Ramble On...

Most of us notice a view, a good path surface, or a perfectly placed gate. We rarely notice the people who made that possible. We head to Colne in East Lancashire and climb into the heat with Ramblers countryside access volunteers to see the real craft of path maintenance up close.

Walking with Mark Chung, Mark Dimbleby and Colin Unwin, we get into the practical realities of maintaining public rights of way: cutting back overgrowth, rebuilding wobbly stiles, repairing a ditch crossing, and laying proper wooden steps where a muddy slope once pushed people away. We talk about the standards that keep structures safe, the planning that sits behind every job, and the logistics of carrying tools and heavy materials when the site is miles from easy access. We also explore how working with landowners and clear waymarking keeps walkers on the legal line, protects farmland, and makes routes easier to follow for everyone.

Then we shift to the inner landscape of retirement with psychological therapist Pauline Beaumont. We unpack why leaving work can trigger anxiety, why trying to fill every day can become another job, and how to find a healthier balance between meaningful activity and proper rest. If you are looking for purpose, community and better mental wellbeing, this conversation offers grounded ideas you can actually use.

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Transcript

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Season Two Shift To Path Care

Derm Tanner 0:02

Those that may have caught our season one podcast on the Ramblers with Stephen and Vicky will remember that it was mostly about organising walks and sorting and hoping to get new people to come and organise walks and get people out in the country walking about. We find ourselves in season two taking, once again with the Ramblers, but taking a different stance, don't we, Roy?

Roy Player 0:25

Well we did. I mean the thing was that last time we were able to do the chat with the Ramblers and basically put out the fact that we were we loved walking, but in fact we did the walk, well, the chat, didn't we? When sat on a bench.

Derm Tanner 0:38

Well we walked 50 yards.

Roy Player 0:39

50 yards. That's right. This time though, we've got Mark and Mark, and they have already dragged us up one of the biggest hills. Well, this side of Everest.

Derm Tanner 0:49

Yeah, probably. It feels as though we need oxygen very soon. We are we are talking about path maintenance, and with us we have the two marks, Mark Chung and Mark Dimbleby. Yes, I've remembered that. Let's come to you which is incredible about considering the height you've just walked up to.

Mark Chung 1:06

I'm impressed. I'm oxygen.

Derm Tanner 1:10

But it's a beautiful day. Yeah, as we speak, we're in July, it's coming to the end of July, and we're, we're in this sort of little mini heat wave again. We find ourselves in a little bit of shade, and we are about to climb what looks like some new work, which presumably Mark, you and your team have created. Tell us more.

Meet The Path Maintenance Team

Mark Chung 1:29

Yes,

Derm Tanner 1:29

where are we?

Mark Chung 1:30

Well, we're actually in Colne, which is in East Lancashire, and we're all part of the Burnley and Pendle Ramblers path maintenance team. We work under the auspices of Pendle Borough Council, under their countryside access officer called Tom, and we meet every Wednesday. There's a total of five of us. We all can't do every week, so we rotate or when we're available, when we're not on holiday. And essentially, what we do, we go out every Wednesday, we fix things, we repair things, we make things, all to trying to make the countryside more accessible, make it easier. So, for example, when you've walked along a path and you've come to a style and the style's been wobbly or broken, and you've reported it to your local highway authority, in Pendle on a Wednesday, we'll go out and we'll fix it. Myself, Mark, Colin, Adam, and Simon, and we have a couple of other folks as well that occasionally do it. That's Anthony and also Paula as well.

Derm Tanner 2:38

We thank you for all of that because because a lot of I'm sure a lot of work walkers take it completely for granted and they think, oh, this is nice, this is new, and and the sort of pathway fairies have sorted out overnight, and and there's no other thought about it.

Roy Player 2:53

Well that's the thing, isn't it? I mean, I take my dogs for lots of different walks, and you go along paths, Mark, and and it's that thing of going, well, this has always been like this, and this is great. I can walk along here in comfort, my dogs are happy, I'm happy. But if in this location where we are now, if we sort of took turn back the clock a little bit of time, what would we have seen here? What would this have been like for people to bring their dogs along, for example?

Building Steps That Beat The Mud

Mark Dimbleby 3:16

Well, it was obviously on either side of the steps, there it you it's quite a wooded and overgrown area, and it was really overgrown going back six-seven weeks ago when we came. So as you can see, we've, we've cut all the vegetation back. With the slope where the steps are, it isn't always sunny in Pendle, so we do get a lot of rain up here. So it was honestly like a mud, it was a slide. People couldn't get up it, so people avoided this path previously. So now that we've, we've put the wooden steps in, filled it, you know, filled it in with hardcore, etc., and stamped it all down, and certainly the path as well. You can see we've put hardcore on the path to to sort of make it walkable, certainly in, in all conditions rather than just in summer conditions. So, yeah, we've just opened this route back up so people can use it again.

Derm Tanner 4:06

And how long have you been helping? And how did you get involved? Why did you get involved?

Mark Dimbleby 4:10

I've been with the team for around about two and a half years, and the reason I got involved is because, well, I love being outside and I retired, and it gives you you go for a bit of a hazy period when you're at first retire, you know, your purpose, etc. And you need to get yourself into a little bit of a routine, and this suits me. My, my job previously was in regional management with on re in retail, where now being outside with a great team of people, he's smiling now that I've said that to him. His little head's gonna grow now. But no, with a great team of people, we have we have banter, but also you know, we we walk away every Wednesday because we as Mark said we've been every Wednesday, and you know, you achieve something you know you can be proud of, and people comment who use a path, you know, about the work that we do. You know, they're appreciative of it, so yeah, it feels good.

Roy Player 5:08

That must be a great sense of satisfaction actually to know that other people are really going to enjoy this. I'm gonna ask just one more question while we're here, if that's alright, Mark. Is that thing about these steps? Now, if I was trying to do that, let's just say that they would not have lasted very long, and they certainly wouldn't look like that. Do you have to have any particular skills as a volunteer wanting to come and join your team?

Mark Chung 5:31

Not particularly, no, it's just really enthusiasm, willingness to get stuck in, willingness to have a go at different things, like for example, I'm not a great DIYer. My wife calls it Mark's maintenance services whenever I try and do something in the garden, which is typically standing on a plant, or digging up a plant when it should be a weed. But I've learnt off Mark, off Colleen, Adam, and Simon, and also Tom, Countryside Access Officer, on how to do jobs like this, and a lot of it, to be frank, is common sense, you know, and some of it you do you pick up the skills you learn. And the good thing is it it also helps me in Mark's maintenance services at home now, because I actually do jobs at home that I wouldn't have done before because I didn't know how to do them.

Derm Tanner 6:25

Can I just ask you, just while we're on the steps, because I speak from bitter experience, as someone who put new steps in up our bank, and it all was going really well until about halfway around, halfway up, I realized that I had to make the steps much bigger, that the the actual step up much bigger, because I wasn't going to make it, I would be digging into the bank because I hadn't done my maths properly, and you've got to get the angles right, haven't you? So that is a bit of expertise. You someone has got to know something somewhere along the line.

Mark Chung 6:52

Yeah, it comes with experience, and one of our volunteers, Colin, he's brought a lot of experience in construction, and he's helped us, you know, along the way. And as I mentioned, we we learn, we pick things up. Like now we're very confident we can do jobs like this, really. Steps anywhere, you do have to dig into the bank, but there are some standards that we work to as well, which are, as you mentioned, like the height of the steps and also the widths of the steps as well. So we also work to within those standards.

Roy Player 7:23

But look, there's Colin over there, he's actually standing on his steps. Yeah, let's go and let's go. We better go and have a go and have a chat with Colin as well.

Skills You Learn On The Job

Derm Tanner 7:30

We have climbed a little bit further in the blistering heat in Lancashire on this July day. T o take in a little bit more work, and I'm delighted to say that Colin Unwin is with us. Now, tell us a little bit more. What do you what are you in charge of? What's your expertise here?

Colin Unwin 7:46

Well, I'm in charge of the working group when it goes out most of the sort of some of the time. And my job really is to make sure, firstly, everyone's safe on site, and then what we leave behind is suitable for acceptance onto the asset register by the highway authority. Sounds quite complicated, sounds like a basic form, yeah. There's no forms at all, but just basically that we adhere to the regulations that are out there. So there are conflicting bits of information, but you know, make sure that it's a good thing.

Roy Player 8:14

Is that to do with safety? Because I mean that must be an issue too.

Colin Unwin 8:16

Safety and liability and litigation and all those things, but basically, so we've got a good robust structure that is safe to use by anybody who gets to it.

Roy Player 8:25

Because I can say good because we've just come across here a sort of a, a bridge across a ditch. Now, the thing is again, very easy to take that for granted as a as a walker, an average walker. But I mean, if that wasn't there, that would cause that would completely ruin this walk, wouldn't it? So, how how on earth have you got that together to make sure that people can walk across here safely and enjoy the walk?

Colin Unwin 8:47

That was an existing structure that was already in, but the our recent repair was the fact that one side of the bank had completely collapsed just because of wear and tear, basically, and a lot of wet conditions. So we've jacked that up and put in a new abutment structure and secured that and the gate structure around it as well.

Derm Tanner 9:04

And the other thing we should say is that whilst we've been joking a little bit about the walk, it is all uphill and we have only had to carry ourselves. If you're coming here, you've got tools, you've got materials to carry, you've got you know, hardcore. I mean, how does how does all that work? The logistics of that.

Carrying Sleepers And Site Logistics

Colin Unwin 9:22

Sometimes, because we have a conversation with landowners and they want that work done, they will allow us in on routes that wouldn't be open to the public generally. Sometimes that's not available. And last year, Mark and I walked nearly six miles carrying railway sleepers to do the similar bridge crossing backwards and forwards in the real life.

Derm Tanner 9:40

We don't want to put anyone off here. That's a key but I mean that's that's that's an extreme example. Three three sleepers, and we carried it half a mile in and then had to go back for the next one. And it was okay the first time. The second time we were getting a bit weary, the third time we didn't want to carry another railway sleeper again.

Roy Player 9:56

Who decides what is the best bit of material then that's going to be appropriate for a particular walk, or is it just practicalities of what's available?

Mark Chung 10:05

I'd say it's practicalities, and also we have a standard for ditch crossings, which are three railway sleepers, round posts which allow us to put a handrail on as well. And also it depends on, as Colleen made reference before, to the abutments.

Derm Tanner 10:23

And you were telling us earlier as we were wandering up here that you have essentially become approved contractors that aren't paid by the by Pendle Borough Council because you they trust you, you use their kit, you use their tools, and essentially you are doing work to their specification. It's not like you're just sort of happy, you know, go-lucky amateurs. You are very much more than that.

Mark Chung 10:44

Yes, definitely 100%. We we're called the countryside access volunteers, that's what we call ourselves.

Derm Tanner 10:52

That's a lot in a t-shirt, isn't it?

Mark Chung 10:53

Well, we have actually got a t-shirt, but we're not wearing them today, and that is not a joke. Yeah, that is the truth, yeah.

Working With Landowners And Waymarks

Roy Player 11:06

So Mark, we've we've stopped here and it's a it's a great view. But you and I have just walked along together here, and we've just noticed that well, I've noticed, is that there is a brand new fence that's been put up by by the farmer and the new owner of the farm that's in the field has the field. This is obviously something really key for ramblers to notice that you can work alongside landowners.

Mark Dimbleby 11:29

No, absolutely. It's we try and work in collaboration with landowners and, and, and well any, any, any owner to be fair. But as you can see on here, what's happened is that the landowner there was a footpath here that had gone into disuse and people using a footpath on the other side of these trees, which wasn't actually the official designated footpath. So the landowner, the new, new landowner, has then put a fence up and asked us to re-establish the old footpath, which as you can clearly see we have done, we've done vegetable veg clearance, we've obviously put waymark posts in so people now know which route to take. And of course, then walkers know where they're going, and the landowner's happy because nobody's trespassing on his land anymore.

Roy Player 12:17

I mean I think this is this is incredible having these waymarkers because it's so often that you do a walk and you you don't deliberately you don't mean to, but you go on the wrong path, and you can end up in that field. But having these way markers where you've got them here is superb because it keeps you on track.

Mark Dimbleby 12:33

Yeah, absolutely. Well, each report, as you can see, it has, has way marks with arrows, you know, like on that one it's got public footpath or it's got comb boundary walk. But the, the, the biggest benefit, of course, is when you put a yellow cap on. So you can generally see that from quite a distance away to you know where you're walking. So you'll see that when you go down here to the bridge at the bottom, if you look right, you can see the yellow cap on the next post. So it's leading you, it didn't obviously footpaths are all in straight lines, so it's helping people just find their way, you know, keeping the as I said, keeping walkers on the right path and keeping the landowners happy.

Derm Tanner 13:09

What a brilliant but simple idea. I mean, you know, that just it when you say it like that, it's obvious. Yeah, but I've not come across this before. You don't get that in North Yorkshire, you don't you don't see them like that at all. Oh well I thought Yorkshire were God's country, but anyway, let's not start the argument here in the Red Rose County.

Roy Player 13:28

Well I think this is one of the things that we were just talking about as well, is that when we when we chatted to to Vicky and to Steve last season about sort of doing the guided walks, that we were based in the middle of North Yorkshire for that episode, and you know, surrounded by beautiful country. But the thing is that here what's really interesting about this mark is that we're actually just above Colne, the, the town itself. So it's fantastic to be able to have access for people who live in a town to have a great walk like this.

Mark Chung 13:56

Oh, it is, it's brilliant as you're five, ten minutes away, literally from the centre of Colne. I'm from inner city Manchester, and you know the nearest green space we had was a park round the corner where we used to play football. So living in an area like this, you know, virtually on the outskirts of Cone, you're straight into the countryside.

Colin Unwin 14:19

So we're on the back of Tum Hill just above Colne, and it's one of the most ancient places in Pendle. Just behind you on the hill is Castercliff Iron Age Fort, and then to your right is a Roman camp. So we are stood now on an ancient trackway. So the, the public footpath, if you go back far enough, is basically a medieval or even before trackway right across the landscape.

Ancient Trackways And Unexpected History

Derm Tanner 14:46

I love that, I love the fact we're standing where others have stood thousands of years ago.

Colin Unwin 14:51

Well, tens of thousands of years, if we go back far enough on the on the top of that hill hill, we go right up to the Mesolithic time, so early stone age. So people have used this trackway since that time, really.

Derm Tanner 15:02

Goodness, I don't quite know what to say about that.

Colin Unwin 15:05

Just gobsmacking when you think about it. But this had been completely left to overgrow. People had taken a much easier route through the farm and across the land. The new landowner that we talked about before wanted to re-establish this footpath back on its legal defined line. And to do that, he's taken out quite a lot of self-seeded trees and obstructions, boulders that had ended up there, bits of farm equipment, all kinds of things to reopen this. And we've done that work as well. We've done the railing and the new gateways, but he's done all the fencing to enhance what we've done, and he's dug out a lot of things that were in the way across this trackway that have been dumped there over the years by a previous owner.

Roy Player 15:43

I mean you talk about the history you threw. I mean that's another thing that I would never reimagine Derm if he was sort of saying I'm gonna help out with the Ramblers and doing footpath clearing. I would never imagine that also you'd learn and open the doors to other areas like history and discovering about the Romans and what a fantastic historic site this is. This must be something that you feel as though you're learning, gentlemen, something every day.

Mark Dimbleby 16:05

Oh absolutely, it's it's it's we we've well not only this at Colin just talked about now, we we brought back to life a bridleware that had been blocked off over two, three hundred years ago, and this was over towards old Skipton Road, and when we were digging down to put the posts in, you actually came across the actual road itself that was there all that time ago after you'd gone down four four or five feet to put posts in.

Derm Tanner 16:32

Archaeologists suddenly aren't they?

Mark Dimbleby 16:33

Oh indeed, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we find all sorts.

Colin Unwin 16:35

It is quite unusual, it is quite unusual when you reach down to the bottom of a post hole and find the cobbled road surface. Yeah, that's quite unusual. In the middle of a moor, in the middle of nowhere. So the bleakest place you could actually end up.

Derm Tanner 16:46

They knew what they were doing there, weren't they? They really knew what they were doing. It's all about transport, wasn't it? Especially for the Romans, get places efficiently, because I mean they walk miles every day, didn't they?

Colin Unwin 16:55

But the point, the point where we put that gateway in was quite interesting because there'd actually been a highway robbery there in the 1600s, and the guy who'd done the robbery was caught, and he was actually hung for the for the highway robbery, held up a coach there. So that's, that's that's why we knew that's where the path was gonna go.

Roy Player 17:16

So, can I ask you, I mean, apart from learning all these different things, can I sort of say to you first of all, what on earth if people want to come and join you? A how do they join you and your wonderful team and a team across the country as well, that because of Ramblers is across the whole country. But what also do you think those volunteers get out of coming and being a part of this?

Mark Chung 17:37

I think if you're here today, we learn different things, different skills, how to improve, you know, your own maintenance. Important factors are your help in keeping the countryside or rural areas open as well, more accessible for people. If you want to get involved as a volunteer on path maintenance, the easiest thing is to look on the Ramblers website, find your nearest group where you live, and then contact them, ask them if they have a path maintenance team and then start the dialogue with them. Some groups don't, some groups do. As I mentioned before, we've been established about four years, just coming up for four years now. Other groups have probably got decades on us. Or alternatively, contact your local council, borough council or county council, because they may have their own volunteering groups as well.

Derm Tanner 18:29

I was watching your face Mark while we were being up here, and there's a sort of quiet feeling of pride and satisfaction because I guess we're seeing this on a fabulous day. I bet it wasn't a fabulous day when you lot were putting all this together, was it?

Mark Dimbleby 18:45

Well, this job wasn't actually too bad, but when we were doing that bridal way when I said you know, over on the old Skipton Road, the you know we're dismantling walls, the fields. We I mean we wear full waterproofs, obviously, when it's raining, but the, the rain was horizontal. Anyhow, I, I can just remember sat behind a wall trying to eat us sandwiches that were just dripping in water here. So it was yeah, yeah, it isn't always, it's very rarely like this.

Derm Tanner 19:13

Because it's all year round, you you you're working all year round, you don't stop, which is which is again because nature doesn't stop.

Colin Unwin 19:20

No. Well, basically what we do is when we've got our job list of places we're going in the year, we prioritise those in terms of access. So if we know we're going into a bog, we try and put that in the middle of the summer. So it makes it a bit easier. And those jobs that we can do off a road or a hard surface or a hard track or we can access easily from a footpath that's already there, then we'll do those ones in the winter.

Derm Tanner 19:40

And is it you making those kind of decisions? No, not entirely.

Colin Unwin 19:44

It's part, it's a conversation between us, whoever the responsible person is for the group team leader and the right-of-way officer. We work out when we do our site visit, we work out when a good time is to do it, what the access requirements are gonna be, and then all the other aspects about it as well in terms of safety. Where so, like, are there any surfaces on site? You know, are you gonna get a shock if you dig? You know, where is there a drain? What's hidden in the ground? You know, and who are we gonna upset by going there?

Derm Tanner 20:11

That's a good point, because we were talking earlier, Mark, weren't we? Literally hidden dangers.

Mark Chung 20:17

Yeah, there's lots of hidden dangers, and the key thing is the countryside officer, rights away officer for Pendle. They provide us with services maps and also which which is 100% required is landowner permission. But as Mark explained before, we've come across some low voltage, which is actually 415 plus volts cables. We've come across BT cables, Sewerage pipes, drainage pipes when we started digging. And the services maps helped, but you should always be prepared, you never know what's coming. Another particular one we came across. We were doing a job up in Barrowford, I think it was, and there was a new housing estate going in, and we were putting in a centre-wire gate, and the farmer had put a temporary fence up, and he'd driven a metal pole into the ground, and it was literally millimetres away from a high voltage cable.

Costs Materials And Planning New Steps

Derm Tanner 21:19

Okay, Colin, we've been across a little bridge, and we are now in an area where it would seem to me your planning stage, you've got a bit of work to do here. It's it's a quite a heavy incline. There's some new post work done. There's one of those yellow top marker posts, which is always good to see. But to get to it is a bit tricky at the moment. So tell us what are you planning on doing?

Colin Unwin 21:41

Well, here we've got two flights of 12 steps with a landing in between that separates them. All hand railed, and it's quite a considerable climb. So we've got to approach the job itself in a safe way. I always keep stressing safety, but that's a really important that whenever anybody's out on the job, that they are as they are. safe. So there's two flights of steps, but they have to be to regulations. So the the pitch of them, the the going how big your tread is and maximum height all of that has to adhere to regs. So it's quite a a learning process really going through all of that.

Derm Tanner 22:14

And you speak as though they're already in position but they're in your head.

Colin Unwin 22:18

They're all in my head.

Derm Tanner 22:20

There's nothing in position other than some marks in the hill, some tracks as my colleague is winding his way very precariously up to the top.

Colin Unwin 22:29

But they're just they're just worn path that's just a worn path where people have made their own little steps in. Which is fine. But on a 28 degree slope it's not fine really not with the amount of people that are up and down this path.

Derm Tanner 22:41

And and I know people will be thinking this listening because I was thinking a while ago while you were talking, you know, there's a cost to all these gates are 200 pounds each, the wood's expensive. There's a huge cost to this. And there's an awful lot of m work that goes on behind the scenes to access pots of money in order to actually pay for it.

Colin Unwin 22:57

That's correct yeah we don't get involved in that part but what we do is when we're talking to landowners occasionally they will donate material in kind and just say you can have this roll of wire. You can I've got a dozen posts there that you can take and use. We're working on their land and we're doing work that they would be normally required to do. So they're quite happy sometimes to fund it or do works for us.

Derm Tanner 23:19

Have you never been happier than working on coming up with these plans and working this thing and, and then seeing the fruits of your labours.

Colin Unwin 23:26

It is it's a it's a nice thing when we get we m meet people who it does positively impact their lives. I think it was the first gate that Mark did with us we'd actually completed a circular walk and a lady came up with two dogs and she said we're putting a skate in it means I can walk I can walk all the way around now. I I've been walking a sea for the past twenty years. I've been walking around from one point right round and back to the other and then walking back again and now I can walk around in a circle. So it sounds like nothing but it's a big deal for her. It made a big impact on their day-to-day life.

Roy Player 24:03

So Mark I mean we've had a fantastic walk down we I mean it's been absolutely very I mean I've loved every single and learnt a huge amount about what you do and what volunteers will get out of being a part of this process. What I'd just like to end on really though is how important are the volunteers to the Ramblers?

Mark Chung 24:23

Without volunteers the Ramblers wouldn't exist as a charity. Full stop end of story that's it for ETO the Ramblers lives on volunteers people that turn up for committee meetings people that lead walks people like ourselves that work on path maintenance teams people that investigate lost paths people that look after the membership we're all volunteers we do have a staff based in central office I can't remember how many folks they are now but there's probably about hundred Ramblers members there's I think about 102000 to 103000 volunteers maybe 20000 if there were no volunteers if the Ramblers had no volunteers then there'd be no path maintenance no lead walks and that would definitely affect not just the physical but also the you know the mental health of our nations.

Derm Tanner 25:15

So finally gentlemen thank you so much for for taking us around showing us the your your route and with the your the fruits of your labour and and it's been eye-opening not only what you do but why you do it and the thought process that goes into why that gate is where it is and why it opens the way it does that us mere mortals take for granted.

Retirement Anxiety Purpose And Balance

Derm Tanner 25:53

They do say that being outdoors is good for the soul and mental wellbeing and they're not wrong. But what other things can we do to combat the anxiety that retirement often creates for some people it's an area that the Grey Matters More podcast has explored in a little bit more detail.

Pauline Beaumont 26:11

I'm Pauline Beaumont and I retired three years ago from my job as a psychological therapist.

Roy Player 26:18

Pauline thank you for joining us and I just wanna wonder actually please about sort of just discussing that little thing about we're trying to encourage people to go out and do things and be volunteers or take courses and I just wonder though is there another side to this because I've gone through this myself where actually trying to refine that sense of purpose in a day I actually think perhaps I try too hard to try and do different things every day and plan ahead. Is that something that you used to see with people that actually it can be quite stressful replacing work with trying to find loads of things to do.

Pauline Beaumont 26:54

I think that's absolutely right and but when you think about it it's it's quite natural isn't it because when you've had a demanding or stressful job or growth then you're used to a level of activity that is often something that will leave you no time to reflect on things and think about things and when that's taken away we can be left with feelings of anxiety for example. Often when we retire if our whole identity has been tied up in our job title and our work then it may well be that we start we feel really bereft and we feel a bit at sea, we feel a bit lost. So one of the reasons why it's what you're doing is so helpful and so such a good idea is that actually we do need a sense of purpose and we need a reason to get up in the morning. We need to have something that we feel we can contribute which is useful but we also need to be aware of the danger of going too far and making it into another job and creating stress for ourselves because that feels familiar. So I think balance is the thing. Allowing ourselves to learn to relax learning to just be and not be doing all the time is something that we actually need to practice. I think you mentioned mindfulness and that's something that can be very helpful in that regard. So finding that balance between allowing ourselves to rest and to just be but also to have meaningful activity that gives us a reason to get up in the morning and a sense of satisfaction and pride in ourselves and you know we are lucky enough to be living at a time where it's possibly a third of our life that we're going to be retired and if we're really lucky then a lot of that time we're going to be healthy and well and have a lot to contribute not least the the wisdom dare I say that comes from years and years of experience.

Roy Player 28:52

In some cases I'm not too sure that my wisdom is improved

Pauline Beaumont 28:54

but in in some cases you know there are other cultures where there is much more respect for the elderly there are other cultures where it sometimes feels as if people are written off and I think that that's not that's not helpful.

Roy Player 29:09

I think also I don't know about you but I also think that because of a cultural thing and perhaps also with subconsciously over the years there is almost a guilt factor here. That if you're actually not doing what is alleged is in inverted commerce but doing something and doing something important actually relaxing is just as vital to us. But don't feel guilty about relaxing

Finding Joy Planning Ahead And Closing

Pauline Beaumont 29:34

I think that's absolutely right but it's it's so much of our behaviour is habitual and if we're used to being constantly on the go, then it's actually quite challenging to move into a situation where we're able to be quite happy sitting, reading or whatever. I think that finding things that you enjoy as well is really important. So I'm just thinking that one of the things that I've done recently is join our leisure centre in Berwick and you know there's very good deals for people who are retired and so I fairly rapidly discovered that I really didn't like the gym at all but I love the classes. So I do dance related classes and stretchy things like yoga and it's social and it's physical exercise but it's it's stretches your brain as well learning dance moves and things like that. So it's the best of all possible worlds and so I think that's something else that you know you find something that you can enjoy then you're going to be doing it. You don't want something that you're going to be dreading going along to

Roy Player 30:38

What we have discovered when we did our first season of this "Grey Matters More" was that people that were the happiest were the people that had found going to do volunteering or doing courses that they felt passionate about and it was also all the volunteer managers also said it is a sheer joy when people come along and they find they kind of want to perhaps a better better phrase but they're happy place. There's no point in going to do something just for the sake of it.

Pauline Beaumont 31:09

Absolutely and as you were saying that I was thinking as the train blows this way

Roy Player 31:17

that it's beautiful yes that really steps back in time as well doesn't it .

Pauline Beaumont 31:22

I was thinking that one of the things that can be incredibly helpful is thinking about this and starting things and planning things before you retire. So when I think back to preparation for retirement that was offered my blast employer it was all to do with pensions and that sort of thing. But nothing really to do with the more emotional and psychological side of it and the practical side of it. So I think something that I would advise anybody coming up towards retirement is to actually start those things before they retire so that you're not falling off a cliff edge when you know you've you've packed up and and left the office for the last time.

Roy Player 32:04

I wish and having gone through sort of as we were chatting about but also bereavement as well not just bereavement of leaving work but also bereavement of losing a, a, a parent it's, it's as you quite rightly said it's a it's a double blow it's a double thing to, to have to deal with and in a way there's no preparation throughout the whole of life that basically can prepare you for that. There's nothing that is given over the years of school college work that actually gives you the background in learning how to deal with getting older and what happened and what happens.

Pauline Beaumont 32:41

And and as you rightly say that it's a genuine loss when we have our identity tied up and our working hours you know being such an important part of our lives. Many of us have spent more time and work than we did with our families when we were working full time. So acknowledging that it's a loss means that there are active things you can do to help yourself through that process and thinking about it and talking about it is actually one of the things that can be very helpful because one of the things that I discover in the workshops I run here at Heatherslaw is that people you know feel quite safe to have a a confidential chat and it's very very helpful when you hear somebody else talking about something that you felt as well that you know you're not alone and that a lot of these feelings are shared. So that in itself can be can be helpful.

Derm Tanner 33:36

You've been listening to Grey Matters More produced and presented by Roy Player and Derm Tanner. Please don't forget to like follow or subscribe that way you'll never miss an episode