What If Your Best Work Starts After Work, It Is Never Too Late To Learn An Instrument Or Pick Up A Pencil

You can have a lifetime of work behind you and still feel like a beginner again, especially when you finally have time to face the hobbies you parked years ago. We lean into that moment, the mix of excitement and doubt, and ask a simple question: how do you start making art or music when you’re convinced you’re “not that person”? 

We sit down with David and Joe Dunwell to talk honestly about learning music as an adult, the fear of failure, and why it helps to decide what you want music for. Maybe it’s mastering scales and songwriting craft, or maybe it’s learning a handful of songs to play at home for friends. We also get practical about confidence building through open mic nights, showing up before you perform, and using YouTube and local beginner lessons to get the first tools in your hands. 

Then we head to the North York Moors to meet artist Sue Slack, whose work is shaped by landscape, colour, and the changing light. She shares down-to-earth ways to begin drawing again, focusing on small subjects, making a little time each day, and experimenting without demanding perfection. We also talk about why joining an art group can be a powerful antidote to isolation in retirement, giving you both motivation and like-minded company. 

If you’re searching for retirement hobbies, creative retirement ideas, beginner guitar advice, open mic confidence, or beginner drawing and painting tips, this is a warm push towards action. Subscribe, share with someone who needs a nudge, and leave us a review, what creative thing will you try this week?

If you would like a go at Painting you contact Sue on

http://www.sueslack.co.uk/

Too find out more info about The Dunwells follow the link below

https://www.thedunwells.com/

Transcript

Why Creative Hobbies Matter

Derm Tanner 0:01

Hello, welcome to another episode of Grey Matters More, The Antidote to the Retirement Clues. Certainly got rather more time on your hands than you're used to. Not sure how you're going to fill those days effectively. Perhaps you're missing some social interaction. Well, maybe this podcastDerm can help. We've spent months talking to charities, companies, and sports clubs who are all after volunteers. I'm Dan Tanner

Roy Player 0:24

and I'm Roy Player.

Derm Tanner 0:25

And it's the arts in this episode as we talk about music, painting, and drawing.

Roy Player 0:31

Yeah, we thought we'd do some courses because it's often a case of that when you're young, you do things and it's sort of maybe at school and stuff, and you don't sort of quite pick up on that thing about music and art, and you can't quite do it as well as you'd like, so you give up, and then when you're at work, Derm, you kind of get you just have to do so many different things, like and you don't have that time and a lot of this is actually to do with that that mind and being in the right state of mind, isn't it?

Derm Tanner 1:00

Absolutely. Because you you you it's not something you I mean, I like to sort of sketch a little bit, but it's not something you can do like that. You've got to be in the right frame of mind, as you say.

Roy Player 1:09

And I think that I mean, I, I, I live up on in close to the North York Moor. It's, it's a it's a stunning place, and I love it. I enjoy taking photographs, but I was really lucky enough. They have sort of open studios up there quite a lot. They probably do around the whole country. So and it sort of went along and met this amazing woman called Sue Slack, who is an outstanding artist, and she really is inspired by the landscape around her. So she worked doing that mainly at a lovely little studio in right on the North York Moors, it's actually near where I used to play cricket, place called Lockton, beautiful spot and so I, I joined her to do a couple of lessons, and I thought it would be really interesting to sort of find out about how you can get started, and so much of it though is to do with enthusiasm, I think and if you're enthused about the subject, but if the person that is teaching you is enthusiastic about what you're doing, and that really inspires. But I have to say, Dem, the other people that we met, I just did a little hint about what the other part of this was about.

Derm Tanner 2:13

Oh yeah.

Roy Player 2:16

Did you recognise that song?

Derm Tanner 2:17

Yeah, well, I recognised, it took me back.

Finding Time And The Right Mindset

Roy Player 2:21

So, yeah, so not only was I not particularly good at art, I was not particularly good at music either. So but I've always wanted to walk out on stage in front of a hundred thousand people and perform. But that's probably not going to happen. However, we thought we'd go and chat to some well, they've become mates, and they "The Dunwells". I was lucky enough to be directing a Look North programme when, when they came in and performed a couple of numbers about 10 years or so ago, and we've kind of remained friends and, and they perform around the country on a regular basis. But we thought we'd really go and ask them about what it was like if you were, like myself, an aspiring musician.

David Dunwell 3:05

Hello, my name is David Dunwell. I am a guitarist, songwriter, and member of the band The Dunwells, and we are here in our very own studio in Bramley, Mill Lane Studio.

Joe Dunwell 3:16

And I am Joe Dunwell, I'm David's brother, and I'm the the lead singer, songwriter, and producer of The Dunwells, and and yeah, sat in the same studio.

Roy Player 3:30

The whole idea of this is that you'd look, you know, you're looking at a man here who's retired, grey, going bald, you know, all these kind of things. Handsome mate.

Joe Dunwell 3:41

Thanks. Are you talking about Dave?

Roy Player 3:45

God, I I would die for that here, honestly. I mean, I'm so envious. I love music and I have no ability at playing an instrument at all.

David Dunwell 3:54

Have you checked that though?

Roy Player 3:57

Well, okay, that's a good that's a good response to this potential question, though, isn't it? About whether actually this is something that you're gonna say to me that maybe I could try. Tragically, yes. I mean, I have the story of when I had a recorder and my mother put it on the fire because it was I was playing it so badly, I was trying to play jingle bells, and you know, I was only about ten years old at the time. But I, I, I therefore can blame my mother for the for not having a musical career. Because we have another four recorders. I just think how many lives I've saved by not performing. But but I kind of I would love to do what you guys do. But there are a lot of people out there who have quite a lot of talent, it's hidden talent, and we've been working, and you work, and you go to you know, you have a job and things and all this, and you never have the time to really fulfil that potential dream of picking up that guitar, sitting behind a piano, going and sitting behind a piano in a pub somewhere and just suddenly bashing out a tune. What a fantastic thing to do. Or even now at King's Cross Station or something, you know, you just get behind the piano. What advice would you give to people who are too terrified of the fear of failure? How would you say to them, come on, get up there and start doing this? Can you guys help?

Joe Dunwell 5:16

The they've already won at life, haven't it? You know, they've got to a point you've got to a certain point in your life where you're you're a you've you've financially stable enough and and you've gone you've done all the family thing and now and now you're you're doing something for yourself and I think that, that, that just do it, just because you've got the opportunity to be able to do it. Like obviously I've done music all my life. I know that when I retire I'm gonna go get golf lessons because that's my that's my passion, do you know what I mean? and I will put my all into golf but or or maybe not football, because I keep injuring myself. Those knees. But do you know what I mean? It's like so I feel like if if you've got a love or a passion to want to do it, just just turn up to the open minds and

Roy Player 6:02

because you've got nothing to prove.

Joe Dunwell 6:03

Yeah.

Roy Player 6:03

Yes, so so okay, so you you but but you say that, but how how do you take that first step, Dave?

The Dunwells On Starting Music

David Dunwell 6:10

I would question what you want to do it for and then start from there. Are you do you want to do you have an am a dream when you close your eyes, do you have an ambition that you want to s you know, get on that piano at King's Cross station, you know, one day and just rock out your favourite song? or do you want to study music in a way that's more about really learning the s the scales and the craft and what you know? because if you answer that question you'll you can approach it very differently, and then and then w I would then definitely just go with the idea that first of all, it is never too late to start. It's only music, and I mean that with the most respect to music, it's only just music, and it it's supposed to be enjoyed by yourself as a player and also as a listener. So if you think of it like if I could learn a handful of songs and play them to my friends and family at an event, and that would make and then that would be just so fun, and and people would be proud and I would be excited, and then you can now start the process and you will find that making music is extremely easy.

Joe Dunwell 7:24

It's not necessarily even just the playing side of things, but there's we we we know and, and work with people that have worked in ex-bankers or or ex-marketing they've they've built their own marketing company or they've the a bunch of things for their work and now they do no longer do that. But they can take those skills with that passion of music into music and and like guide younger people and go, do you know if you actually sort out your business side of things, musician, then I can help you there and and then they they'll they've got this like common thing, you know, they're both into the music and and then learning the business side of things.

Roy Player 8:03

So yeah, I mean because obviously the part of this is that it it is a business, but I'm gonna just take it back a little bit from that for that first person who's like taking those first tentative steps into and I think what you said David was was brilliant about the fact that actually your ambition would be perhaps to even if it's just to play sit on the sofa and just play to a handful of friends, which would be that would be some achievement. It would be huge. You don't mention, Joe, about open mics, no so just give us a little bit more information about because that's how you started, wasn't it? So we were talking talk about open mic and how people could pluck up courage to go and do that.

Joe Dunwell 8:37

An open mic night is is a thing that happens locally around everywhere. You can find find them online and it's just someone will host it and you can just go there and watch the musicians play, or you can go and and take your guitar or take your recorder if you've get if you get a new one.

Roy Player 9:00

It's become very emotional for me though, actually.

David Dunwell 9:02

But there's quite a queue, there's quite a queue of of recorder players all queuing up to, to do, to do, to do, to do jingle bells.

Roy Player 9:10

I mean that's just getting it. That's right, you know, that's what it was.

David Dunwell 9:13

Around December you are you're hot property. Around December.

Joe Dunwell 9:19

So yeah, yeah, and you just you just kind of go there and you you get yourself a drink, and and then you you you might go we've seen when we were hosting it, we would see the same same guy come, he'd bring his guitar, and I when I'm hosting it, I'd see that he has a guitar, so I would go over to him say, Would you would you like to play a song tonight? and he goes, Oh no, I'm okay tonight, and then he'd have his drink, but he'd he'd be surrounded by music and he'd see other people getting up, and then the next week he'd still bring his guitar and he'd put, I do want to play a song tonight, and lo and behold, three, four, five weeks later, he's going, I've actually learnt a song now and I'm ready to perform and I feel like because he it's the act, what Dave said, if you keep turning up, you know, if you keep going to the hairdressers, you're gonna get your hair cut at some point, you know.

Fear Of Failure And First Steps

Roy Player 10:04

Excuse me. I only dream of going into the hairdressers these days. Actualy that's fantastic, you mentioned if you wanted to though about maybe taking lessons. and again, is how, how would that start if you've got very limited how how would people go about taking taking lessons or joining a group of people to take lessons, perhaps?

David Dunwell 10:30

I think there's a couple of options. First one would be I would go to online, I'd go to YouTube, and if you just type in the song that you want to learn into YouTube and guitar lesson, there will be someone that'll have posted a video that you will be able to go and they will talk you through that song, and nine times out of ten, it's gonna be perfect, it's gonna be that. But you might need the human interaction to actually let it think in. So there are same again, if you go online, type in your local area and look for beginners guitar tuition, there will be a plethora of guitar lessons that normally around about anywhere between 15 to 50 pounds an hour, and you would probably book ten sessions, and ten sessions would give you the tools that you need to be able to go back and have something to keep studying. The thing about guitar is it never actually ends. To say there's only six strings and you know twelve notes, and it you, you will always find something new. There'll be there's a there's a new way to play the chord, or there's a new way to make the guitar. So it never really ends, but you just have this basic set of tools, and I do believe that you can from a as I said, from a performance point of view, going out and playing your pop song in front of your friends or at the open might night, there is a select few tools which I think you can learn very quickly and spend an entire lifetime trying to master of.

Roy Player 12:00

You were telling us a little bit earlier on about actually going into classes and going to schools, or 'cause often that's a very that's a crucial period in people's lives, isn't it, about whether they get involved with anything really. What experience have you had about going into schools then?

Joe Dunwell 12:15

Do you just sort of So we so we do fifteen schools a year and and and we the the whole idea behind it is is we we are the Dunwells, we are songwriters and we followed our dreams and passions. And then we stand in front of them and we write a song in the room in an hour and get them to sing it and perform it back. Not with the look of you become musicians, it's if you have a passion to be an artist or a drawer or a runner or a painter, decorator, whatever your passion is, it's like you can follow it because look at us, and we've been on stages in front of 30 to 35,000 people, and we've we've had highs and lows in our career that that any career has.

Speaker 1 13:00

So as I wake you up into this frenzy, I'm gonna do so by asking you some very simple questions which you just simply need to say yes to with a lot of energy and a lot of enthusiasm. So, are you ready? Are you ready to say the best number in the region?

Roy Player 13:54

Just playing the pum. I can't tell you. But these guys are absolutely fantastic. So and you could be performing in front of four hundred and fifty people.

Introduction of Sue Slack and Painting.

Sue Slack 14:34

Most of my painting is inspired by the moors that surround me. I walk and I run and I bike, and that in turn inspires me to, to do the paintings that I do.

Roy Player 14:48

Oh, this is an extraordinary location, Sue. I mean, have you come up here deliberately for the inspiration for your work, or is this just somewhere where you happen to have arrived at and this is a moment in time for you as an artist?

Sue Slack 15:02

No, we moved here because we wanted to buy somewhere. We didn't even know that Locton existed. We lived in Yes Valley, which is very beautiful, and both my partner and I enjoy the outdoor life, and this became available and it was just about affordable. So we moved here, but bearing in mind that there was a derelict barn at the back, thinking that that could potentially become a studio, which it has.

Roy Player 15:32

And that's fantastic. The studio is absolutely beautiful, and we're gonna go in there a little bit later on to have a look at some of your work and talk about how you actually create that work as well. But sitting out here, it's it, it must be a fantastic, fantastic inspiration though, sitting out here.

Sue Slack 15:49

It is, and especially on a glorious daylight today.

Roy Player 15:52

Absolutely. I mean the moors are beautiful and the green we listen to the birds and, and everything. So it h as it provides some sort of inspiration, what does that what does that mean for your work? What sort of work do you do?

Sue Slack 16:06

I do, do still lives and you know I have done and I do seascape, but I just love the shape of the land and then the colours, and if I've been on a fell run, I sometimes notice it and it also depends on the light as well. The place can look quite flat, but then on a different day it can look completely different. In fact, I'm doing a long run in July from Beverly to Norton, Malton, and I'm doing rekkie for the race because it's 47 miles because I've never run that far before. I'll certainly be walking some of it. But just coming out of Millington I was it was just amazing. The the valleys and the way you know, it was just the lines were just cutting in all the time, and so I made a note that this time next year I'm gonna go back there to to do sketching because the gorse, you know, everything was just stunning at that particular you know, this particular time of year. I'm sure it's stunning other times, but just caught my eye, it was amazing. So it's like remembering where these places are so that I can go back and sketch.

Roy Player 17:18

You've become a professional artist and we're trying to encourage people who maybe have some skill or like myself when I came to you had been basically humbled by a school teacher some 50 years ago and never really got over that. Actually it was probably even sixty years ago now, but it was that thing of that that had stuck with me and thought, well I can't become an artist. No way can I do any drawing. But how was it for you? How did you discover that you could draw and you could be an artist?

Sue Slack 17:53

I think I always enjoyed art at school, but it was a case of a girl's grammar school and you couldn't when you had to decide you couldn't do art and sciences, and it's the old thing of like, well, yes, you can get a job in the sciences, keep your art as a hobby, but then I couldn't do art O level, so I haven't even got a GCSE in art. But so I did my chemistry and biology and and all that, and and I ended up doing a human biology degree, but I always kept a sketchbook with me, and when I was working in London, I went to art evening classes. I make sure if I go into schools nowadays that I will say, look, there are plenty of jobs in art who designed your mum and dad's car, who designed your t-shirt, who you know, all the things that are applied art. So, you know, I do think it's important that art is valued, and I'm hoping that creativity gets put back in its right place in education. There are two sides to your brain, and there's a wonderful book by Betty Edwards, which is great to get people started because there's a workbook which gives you exercises and it and it tells you it's a theory of like two sides of the brain are different, and you've got the creative side and you've got the more literal side, and the literal side is the one that wants everything to be exactly right, and it limits your creative side. So by doing some of the exercises that are in this book and just by going out there and drawing, if you just get on and do it, you will become more creative. Sometimes if I've had quite a long time without painting or drawing and I'm and I'm getting frustrated because I haven't done any painting or drawing for a long time, the minute I pick up the paintbrush and start, even if I'm not necessarily sure what I'm going to do that day, I just feel the stress just go down. Just I I just feel relief.

Roy Player 20:03

A fever of failure was certainly something I had. Yeah you know, the thought of picking up all right, picking up a piece of paper and a pencil or a or crayon or paint or whatever it happened to be, the thought was Yeah, but when I start, I'm gonna look at it myself and go, this is terrible, and I think something that you said first of all there, which was which was really useful to hear, was that thing of actually going somewhere, and we say it doesn't have to be the countryside, it can be city, doesn't matter where you are, but actually just sitting there and observing for a while.

Sue Slack 20:35

Definitely, yeah.

Roy Player 20:37

Okay. So if you're observing for a while, how do you pluck up the courage then to pick up that piece of paper with a pencil and start drawing and think I am doing this for me?

Sue Slack 20:53

Yeah.

Roy Player 20:54

Is that crucial at first that you just want to do it?

Sue Slack 20:55

Oh yeah, you're doing you're doing it for you. I mean, and also maybe not looking at the whole, whole view at once. Maybe I've done a a drawing where I've just concentrated on a tree, and I've drawn that tree and then I've expanded out from that and that's quite an a nice way of getting into something rather than the whole landscape can be like, oh, I don't know which bit I'm gonna do, and it's overwhelming. So just starting off small. I mean, even drawing the coffee cup on the table. Anything like that gets you going and really to do something small every day, some sort of drawing, them even if it's a five-minute drawing every day. I don't do this, I should. I should take my own advice. But you know, just starting off small and just having a little sketchbook. I mean, there's loads online nowadays, there's loads of like sketch a day sort of prompts.

Roy Player 21:52

I mean YouTube, yes, is is fantastic. But if you want that human contact because one of the other things as well that we we we talked about, but also I've I found by going to the gym and things it's it's and finding like-minded people which was really helped and there was no two ways about it the mental side of being retired the mental side of of sitting at home perhaps and what just watching YouTube or not interacting with other people and not interacting with other like-minded people can be quite detrimental towards your well-being so certainly coming out and sharing experiences with people is a is a huge thing.

Sue Slack 22:30

I think things like joining your local art group because it's going to be a whole range of experience and expertise but like Pickering art group and it's that and I know that for example Pickering they have evenings where they just go and draw a subject or they have they have talks from local artists. I mean I've run a couple of workshops with them and yeah that it's it's one of those things about you think oh I'm not good enough to go but in fact you are and there are enough if you've got enthusiasm and you want to do it and then you you will meet like minded people and that's a great way forward

Sue Slack On Landscape Inspiration

Roy Player 23:21

We come into your beautiful studio which is that converted barn and it looks absolutely stunning and your artwork is around here and we've got some Seascapes which you you you were telling me about earlier on which you're doing for an exhibition later this this year. But I think this was one of the things that really inspired me when I first came to you was kind of initially the abstract type art that you do. So when I came to you and said let's do abstract and I had no idea about what to do I can't remember really how you went through that with me. Again it was that thing of I think the crucial thing was you kept saying just try it but then you were giving me the guidance.

Sue Slack 23:56

Yes. Well making marks on paper is in in in different ways is a good is a good way in you know just experimenting with the materials with paint with pencil mixing them up scratching in you know that's what we did wasn't it just trying lots of different sort of small pieces of paper with different techniques on and just not be bothered about making a picture it's really important that because everybody wants to make a picture whereas you've got to know what your materials are doing and to learn about about that I'm still learning.

Roy Player 24:30

I mean what you're indicating to me though is that you can actually draw paint with with with virtually anything. You just need to just try and you experiment.

Sue Slack 24:37

Yes yes and I've concluded at the moment I mean I don't know where my work's going at the moment but I'm really loving just sketching outside I find that my paintings have a vibrancy from having actually been there and and sketched outside like these seascapes here. I've slightly changed my palette at the moment I used to be more sort of primary colours I've always loved cadmium yellow dark hue which is a gorgeous sort of egg yolky dark egg yolky colour so I'm maintaining that in my palette but I'm experimenting with more earthy colours at the minute and and I'm I'm really enjoying the effects.

Roy Player 25:16

That's great from again from encouraging people to you trying things you're experimenting. So it's the thing about getting people like myself to experiment as well with different things. And again do you look at things all and go when I experiment with something that always has to work that has to that looks oh unbelievable or do you look at sometimes and go well that one hasn't worked and there's that's not that's not a bad thing is it sometimes yeah no it's a learning experience yeah so yes I do have some things that I don't often throw things out.

Sue Slack 25:49

Usually I think I might be able if it's on a canvas you can paint over the top of it. But on paper you can crop if it's an area that you really like but there's a lots of it you don't like you can sometimes make a painting work by by cropping it. You can collage back into it you can block bits out with this with white paint and and paint back in it it's endless really what you can what you can do. It's just a case of trying and yeah there will be failures and there will be some that you think there's bits of that that I like and sometimes you can just spend well the hardest question that anybody asks me is how long does it take to do a painting because you can spend hours and hours and days and days on a painting or you can spend ten minutes and something happens that has made it work and it's it's hard to describe why it works but it makes a connection with somebody or with you know you're pleased with it.

Roy Player 26:54

It's quite nice to have a goal. It's quite nice to have an achievement sense of achievement which may be going on from but also having a realistic sense of achievement that I'm probably not going to have an exhibition of my work. So how what sort of layers of expectation do you give people?

Sue Slack 27:12

Is it something you go I've done this for me to put up in my front room I've done this for a family friend or do you want to do you try to encourage people to maybe take it a little bit further research well I mean all of that in a way I mean you can you know all of the things that you've just said if you do join a local art group they usually have an annual exhibition and you're usually encouraged to to pop something something in friends of mine you know they exhibited for the first time either with the Busy Brushes group or with Pickering Art Club and they've sold work so but really it's more if you're enjoying it just do it and then you know the good work will come out of that. I do have to say though please don't get hung up on perspective as many people do they want to be taught perspective it's very basic perspective lessons very basic but it happens so much like I want to learn about and basically just draw just just react to what you see.

Roy Player 28:15

Be a free spirit yes yes and do you work from photographs sometimes as well if you say for example if you are living in a city centre but you are you love landscapes and stuff.

Sketching Small And Daily Practice

Sue Slack 28:27

I never do a painting or somewhere that I don't know not never solely from a photograph. I've always been there to sketch take photographs but one trick which I think really helps is when you come back to do anything in the studio you turn your sketch upside down you turn your photographs upside down and you do your first drawing or painting the first laying it out the first composition you do it upside down because then it stops you from getting bogged down with detail because photographs have got lots of detail in them and you don't want that because you don't want it to be a copy of a photograph you want it to be your version of of the scene

Roy Player 29:12

Look so this has been absolutely fantastic thank you so much for inviting me here to chat to you about your artwork and also I hope that we've inspired a few people to do what I've done and and come and visit an artist and go to classes

Sue Slack 29:26

Yes

Roy Player 29:26

and do things

Sue Slack 29:27

I hope so too.

Summing up by Derm & Roy of this week’s podcast.

Derm Tanner 29:35

Sue Slack with some really good advice that certainly I think echoes with me because I can't draw unless I really feel I mean I can't draw really you could stop it there but unless I really feel inspired then I'm then I can doodle and I can kind of cartoon a bit.

Roy Player 29:54

And I think that's the thing as well what I, I found with what you were talking about there was that inspiration is that there's no point if if you're sat like we are in this office or something and you go I'm gonna draw that chair but I don't you know it doesn't really do anything for me. But if you're sat there looking out over the view of the moors and that inspires you then that's the place to go or take a photograph and then do the picture you know draw draw when you get back home. Do something that really kind of feels something for you I mean an amazing woman I really recommend checking out her work it's Sue Slack brilliant artist and you know really inspirational actually and helped me a great deal and I really enjoyed the the days I spent with her and and we'll continue to to go back to her as well.

Derm Tanner 30:40

And you talk about inspiration and Joe and David and Dunwell's I mean they're just phenomenal and lovely guys you've known them much longer than I have.

Roy Player 30:47

I have it's a privilege to say that they're friends. The music is extraordinary we saw them I mean we've seen them perform as just the two of them and they do an amazing set and they love playing to small groups of people and to you know large venues as well. When they play with the band we went to see them recently and they played with the whole band and everything and they played a set which was outstanding and you know I was really thinking Derm about getting up on stage with them.

Derm Tanner 31:16

Play us out, You've been listening to Grey Matters More produced and presented by Roy Player and Derm Tanner. Please don't forget to like follow or subscribe that way you'll never miss an episode