007: Survive and Advance: Brandon Hayes on Getting Through Divorce One Day at a Time

Podcast Show Notes: Surviving Divorce Together with Brandon

Episode Overview

Host Gabe McManus sits down with Brandon, a certified financial planner who went through his own divorce at 50 with four kids. This one's different. It's two dads who've walked the same road, comparing notes on guilt, grief, and finding their footing again. Brandon shares the mantra that got him through and why hiding his emotions from his kids is his biggest regret.

Key Topics Discussed

The Day Everything Changed

• That kitchen table conversation you dread and can't sugarcoat
• Brandon's four kids were 9, 7, 7, and 5 when it happened
• The overwhelming fear of doing it alone
• Thanking God all the way home after getting the kids on the school bus

What Nobody Tells You

• The weight loss, the depression, the year it took to let go
• Why Brandon regrets hiding his emotions from his kids
• "They didn't get to see me vulnerable. I wish they had."
• Kids mimic what they see. Stiff upper lip isn't always the lesson you want to teach.

The Guilt Trap

• Wanting to say yes to everything so the kids don't miss out
• "We all need just a yes right now. We'll untangle it later."
• Drawing the line: each kid gets one activity
• The $700 Lego Titanic story

Survive and Advance

• Brandon's March Madness mantra for getting through
• "Let's not worry about growing. Let's just survive this season."
• If you're putting away 10% for retirement during this phase, you're winning
• There will be time to build later

A New Kind of Normal

• The empty chair at the dinner table and why he bought new furniture
• Creating routines and consistency as a single parent
• "It's not ever going to be normal. But there's a new normal that's also satisfying."

What Suffering Teaches You

• Romans on suffering, perseverance, character, and hope
• Kids showing compassion because of what they've been through
• "You had a great life before. You had a great life during. You'll have a great life after."

Dating After Divorce

• Each child launches their own relationship rocket on their own terms
• "This is not your mom. This will never be your mom."
• Giving kids space to feel what they feel

Memorable Quotes

"I would just thank God all the way home. I did it. That sounds so stupid, so small. But when you're doing it by yourself, the self-doubt is huge."

"We're mourning the loss of the childhood we thought they would have. They're just happy to have us still in their lives."

"Survive and advance. One day at a time. I had that taped to my mirror."

"You had a great life before him. You had a great life with him. You're going to have a great life after him."

"If you're putting 10% away during this phase, you're winning. There'll be time to do 20% later."

Key Takeaways

1. Give yourself grace. This is about surviving, not thriving. Growth comes later.
2. Let your kids see you struggle. Hiding emotion teaches them to hide theirs.
3. Don't let divorce taint the good memories. Your kids need to hear you celebrate what was.

About the Guest

Brandon is a certified financial planner with 25 years of experience who went through his own divorce at 50 with four children. He brings both professional expertise and personal experience to the conversation.

https://www.ameripriseadvisors.com/brandon.l.hayes/

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube
 Connect: gabe@moreclientsmorefun.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to Starting Over at 50, the podcast for those navigating the financial restart of their lives while building something meaningful for the people they love most. I'm your host, Gabe McMenus. I'm 53, a father of three teenage daughters, and like many of you listening, I'm figuring out how to rebuild financial security after divorce while still creating the experiences and opportunities I want for my kids. This isn't a show about perfect financial plans, but it is about the real questions we're sometimes afraid to ask out loud. Will I have to work until I die? How do I prioritize when everything feels urgent? Am I making a mistake choosing experiences with my kids now over saving more for retirement? Each episode I sit down with financial advisors and other experts who understand what we're going through. Because let's be honest, starting over at 50, while trying to pay for private school, college, aging parents, and maybe still have a life, that requires more than just good advice. It requires someone who gets it. My guest today is Brandon Hayes, a CFP and the founder of Compass Financial Group in Evansville, Indiana. Brandon works with people navigating some of life's hardest financial transitions, including widows and people starting over after going through a divorce. And when it comes to divorce, Brandon isn't just advising from a textbook, he's been through it himself, which changes everything about how he shows up for the people that he serves. Brandon, welcome to the podcast. Good to see you today. How are you doing? You too, Gabe. Yeah. Brandon, you know, we have something in common that is not the easiest experience, but we both got separated around the same time and then divorced just a few months later, I think. And we both have kids. And so, you know, we share this is a unique experience, not something that I ever expected. How about you?

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yeah, no, I mean, I don't think you ever, you know, uh you never wake up and and see yourself going, oh, I can't wait to be 50 with kids and divorced. Yeah, no, didn't plan on that at all. You don't you don't see your life uh being being uh 50 and divorced with kids, you know, it's not was it's not in the pl wasn't in the plans.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Right, no, it wasn't in mine either. And now I find myself having to sort through so many different things. It's you know, I can't I can't even plan for it. And so because it's a complete restart financially and emotionally, and being a parent on my own, and so I I see my kids half the time, how have you navigated that to make it work for you and for your kids?

SPEAKER_00 2:35

You know, that's a great question. I mean, there's so much in there, and hopefully we'll cover a lot of it today. But I think, you know, um first, obviously starting out, you know, after you know, when the separation occurs, yeah, is um, you know, regardless of who was at fault or why it happened, you know, when the kids are involved, it's just there the the the pain you feel for them, yeah. And the and the concern and worry that you have about how this affects them and how it is affecting them, I think overshadows anything, emotions that I was going through. Um, you know, and so you know, and again, I can remember um literally, you know, praying to God like God, you know, I don't know how to get them ready for school and to get them on the bus because I have four of them. And at that time they were uh what nine, seven, seven, and uh five. Yeah. And I'm thinking, I mean, what I I'm I'm just the concept of like getting them fed, getting them dressed, getting their school stuff together, getting them a snack for school, getting them to the bus. Um all of that seems so, so overwhelming um to do by myself. Um, you know, and I can remember every time I would get on, get them on the bus and they left for school, I would just thank God all the way home, driving back home. I did it. I you know, I'm like, thank God I did it, you know. Right. Think, well, that's so stupid, that's so small. And I'm like, yeah, but when you're doing it by yourself and you're thinking, I God, I never thought I'd be doing this on my own. And and you know, can I even can can I do this, you know, by myself? The self-doubt is is you know huge, huge for me. How about you?

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Yeah, that's you know, when I got separated, I didn't have a place to stay. So my mom lives nearby and I stayed with her for a month. And it was just the strangest experience because my kids were my mission, and they are my mission, and to only get to go and have a meal with them, and we'd be sitting in the grocery store parking lot and eating a Domino's pizza, passing around napkins and you know, with a with a bottle of soda. And I thought I've gotta, I've gotta make changes, I've got to get restarted. And so within a month, I bought a home, and which was challenging, you know, when you're separated and not divorced at that point. And I remember my youngest, she came in the first day, and in the kitchen there's this garden window right past the sink, and she climbed up, she was like fifth grade at the time, she climbed up into the garden window, and she had her stuffed animal on a pillow, and she laid there and she looked around and she said, I like it here. I think this can be home. And I just thought, okay, that's that's what we'll build on.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Totally, totally unexpected. I wasn't prepared for it, but we'll go from here.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

You know, and I think this this though for me, the same the the thing that causes the most angst, you know, the hurt, the pain is about your kids are also the same things that give you that huge amount of grace and confidence, right? Because it's like they don't they don't expect perfection. They didn't they they didn't have the uh the expectations that we had about how they were gonna grow up, right? And what they don't know what they're not gonna have or have because it's their childhood, right? And we're we're mourning the loss of the childhood we thought they would have, and they're just uh you know happy to have uh you know us still in their lives and and life just is happening, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Right, right. That's an interesting way to look at it.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, they don't know you know, they don't know any different, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Still just a gut-wrenching time in in life. That that that day, it's not the divorce, it was the separation to go in and sit down at the kitchen table and have that conversation that yeah, that one gets seared into your uh mind forever. Just horrible.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

It's horrible, yeah. It is, yeah, it's horrible. Yeah, there's no there's nothing good about you know telling the kids that you're gonna be, you know, getting a divorce. No, uh, their reactions and you know, um, yeah, I mean, it's like you you anticipate that conversation and you dread it, and it'll make you sick to your stomach, you know, and and then having it is bad. It's not one of those that, oh, it wasn't as bad as I did should be. It was worse. It was worse, it was as bad or worse. Right. I mean, there's just yeah, that you know, some most things in life you fear don't turn out as bad. That one does. That that one definitely, you're right. There's no good way to hide from the, you know, there's no sugar coating that you really can't impact uh that everybody has on that one.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

And that it does, it brings a lot of guilt and indecision making that you know I have to think about because I still, you know, they were they weren't all quite to high school yet when that happened. Now they're in high school. My oldest is gonna go off to college next year. Yeah. But I didn't want separation and divorce to mean for them that they all of a sudden would miss out on things that they would have had had our family stayed together. That's right. And so it puts pressure on me because I definitely want to make sure that when it comes to a school trip and there's extra money that I can afford it, and that I'm not saying no to things and yet still saying no when it's the right thing to do, and not letting the guilt just carry me into like do whatever you want. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yeah. No, yeah. And that's a tightrope that you know, I think, especially first when it first happens that first year or so is of the separation and all of that, is you do just err on the side of I'm just we're just gonna put a band-aid on it, even if it's not the right band-aid, right? You just like, hey, let's let's just we'll say yes a lot here, because we all need just a yes. Right. We just need a yes right now. I know that's right. Yeah. And when when when dad's got his feet back under him a little bit more emotionally, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:57

And that's what what my hope is because I thought if I'm struggling now, that's okay. Yeah, I can do it right now.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

But that I I do want to move towards a light at the end of the tunnel and to know that there's a future for me, for them, for things that we can do together that I'm building towards. Yeah. So Brandon.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Let me ask you this, Gabe. Did you have um, and and again, I don't know how the divorce transpired or separation transpired, but uh what did you go through a period of weight loss and depression and grief, like uh uh overwhelming, or or were were you physically, mentally, were you where were you at with it all? How did it how did it impact you?

SPEAKER_01 9:41

I don't I definitely didn't lose weight. I think it was it was just being busy at work. At the time I worked at the school where my kids uh were attending, and so you know that was that was a good part of it, that I would still see them even on the days that I didn't have them. And then looking forward to those times when we were together, and then I think it was about maximizing that uh you know, before uh we could have time together and I'd just be sitting on the couch and I'd be missing things, but I think it made it feel so much more important that when we had time together, making dinner or uh watching a show together, whatever it was, or we just go out and cruise and listen to music, and it just made me really want to focus in on just not missing out on any of those moments that I had with my kids.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yeah, no, I can appreciate that. It does, it takes you you become very intentional about the time you have together, where before when you were one unit, you you took took for granted that time, right? In a way, and once you you you realize, oh my gosh, I I'm gonna miss a lot of stuff and time with them, you yeah, you become very intentional about the time that you do spend, you know, spending with them. Um yeah. I in fact I probably went even overboard on that, being intentional, you know, early on because of my own fear of missing out, you know, missing out on parts of their lives and not being present and you know, trying to make up for that gap, you know, make up for that time away from them.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

It brings a lot of perspective. So, Brendan, tell me about your experience.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Yeah, I'm one of those when I get overwhelmed and stressed and like that, Rand, I'm my appetite shuts down. So I lost a lot of weight, probably lost 10, 15 pounds, uh, that I didn't have that much to lose to begin with. And so yeah, so you know, I bet it took a it probably took a good year or so for me to actually get my appetite back. Oh yeah, that's rough.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Yeah, and at that year mark, what happened that started just leading you back to normal.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

You know, it took me a year to let go. Yeah. It took me a year to let go. And uh and and to finally, uh, you know, I prayed to God, like, hey, if this is if there's gonna be any reconciliation, you know, please let it happen and and all of that. And it really took a year for me to finally realize, okay, it's this, it's over. You know, that there is no reconciliation gonna occur.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Uh, and that to accept that. And then so once I accepted it, um, then you know, I was able to start moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Right. And what about your kids during that time frame? What did they see? Did they know that you were struggling? Did they how did they handle it?

SPEAKER_00 12:34

They did. I think my oldest, you know, my oldest saw me struggling, even though I hid a lot of my struggles from them. Yeah. Um, and and and that's actually one of the regrets I have today, uh, is when I look back over the last four years from or you know, from when from separation till today, is that I didn't they didn't get to see me be really vulnerable. Right. Uh, and I regret that because they should have seen me more vulnerable and broken than I was. And because I almost gave them a false sense of this is when you go through hard things, don't show a lot of emotion. Act like things are normal. Right. You know, and I regret that. I wish I would have, you know, I let them see me more broken, more heartbroken, more upset than I that I was. I I hid that from them and you know, expressed that away from them and basically kind of try to keep a stip upper lip and try to make things as normal as possible when they were around. Um and I regret that because I, you know, they mimic some of those behaviors, which is not healthy for children or adults to do.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Yeah. I uh yeah, I definitely understand that there's you know the time that it gets me because I mean I understand I was I'm trying to do the same thing, hold it together, be strong, show them that we are gonna be fine. But it's it's little things on the TV in the house that'll flash pictures from oh yeah their childhoods. And sometimes we're sitting there in between shows, and those come up, and I see them as little kids, and it breaks my heart. And you know, tears start coming, and they're looking at me like, well, my youngest, she makes fun of me. She's like, Dad, are you? And I was like, No, no, I'm fine, I'm fine. But you know, I think they they see little moments of that where it just that, you know, I miss that time in their life.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah, absolutely. And I wish I had shared more of that because my kids were like, Dad, you don't ever cry. And I'm like, you know, you're not sad about this. I'm like, you know, and I'm so I'm having to explain, yeah, I am. I'm you know, I'm just not crying in front of you. Um, you know, because they're upset, they're crying, you know, they're they're having these big emotions with it, and they're seeing me not have emotions, and yet they're hearing me tell them how I feel, but they're not seeing me, you know, really upset, you know, in the way that they are. Yeah. So, you know, I create unfortunately, I think I created a disconnect um from what you know how you know I was feeling to what I was showing them. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

So I'm going on, it's been about two years. Is that the same for you that you've been officially divorced?

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Yeah, two years of officially divorced, you know, and there was two years before that where it was, you know, separated and working through all kinds of legal stuff and all that.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Right. And so, okay, two years out. Yeah. Brandon, where are you at now? How are you feeling? Like, what's your your hope for the future?

SPEAKER_00 15:31

So it so let me so I'll I'll I'll clarify that because you know, it was almost from when I was to serve divorce papers, yeah, was when I felt like I got divorced. From that moment till now, like, so it's like legally when I got a divorce was just almost another was like a another day. Right. And and so like you know, is so from when you know the marriage I felt like ended uh well even before the the actual divorce papers, because I you know, she I was served divorce papers, and um so for me, I feel like I've almost been divorced four years. I see, yeah. Yeah, you know, uh because it's kind of when it started, you know, I had to r start a new life.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Um, and so you know, from going to the days of you know, I can't do this with the kids, I don't know how to do this, to today I'm like, I've got this. You know, I don't I don't fret about getting them ready for the school bus. And right, you can do it. I can do it. Yeah, you know, and every once in a while I still say, you know, I thank God and when I'm driving back from the school bus thinking, you know, okay, you know, I I'm not gonna take this for granted because I remember how hard it was for me in the beginning. Right. All the way to thinking, like, how am I gonna, what am I gonna have for dinner tonight for them? To how you know, how's how's this work? How am I gonna eat? I don't have time to go to the grocery store and meal plan and all that, you know. Yeah, just the basics to, you know, thinking about, you know, well, are they gonna have enough clothes to wear for this school year? Uh, you know, stuff like that, which was always off on my periphery, you know, that all of a sudden become my responsibility. Yeah. And so is do some of those things still stress me? Yes. Are they do they feel overwhelming? No. No, not today. You know, today I'm like, okay, uh, I've, you know, I've been through enough seasons of doing it on my own and and learning and failing and learning and failing, and not failing enough that anybody was traumatized or dipped about, right? To kind of create that new, that new way of living, you know, that new family dynamics, you know, those new routines that families have, you know, is creating those routines, you know, by yourself as a parent and with the kids. Yeah. And you know, because I think that's where there's comfort. The comfort's in the routine, the consistency, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

I think uh and that it it shows how resilient kids can be. That I know that I'd seen that with friends when they got divorced and the kids when they were little, but that they bounced back. Oh, yeah. And it's hard to see just that happened in my own family. Yeah, but the kids really did. They would say these things that would just because I would do check-ins with them and just say, How are you doing? You know, with everything that's happened. And they would they would come back, and this blew me away, Brandon, but they would come back and uh turned around and say, Dad, we just want to make sure you're okay. Yeah. And I was like, I mean, talk about grateful that you know, grateful for just those, you know, sweet, innocent thoughts that were just wanting to make sure that their parents were all right and not really thinking about themselves.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yeah, that's huge. Yeah. Yeah, you you've obviously got better kids than me. Mine were not concerned about my well-being. I think they probab they probably were, they just didn't express it that way. Right, exactly. Mine were a lot younger, so which means they're more selfish, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Right. Yeah, exactly. All right. That's that's so what's okay. So now now things better routines.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

What are the challenges that still come up now, now that they're getting older, and what are you facing, Justin? Being a single parent at this point.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Yeah, I think you know, I mean, my kid, you know, like you, you don't want your kids to miss out on stuff. You don't want to be like, oh, we you can't do dance now because your mom and I don't live together, and we can't run you back and forth on time. And you know, I've got four kids, and the boys do baseball and basketball and soccer and track, and the girls do dance year-round, you know, three days a week and four days a week. And you know, you don't want them to miss out on that stuff. Um, so you know, it's it's you sometimes you got to draw the line and go, okay, we just can't do that. Each of you get one thing to do, right? You know, one thing to do, and at this level, because there's only so much, you know, cap possibility to get everywhere where they need to go. Um, and so from that standpoint, you know, my ex-wife and I have been successful in allowing them to continue to do the activities and then not miss out on stuff. Yeah, that's good. And not miss out on things that would have happened whether we were together or not, you know, going on vacations, you know, um, been able to still do that. Maybe not as many, right, but you know, definitely uh, you know, not missing some of those things where there's bonding moments, the holiday time and stuff like that. Yeah, it's different, but still meaningful. Yeah, that hasn't changed. So I'm I'm so thankful for that. I think a lot of those fears early on about how this can never be normal again, and it's not ever going to be normal, but there is a new normal that develops that's that's also very satisfying, rewarding, and healthy.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Yeah, no, that's great. I I there was I didn't want my kids, I don't want my kids to miss out on things too. Yeah, but it's it's definitely choices because for instance, my oldest, I had told them a few years back because I think one of their cousins was graduating from high school, and their dad took them on a driving trip across America, and then their mom took them to Europe. And I thought, I want to do that, I want to take you know this memorable experience. And so we had talked about it, and now here we are, it's her senior year, and so we've had on the books to go to Europe together. And uh she she paid for almost half of what we're we're trying to do it as inexpensively as possible. But you know, there's definitely sacrifices involved because you know, I I can't I can't do everything financially. But I thought I don't want to miss this time. That's right. I want to make sure that when we look back, this is one of those things that that I just I can't, you know, if I if I have to work a year longer, I'll do it.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Yeah, you don't want to you don't want to look back with regret. No, I don't. You don't want to look back and go, man, I should have taken them on that trip. I was worried about finances and I didn't go. Yeah, you're gonna regret that. You're not gonna regret going, you know what? Even if I had to put it on the credit card, I'll never regret that money I spent. Because you know, the credit card will get paid back. The trip to Europe may never have, you know, that memories of in Europe with your daughter, you know, will be invaluable.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Yeah, and just the planning it and the the fact that she's gonna spend her spring break with her dad. That's cool. Yeah, I couldn't miss out on that one. Yeah, absolutely. I had to make sure.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

If your daughter wants to hang out with you on spring break at 18, you're doing something well.

unknown 22:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah. Well, I just I showed her a lot of food pictures from the places we're gonna go, and so we're both excited about that. You know, from markets, it's like inexpensive. Well, I don't know if it's inexpensive, but it's not like fancy restaurants, but it's gonna be, you know, eating our way across a few countries. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Eat your way through Europe. That'll be fun.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Is I wanted to ask, you know, with financial decisions, I mean, that's something that that I'm definitely thinking about all the time. Yeah. And so balancing it out and making sure that I'm not I don't want to go on my credit cards. I paid off my credit cards before I got divorced.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

And it took a couple of years because I'd carried some debt for a long time and I thought I never want to go back. And now I'm divorced, I've got all these extra expenses and paying alimony and paying for uh the kids' tuition. Yeah. And so that's one of those things, Brandon. What would you say? Like, how should I think differently about you know prioritizing things just so I'm not, you know, driving myself back into debt?

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Yeah. You know, I'm a certified financial planner, so me, you know, my I I've worked with divorcees and people going through divorce before I experienced it. So I have an advantage of actually, you know, I've lived in that financial space for 25 years. And so it wasn't that I I knew what it looked like, you know, I knew kind of the realities of it. And that's the difficulty because you're basically a single parent, right? And you know, one of the things I've come to really appreciate that I not until I experienced it did I have a full appreciation is you know, you hear single moms or single dads doing it on their own. And man, I I never gave them the grace. Not that I didn't give them grace, but I didn't have the empathy for them that I do today. Right. The emotional struggles. Uh, my girlfriend that I have, I mean, she's basically has her kids joint custody. Uh, and I get to see firsthand, you know, financially the her struggles and what she, you know, what what she goes through and which are different than for me. Um, you know, and I to me it's one of those things is it's hey, let's just survive this time while the kids are at home financially. Yeah, let's not worry about growing, let's just survive. Right. There'll be time, there'll be time later to to to try to grow back and and build for the future, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

That's good because that gives me a little bit of grace that if I'm not fully thinking about the future today, there's still time to do it. I'm not like I'm not gonna go back. Yeah, but that a little grace for today to move forward.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Absolutely. I mean, even with my clients that have kids and are married, I would I'm like, look, when you're in that expensive phase of life, if you're putting 10% of your money away from retirement, yeah, that's enough.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Even if it doesn't meet your goal, right? But if you're like, hey, well, I can barely us like you know, if you can do 10%, you're winning.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Now, when you don't have kids at home, you need to be doing 20 plus. Right. You know, but but for that time period when life's it's most expensive, and and especially doing it alone with one income, is like, hey, it this this is about not going backwards, it's just holding on.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Holding on, that's what it feels like. Just hold on, right? Just hold on.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

You might have to hold on for a decade, you might have to hold on for 15 years.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Yeah, just hold on. Hold on, just hold on. I'm gonna keep holding on, Brandon, because you know, and I and I do, because everything is like, okay, I think I can take care of everything, and then something happens to a car or you know, something in the house. I'm like, I wasn't prepared for that. Yeah, no, I'd be prepared for bigger things, but yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Yeah, used to be, you know, I love that uh uh the March Madness theme thing. I took it on as when I was early in my divorce is survive in advance one day at a time. Let's survive today and advance till tomorrow. Yeah, perfect. I'm like survive in advance, march madness every day in my house. Exactly. Survive in advance, you know, to give myself grace.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Grace. No, I like that a lot because that's what it feels like that I I can be hard on myself. Uh you know, there's I I should be earning more, I should be able to do more for the kids, or when you know one of these trips comes up and to be able to, you know, buy the plane tickets. And you know, sometimes I feel like I need to say no because it's not it's not the responsible thing to do. And I also want to model good financial habits for them. And so they see that.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that's the tough, that's the that's the difficulty right there is balancing that. And you know what? I think, Gabe, that's a and this is my financial advisor hat on that.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Um, you know, I think that's a balance whether you're married or not. Right. You know, it you that that struggle between, you know, uh spending money and letting them have experiences, and yet at the same time establishing that financial responsibility and discipline that they see you have. Yeah. You know, and so that, you know, I it's more difficult when you're a one-income family, right? Um, because the the the weight of those decisions become heavier, right, versus being able to share that responsibility over two, you know. Um, so I think them seeing you struggle financially and or being making hard decisions and explaining why, I think that's where kids get a big sense of responsibility and understanding of the value of money.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

And Brandon, I try that, you know, when we drive, and if I drive them to school, a lot of times I'll bring up financial things. They they all have jobs, yeah. That's awesome. They love to spend money. And you know, it's I mean, food is so expensive. And I say, look, I I buy food for you. Yeah, you don't need to spend your money on that because it's just you're not gaining anything from it. They disagree completely and they want to go buy they oh, they want to go to boba, and yeah, I mean the drinks, it's like ten or eleven dollars each. And to me, I'm like, this is insane.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

But you know, I I try to more gently explain that to them because they don't listen to me.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

I still want boba.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

I didn't make any difference.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's an age-old challenge, right? How do you get how do you teach your kids financial responsibility? Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Have a whole separate podcast on that. Right. Well, and the one that got me was last summer. They were going off to camp, and I looked at the one of my daughters, uh, her debit card statement, and there was a $700 purchase at the Lego store.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

And I thought, this has to be fraud that they didn't buy $700. It's fraud. I reported.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

What would you buy?

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Exactly. I couldn't even imagine it being real's edition of something. It would have to be. And then they didn't have their phones at the camp, but they got them on one of the weekends and they got on the phone and they said, No, Dad, that was us. We bought together, the three of us, we pitched in and we bought this. This it was the Titanic. Right. And I said, You are taking that. You know, this is I try to be gentle, but until that, I was like, nope, you cannot spend $700 at the Lego store. Right. And they they fought me on that. They wanted to explain the reasoning. And yeah, I don't know, maybe I should have been more, I should have listened more, but I just thought this is that's insanity.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Right. At some point you gotta go put down the knife. Thank you. It is not, this is not a good decision. Your rationale is flawed. Right. Your brain is not fully developed. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Right. Let me save you right now from this decision.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Yes. I think there'll be like I think there'll be so much good. Uh that'll be a great story when they're older.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Well, you know, and they did return it, but then we were in the car. This is months later, and I was talking to them about the $700 Lego decision, and they all in unison, it was like, Dad, actually, that was a great decision. We would have enjoyed that. That would have been a family bonding moment. I thought, oh no. So will they ever get perspective and look back and say they will.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

It might take 25 years from now until they have their own kids. Right. Yeah, that's when it's gonna hit. Yeah, that's when it'll hit, and they'll be like, damn, dad was right. We tried to spend $700 and pool our money together, and he's like made us take it back. We're like thinking.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

And sometimes they spend on concerts. I mean, they spend several hundred, but at least that's an experience, not something that just goes away after you know a couple days of building.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Yeah, yeah, you and I know that those Legos will get shoved back in a back box after a few years, and you know, and and they'll just be stuff a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You next time you say, you know, if you want to make memories, let's pull our 700, your 700 and my money, and let's go on a heck of a weekend trip. Right, yes, make some memories, yeah. Let's make some memories, right? Let's go do something that's memorable and not just sit around and build Legos together, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Brandon, okay, what what has this experience taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Oh, how many, how many things, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Right, yeah. Where do you start with that?

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Yeah, you know, um, what's it taught me about myself? Um, well, one that you know is that, and I love uh the Bible passage of scripture in Romans, it's you know, there's blessings in suffering. And through suffering, uh the blessings of suffering is it builds perseverance, and through perseverance is built character. And through character is is hope is built. And I love that Bible verse because I think um that's what the biggest takeaway I've had is to recognize that through suffering, um, it's given me ability to persevere and go forward, even when things don't feel like it's they're it's capable. And that perseverance is building character in me to know that you know what, I can do this, you know, uh, by the grace of God. And that hope that gives me that hope that, you know, when life comes again, because it's gonna come again, and difficult things are gonna happen, is that uh is that you know, I can make it through it, and my kids can make it through it.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

You've been tested in the fire and you've come out the other side. And that I that we can all as a family look back on that and go on, hey, we did something really hard together. Right. And we came out the other side.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yeah. You know, that's that I like that a lot. And I think one of my kids said something about because the grandparents are divorced and we're divorced, and they said, Well, divorce runs in the family. And I said, It doesn't work like that. But hopefully, from this experience, it helps when you're deciding if you want to get married and who you want to marry, that helps you to think through it in new ways that you know that make for meaningful and lasting connections. And so, you know, I hope that coming through the fire has, you know, that good comes of you know what was bad at the time.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

I believe that. I I firmly believe that God uses everything for his good. Yeah, no doubt about that. Uh, and I, you know, I think uh we get to see that happen. I see that happening with my kids, um, you know, when they will they'll show compassion or empathy, somebody going through a hard time. And I'm like, I know they picked that up because in the last few years what they've gone through. Right. Uh, you know, and each of my children in a different way, you know, uh it's affecting them and giving them a perspective of like, you know, different's not bad.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

You know, different is sometimes just different.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Just different. Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. Yeah. There was my youngest, she was going uh going to Sunday school one few months ago, one day, and heard that there was an one of the kids in her class was just found out that their parents were getting divorced. And she went in, like, you know, I can help. I can help her to think about this and to be okay and to see that you know if she was going to be all right. And it made me feel so good because she was the one. I mean, it it it hit us all hard when when we told them, but you know, she was the youngest and so particularly hard. So the fact that she now saw it as a strength that she could help someone else, I thought that was you know beautiful that she could be there for for that other person.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Yeah, I mean, I think I believe that because I believe we're all called to share our experience and our strength and our hope with others from what we've gone through. Yeah, you know, to to help others get through it, you know. Um to go through it and not learn anything would be what a what a shame. Right. What what you know to go through it and become all become out of it worse off emotionally, spiritually, mentally, all of it. Um and I know people do, you know, and I feel fortunate that you know I've been able to grow out of it, grow from it. Um that you know, and I and I know you have too. Uh I what how would you describe some of the growth that you've seen in yourself?

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Well, I think starting with the things that that you were talking about, that you know, now I'm fully responsible when they're with me for getting them ready, making sure that they have what they need. And I'm terrible at some of that. That you know, I absolutely my ex, she was the one that handled the paperwork, she was the one that handled, you know, I can make a meal, I can do that. So I didn't worry about that. Yeah. But you know, some of the other things that, you know, they they need stuff for a project, and we're running out at 10 30 at night to go grab things, and I thought, this is not, these were not my strengths. But then realizing that, you know, like day by day we can just take care of what needs to get taken care of. Yeah. And then, you know, like the decision making on meals. I mean, that's another that goes back to like the financial side because it's easy to say Chipotle again, kids. I mean, are we gonna get dominoes tonight? Is it you know what what's it gonna be? But now thinking, you know, I want to model some better behaviors. And so, you know, going and buying things at the grocery store and making a meal together. And and I've I've really tried, we we watch a ton of, you know, like with meals in front of the TV and we'll watch a show, but then that'll sort of divide us. So I've been more intentional about let's sit at the table, let's all have conversations together. Yeah, yeah. That part's been good.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Yeah, that's one of the things that we did actually when I was still married, and that I was important to me and we've continued to do. I will tell you, like, you know, some of the painful, painful things of the transition was, you know, when we were having dinner at the table, because I stayed in the house, um, was there was an empty chair at the table. You know, and that and my and it probably took me, you know, again after a year, I was like, okay, this is painful for the uh for the kids and I to look over and like there's not a there's the person that sat in that chair is not here.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

Yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

And so you know what I did? I was like, one day I was like, we're getting a new dining room table and chairs. I'm like, we're getting a new dining room, table, and chairs for the, you know, and just that subtle shift, right? Was like, man, it was like it empowered all of us. It was like we're move, we're moving forward, right? We're growing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Um it's a great decision, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:16

I was like, why did I not think of that? But I wasn't emotionally prepared for that, right? I wasn't aware of to look around and go, this is this is not good, you know, this is impacting us in a neck uh, you know, in a negative way.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

We changed the seating around the dining room table. And man, that was monumental.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Yeah, I think that's fantastic. I one thing that just makes me think about right now that my house, it's got their stuff in it, but it does, it doesn't, you know, there's no pictures on the walls. It's very much the divorced dad's place that you know, like but being more intentional about because I think if they were bringing their friends over, their mom's feels like a home, and my feels like a dormitory, and then making changes where they feel even more at home when they come come over here. I think that's that's a good step.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Yeah, and that was one of the things. I mean, the house I've got is way too big for myself and the four kids and everything. It was too big for us even as a family. But yeah, you know, I you know, and everybody was like, Oh, you're gonna sell the home, you're gonna move it. I'm like, actually, no. I was like, not anytime soon. I was like, they've been through enough change. Right. I I just I'm just gonna stay here, you know, and if it's a financial burden, I'm gonna bear that because I don't want more, I don't want them to have two new homes right now. I just wanted to, I just wanted the familiarity of the home that they all grew up in to stay consistent. And I was blessed to be able to do that. So that's been that's been comforting, you know, is to to have that that consistency there.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Yeah. Brandon, you mentioned a girlfriend. How have the kids have they accepted the new relationship? How has that worked into their lives too?

SPEAKER_00 39:58

Yeah, you know, and as you know, that is a touchy serious, and so it is, you know, uh, especially that I think eat the ages of each child and their personality is very unique. You know, my two girls uh immediately latch on to the my girlfriend into when I started dating her. You know, they're excited, they're happy. That's great. The boys have a total different mindset, you know. Um, one of my boys, you know, uh is very loyal to his mom and feels, you know, is struggles with it. Yeah, my other, my oldest, he, you know, he started out a little gruff about it, but you know, then he's come around and has a great relationship with her. You know, one of the things, and I read this in the book about, you know, being a single dad and dating, um, um, is that you know, it's easy for it was easy for me to launch a relationship with someone that I was interested in to date someone. I say easy, that's relative. I it, you know, it was easy emotionally for me to attach to someone and to grow that relationship, yeah, uh, or to see if that rocket is capable of launching. But what the book helped me understand was that each of my children will launch their own rockets with that person, and that for me to impose what I want them to feel about this person and/or the dynamics of the relationship, I really don't have much say in that. That they're gonna launch a relationship rocket with my girlfriend on their own terms. You know, and I've witnessed that with each one of my children. They all have launched rockets at different times and in different ways.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Um, and and it's not, and my job is not to judge that, you know, is yes to support it, to talk to them, to communicate with them about their feelings, um, but just let organically try to create an environment where that or that relationship can evolve.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

That's good. It goes it goes back to giving yourself and uh the family grace that instead of imposing time frames and thinking this is what has to happen now, to really just this is a great time to practice that grace and letting go and saying it'll happen as it happens and letting it unfold.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Yeah, you know, and then create and and and uh can you know and letting my the kids know that hey, this is not your mom, this will never be your mom. Your mom's always gonna be your mom, right? You know, that this is not that type of relationship, you know. Your your expectations, you don't have to don't have those expect you don't have to act like that, yeah, right, you know, and so encouraging them and keeping them confident because they've got a lot, it's a lot for a child to get their head around and a lot of emotions around that.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Right. I've been thinking recently about the role of gratitude, that not wanting to feel unhappy with the way things have gone or or sadness for the family, but that replacing it with gratitude and thinking about the the life that they had when they were little that was so good, but that it you know, being grateful for that, but also grateful for where we've come in the past couple of years and for all the progress that's been made and for the future that that's you know, I've been trying to focus my thoughts there instead of on anything else. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

I wanted to get your thoughts on Yeah, I mean, so I was working with um one of my widow clients that uh her husband had passed away while I was going through the separation and divorce. We were we were close as a couple uh as I was close with this couple at to for years anyways, decades. And the uh, you know, as he was sick and going there, and I was there as their not only their friend, but their financial advisor. Uh and then he passed away and and then you know, I was going through my divorce as as she was, you know, entering widowhood. And And you know, she had a a friend of hers that had been through widowhood that gave her some advice, and it hit me so uh powerfully that I I've I've kept it as a mantra or as as a comfort is is this woman told her is you know you had a great life before him, you had a great life with him, and you're gonna have a great life after him. And you know, and and I was able to relate to that because you know, I did have a great life before I was married. I did have a great life while I was married, and you know, the divorce wants to taint that and and and and you know, and that's a lie. You know, yes, there was difficult times, obviously things didn't work, but there was a lot of great moments, you know, especially with the kids and being a family, right? So I don't want to discount that greatness, you know, and and because of that, I know there's gonna be great times in the future, and I'm far enough past the divorce to know that yeah, that greatness is already occurring, right? And there's a sense of pride in our family that this is, you know, we're doing great things in spite of having a non-traditional family.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Right. I love that idea because it looks back and it sees the good in every stage that that you've been a part of, and it doesn't take it away just because there is this divorce that happened at one point along the way.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

You know, and talking about the kids, you know, the kids don't want to talk about memories back when, you know, we were married and stuff like that. Uh and they used to be very difficult for me to talk about because they hurt, you know, they were like little daggers, you know, in in my heart of longing for what was lost. Um, and you know, over time, you know, it's important for the kids still to hear me celebrate those moments and to not let that divorce taint that the good of all those memories of what happened and what happened then, right? Because that that's not fair to them. Right. And it's not fair to myself, you know.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Right, right. Well, Brendan, I've enjoyed so much getting to talk to you and appreciate all your thoughts on this. Thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Always love talking with you.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

If this episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. And share it with someone else who you think it might help. Leave a review if you're feeling generous, and if you have questions or topics you'd like me to explore in future episodes, reach out at Gabe at more clientsmorefun.com. I'm figuring this out right alongside you. New episodes of Starting Over at 50 drop every other week. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube, wherever you listen. Before I go, I need to thank two people who make this podcast possible. My brother Paul, who's my business partner, and the reason I get to work daily with financial advisors, which led directly to this podcast's existing, and his wife Otsco, who does the incredible job of editing each episode. I couldn't do this without them. I'm Gabe McManus, and I'll see you in two weeks. Until then, take care of yourself, show up for your kids, and remember we're figuring this out together.