Thank you for listening to DrawNear with Fred and Kara.

Drawnear is brought to you locally by Cybercloak.tech, providing confidence and cybersecurity for small businesses. Learn more by contacting Cybercloak.tech's CTO and founder, Steve Gretkin, at 712-220-3001. Thank you for joining us on Draw Near. Rooted in the Catholic faith, this is more than a podcast. It's a space where authenticity meets joy. We're two best friends navigating life, family, and faith with honesty and a lot of love.

Every episode is a heartfelt conversation. Sometimes deep, often lighthearted, and always real. Our hope is to inspire you as we all grow closer to Christ and to one another.

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We are really enjoying getting to, you know, put out an episode, hopefully every Wednesday. That's our goal. And we have uh a list of things that we want to bring to you. But I texted Fred on Sunday after going to Mass in the morning, and I was like, I really feel like God wants us to do an episode on the gospel. And it's kind of funny because that was like a lot of our past episodes. That's what we were basing it on. We were doing the readings from the previous week and then putting out the episodes. Um, and so we're gonna return to that today and just look at the gospel from Mass this past weekend. I'm sure you guys all heard really wonderful homilies um because this is a really good passage to pull in a lot of different themes. So I'm excited to talk about it and we'll see what God has in store. But we are gonna read the passage. Um, it's not necessarily like a Lexio episode, but we are gonna talk about themes and hopefully hopefully it can just like speak to some spiritual things going on in your own life or areas you want to grow in.

Yeah, this week the gospel comes from Luke 18, 9 through 14. And so we'll we'll go ahead and dive in and read from the scripture. Jesus addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. Two people went up to the temple area to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself. O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity, greedy, dishonest, adulterous, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income. But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast and prayed, O God, be merciful to me, a sinner. I tell you the latter went home justified, not the former. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.

Is this where the church gets the the um Jesus prayer? Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. I wasn't sure, but when I heard it, that that was like the first thing that came to my mind when I heard it at Mass. It was like to pause and like pray that prayer. Um, I don't know. I think there are a lot of things that stand out to me, and obviously, like we could chat about what stood out to you too, Fred. But like when I was listening to we always read the gospel uh in the car, and it was funny because BJ and I were in the middle of a conversation on our way to mass, and then Aggie, she's three, is just sitting in the back, interrupting us, going, Can you read the gospel? Can you read the gospel in her like cute little three-year-old voice? So we read the gospel on our way to Mass. Um, and then obviously hear it again at Mass. And there were just a lot of things that like I kept, I don't know, that kept like standing out. And I think um the first one was actually like right there at the beginning when it says those who were convinced of their own righteousness.

That one stings a little bit, doesn't it?

It does, yeah. It's like he's like passively being like, you kind of got it wrong, you know. Um, but it reminds me of it's it wasn't Therese who said it, but it was in the I believe in love retreat with Terez, where um the author says, the closer we think ourselves to the goal, the further we actually are away. So it does sting like those who are convinced of their own righteousness. And I think like, I'll speak for myself, but I imagine there are actually a lot of people, if we're really honest with ourselves out there, like this is me a lot of the time. It's like, well, I work for the church, well, I pray, well, I get to talk about him all the time. And so, like you almost just see the things, like the outward things that are done. And it's like, oh, I'm I'm I'm holy. And I like the the challenge that this presents, the stinging, like you said. Right. I don't know. I always I always like to kind of just hear it direct. Um, that's like, hold on. It actually reminded me of um the scripture passage where Nathan goes to the house of Jesse and he's like looking for who's gonna be the next king of e Israel, the anointed one. Um it's in first first Samuel chapter six. And finally he gets to the youngest son, David, and he doesn't necessarily look like a king. Um, he's just out there, you know, he's a shepherd. And in scripture, God says to Nathan, the Lord sees not as man sees. Man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart. I just I love that. Like, how true is that in the world we live in today? That we really we we see the outward, not just what people look like, but what they do and how they act and how they present themselves. But I find a lot of like peace and comfort knowing that God sees more, if that makes sense. And he also sees like the mask beyond the mask.

Yeah, you're right, Kira. I think this also reminds me of the tendency for those who work in ministry or those who have done work in ministry. I've I've felt this way before where I don't need that message. This is for them, you know. You know, have you ever felt that way, Kara?

Or 100%.

Yeah.

Yeah, I I feel like I whenever I go to a talk or something that's like about a topic that maybe I give a presentation or talk on, I always think that. I'm like, yeah, I already know that, or I give a talk on that. And there was one time where that happened where God literally was like, Kara, if you think this talk is not for you, you're the one who needs it the most. I was like, okay. Yeah.

And that's always the case. If you find yourself sitting in mass and you hear a homily and you think, Oh, I wish so-and-so was here to hear this, or that's what they need to hear, that means it is you that needs to hear it first. Um I think we also find in this um that the reality that true holiness begins with humility, not comparison. Like if your holiness is rooted in or your perceived holiness is rooted in comparing yourself to others rather than in God's grace and mercy, um, then there's a problem. That should be a red flag.

Yeah. And I think honestly, just like in this, in this parable, like Jesus is trying to teach us something. I think at any point, if that's something we we lean into of comparing ourselves, allow God to kind of correct you. You know, he is a loving father. And even if even if the corrections like sting a little, they're still loving and he's giving them to you lovingly. Um, I remember recently there, I went to mass with a relative of mine, um, and I won't call this person out, but I went to mass with a relative of mine, and this person um doesn't necessarily practice the faith. And the homily was like so good for that particular situation. And I kept thinking to myself, like, oh, I'm so glad this person's here. Oh, they really need to hear this. Um, and I felt like the whole time, like, because that day I got to see this person, the whole day, it was almost like I was seeing the ways that he was like holy and holier than I was. Like I was, I was like falling back into like a habit or a vice or like talking about somebody or whatever. And it was almost like he just like was like, oh, mm-hmm, and like like shut it down. And I was just like so impressed. And I was like, you know what? Like, I needed to hear that message. Like, yeah, okay, he's not practicing the faith. And I was sitting there thinking, like, oh, I come to mass, I'm practicing the faith. And throughout that whole day, God was like stinging my heart, like, no, Cara, like you need to look to him because I'm looking at his heart, right? And like he's challenging your heart. So I feel like there's just like so much beauty in this passage and an invitation to really like humble ourselves to look interiorly and honestly at ourselves.

Yeah. So you saw the speck in their eye and not the beam in your own eye.

Not the beam in my own, exactly. Yeah.

You can see this in the prayer too. I think the way the two pray is fascinating. You have the the Pharisee who is it's an actually kind of a long prayer detailing all the things he does, and then you have the tax collector with a very short, clearly uh repentant prayer, honest prayer. Sometimes we make prayer too complicated, like we're trying to impress God with all of our words. And you can kind of see a little bit of that in here. But one thing that really stood out to me was the Pharisee prayed to himself.

Yes.

It's a it's very striking. It's a self-centered, not God-centered prayer. Whereas the the tax collector is crying out to God himself and begging for mercy. He he sees his his need for God's grace, not his what he's done as a as a way of justifying himself.

100%. That was something that stood out to me too. Like he's comparing himself to other people, like listing all of their sins. But then he said, you know, I fast, I do this, I do this. It's very like me driven. And like the tax collector, it's about him. Yes, I am a I am a sinner. Have mercy on me, a sinner, but like it's calling out to God. So it's like the subject of it or the invitation is to God, not about himself. I I like that too. Um, just like showing the reliance and also their postures. Um, again, like the outward, the outward appearance. It's like not something that God is necessarily looking at, but the outward appearance in this case, I think also signifies something that's going on internally because he's like, like, oh, thank you, Lord. Look that I'm not like, you know, and he's like very like lofty and loud and wants people to like look at him out of pride. And the tax collector, he can't even raise his eyes towards God and he has his head bowing down and is just showing like this interior posture of humility. Right. It's very beautiful.

Even ever sometimes the Pharisees get a bad rap. Um, and I think the Pharisees are were honestly trying to live the faith well, but oftentimes could be could fall into this very trap. And you see that happening here.

Um Yeah, sorry, did my like mocking voice make it sound like they're not holy?

No, I was sorry, no, you're totally fine, Kira.

They're church leaders, like they're trying to lead people to a place of like faithfulness, but sometimes I think they can get a little bit um not distracted, but like overcome with laws and everything that's like external, and there's not necessarily that invitation to look inward um or at the relationship with God, it's all about the external acts.

Right. And and you can see it in the focus of his prayer. I do this, I do that. Um, as if he he it is his own source of grace and and mercy and redemption and salvation. Whereas in the with the tax collector, you don't see that. It reminds me of there's a uh common story that people point to from Peter Krieft, uh, where he he gave an assignment to college students, and it was if if you died today and Jesus asked, Why should I let you into heaven? How would you answer that question? And everyone turned in their assignment, but everyone had the answer wrong. You know, a lot of the answers focused on what would you say about that because you died for me and your grace and mercy make it possible for salvation, you know. Uh that's short answer, but that's ultimately what it is. Why should I let you into heaven? Because you made the way for me too. Uh, and I trust in you, you know, I give my life to you. That sort of answer, that's the correct answer, and you see that in the tax collector.

But and all the students were focusing on like their litany of stuff or what?

Yes, yeah. Basically, the that you know, I did this, I did that, I'm a good person. And what is what does a good person even mean? This is just a this is a pet peeve of mine going back to a callback to a previous episode. So the pet peeve it really is that comparison of I'm a good person, and what we compare ourselves to is I didn't murder anyone today. You know, I I didn't steal anything of great value, I didn't do all these other horrible crimes. I'm not Hitler, therefore I'm a good person, therefore you should let me into heaven. That's setting the bar really, really low, but it's rooted in something we see happening in this this reading, and that is comparison.

Yeah. And like we're all called to holiness, but it looks so different. You see that in the life of the saints. It looks so different for every person. So we can't fall into a trap of comparison. Well, at least I did more than this person. I don't know. I think it's really easy too. And this maybe would be like something I would invite honest reflection of each of our listeners about. You mentioned this goes really well with like working in ministry. I feel like sometimes it's really easy to like say or see people who are really active in the church or say to ourselves, like, well, I volunteer, I bring baked goods, or I lead this book study, or I do this, and it's all about like the doing. But it just like there's that scripture passage where Jesus, uh he says, Many will cry out, Lord, Lord, you know, and I'll say, I never knew you. Depart from me, I never knew you. And so it's like, even the people who serve him and do work, and like, you know, we we give a life to him, um, he'll he might say, like, I never knew you, because it's not about what we do. It's not about the outward appearance, it's about the heart. Like, what's the intention behind what we do? Are we doing it for God? Or are we doing it to justify ourselves um and to claim righteousness for ourselves?

Yeah, and that's that's a good uh scripture to point to too, because what you're referencing is depart from me, I never knew you. You know, basically Jesus asked that same question of why should I let you in? And and they give a lengthy list uh of all the good things that all the stuff they did. And he says, Depart from me, I never knew you. Because it's it's all about what we've done. And going back to how I started talking about working in ministry, I think there is a real danger for those who do work in ministry. This is true for everybody, but I think in particular from my experience, because we can be so busy doing the works of God that we neglect the God of works. And it's easy to make our job a substitute for our faith.

Oh yeah. I've been there.

Yeah. And and fall, and even in then we can fall into comparison of comparing ourselves to those we serve, if that makes sense.

Well, yeah, or feeling like if we don't have something to justify, then we're not good enough. Not even just in the eyes of our coworkers or our supervisor, but also in the eyes of God. I'm not, I haven't done enough for you.

Right.

And I don't know, like just turning it back on that question, you know, why should I let you into heaven? It's not about if we've done enough, it's that God already did enough and relying on like his sacrifice for us. Right. I will say, like, I don't think I am alone in saying, like, I've been in a position where um, like my reputation was like at not at stake, but like kind of tarnished in a particular situation. Um, I imagine like many people have kind of gone through something like that. Like you've been, you felt shame, you've been embarrassed. Maybe people listening have been fired before, maybe you've been gossiped about, talked badly about, or your reputation been dragged through the mud, like at any point, you know, you name any of those, those things. You know, that can like hurt. That can hurt. And like we just almost like just fall into this place of like, well, what what is this for? Like, what's my purpose then? And like, or I'm a very big, I like that if people think well of me. And so it just like hurt. I didn't know what to do with it. And so I really like I go back to to that passage in in 1 Samuel 16. The Lord does not look at the outward appearance as man does, but he looks at the heart. And just I just see that in this passage and like like clinging to that comfort of like, okay, it's hard if you hear something, even if it's about somebody that you know, sometimes that like perception almost becomes reality in somebody's mind. And that's something that like I really struggle with. I think we've even said that, Fred, you and I. It's like, you know, I hope people would know us well enough too, X, Y, Z. Like, you know, come to us or like ask us or just like take things with a grain of salt or whatever. Um, but yeah, I just I find a lot of comfort in knowing that I don't, I don't have to stand before the world to be judged. I stand before Christ and he knows every situation. He knows my even even the actions of the situation, beyond that, he knows my heart and my intention. Um, I just think there's a peace in that and just like it's just a relief.

Yeah.

You see that in this passage because like Jesus points to, like I said, like we've talked about, he points to a religious leader. Like, how often are they just not even necessarily like church leaders? I'm not talking about priests or deacons, but I guess they would fall into this too, but just like somebody in your life that you hold in esteem or that has authority. We see what they do and we see the outward things, and like there's this assumption, especially working in the church. I guess I'm speaking from my experience working in the church, there's this assumption, like, oh, they they are holy, they're living the life, they're they're kind. And I'm not saying that they're not, but really like God is the one who knows. And in comparison to this, this Pharisee, this religious leader, he elevates a sinner. He elevates a tax collector who, in everyone else's eyes, he was chastised. He didn't even have a reputation to tarnish because it had already been dragged so far through the mud.

Tarnished in his person, so to speak. Yeah.

Exactly. At least in their eyes. Exactly. And like, I don't know, I think of the scenes in The Chosen where it's Matthew, the tax collector, and just like you you sense like I don't know, his loneliness and his despair, the place that he's in. Like, what c what leads him to say yes to Jesus, calling him out of wealth, calling him out of this job that he gave up everything for? This, I think it's this place of loneliness, and also this like desire to be a part of something greater, which is God. And so you see this like tax collector put up against this man who looks holy, and this sinner who no one wants to associate with. And I don't know, just like who's the greatest among the two of them? It's the sinner, it's the one that no one really knows what's going on in his heart. So, like I said, I just find a lot of peace in that. Like, people don't have to know what your intention is, they don't have to know what's going on in your life, they don't have to see all the good works and hear about all the good works, because don't we love to tell everyone? But God knows, you know.

Yeah. I found myself thinking about this from a completely different angle, and it's not in the text at all. But I couldn't help but think of it. So we've talked a lot about comparison, how comparison really does kill compassion because we're we're measuring ourselves against others and we're losing sight of grace. But I think I could also see hints of this in how we compare ourselves to others in terms of our holiness. Oh, we see like sometimes we look at the lives of the saints or people we know that are living the faith well, and some for some reason we get discouraged by that. We could never be as holy as them. You know, oh I could never. How many times have we heard that, Kara? Oh, I could never. You know, oh yeah, yeah. I can comparison, even when we're comparing ourselves for for good things, it doesn't necessarily have to be comparing ourselves to a sinner or someone we know isn't necessarily living up the lifestyle, at least externally, that we might we might uh think of grace in in their life. But how often do we measure ourselves against people that are that are living the faith well, at least as far as we could tell, especially the saints, and then get discouraged and allow that discouragement to hinder how well we can live the faith well. And by that I mean how much we allow God's grace to transform us from the inside out.

Yeah. Like it's easy to in pride compare ourselves and see. Like, oh, maybe I have it a little bit more figured out. But then, like, it's also easy to fall into this self-deprecating mentality of looking at the true, like truly holy saints and be like, well, I'm never going to be like that. And so really it comes down to like honest humility, letting go of pride and recognizing I love so sorry, I'm jumping. My my son at mass, he saw this prayer booklet in front of us at uh in the pew, and this lady was reading and it had Saint Therese on it. And he goes, Mom, and he got so excited. He goes, Mom, look, it's Saint Therese. And then he smiles at me. Y'all, he just has the best smile. He just looks up and he smiles at me and he goes, It's the little flower. And I wanted to cry. And so in the car, he goes, Why do they call her the little flower? I was like, I'll tell you later. So in the car, I was talking about why they call her the little flower. And I mentioned in her autobiography that she was talking about all these great saints and how it was like a garden. And all these great saints were like the roses and the lilies and all these beautiful flowers. But she just wanted to be this little small flower that God could look at towards his feet and find joy in. And so, like she compared herself to this little flower. I'm not saying we can't like look towards the saints and see our ways to grow because that's not self-deprecating. That's like looking at them as witnesses and wanting to live that way as well. But it's also there's something beautiful in accepting how small we truly are and like living in that honest humility. I think it's it's just like it's difficult. It's super, it's super difficult, but like there's something really like light. It's just it's just so much lighter about it. It's like recognizing I can't do this, but also I don't have to do this because you're giving me the grace and you're giving me the like freedom, you're giving me the salvation to go out and do it and to like change my heart and my intention. You know what I mean?

Right. Yeah. Um, I hear in that also that the idea of oh, I could never or I can't measure up is it's a false humility because the one that's supposed to be doing the work in you is God. And to say I could never, yeah, you never will if you don't allow God's grace to transform your life. And who are we to say what God can do in our life transformed when we give our hearts over to Him? Who knows what that tax collector went on to become and what he went on to do? Um, and then with grace animating his life. Like I know it's a parable, but still it could very well be a true story, you know.

Do you think that if we say, Oh, I could never, is there something in there that's like, oh, God could never?

I think for a lot of people, um, if they examine their heart, they they might not realize it, but that's a lot of times what they're saying. That's what I was gonna say.

It might be very unconscious. Like the the reaction of hearing me ask that question for listeners might be like, no, that's not what it is. So it might be very unconscious, but is there like a small amount of like distrust of what God wants to truly do within you?

I think so. Um, I think we need to open our hearts like the tax collector, that despite what things look like, despite circumstances, despite how we feel about ourself, uh, when we rely upon his mercy and upon his grace and allow it into our life, God can do an amazing work. Thank you once again for listening to Draw Near with Fred and Kara. DrawNear is brought to you locally by Cybercloak.tech, providing confidence and cybersecurity for small businesses. Learn more by contacting Cybercloak.tech's CTO and founder, Steve Gretkin, at 712 220 3001. We now return to regularly scheduled programming here on Siouxland Catholic Radio.