Draw Near
Draw Near
Draw Near: Leading Children to Christ
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In this episode of Draw Near, we explore how Scripture becomes a living encounter with the voice of God. We talk about how to prepare our hearts to hear him, the power of knowing the full story of salvation, and how God speaks uniquely and personally through His Word. With personal stories, practical tips, and favorite passages that have carried us through suffering and joy, we hope to inspire you to trust that God is speaking to you.
Whether you’re new to reading Scripture or longing to go deeper, this conversation will help you move from simply reading the Bible to truly encountering the God who loves you.
Thank you for listening to DrawNear with Fred and Kara.
SPEAKER_00DrawNear is brought to you locally by Cybercloak.tech, providing confidence and cybersecurity for small businesses. Learn more by contacting Cybercloak.tech's CTO and founder, Steve Gretkin, at 712-220-3001.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for listening to Draw Near with Fred and Kara. We have a very good friend of ours and a regular guest, I think, on the show. You've kind of become a regular. Thank you. If you don't know Sister, you need to. So go back and listen to all of the other episodes.
SPEAKER_00It's easy for all of our listeners to do. Just like go grab coffee with Sister, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Or go back and listen to the other episodes. But then you're gonna you're gonna get like phone calls. I'd like to get to know you. Great. I love that. Um, but we invited Sister on here because Fred and I have kind of been wanting to take up this topic for a while. Um, just the topic of the human person and like how we treat one another in the world and in the church. And um we think the one of the best people who can speak into this is Sister. She's kind of our guide on this. I feel like you're low-key our spiritual director. Even though you're even though you're not, but you are. Um, so you've all you've always spoken into that for our lives, but also I think you have um a unique perspective. One as a spiritual director. Um, I know you know Ignatian spirituality is is very fond in your heart, and then you have experience with the Theology of the Body Institute. Um, so I think just the human person and the dignity of the human person is something that you could really speak into. So we're very grateful that you're here to do that with us uh and get into this discussion. That's kind of where I want to start though, okay, is is um the dignity of the human person because a lot of the topics we are gonna talk about today, um not that they're subjective, but they might fall into the gray area of the church teachings. Like there is morality in the church, there's black and white, and sometimes there's like dark gray, you know, we know it's the black, we know it's we know it's closer to um what's good. And I think before we really get into some of those things, it's good to just establish the foundation, like what is the dignity of the human person, what is the value of every person. And so can you speak a little bit into that with your experience with uh the the theology of the body institute?
SPEAKER_03Sure, yeah, I'll try. Um, I think the biggest thing that's affected me lately is this idea, or not idea, like this truth that humans are um created in themselves as like it's a pure gift. So like we're gift-friely given to others, where like creation and animals, like there's kind of like a subjectivity to humans in a way, but how the human person um is a gift in itself, like it it they have their own self-awareness and this kind of dignity that no one can take, but that you can give yourself to another as a free gift. So this recognition of like free will and like even the Lord like allowing the person to choose. Um but the the dignity is so deep in the person that um they they are our gift to be given to others freely, but that other people don't grasp at that. And like when we grasp is kind of when we um treat someone in a way that's not dignified, that like kind of strips that from them in a way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. When I think dignity of the human person, like it goes back to Genesis when it says like he created man and woman in his image and likeness. So it's like how I would like to approach every person. I'm not gonna say that that's how I do, although that's the goal, uh, is the dignity found in God. Like, how do I approach God? How what's the love I have for God? What's the opinion I have of God? And if every single person is created in his image and in his likeness, like shouldn't we approach every single person in that way? I think so often what I find, whether it's in the church or just the culture as a whole, is like we approach the people who think the same as us in that way. And and then we like think it's easy to think negatively or treat people different who don't think the same as us. So I think that's like a challenge. Uh, in a good way, like what we should be striving for is all people are created in image and likeness of God Himself and have that dignity. And regardless of it of what they think about us, and regardless of what they think about religion and Catholicism and God, like they all deserve to be treated with that dignity.
SPEAKER_00I like that you did you did point out like a gift freely given, every person is a gift. I think when we hear dignity of the human person, we tend to limit that to uh a pro-life sort of message, was it which isn't a bad thing. Yes, that that is at the heart of dignity of the human person and the pro-life truth, you know. And it's also like theology of the body care mentioned that it it's also not limited to our sexuality, like you're a gift for each other beyond just that way.
SPEAKER_01Gift to each other and a gift to God. Right. That's something that that we talked about in our I believe in love book study. Actually, it was like I think it was in the Eucharist chapter. Like when you receive the Eucharist, it's pleasing to him, and you're you're giving yourself as a gift to him. But I think it extends beyond just like when you receive the Eucharist. It's just in general, like you are a gift to God, and because of that gift, like he gifts himself to you, you gift yourself back because of that, you're able to gift yourself to one another. So it's just a very beautiful um like cycle, you know, that he's given us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But Kara, the people that I disagree with and that annoy me don't feel like a gift to me.
SPEAKER_01You probably don't feel like a gift to them either. No, but what's what's on the outside and what's happening on the outside isn't always what is going on on the inside, you know. And I speaking of St. Terez, like that happened with her, you know, the old grouchy sister who she had to roll back to her room didn't see Terez as a gift to her. And Terez probably didn't see her as a gift to her, but like in that relationship of sacrificing and denying her um herself, Saint Therese, herself, like she put up with it, she brought her back to her room. Like, God sees that intention. He sees the interior life of that and the interior gift. And on the outside, it might not look like something, you know, supernatural or just this great gift. But inside, he's like, you know, thank you for doing that. That's that's a great gift of love, right there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I think even too, like, I know for me, something that I can struggle with is like this possessiveness. So even in the idea of like, not just like being possessive over friends, but like almost like being possessive of how I think someone should think or like what I think they should say, like that. I have this right to say, like, well, you're not thinking like I think, and like even like their their thoughts, their emotions, like that is all gift in the sense of like I have to receive it. I can't control it. So and like in the ways that I try to control how someone thinks or what someone says, there's like a grasping in that. And again, like the Lord is calling us to like a freedom of like re like receptivity, and like, can you accept someone um where they are? And like that is accepting them as gift and like loving them where they are versus like I have the right to like change your mind or or tell you how you should think, and like kind of forcing yourself on someone versus like receiving them.
SPEAKER_01I feel like I struggle with this, like letting other people be a gift to me, like letting other people love me well. So I think that also goes to you two. Yeah. So that is Yeah, I'd give a hearty amen. This is just a room full of people we're terrible and people love us. But that kind of goes to the same like like let other people be that gift to you, um, which I'm not good at, but he wants like that's what God's given them to us for. There's a whole um, I don't know why I keep going back to this book. It's just kind of where I'm at in in life because I'm reading it, but there's a whole book on on that. It's called fraternal charity, like loving amongst yourselves, and we get that from the love of God. So letting people actually love you well and be a gift for you.
SPEAKER_00Right. But sister, like thinking about what Kara said and what you said, like in terms of seeing the dignity of the human person in other people, even when they disagree, is there some like how does culture in our wounds and our experiences shape whether or not we extend the dignity of the human person to others?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That's a loaded question because culture is different than wounds.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. I think it's also like our perception of what does love look like? You know, um and in those in those moments, like can I recognize like my own woundedness and like how I might want to respond to their woundedness? I think almost we have to like recognize like if I'm not gonna be able to treat them with dignity in this moment, and kind of be like, well, they're wounded, and this is clearly, but can I like first recognize like my own woundedness and like the inability to love them well? Um, I think that our culture sometimes like wants us to look at the other's flaw or like the other's weaknesses and like put that on them, like, well, clearly, like they didn't have enough of this or that, but sometimes we have to see like our own brokenness first in order to like meet someone where they're at.
SPEAKER_01You mentioned that uh it goes to well, how do we understand love? I feel like the culture plays a huge role in in how everyone understands love. You know, for people in the church, it's easy to see the cross and understand love as sacrificial. I should I shouldn't say easy because I don't think everybody um in the church actually knows that. And that's a shame. So God loves you, love is sacrificial, he sacrificed himself for you. Um, and that's the reality, but especially for those who may not hear that or may not be in the church, like love is uh influenced by what the world says love is. And I think the world says love is, you know, how another person makes you feel. Um, and that's not always the case. Like they don't always make you feel amazing, but you still choose to love those people. Um, just like you said, what if what if they don't like you? Well, they still uh we still choose to love them. And so I would say the culture uh plays a huge part in our understanding of love, which definitely plays a part in how we treat other people and the dignity that we see in them, or potentially the the dignity that we don't see in them, um, even though we should. I would also say that um I think the culture, like how it can impact the way we treat people, like the way I see, I kind of see it from a point of like, what can other people do for us? I think that's what the culture, I guess I shouldn't say I see it this way. I think the culture lives in a world of like, what can they do for me? And so it's almost like there's not dignity in a person, but there's a servitude in that person. There's um uh like the friendship of utility. You know, we have uh a uh episode on virtuous friendships, and one of them is friendship of utility. Like, what can they do for you? What can you do for them? I almost feel like that's kind of the human-to-human interaction that is so prevalent in all our culture is like this servitude. So rather than seeing them as a person with feelings and a need for love and a need for rest and a need for, you know, respect and dignity, like we see them as like, well, this is your job, this is what you're gonna do for me. This is, you know, and it's so um servile, if that makes sense. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I think it comes back to that, like, like you're saying, the utilitarian, like the use of another person versus like, I would like to receive this from you, but I'm going to only receive it into in a disposition of that receptivity, that like if you do something for me or serve me, it's not an expectation I have, but I only receive it as gift. And so, yeah, just that idea of like again, are we using people or are we like receiving them?
SPEAKER_01Right. And do we love them even if they're not giving us something? Right. Like we can they still have uh they still have a purpose in the world and in our life, even if they're not like immediately giving you something. Like we still love them.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's interesting, like you started by talking about theology of the body and JP2. The opposite of love is use. You like we want to think it's hate, but it's actually use.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Or even like I think sometimes our culture equates like loving someone with agreeing with someone. Like, if you love me, you're gonna agree with me on everything. Um tolerance. Yeah. And it's like, can can love go beyond that? That I can love the person despite if we whether it's like agreeing on topics or just even agreeing on like little things, daily things. Um can I still love despite that?
SPEAKER_01Right. Okay, so with that, like we're talking a little bit about how the culture has influenced us, but also, you know, this idea of like fraternal charity and love towards one another. So I want to kind of get into a little bit of the like questions that Fred and I are curious about about how to love others well. So what is the difference between gossip and venting? And I feel like a lot of times it's like, oh, I was just venting, but like venting also has the the possibility of being unhealthy as well. So, like, what's the difference and what's the limit, I guess?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Great question. I ask myself this all the time. Um, I'll just speak from my experience and what I've kind of found is um just like anything, like what is your intention? Um, I think there are healthy, proper outlets for venting, like who am I venting to and what's the reason behind it? And what's the quantity details, like, you know, how long am I gonna like vent for, you know, how much of the character of the person am I gonna go into? Um, so I think venting can be healthy to be able to like process something. Um, but I think it's like, how often am I doing this? And and really, like, what's the intention behind it? Is it also to then like speak badly about someone versus like this situation happened? This person did this and made me really frustrated. Like, I want a vent to let it go versus like I want a vent to like simmer in it and like just get angrier and then like let someone into the situation because I'm quote unquote venting and it's okay. But I'm really just like gossiping about the person. Right.
SPEAKER_01I can see that. Like uh in the intention, is it to bring other people to a place where they also are as outraged as I am and or do I need like verification that my feelings are are accurate and like like it's okay that I feel this way. And I don't remember if it's um if it's an imitation of Christ or where it is, but it talks about like how we shouldn't care about what other people say about us, but we just care about what God says about us. And I think sometimes the the um inclination to vent or to gossip like can come from a place of I need other people to agree with me as opposed to just relying on like if God sends that affirmation that yeah, you're you have some righteous anger here, like you were right. Uh if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00It does. I I'm I'm hearing another fine line in what you're saying too, Karen, that we need validations as human beings. And sometimes like we get that muddled with our opinions, our outrage being validated. Does that make sense? And like, so maybe I don't know if this is true, sister. What do you think? Maybe like the healthy venting is for the sake of getting it off my chest, being validated as a human person. Yeah. Or like, join me in my anger. Like, you know, those are the two. I don't know. What do you what do you think?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think if it's like, come join me as I rip this person apart verbally, versus like, I don't know how to love them well in this situation happen, and like they're just really a challenge for me. But I'm doing this because I want to let it go so I can love them better. And so, like, in order to do that, I need to feel like seen because I wasn't seen by them. And like, can you let me know if like what I'm sharing, like if there's anything I need to be called out? Where it's like more of like a learning kind of process to let it go and love them better, versus like, I want to bring someone in in this quasi-confidential thing to really just like yeah, have someone hop on my anger train and like get angry with me. But like, yeah, again, like, is the purpose because I want to be able to love them deeply and I need to I kind of almost for me at least, I try to use like in my head the word like processing. Like my venting has to be processing. It's because if I look at it as like venting in the past, I think is when I've crossed lines to like it's just becoming gossip and like simmering in the situation. Versus like, okay, I need to externally talk this out so that I can let it go. So Fred used the word healthy venting. Yeah. Is that what you would then call healthy venting? If you're processing it. Yeah, I think that's how I've kind of been able to set the boundary. Not that I always do it well, but in my mind, I'm like, okay, I need to externally process this with someone I can trust. Right. So that the purpose is I can let it go and love them better.
SPEAKER_01And there's probably like a limit on that too. You know, when you say someone you can trust, that's like a spiritual director. You should be able to go into spiritual direction and like, you know, share or vent, as we're saying, what is going on or a situation that you're really struggling with, or if you have really close friendships, you should be able to go to those people. But if you're if every single person you encounter that day needs to hear this story, you know, that's crossing the line to unhealthy venting. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03That would be like, yeah, the like the amount of times. Like if I did it to one person in the morning, like you're saying, Kara, like then every other good friend I'm gonna see, I'm gonna be like, by the way, you know, like, yeah, why am I continuing this? You know, why am I letting this be drawn out? And also, am I bringing it to the Lord too? Like, I think he always has to be in there. I don't think it has to be just isolated to him because he wants to, like, Fred is saying, like, for us to be validated through incarnationally through someone else. Um, but I think like also to ask myself, okay, have I like prayed on it now? Like have I processed what um like taken to prayer what happened after I vented to someone, or do I just keep going back to it and being like, that wasn't enough. I need to keep thinking about it.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Well, and the key has to be too, are you able to um internally examine your intention? Because I think sometimes I struggle with this and I'm sure other people struggle with this. Like, I might think, well, it's just healthy venting. Like, I just need to get, I just need to process this. But really, that might not be my intention. I'm like, no, I need to be validated in this moment. So what you think is your intention isn't actually your intention. And so I kind of have a um a challenge if you don't really know how to distinguish it. Ask yourself, the person who you're talking to, what if they disagree with you? Like, what if they think you were in the wrong? Does that outrage you? Does that make you angry with the person you're talking to? And if it does, then your intention was to be validated. Your intention was to be told your your feelings are right, which is not what, which is not necessarily why we should be venting, because then it's not processing, it's needing validation. You know what I mean? So, like to see what your intention is is what if they don't agree with me? Am I okay with that? And if we're like, yeah, I'm okay if they don't agree with me because like I still feel like God has affirmed that, maybe he hasn't, but but maybe if God has affirmed that, then you really are just trying to process through it and love that person better as opposed to just having someone agree with your feeling.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I think another big thing that I can only speak for me, like I'm Italian and I get fired up and I get super passionate. How much between the interaction and the venting, can I give it a little space? Like, does the moment happen and then right away I seek out a friend or a sister and be like, I can't believe this just happened? And da-da-da-da-da. Like, am I coming right out of the emotion and right away seeking to like tell someone about this terrible thing I think that happened? Or can I like sit with it a little bit before I like seek someone out? Cause I think if our immediate thing is to seek someone out, like that might not always be healthy. Um, versus like sitting with it first and like being able to kind of come down from the moment and then like seek someone out. I think our intentions are more um defined in those moments versus just acting out of like the impulse of the emotion.
SPEAKER_00So maybe the first person we vent to should be the Lord. I I think I see a lot of truth in what you're saying, and the person we vent to needs to be someone we can trust. And Kara, I really like how you articulated it. What if they we need to be okay with them not agreeing with our venting? Right. You know. But I think as people that need to vent, sometimes I think there's a value in those kind of friendships that we should strive to have in our life where we can in a healthy way vent and it doesn't go beyond that. And so like I think of oftentimes Kara's the first person I vent to, other than the Lord, of course. And Kara has a habit of showing me the positive or the benefit of the doubt and like like turning it around and like, you know, well, maybe it's this, and it's like, oh, you know, you need those kind of friendships in your life, you know. And it starts by being that kind of a friend to others.
SPEAKER_01Being that friend, but also like you said, you know, maybe the Lord should be the first person you vent to. I feel like a lot of times that isn't my first reaction um is to go take it to prayer that I'm struggling with. It is very much to go and like either talk to BJ, talk to Fred, like talk to somebody I trust. And and half the time, maybe more half the time, I'm just wanting them to agree with me. So, you know, in sharing this, like I know my intentions are not always pure. And so it's not always healthy venting. But even in those situations where they might agree with me, they're like, Oh yeah, I can't believe that happened, blah, blah. I'll go take it to prayer after that. And God will be like, What are you doing? Like, why do you, why do you need to share this? And so it's God who I should have gone to first, who's helping to calm me down and like center me back to like what we're striving for in holiness and charity towards other people.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I think like, not to let ourselves off the hook, but like in a place of gentleness, I think like 90% of the time we'll probably go to someone first because yeah, just of like our vocations or where we are, or like we are around people or um we desire relationship, yeah, interaction. But I think it's like important to say, like, at some point I have to like bring God into this to have him speak truth as well. So whether I process first with like my spouse or a friend, but like, can I also allow him into this space too? Um, and I know I don't know about the listeners out there, but I know in the past, or even sometimes now, like I might just have a friendship that's purely like that's the foundation where it's like we just vent. And that can be really toxic um and hard to like break if it's like the only reason we come to each other is like to complain about people. Um, so I think like Fred, how you're sharing how what Cara does for you is like when you have friendships that are are real, grounded like holistically, then someone can speak in opposition into that moment and we can trust it because it's not just one-sided all the time. It's not just like kind of like a friendship of use, like I only come to you when I want to complain about someone. And then you can like affirm that and then you take your turn. Come, well, this also happened to me today, you know.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Kind of with this. Okay. So if we can lump like we've established, you know, between gossiping and venting within venting, what's the difference between just like processing and getting it off your chest versus crossing that line and being uncharitable? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think it's how I describe the person, at least for me. Like, am I attacking their character? Am I, can I be factual and like say, like, okay, in this moment, this person acted like this towards me versus like she's judgmental and she always like speaking in very like general, like kind of like wanting to like one, do I name the who the person is? Can I be okay with like not saying who it is? Um, like how I guess it's like how much do you want to kind of bring them down almost, you know? Yeah. Versus like is the intention to tarnish their character almost. Right. And to like, yeah, have someone see the negative in them versus like, I'm gonna try to find something positive about this person, or would I be okay if the person tried to speak positivity into it? But I think, yeah, when you're trying to like somehow diminish like the virtue of the person or their integrity, I think that's when like when you're trying to attack someone verbally in the process versus like, okay, this was a moment of like weakness for them, and I recognize that's not like who they are. But if I'm like taking this negativity and like naming them as that, and then wanting to like spread that and be like, don't make sure you don't talk to her because she's just you know a backstabber or this or that, you know. Right.
SPEAKER_00I I think what you just said is exactly what we tend to do. We label people with those negative things rather than their dignity as people, and that's what we see first, and we don't see past that. Well, he's also a human being with real hurts, real struggles. He's been through a lot, and we don't extend that same grace that we we expect ourselves. You know, I I I don't know. I that's something I'm I've been kind of been in the forefront of my mind and heart lately, is just that struggle with but for the grace, so go so go I. I mean, that's the dignity of the human person. And just because I'm at a particular place or think I'm in a particular way or have particular thoughts, it doesn't mean that I'm somehow better or more loved or more special than another person, whether they completely disagree with me or not. I don't know. I I I guess kind of what I'm getting is what do what world is evaluating the intentions of others and our practice of empathy, like how does that shape our own interior life?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Someone once told me this a long time ago, and I was like, that's stupid. I don't agree with it. But the more I've sat with it and the more I've grown as a person, I'm like, and the more I've done like spiritual direction, I'm like, this is pretty spot on. Often, something in, and you've probably heard this often, something in another person that you struggle with or makes you angry is something actually that it's a trait that you have that you have a hard time with with yourself loving yourself in. And I think the empathy we can have with people is like, can we look at, because at least for me, most venting or gossiping happens because of like a negative encounter? Um, so it's like, can I take a minute to like evaluate the situation and like in a spiritual direction lens, like an indignation lens, to be able to say, like, what about that moment bothered me? Like, was it the tone of their voice? Was it what they said? Like, why did that bother me? Like, can I identify like ultimately what's causing this anger or frustration or hatred, like, or like that I feel the need to like explode and have to talk to someone about it? Because if I can identify that, most likely that might be something I'm struggling with with myself, or like someone inflicted a wound in that. So I think only out of that like self-reflection can we then maybe have empathy towards the other. Because we're humanizing things. We're we're humanizing ourselves and like recognizing our own, like their action hit a wound in me. And if I can recognize that, then maybe I can act empathetic, knowing, like, okay, there must be some wound in them that made them treat me this way.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I feel like this is something that I am striving to, I don't know, grow in this element of my interior life and my spirituality is just like, I know it's, you know, the the cheesy golden rule, but it's in the Bible, so it's not really. Um, but in Luke chapter six, treat others how you want to be treated. But that says treat others how you want to be treated. So the question that like I have is okay, but what if they don't treat you like that? Would you still treat them how you wish they treated you? And I think so often, you know, that's something that we struggle with. Like if somebody else disrespects us, you know, has anger towards us and we're unsure why, or gossips about us, like our reaction is to do the same to them. Um, whereas the challenge in our in holiness and what we're called to is no, we need to still treat them with love and dignity, even if you know that they're not doing the same for you um in their own life or publicly. Uh, we need to still be charitable towards them and love them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I feel like Jesus doesn't give us a choice.
SPEAKER_01No, he doesn't. I mean, we have we have free will. So he does, but no, he doesn't.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, yeah, yeah. Good point. Theologically, uh, correct me. Thank you. You're right. I mean, we have a choice. It's it's thy kingdom come, thy will be done, or my kingdom come, my will be done. We do have that choice, but his words are clear like love one another as I have loved you. And he uses the strongest word possible for that agape. Love your enemies and bless those who persecute you.
SPEAKER_01Right. He says, What good are you if you only love your friends? Even sinners love their friends. Right. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00At the heart of that kind of is the dignity of the human person and the dignity that God has given you. You you can't love God and not love people.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00You know?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I think the at least for me, the only way I've grown in this is by being able to see the woundedness in the other. So, like, I studied criminal justice um while I was in college, and you know, you hear of these like horrific crimes, and you know, these people who have done just terrible things. And then often like you read about their childhood and you're like, oh my gosh, like the amount of like trauma or abuse that happened in their life, and there's like this like quick movement of the heart towards like, oh my gosh, I feel so like it doesn't justify what they did, but you can like hurt people, hurt people. So it's like the only way that I can move towards this, like loving someone is almost like, can I see through the eyes of Christ? Can I be able to look beyond their imperfections and weaknesses? And for me, like the only thing I found that moves me the most is like, can I recognize their woundedness and want to like move towards compassion towards them?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I like that um hurt people hurt people. And I think every single person has experienced hurt in their life. Yeah. Um, so in order to like stop that cycle and have charity, you know, growing in the world, we have to step outside of our hurt or see the good in the hurt that we experienced and what God wanted to bring out of it so that we can stop and not keep that cycle of hurt going towards other people.
SPEAKER_03For me, it's almost it's almost been this two-step process. Well, maybe three. Calm down. Calm down. Can I reflect and maybe through this like venting processing why this bothered me? Like almost like make it like um internal first. Like they did this and it bothered me. Why? Like, can I just take them out of the situation, just look at the situation? And then in that, can I identify like why this interaction bothered me that I want to now speak ill of them? And once I can identify that, then I can almost look back at them with love and say, like, I wonder why they did this. Like, what is maybe happening in their life, and like be able to now look back on them with love. But it's like I almost first have to tend to myself and let Jesus tend to myself to know like this inflicted something in me and now I want to inflict it on them. But if I can tend to my wound first, then I can like seek out what is their wound and almost like want to love them in that now.
SPEAKER_00What role do you think our willingness to be vulnerable and authentic with each other plays in and helping each other to understand better this dignity of the human person?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, big role. Um I feel like the vulnerability and authenticity requires a level of like responsibility for myself and my actions to be able to say like you did this and it hurt me, but I I need to like claim that hurt and know like what that is. Um and like to be vulnerable with you means I'm gonna like take responsibility of how I'm gonna like interact with you and like what I'm gonna share. That I'm not just like blaming everything on you, but realizing like okay, what what am I bringing into this relationship or friendship or encounter or acquaintance? You know what I mean? Like that it's not just one-sided, like they did this to me, or I'm gonna now treat them this way, but like, can I come with all of myself and like have the ability to take ownership of my actions and my wounds? And um, and in that, then like I think there's a level of like I can be vulnerable with, you know. But I think there has to be like an element of safety. Like we can't be vulnerable if we don't feel safe. That's what I was gonna say. Yeah, people will use that against us, yeah. So I think there is like healthy boundaries that come in place. Like if someone just continues to like treat someone badly, like it's okay to have the recognition of like, okay, this is where they're at right now. Um versus like, yeah, I'm just gonna like let myself be treated this way all the time. Versus like, okay, I can see they were triggered or I did something and like I want to be able to take responsibility of that. Um, but in the vulnerability that I'm sharing, like this affected me, like that whole like you I statements. If you're like having an interaction with someone, I think vulnerability is real important because I yeah, I just had spiritual direction for myself. This is funny. I was like, vulnerability breeds vulnerability. I think if I'm can be vulnerable with someone, it somehow disarms them. Right. Because I'm not coming to attack, I'm literally just exposing. So like in that, it somehow brings barriers down.
SPEAKER_01I think with that though, like if you make the um mistake, I guess, of being vulnerable, someone you might not have that trust built up, and then like that vulnerability is taken advantage of or shared, or you know, like those personal things are brought to other people, like there's more hurt in that because you've opened yourself up completely, and then that person like went and shared that. So there has to be that trust in order for you to do that. But I agree, like I think it it disarms the person because they're like, Oh, you know, now I am getting to see a little bit more of like why they are the way that they are, because they're willing to share this with me. And like those encounters, especially if it's done with people who aren't gonna take advantage of that, like that's what brings strong holy friendships about.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I think that's where like the importance of prayer comes in, is like a question I've been asking myself more as I discern things in daily life, is like, is there an invitation in here from God? Because maybe I'm having a conversation he's not asking me to have, or maybe I'm not having a conversation he's inviting me into. So I think like there's a level of discernment, like, like you're saying, like to know like what are the places to be vulnerable, how to do that, or maybe is it just loving on them, or just um having an honest dialogue, or maybe there isn't a dialogue that needs to happen. Often if you move through an emotion and let things settle, a lot of the times it will subside and you don't need to confront someone, but sometimes you do after. But it's better when you're kind of removed from the emotion than like doing it in the moment. And that's hopefully what the venting does is helps like remove you from that emotion so you can see more clearly.
SPEAKER_01I'm curious because we're talking about trust, like that's something that Fred and I talk a lot about, where you have to have trust within relationships, but also trust within like organizations. We got we had an awesome opportunity to go and do a leadership training for secular businesses, and that was one of the things, like you have to have an environment of trust. And so I'm curious, just like we're talking more about interior person or um interior growth and interior interior spirituality, but I think how you treat a uh a person and recognizing the dignity of the person, like the church should be the place that's doing that and is modeling that for the world. And I guess I'm curious if you think that's actually happening. Like, is the church the model for how to treat people?
SPEAKER_03I think it's the model, but it's human. And so, like, can we come to an acceptance that we're all like broken people?
SPEAKER_01That's a very holy response because my immediate response is no. And so the fact that you're like, like, we're we're human. It's like, yes, okay, thank you. Yeah. Children, even in that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think there are some healthier parts perhaps in the church, and then there's some that are are not, you know, right now in in brokenness. And so, like, I think yeah, it depends a lot on the like where or what's going on. So I I feel like overall it should be the model, yes, and there's ways where it is. But yeah, I think our society right now in general is like really broken, and so that's gonna impact the little sea church, but like the big sea church, like Christ himself, like of course, that's gonna be the model, what we strive for. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Karen, I think it's only where we as individuals, it's only where we look like Jesus in word and thought, and deed, that's where we're actually the church is actually doing it. Right. When they're actually a model. Yeah. How to what degree are we abiding? It's GK Chesterton. Um, the problem with the world is me. You know, I'm the problem.
SPEAKER_01We should all say that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I like how you point that out too, because I I think part of recognizing, at least practically I have no doctrine to point to here, but I think it's true. Recognizing the the dignity of the human person is also ri recognizing the fact that they fall short too. They're wounded just like I am. They have their own struggles, and so I'm gonna extend the same mercy that I would want because we we we're all struggling to find our way. We all fall short, we all need his grace. And that's that's part of the dignity of the human person too. I think, you know, we we need his grace, we need his help. Again, but for the grace of God, so go I.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, and he says, you know, you're in this world, but you're not of this world. So I I like how you recognize uh the church is perfect in how God created it. The big C church. But the members of the church, the body of Christ, were not perfect. We are sinners, so there's going to be um, there's going to be a lot of room to grow in how we represent, you know, her perfect church, you know, into the world. So I like how you recognize that. It's a much holier response than mine. So for challenging me.
SPEAKER_03No, I think it's good. And I think sometimes like we will expect that from outside the church, but sometimes there's more brokenness in in the church than there is outside in a lot of ways. And so, like, I think that can be doubly harming because you weren't like expecting that and you're like, this shouldn't be happening. Um, but people are people, and so um, it's not an excuse or a justification, but it's just again, can I reverence the poverty in someone else and and know that um the Lord is like asking me to love um in places that are hard. But I think in order to do that, I have to tend to my own wounds, whether it's been inflicted by that moment or it was inflicted before. But he's not asking us to disregard our woundedness to love someone. Like I think he wants us to be able to look at that first so that we can love someone.
SPEAKER_01Um, one of our favorite chapters in the I Believe in Love is the fraternal charity one. And it really gets at a lot of what we've been talking about, like how a lot of the people who have been placed in our life or experiences we've gone through, like they're meant to mortify you. They're meant to help you like die to yourself, help you grow in holiness in order to help you get to heaven. So I feel like even in those situations where if you're if you work for the church, like you see a lot of brokenness in the church, and you know, there is hope and and like we want to strive to help renew it and help fix it. Um, but Fred always says, like, if you work for the church, you have to have a strong enough faith not to lose it because you are in the midst of the trenches. Like sometimes you see, you see the hardships and you see the hurt. And I think uh in in terms of like fraternal charity, that's supposed to help you. It's supposed to help you be able to find the good in a situation, to love better, to deny yourself, to like get to heaven. So it's really up to us in our free will, which we do have, Fred. It's really up to us in our free will how we choose to respond to those situations that we see.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I think like love always has mercy in it, and mercy always has love. Like they they can't be separated. And so, like, even that, like going back to like gossiping and all that stuff, and or just like hurt, like ultimately can we come to a place of of mercy? And I think that's only by God's grace can we do that. And it's only with his love. Like, I can't love people like that. So I have to like run to him in those broken moments so that I can love them with his love, which is always gonna be merciful. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And mercy is attracted to misery. So even in our hardships and our weakness, like he all the more wants to speak into that and offer his mercy up to us. So even if there's something we're struggling with, he's like, turn to me, I'm right here. Like, um, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's something that, you know, speaking of dignity of human dignity of the human person, that the ability to extend mercy, that's something that's unique about human beings and all of creation. Yeah. Like a hungry bear is not going to give mercy to the deer that he's about to chow on or whatever.
SPEAKER_01I mean, they probably don't hold don't harbor any like resentment like we do too. Right. But yeah, I mean that it it's a unique beauty that gets to purify our soul. Right. That we get to be able to offer mercy just like Christ offers mercy. Yeah. Well, I know we didn't get to uh all of the stuff that we wanted to talk about in in terms of how we treat other people, how we love other people, but we are out of time. So um, sister, we're very grateful that you were willing to come and talk. And I think your perspective is always a unique one and a holy one. So we're very grateful for you.
SPEAKER_00Maybe we'll have to have Sister on for a part two with this one.
SPEAKER_01Well, you're always welcome. You're like a very I guess. I love it.
SPEAKER_03Well, thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you once again for listening to Draw Near with Fred and Kara. Draw near is brought to you locally by Cybercloak.tech, providing confidence and cybersecurity for small businesses. Learn more by contacting Cybercloak.tech's CTO and founder, Steve Gretken, at 712 220 3001. We now return to regularly scheduled programming here on Siouxland Catholic Radio.