thing?

Les 23:06

It it was a bit like that, yeah. But I used to keep busy doing exercise, but as I've got older that's got harder. Yeah, sure, and as a result of becoming a volunteer, I'm now ended up being a trustee and doing the accounts for one of the charities as a volunteer, so that's keeping me very busy.

Derm Tanner 23:27

Did you feel a bit of trepidation on that, or did you think that that's what I need? I need. I needed it, yes. Yeah, and it it's difficult, but I needed to do something to keep my brain ticking over, and to keep fit. This this keeps me fit because as you can see, you're lifting these, which weigh about 20 kilograms. Yeah. You try lifting that. Yeah, I mean, I don't need to. I'll take your word for it. I'll definitely take your word for it. I mean, that as we speak again, I mean there's a truck that's that that's arrived, there's a big transit that's arrived, and they're loading food into the people turn up and with stuff, yeah. They're just so it's constant during the daytime.

Les 24:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Derm Tanner 24:06

I guess as it gets up to Christmas and the busy time. They need more help. They need more help, don't they?

Les 24:11

Well, today on the van there's only two of us, and ideally we need three.

Derm Tanner 24:15

So you need volunteers?

Les 24:16

Yes, definitely. Yeah.

Derm Tanner 24:18

So how do they get in touch? How do how do they you know how do you get in touch?

Les 24:21

You just I, I just went online and looked for charities in York, and that's then rang up and came in, filled in a few forums. Oh, you need DBS checks, yeah, and then just just started, so it's very simple.

Derm Tanner 24:37

So, what your message to people who might be listening thinking, oh I don't know, but you know, it sounds interesting. What would you say to them?

Les 24:45

Just get online, if assuming you're online, look up charities, see one that you think might suit you, and get out and do it.

Judith 24:53

Hi, I'm Judith, and I volunteer at York Food Bank.

Derm Tanner 24:56

It's a busy day today, Judith, is it?

Judith 24:58

It definitely is. There's been the Harvest Festival donations from local school coming, so we are kept busy.

Derm Tanner 25:10

And it's it's quite nippy in here, isn't it?

Judith 25:13

It is, I've got lots of layers on. I think I've got about four or five layers on and gloves and warm enough.

Derm Tanner 25:20

You know, I thought it would be cold, which is why I brought one of my coats with me. So I don't want to be an amateur at these things. How long have you been volunteering here?

Judith 25:27

I think I'm coming up to the fourth winter.

Derm Tanner 25:32

Wow.

Judith 25:32

Yeah. Okay, so it's really good.

Derm Tanner 25:35

What sort of a change have you seen over the four years or so that you've been here in terms of the amount of the need?

Judith 25:42

I think the quantity that we are now storing in the warehouse is considerably less than it used to be. You know, we would have crates stacked high, and because I am small, I would easily be lost down the aisles, people couldn't see me. So the fact that aisles of crates further into the warehouse are only two or three deep shows that there's either less coming in or more demand or both.

Derm Tanner 26:16

I guess it's probably more demand, isn't it? Yeah, I mean I was saying to to Les and to David in in many respects this this is a charity you wish you didn't have to have, isn't it?

Judith 26:26

Absolutely, and I think the fact that there are professional people on full-time income who are needing to access it is really sad. Very sad indeed.

Derm Tanner 26:38

How did you get involved? What what made you come out of it?

Judith 26:42

My children had grown up and they were they were independent. I had retired probably about five years before, and I felt that I wanted to do different things with my time to give me a purpose in life, and so not only do I do this but I do other volunteering roles. So my week is structured, which I really like, and the fact that I'm doing something to help others in a less fortunate position than myself, you know, is a good thing.

Derm Tanner 27:19

It's really interesting. I talk to a lot of volunteers over the year, and there's one sort of trend that comes through, which is once you start volunteering, you want to volunteer at more places because sometimes it's only once day one day a week, and you kind of get the bug for volunteering.

Judith 27:33

Yeah, no, it's good, and you're with often with working with like-minded people, so they all want to contribute, they want to have a purpose in life, you know, sort of fill their days up rather than just being sat at home, watching television, doing housework, whatever. I would rather be out and about doing things whilst I can and just giving something of my time for free.

Derm Tanner 28:00

But how are you treated here? I mean, what what would you say to people who are thinking, you know what, Judith has given me an idea, maybe I can put my hand up and help.

Judith 28:08

Give it a try. Just give it a try, and you will be made to feel very welcome. You certainly get the steps in, in the time that you are putting, you know, putting things away in the crates, and you are appreciated.

Derm Tanner 28:25

It was appropriate, I think, that it was a a rainy, cold, bleak day in early autumn that we were at the the York Food Bank, and I know there are food banks right around the country, but it seemed to to match the occasion uh for for what is a very bleak subject, Chris, isn't it?

Chris Wiltshire 28:41

Absolutely. And I'm just thinking, you know, of all the things I feel privileged to have had the life that I have, what better way to give it a little bit back when I've got a bit more time in retirement.

Roy Player 28:53

I think also just to just to find you know, hint on this, and and although yes, it is big, but there was an amazing positive attitude with those people. I mean, you know, the food was we we saw the food being delivered from people that were donating, the the some of the companies around, the supermarkets that are around, and Chris, you've done yourself as well at the end, you know, go to the outside of a supermarket or just in in the door before you go out. There's a place where you can donate food, and that was the thing. Although they wished the place didn't exist, the fact that it does, but there was an extraordinary positive attitude.

Derm Tanner 29:29

You've been listening to the Grey Matters podcast, produced by Roy Player, Chris Wiltshire, and Derm Tanner.