Vulnerability & Resilience: Emma's Hair Loss Journey

In this deeply personal episode of the Skincredible Podcast, board-certified dermatologist Dr. Lisa Swanson sits down with longtime patient Emma to share her remarkable journey living with alopecia areata, an autoimmune condition that causes hair loss.

From discovering her first bald patch in middle school to navigating unkind comments, self-confidence, shaving her head, and eventually finding hope through emerging hair loss treatments, Emma opens up about the emotional reality behind living with autoimmune hair loss. Together, she and Dr. Swanson discuss the evolution of alopecia areata treatment, including steroid injections, contact immunotherapy, and the early days of JAK inhibitors—years before they became FDA-approved for alopecia.

This conversation goes far beyond hair. It's about resilience, vulnerability, confidence, and the life-changing impact of being truly heard by your medical providers.

If you are living with alopecia areata, supporting someone with hair loss, or looking for the latest advances in dermatology, this inspiring conversation is for you. It offers hope, practical insights, and a firsthand look at how far treatment has come, not to mention why the journey is about so much more than hair.

Keywords: hair loss, alopecia areata, autoimmune hair loss, hair loss treatment, dermatologist, JAK inhibitors, hair regrowth, patchy hair loss, scalp hair loss, FDA-approved alopecia treatment, dermatology podcast, autoimmune disease, confidence after hair loss, women's hair loss, teen hair loss, Xeljanz, Olumiant, Rinvoq, Intralesional Steroids, Contact Sensitizers, dermatology

Links

NAAF https://www.naaf.org/alopecia-areata 

Chapters

00:00 Intro and Welcome: Emma

01:55 Emma’s Alopecia Journey Diagnosis and Treatments

06:00 Emma’s Brother’s Alopecia

08:00 Growing in Confidence

10:00 Covering Up Hair Loss, Being Self-Conscious 

12:00 Starting Xeljanz

15:00 Boys Making Comments About Emma’s Hair

18:00 Emma’s Thoughts on Dating in High School

20:00 Emma’s Quick Response to Xeljanz (Photos)

22:00 Changes Emma Observed Growing Hair

23:56 Xeljanz, Olumiant, Litfulo, Rainbow

25:22 Noticing New Hair Loss Spots

26:20 Alopecia in College Essay

28:09 Obstacles Are the Path

29:00 Words of Wisdom

31:00 Youth Mentoring, Vulnerability, Connection

33:00 Thanks and Goodbye

The information shared on this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for personalized medical advice. Always consult your  physician regarding your health.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to Skin Credible, where we tell you what you should know about your skin and how to glow. Because your skin's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Hello everyone, and welcome to another wonderful episode of the Skin Credible Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Lisa Swanson, and I'm here today with someone I've known a long time. Somebody very special had a big impact on me earlier in my career. And I want to introduce everybody to Emma. Emma, I know you, but go ahead and introduce yourself to the audience.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yes. Hi, everybody. I'm so excited to be here. Like Dr. Swanson said, I have known her for so long. She has been with me through my entire alopecia journey. But I'm Emma. I'm from Denver, Colorado. Originally went to school at the University of Kansas, and now I live in Chicago.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

I love it so much. So yes, back when I was practicing in Colorado, I met you. You came in with your dad. You were 16 years old. And now you are 23. Yes. And so it's been seven years. I don't like to acknowledge that that was that I'm seven years older.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

And you're like, let's brush over it.

unknown 1:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Right. Yeah. But you were a little 16-year-old junior in high school. And you guys came in because you were struggling with alopecia areata and you had headed for a fair amount of time even before we first met. Yes. So tell me about when you started noticing the alopecia areeata, what your family thought about it, kind of that initial part of the journey. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Well, I have to say, so I feel like my journey with alopecia kind of started before I even got it myself. My little brother Sawyer, he was diagnosed with alopecia in when he was in first grade. So I think I was in like third or fourth grade at the time. Um, but for my family, that was definitely our first kind of initial interaction with alopecia was him. He lost his hair pretty severely, like all throughout his elementary, middle school experience. He's bald now, he's rocking it, he loves it. So we were super familiar, obviously, with it already, just because of Sawyer. But I actually like really remember it sticks out in my mind so vividly, just because the first day that I ever kind of even had any realization that I might have alopecia, it was not even something that I had noticed. So I played soccer growing up and I was at a soccer practice, and a teammate of mine came up to me and was like, Emma, did you like shave the back of your head? And I was like, No, I have no idea what you're talking about. Obviously, I did not know what she was talking about. Um but I remember like going home that night and I was like talking to my parents about it. My dad was like, Well, you know, Sawyer has alopecia, like you might have alopecia. Um, and after that, like we went to my first doctor and he diagnosed me with it. So kind of started the whole journey in sixth grade there.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

And then they got you started on some treatment. By the time you met me, you had tried, you had tried a fair number of things. Yes. What were those initial initial treatments like for you?

SPEAKER_02 3:30

So um I remember like throughout middle school, I think the three big ones, and again, like at the time, there really wasn't much available. Um, I mean, obviously, you know that, and especially like being a kid, I think that the stuff that we were able to do was kind of limited. But injections were a big one. I kind of started off doing injections. I've done those for years and years and years. And then the other two big ones that I feel like both me and Sawyer did, we tried to do like light therapies. So I remember my dad, like at night, would kind of like sit and hold this light over our heads while we watched like Modern Family or something. Um, and then we did that. And then we also, there was some sort of like solution that you would put on your head. Um, it was like a really strong thing that it was intended to cause like an allergic reaction. Um, yes. And so that one was definitely both me and Sora's least favorite because if you even did just like a little too much, our heads would like blister. And yeah, that one was super tough, but those were the like first big three I feel like that we tried for me kind of throughout middle school.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

And for the listener, those are what we call contact sensitizers. And I was like, I don't know what they're called. And there are three of them there's scoric acid, DNCB, and DPCP, and they work by basically causing a rash. So you make your skin allergic to it, and so the immune system comes to check out the contact sensitizer and hopefully leaves your hair follicles alone, so then your hair can grow. But a rash is a necessary part of the treatment and can be very unpleasant.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Can be very unpleasant, yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Now, having a brother with allopiciata, that probably took a little bit of this, well, maybe it didn't. Did it take the sting out of that diagnosis because you had seen Sawyer with it, or was it the opposite and you were like, oh no way, I've seen Sawyer go through this. I don't want this for me.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Yeah, I mean, I think it was probably a fair mix of both. Um, I remember, like, you know, growing up with watching Sora go through that, obviously him having it in first grade. Uh I remember him coming home like some days after school and telling us the things that kids and even like adults in grocery stores would say to him. And so I think that kind of like initial fear was definitely very prominent for me. Just because like you watch your little brother go through something and you see how much it's hurt him. Um, and I think that that definitely like scared me a bit. But I also think that for him, like eventually he, you know, I've always, and we'll obviously get to this, but I've like tried all the medicines and um done all the things. And I think that he just being, you know, a guy kind of got to a point and was like, I don't really care. Like it's just my hair. And I think for girls, it's so different. Hair is just such a big part of our lives and such a big part of um, you know, a girl's like girlhood growing up. So I think for me it was definitely a little bit of, I would say like a mix of things, but it was good also to have, you know, some form of education already about it. Um, just because I know like there's a lot of people out there still who have no idea what alopecia is. So kind of having that um in my back pocket and having my parents already with that understanding of everything was super helpful.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

And being two or three years older than Sawyer, do you recall before you were diagnosed with alopecia, did you ever have moments where you were the big sister that had to stand up for your little brother?

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Yeah, I mean, I think that there's like two vivid memories that I have of things that he told me about. I don't think that I was ever like personally with him when anybody said anything super crazy. Um, but I remember my my mom specifically had definitely gone into like mom mode a lot of times, especially with like fellow, even adults that were close to us that, you know, again, people are just uneducated about it and see something and say something, you know, out of being uncomfortable that is just crazy. And so I never really remember having to like step in and fight the battle for him, but I remember like hearing about it and my mom being the one definitely to like be super, super protective over him for sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

And when you developed LP chariata, did you experience any of those comments and you maybe you were better prepared to handle them because of seeing what your brother went through?

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Yeah, I mean, I think that that was huge, seeing him and how he was able to kind of like it's because when you get it at first, it's obviously a very scary thing. And like I think in middle school, I was going through it a bit just because you're already going through so much in middle school. I think that like when people would say things, my initial reaction was just completely freeze and like make something up, and just I completely avoided the topic. Like, I didn't even tell my friends about it really, like until eighth grade, and I'd had it for three years at that point. But in high school, definitely, I think I obviously grew more confident with it and had that understanding of like, you know, there are people, not that it's an excuse, but there are people that are gonna say crazy things most of the time because they just have no idea what's going on and they get uncomfortable and they say weird things. A few times people said like outlandish things to me that I still look back on and I'm like, what prompted that? But I definitely like grew into being able to stand up for myself and just do it in like a respectful educational way, which was yeah, hard but necessary, I feel like.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Yeah. There are a couple really great, and you were probably too old at the time that your LPC came on for this to be helpful, but just for the audience, there are a couple really great books that I think are really nice for little kids dealing with alopeciariata, for their family, and perhaps for their friends and classmates. There's one really great one that says my hair went on vacation. Um, I love that. Really cute.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

I should have told people that. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Yeah. And so when you were going through this in middle school and early high school, did you just kind of rock it, whatever your hair looked like at that stage? Did you wear hats? Did you wear wigs? What did you do to handle it?

SPEAKER_02 9:49

So uh middle school and early high school, like the first two years of high school, spots were kind of coming and going. The injections would kind of work sometimes. And so it was always like kind of a constant battle of just like feeling the need to cover it up all the time. I personally just had my hair as is, but it was kind of horrible feeling. And I there were even like little things where I remember we would switch spots in class and I would be scared that I was gonna be sat in the front because then I was gonna be have have to be so aware of like making sure that my spots were covered, like little things like that. Um, so I know that a lot of people do wear hats and wear wigs and even like toppers. And I think that um I honestly just like didn't really like even consider that at the time. But I think that that would have been like helpful. Yeah, for a while it was just like, you know, that constant sensation of like, oh my God, don't let anybody see. Like I have spots, but I can still look normal as long as I cover it the right way, type of thing. But then the end of my sophomore year, um, I had lost about like 80 to 90 percent of my hair. So it was pretty much all gone. Um, and at that point, I was just like, I am so over this. I'm so over that like constant feeling of just like having to pretend to, you know, like be something that I'm not and like cover things up. And so that was when end of sophomore year that I just decided to shave off the rest of my hair because I was like, I can't do this anymore.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

And that is the moment I met you. Yeah, yes, that's when our paths crossed. Yes, yes. The first time we met, you had a pretty much shaved head. It had just started like the areas that were growing had just started to grow out a little bit. I still remember, yeah, you and your dad just kind of shared that you had just hadn't had enough. It had gotten to a point where it was just like you were you were just at your breaking point with it, and it was easier just to kind of shave it and deal with that rather than trying to hide in disguise and everything. At that visit, I had told you guys about some recent, you know, case reports and stuff in the literature about a medicine called Zell Jans, which is a oral jack inhibitor, a pill jack inhibitor. And we made the decision to start that that day. And do you recall what that was like? Did you have hope for it? Was it exciting? Or were you also like, geez Louise lady, I've tried everything, and like now you think you have something that's going to help me? Were you like, I'll believe it when I see it, or were you like, oh my gosh, I think maybe this this is the thing?

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Yeah, I mean, I think that I remember being so excited because you, I feel like were the first doctor that I had worked with that actually really like took the time to understand like me, what I had been through, my story, and like really explained to me the option of like what we could do. That made me feel like seen and it made me feel heard. And I just feel like, again, there was such a lack of, you know, growing up resources and treatments at the time. And so hearing that like there were studies of people, other people that had my same disease, that I was like, you know, because also growing up, it's like you don't meet really other people with alopecia. Like, obviously, I had my brother, but outside of that, it was like nobody else in my whole city like had I ever seen that was 15 and bold. And so you being like, there's data, there's other people that have seen success from this. I was like, heck yes, let's do this. And I think it also kind of felt different because it was like an oral medication versus everything that I had done previously was mostly just like topical. So that like just felt like a huge difference to me, like night and day. So I was thrilled to hear that. I was so excited.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

And do you remember, did you or your parents have trouble kind of deciding to do it? Or was like everything on board like right from the start?

SPEAKER_02 13:46

Yeah, I mean, I think they've always been so supportive of whatever I wanted to do. And like when I what when I told them I was like, I want to shave my head, my dad was like, all right, I've got, you know, the razor. Like, I'm here to do this with you. So I think that, you know, as soon as we kind of found out about that, and I was like, oh my God, yes, I want to do this. They were like, absolutely no questions asked. Like, we're gonna make this happen for you, whatever it takes. I mean, obviously, I think like watching your kid go through that, especially through those like middle school years, is I can't imagine. Like watching it from a parent perspective is hard. So I think they were just like so excited to see me, you know, excited. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Middle school is tough. Tough. I mean, like high school isn't a breeze, but like middle school is tough.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Even like without Alabisha, I'm like, I don't know how kids get through middle school. It's so hard. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yes, yes. Um, well, and it is it is so wonderful. I, you know, because of knowing you, I've known your parents as well for a long, long time. And um, they have always been just so supportive and wonderful and and kind of let you guide your own ship. Yeah, you know, like yeah, they were your cheerleaders, you know, like however you want to handle this, Emma. Like, we're here to support you and fight the insurance for you.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

And the insurance, yes. Many phone calls, many phone calls. But yes, they've always been um they they definitely were like wanted to provide the resources to me. And but I think that it was also for them, like, again, to your point, it was like my decision how to go about things. And I remember there were even a few times when like there was one specific time that there were a few boys at my school who were like making comments about my hair. And I told my mom, I was like, I she because she was like, I'm gonna call the school, like I'm gonna get and I was like, I need to do this, like I need to, you know, take care of this myself. And now looking back, it's like, well, they're 15-year-old boys, like of course they're gonna say silly things again. They didn't know what was going on. Um, but like I think for me being able to like stand up for myself and talk to them myself and have my parents kind of like backing me and cheering me, I couldn't have done it without them. So they've truly been so supportive throughout the entire journey.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

I love that. And how did that talk go with those 15-year-old boys? I think they felt really bad. I know. I know you know, that's a good point. I think like it, you know, people might say stuff, but if you turn around and say, Hey, you know, you're hurting my feelings. I think I I have alopiciariata, it it's something I can't control. Exactly. And, you know, the more you talk about it, the worse I feel. I I think when they're confronted with that, they're like, oh my gosh, we think that's a good thing. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

And it's like, I mean, I think at the time, oh my God, I think it's the scariest thing I've ever had to do. Like, I remember like taking these voice and being like, I need to talk to like you, you, and you. And I'm like shaking, my voice is cracking, but I was like, you have to do this. Again, it was like they were just talking, like as friends, just saying stupid things about like, you know, something that they had no idea about. But as soon as I said, listen, can't control this, and I there's nothing I can do about it. And so you kind of just need to accept it. They were like, oh my God, Emma, like, we are so sorry, we feel so bad. And I think that was definitely like when I had originally talked to my mom about talking to them. I kind of felt like it's something I needed to do because there are always going to be people, whether it's like something physical or whether it's something that they can't control or can't control. It's like that's just a good learning lesson to, you know, not really speak before you have more of a sense of what's going on, just because there's a lot of things people are going through that you don't know about. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

And we had a guest on one of my patients with Vitaligo, and she and her parents were talking about how, you know, they had to talk with her about uh some people might look at you and and it's not necessarily out of meanness. Sometimes sometimes they're curious, sometimes they're just taking it in, sometimes they're just trying to, you know, kind of figure out in their own head what's going on. Right. But being prepared for those looks and trying not to let it affect you as much as possible is an important coping mechanism.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Totally. And I think now, especially like looking back, it's just, yeah, that's so much of it is that again, it's like I have alopecia and I was probably one of very few people in my community that had it. And so for a lot of people, it was their first time, you know, like seeing somebody lose their hair and seeing a teenager that was bald. And so it's like most of the time it's just curiosity or it's just confusion. I feel like my favorite thing was to kind of be able to educate people because it's like now you know, and now in the future, if you see somebody, you've gone through it, like you've already known somebody with it.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

And I know when we met, you were you were 16 and we got you on Zelda's and we're gonna talk about it. But prior to that, you know, you're in high school, and a lot of people start to date in high school or start to have crushes. Was that a part of your life, or did the alopecia areata prevent some of that?

SPEAKER_02 18:58

Yeah, I mean, I think that obviously when we met, I had freshly shaven my head. Boys definitely were not on my mind. I mean, I I think that shaving my head, it's so weird because you would think the opposite, but I think it made me so confident just because I was like, this is me. Like, I'm not hiding anything, I'm just bald. And at the same time, though, it's like, you know, you are bald, and these are 16, 15, 16-year-old boys. Like, it's like this isn't really something that we're doing right now, I guess. And so I definitely did not start dating until like later in high school. It's not like it was that I didn't, you know, think that I wasn't like good enough or think that I could put myself out there. It was just like truly, I was in this moment of like, I'm so free for the first time in my life. Like I'm so liberated. And so I think it just wasn't even on my mind at the time to even, yeah, have a crush or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

You know, I love that. And it probably made your dad happy that you didn't mean.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Yeah, if you ask him, he'll be like, thank God, she was bald.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Uh and so we we started you on Zell Jans, and this was back in the day before we had any jack inhibitors officially approved in the alopecia areata space. We didn't even have any jack inhibitors approved in the dermatology space. We were using cell jans off label. It was a rheumatoid arthritis drug. But initially, um, your guys' insurance covered it, and there was also like a support program through the company that manufactures cell jans. And so we got you on the therapy, and Emma, you grew hair like nobody's blessed. Like so fast. Yes, so fast. Like I show in lectures I give, I show your before pictures and then your three-month follow-up. And you you were like a chia pet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

It was like it was amazing. I had, oh my God, I grew hair so fast. Cause I remember even looking back, I'm like, I'll look at pictures from high school, and I remember shaving my head in May. Like it was the first day of summer in May that I did it. And then by like, I mean, I remember we had like homecoming in October, and I had hair, and I was like, this was so fast. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Oh my God. And you know, when your brother saw that, did that interest him? Was he like?

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Yeah, but like Yeah. I think that again, he's just kind of like, whatever. Like he doesn't even want to deal to him, it's more of a hassle to take a medication. Like he literally is just like, I don't care. And so he probably was like, good for you. That's cool. Like, I love that. But I think he was just like, whatever, I don't really want to deal with it.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

And I mean, you had such wonderful coping mechanisms going through all of this and and really handled it all very gracefully. But once your hair did regrow, what changes did you notice in yourself? What changes did you notice in maybe your freedom to play soccer and not? Worry about the way it looks, be out on a rainy day or in the wind and not worry about the way it looks. Maybe consider dating a boy. Like what changes did you observe in yourself?

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Yeah, I mean, all of those, I think. Um, I think that again, I experienced the pre-bald for me was like way more scary than actually being bald was because being bald, it was just like, you know, people said stupid things, but it was like whatever. Like it just is kind of off your shoulder, like here I am. But I think starting to grow hair again for me and having like a full head of hair that I had not had in, oh my God, like five years. I kind of finally really felt feminine. And I finally really felt like, you know, like really just like beautiful. And I felt beautiful, bald, but like I think bald was so much more like liberating for me. And I think that completely made me who I am today. Like I'm so confident now and I'm so vulnerable now with people, but I think that kind of growing hair back, it was like, wow, like I really don't even have to worry about this. I can go outside, I can do whatever I want. And I feel like like a girly girl. And I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

I love that. I love I love you saying you felt feminine when the hair I was treating this uh cute little seven-year-old, and I asked her, she regrew her hair, and and everything was going so, so well. And I said, you know, how do you feel? And she said, pretty. Oh, yeah, it's you're like, I'm so happy. I know. Yes, I know. Oh my gosh. And then being on the cell gens, you were on cell gens for a while, and it continued to work really well. And then once we started to get some Jack inhibitors approved for LP sheriata, your insurance, I think appropriately so, said, Hey, would you try one of these that is that is FDA approved? And so you've been through the gambit. We switched you from the Zell Jans to Illuminant, uh, and from Illuminant to Litfulo, and most recently from Litfulo to Rinvogue. Yes. And while all of them have worked to some degree, you've never backslid back to where we were before. There have been differences and you have had moments where you've had some alopiciariata activity. What are your thoughts about, you know, each of the medicines, your experience? Um, was it a roller coaster, you know, as you went through all of these things?

SPEAKER_02 24:33

I mean, yes, a roller coaster is a fantastic way to describe it. I think that even still, I, you know, it again to your point, I've never backslid to where I was, but alopecia has never gone away for me. Um so I would say each of the medications to kind of back what you said, they would work to a certain extent. Fully, like my hair would be, you know, pretty much like regrown. And then maybe I would start getting some spots again. And maybe that's like when we would switch. I think that for the most part, like I've had pretty positive experiences with all of the medications that I've taken. I've never really had any um negative side effects like from any of them. But it's definitely a roller coaster because I think that it's always, at least for now, something that's gonna be a part of who I am. Um and I will still like I have a spot or two right now. And it's always just something that um, you know, like when you start to notice a little bit of hair loss, my initial gut reaction is like, oh my God, like I I'll call my dad and I'm like, I'm going bells again. And he's like, you need to chill. You are not. Like he's like, you're on medication, you're fine. And I'm like, okay, you're right. It's just something that I've kind of really accepted is just a part of me, and that maybe one day there will be a medication that for me works great and it fully cures me. And I'm like, okay, the perfect is taken care of. But I continue to get spots, continue to, you know, explore what's going on. And it's just very educational, too, I think. Uh, as the years have gone on, as we've seen, there's been so many more drugs approved, which is crazy how much it's changed. But yeah, I've I've pretty much liked all of the medications that I've been on, never really experienced anything too negative with them.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

And you mentioned that you went to the University of Kansas. Did you talk about this experience in your college application essay? I did. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Um, I think that when you're going to college, obviously, I think that, you know, the college application essay is definitely this experience has been by far like the most formative experience in my life. So I think like me as a person and understanding, you know, like who I've grown to be and the things that, you know, have shaped me, this is the one that I'm like, this is it. This is me at my core. So yes, definitely felt the need to talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

And and to that point, like resiliency I think is is a big deal. And I think sometimes you're born resilient, and sometimes there are experiences that forge resiliency. And I think that a journey like yours can be one of those experiences. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 27:15

I mean, I agree with you. I think that resilience for me, definitely the highs and lows that come with alopecia, as you know, and as anybody else with it knows, it's something that can be super unpredictable. And it's kind of something that can also make you feel helpless at times, just because even if you're doing everything, you know, textbook correctly, you might still lose hair. And so I think that in other parts of my life now, I just find myself to be a pretty resilient person in terms of like, you know, one little bad thing is not gonna like sway me. And so I think that there have been things, even like moving to Chicago, I was like, all right, well, we're doing this, you know, gotta do this on my own, have to get a job, have to find, you know, a house, all of these things. And it's like things can be tough in life, but having that ability to kind of navigate those highs and lows has been definitely like super game-changing for me in my life.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Yeah, one of my favorite quotes um says, obstacles do not block the path. Obstacles are the path. Yes, totally.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

I agree, I agree. Bald spots are the path. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Now we've got our clip. Bald spots are the you know where I got that quote from. You probably don't.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

No, where is it from? A show called Bluey. Oh, Bluey. Oh my gosh. Yes. The kids I used to nanny watch that all the time. So, yes, I'm familiar. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

My gosh, it's my favorite show. And um, Bandit says that to the girls, like they're going through something. And he's like, girls, obstacles do not block your path, obstacles are your path.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Bandit knew what he was saying. Thank you, Bandit. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

No. No, what words of wisdom, if you were a camp counselor at a camp for teenagers and middle schoolers with alopecia areiada, what words of wisdom would you pass on from your experience?

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Oh, good question. Um, I think that for me, the biggest thing that I have taken away from this whole experience is vulnerability is absolutely so essential to confidence and to connection. Like I think that being able to, because like I said earlier, it took me a long time to even be able to speak with my friends about what I was going through, just because it was so such a hard thing for me to talk about for so long. Um, but I kind of found that when I was really able to get vulnerable with people and let them into, you know, my life and what was going on with me, the connection that it formed and the way that people just, you know, kind of crave that. Like I think that it's it's something that people don't find every day. Um, and when you give somebody else a place to be vulnerable as well, I think that definitely, you know, human connection, we all crave it. And I think that's a big, a big thing that um is so important with this disease. And I also think that um being able to educate people is huge. And I think that obviously every day in life, there's gonna be people that say crazy things about things they don't know about, and being able to kind of be confident in yourself and say, like, I have this disease because I meant to be here to educate you is great. And I think that those two big things, like, um, yeah, definitely two of the biggest takeaways that I've had from this whole journey. Have you ever thought about going into medicine? Oh my gosh, I really have, honestly, after all of this, I didn't study it, but um, I think that there's there, I mean, there's so many cool platforms now too. I um I I don't know if I've told you this actually, but I do youth mentoring for the National Alopecia Ariata Foundation. Oh my gosh, I didn't know. Yes, so I've been involved with them for maybe a little over a year now. Um, but there's definitely like a lot of things out there that I think would be so cool to pursue, even just like connecting patients with doctors or patients with resources that are not necessarily medicine focused, but like air in the space.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Well, and real kudos to you, Emma. Like you are mature beyond your years, I think, because it took me, it took me a couple more decades to realize the the power and vulnerability. Yeah. And I'm so impressed that you bring that up. I feel like that is, you know, when I'm giving presentations, I'm quite vulnerable and I get positive feedback, but it took me years to realize that that's what I was doing. Like I don't think I ever understood that that's what I was doing. And um, it's amazing that you already have that figured out.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Yeah. I just think that, you know, when you go through something for so long trying to kind of, I mean, we all do it, right? We all put up fronts in our lives and we all like, you know, try to be pe whether it's a new social, social situation or a new job or whatever it is. But I've kind of found like now going through my life, um, kind of following this, like every job I walk into when I went to college, when I, you know, moved to a new city, I'm just like, I'm gonna be vulnerable in myself from day one. And it really, really makes connection so much easier with people.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

So I love that. I love that. Well, speaking of connection, this has been wonderful with you. Yeah, and it has been amazing to kind of watch you grow up and go through all of this. I love you. You inspire me, and you know, through that, I hope I'm able to inspire some of my patients because of the experience that we kind of went through together.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Yeah, we did go through it together. I was gonna say, I feel like I need to thank you because you have been there literally since I mean, the entire time. And we obviously are still doing this together. So um, yeah, it's been it's been us against the world. But yes, this has been amazing. I'm so happy that you're doing this podcast. This is awesome.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Uh, well, thank you so much, Emma. I know you are busy living your fun young life in Chicago, and I appreciate you taking the time to come talk to your old dermatologist anytime.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Anytime, literally anytime.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Thank you so much, Emma. Thank you, listeners. Thank you, viewers. Please keep tuning in to episodes of the Skin Credible Podcast. We've got so much great stuff coming your way. Please like and subscribe and keep listening. Thanks, everybody. Thanks.